213 replies to this topic

[TheSloppySniper]

I think more new mechs would solve the problem, when there are more mechs you can seperate them by classes like assault, recon etc and new players get to choose the class instead of mech (each class has default basic mechs) and please make it easy to get new mechs without paying for them XD.

[LaurenEmily]

This is totally wrong.The first thing i liked in Hawken is CRT!Yes it looks like microwave but look at the Mechwarrior they are all look alike.Today new players are spoiled, i advanced myself on old system and yes its hard,but there is no greater reward when you reach new level or buy new internal or weapon.So Noob`s stop being litlle girls and play like man!

He knows what's up.

[JeffMagnum]

make 3 slightly different freds that you can choose from, each with a different playstyle)

 

This might be a good idea, but not exactly in the way you're describing. I'd give players a choice of three mechs, each of which is in a different weight class. Berserker/Assault/Brawler seem like the best options for a selection of easy-to-play mechs, but Scout/Sharpshooter/Grenadier (or maybe Rocketeer, despite it being pretty weak) would be good if you're going for a sampling of the different playstyles available. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 25 March 2015 - 11:42 PM.

[Dorro]

I don't think the Fred should be removed, and giving new players the assault instead isn't really a solution, as they're not different by a wide enough margin to make a difference for a new player. A veteran can pick out the subtle nuances between the mech, but a handful of HP and a bit of extra speed isn't going to make a world of difference for a fresh pilot still learning to manage his dodge clock.

 

Especially when you consider that both mechs use the same weapon loadout. So you're telling a recruit, "Hey we're trading you up... Its the same thing, but prettier! You don't look like a TV on legs anymore!"

 

The emphasis should not be on fixing the CRT, it should be on getting the new players out of the CRT as fast as possible, so that they can learn the game and then go play the mech they really want to play. Trying to cherry-pick the mechs or give them internals or items isn't going to help them vs the veteran old-guard Hawken players that were around before the Capnjosh administration, that's a population issue. As long as the majority of the playerbase is veteran oldschoolers, the new kids on the block will get smacked around no matter what you give them.

Instead of trying to swap out the CRT, you should be trying to incentivize new players into earning their way out of it. Steam-beta era Hawken struggled a lot with economy and never found a happy place. If you want a short, immediate, noob friendly solution, the answer should not be to chuck the CRT or try to fix it, (Because nothing is wrong with it, and Xacius used to curbstomp whole rooms with the Fred to prove it) You should tweak the early pilot levels to grant more bonus cash on level-up, so that a new player can buy their way into the mech they really want with just a few hours of gameplay.

That was one of Hawken's old problems. CRT was good. CRT was competitive, good pilots could wreck with Fred, but Adhesive never found the sweet spot and when the game went to steam there was a massive economic fallout.

I'm not personally against the Free-to-play and cash shop models, I was a huge customer and bought the limited time only bundles when they came up and I loved to support the game. I think the old guard just never figured out what they should have been doing to monetize the game- cosmetic parts and paint were irrationally expensive to the point where you didn't feel good about making impulse buys.

There needs to be a line in terms of money here, the problem was never Fred, it was how you got out of Fred. Don't change Fred, just double or triple the credits earned in lower level brackets so they can buy their way out. and spend money on the things that they really want.

The golden ideal in the Hawken economy should be that you buy mechs with the in game currency, and then splurge real cash on the aesthetics, but the way the credit/cash prices were tuned, this didn't work. It ended up being more attractive to buy the mechs at ten bucks each, and then spend the credits on the internals and items. When you make the preferable economic model buying new mechs with cash instead of earning them through credits, you start getting that unsavory reputation for pay-2-win that can sink a free-to-play game.

 

So don't 'fix' Fred, just make new players rich. Tweak the early-game level up earnings to give new players more money to spend to get into the mechs they really want, and lower cash shop prices on aesthetic items so that players are more susceptible to impulse buys.

 

I know its not exactly on-topic to talk about the cash shop here, but not getting the money right was how the game went over to the Capnjosh administration in the first place.

[KanaboMelkan]

o7

 

I think the CRT should still be the starter. Granted, it's not outstanding in any way, but that's the idea I got from it. It's average across almost any metric you measure it.

Granted, internals can make or break the mech. Starting them off with an Air Compressor, Deflectors, and Composite Armor would be my suggested setup though.

 

For the AC, I'd suggest setting it up so it's level locked (but reduce the level required to unlock), so that they see what the AC is capable of and are able to experiment. 

 

Deflectors would subtract 20% of damage taken overall, and thus add more TTK, and encourage them to get used to dodging. A lot of the best players I've seen have been able to almost instinctively know when their dodge was up, and which direction to dodge. Dodging saves lives. 

 

Composite Armor would ease the TTK a bit for them every time they die, which would allow them to learn a bit more from each life than they would normally. Granted, I use CA on my Brawler, but that's because I'm a fuzzy bunny and I love me the attention I can receive with it.

 

As far as the rest of it goes, you could implement a "test drive" mode in the garage. Then people can try the different mechs before they buy and possibly regret their purchase. **cough cough Predator cough cough**

You could also add the Elite parts to the Customization tab even if locked, and leave them rank locked like they are now. That would allow people to see what kinds of badass their mech will become when they unlock the full set. Not to mention it will also allow people to see what exactly an Elite CR-T looks like before they run into the wrong side of one in game. 

 

Elite parts are an equal mix of bullseye, warning label, and vanity all rolled into one. That would allow new players to determine more accurately what an enemy's likely capable of.

 

Also, keep in mind that I'm rather rusty, and I'm not entirely up to date with the meta/best internals. I'm catching up, but it's like fording a river by throwing dead bodies into it. You'll get across, eventually.

[Feydaikin]

How about putting a few Training Servers up where people can experiment with different load outs with minimal frustration? I'll explain:
Allow players to use a few different mechs and load outs in the practice room so that: A) they have idea of the fun they are about have when they unlock that mech for match play, and B) they can get a feel for the capabilities of the mechs they are playing against.

Automatically healing, so that there is more time in the mech rather than the garage. But, NOT "God mode". We want them to see and understand how much damage they will take in action.
In training rooms, disable progression tracking (or, maybe a few mild progression bonuses for newbies). This will discourage most players from using it as a room for beating on newbies for fun.
Despite what I just mentioned though, we DO allow players of any skill level to enter. That way, a few skilled players can show new guys better tactics.
Long match times in training servers to allow more time in the cockpit for practice.

Doing this might allow a better environment for newbies to get their feet wet without upsetting the established player base

[ticklemyiguana]

1. The CRT is a starter mech because it is in fact, a noob friendly version of the assault.

 

It has a larger radar area. It has a larger fuel tank, and a faster fuel regen. It has a faster cooldown from overheating, and as far as I'm aware, the ability eliminates more heat than the assault. (Though that really might be only the case for the G2 Assault.)

 

What do these factors have in common?

 

They assist in the things that new players, familiar with FPS games, are not used to controlling. It's more forgiving for them. However, to keep it balanced with the Assault, it trades off a couple things, like speed and health. Things that most players are already familiar with.

 

Furthermore, the starting weapon for the CRT is the assault rifle. I can't speak for everyone, but I know when I started playing Hawken, I liked to keep people at a distance, because I didn't know what I was doing. The AR helped with that, while the SMC, which the assault comes equipped with by default, would help with that less so.

 

Don't give new players a less accessible mech just because it "looks cool." Don't rush this. Reskin the model of the CRT with assault, and Assault with CRT, if this is the route you want to take.

 

 

 

2. The brawler and the reaper are the cheapest mechs in the game because they represent some extremes of it. The brawler is one of the slowest mechs in the game, is intensely close ranged (with the flak, obviousy), and is rather bursty. The reaper is a relatively quick A mech, and is clearly the antonym of the flak brawler in terms of range. The AM SAR can be played as a relatively sustained weapon, and the mech is the most forgiving mech in the game in terms of fuel regeneration.

 

Neither of their abilities are particularly crazy, nor is the CRT's. None of them throw you curveballs, and considering all of this, they are meant to be purchased first so the player can work inward from there. (The assault is also at the same price tier, for obvious reasons.)

 

A new player's starting loadout should be these mechs, and be able to purchase one other mech at a rate of 50% or greater, off. Someone here stated that feeling like you have control over the direction you take as a new player is important, and I'd agree.

 

However, much of this needs to be explained to a new player. They can't just feel like they're being dumped on the battlefield with mediocre mechs.

 

The tutorial, as it stands, is garbage. The basics it teaches are rudimentary FPS basics with the slight twists that Hawken brings. It's very important that a new player is told that the mechs they are using are powerful, and why.

 

A tutorial is not something you can roll out by Friday, but the rest of that is, and the tutorial should be a high priority. Those of us here can wait for new content. I think you are correct in acting in a direction that assists new players first. But do it right. The tutorial, and helping players understand that they are not being tossed to the wolves out of the gate, is a high priority.

 

 

 

3. It's important to note that the issue isn't all new player's opinions. The issue is the opinions of the players that leave, or even those who haven't played yet and don't want to because of something they've heard.

 

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

I would recommend releasing the CRT, Assault, Brawler, and Reaper all at once, with a 50% or greater price deduction on a new player's first purchased mech.

 

Give whatever becomes of the CRT all the internals. Every one. You have to lay the cards on the table for the player to see. Guessing games are discouraging, and guessing games worth literally hours of play (HC grind) are downright frustrating.

 

(Also, please don't slip up and skip over the players who are already existing and don't have the mechs. Give everyone in the game the same deal. Sorry, seen it happen more than once, and the backlash from those players makes it feel as if it's worth saying.)

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 26 March 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[wwwking]

 

New players feel like they can't compete.  And, yes, there's a pretty nasty learning curve.  Not quite Eve Online learning curve, but it's in that direction:

 

 

 

We're working on rebuilding the ability to release new clients, game servers, and other systems, so we can't do code changes right now to address the issue.  And we can't just wave a magic wand and "fix it".  So, what *can* we do... like, right now?  After looking at the various tools available, here's what I think will tide us over until we can address things in a more comprehensive way:

 

 

Since there are a lot new users who get the impression that Hawken is about household appliances battling over... something, I want new users to start off with the Assault mech.  I will never forget a board member finding this image: Starting with the Assault should help address that snap judgement.

 

 

On a related note, back when I was green and free of all Hawken skills, I would notice the loadouts of the mechs killing me.  They had stuff that I didn't.  And then I noticed the only way for me to get that stuff was to either play a really really long time, or spend cash to get it.  Honestly, that's thinly veiled "pay to win", or it's dirty uncle "pay to compete".  I don't like that; and it's not even necessary!  What can we do though?

 

 

What if we simply give new users a full loadout of internals (let them choose their own deployables and items).  I suspect the best loadout for brand new users would emphasize survivability and slowing down the Time To Kll - so they have a little longer to process what's happening before they get killed.  Personally, when I first started Hawken, I found myself mystified as to why I just died... I didn't know what to look for, and it happened so fast that it took a *lot* of deaths before I figured it out.  There are many people who lose interest before then.  If we can reduce the number of deaths required for the average new player to "get" Hawken, then, well, that just benefits us all ;)

 

 

So... how can all this go down?  I want to try a few different new player loadouts while we're rebuilding our development capacity.  Then, I'm hoping you will seek out new players and ask for their impressions of Hawken.  This is a qualitative approach to improving the new player experience, and I think it will yield some genuine advances.

 

 

 

In recap, here's what I want to try, and what I want from you:

 

1. Let's give new players the Assault mech instead of the CR-T

    - Yell at me in the comments if that's just too offensive ;)

2. What do you think the new player loadout should be?  Reply with your thoughts.

    - Internals specifically (consider higher-tier items - they're all balanced after all)

    - Focus on survivability and slowing down the Time To Kill

    - I want to choose the first set this Friday morning (2 days from now)

3. Seek out new players and ask them:

    - What's their snap judgement of Hawken... how does it come across?

    - How much do they feel they can contribute to their team's success? How far from "competitive" to they feel?

 

 

I assume you're going to reply to this topic.  And probably message me with some choice words too ;)

 

 

 

-your thought is fine do it

[LaurenEmily]

Despite being totally useless (as it was pointed out earlier) the tutorial is completely optional. I still haven't played mine and when i started i kinda missed that it even exists. Feels like a huge oversight considering how hard this game is at first.

[talon70]

The War Has Just Begun

 

1) Introduce a new Fred replacement so OP its shameful to use it pasta point. <---haha cheers. I Like the Idea of a fully equipped assault  let them have a choice of 1 skin with a good variety to choose. Make it cool, or pretty or sporty. Make them limited edition or steamable.

 

2) Repair orbs are what the new pilot needs to have and learn to use (and share but not with the other team). Maybe a detonator.  Deflectors are my internal first choice, lower damage when dodging... thats what we do right?  I dont use the compressor but the new pilot should have one. Defense type items.

Beyond that a choice to try a variety  is really what the new person needs. Not grind a lot only  to spend WAY to much money on the wrong part.

 

3) Re-invite folks with a perc. I gave out several starter bundles to friends once upon a time and  I beleive  they felt a bit overwhelmed and did not play very long.   Mass email to throw out some freebies (frisbees too).  Let pilots know of the upcoming war. Lets give the new people some type of easier curve into the Hawken universe. Its one of the hardest yet most rewarding games ever.

 

Give a bunch to get people hooked.

 

Hot Layla handing out cool stuff at Phoenix comicon. Stuff like that is not really too expensive for the exposure it brings.

[aRc_aRc]

I don't remember exactly what internals I had when I started out, I didnt paid much attention to it because I was focused on learning the dancing galore of dodging sideways and timing cooldowns at the same time, but I remember the exact time when I noticed Hawken was not p2w; it was when I started reading the specs of the people who killed me, they had the exact same weapon as me, the tow rocket, and maybe a different primary weapon but most of the time they had the same weapons as me, and I could kill them.

 

The thing that standed out the most were the internals, they had like 3-4 even 5 of them and mine were a little silly, at first sight they look like a big advantage but once you read their description you notice they actually dont give you a hell of advantage, they just make slight performances to your mech, problem is you have to play a lot to buy internals, thats when people automatically think p2w

 

You can't never reach an agreement when you actually can buy them right away if you spend some money, so better focus this improvement in other ways, like the CR-T.

 

I'll just drop my two cents here, when I started playing I was expecting mechwarrior things, I loved the game right away because it felt different obviously, but the fact that you are driving a mech fades away by most of the scenarios being big enough for mechs to fight over. It loses some of the size comparison effect, like when you walk in a hallway you forget you are driving a mech cause the hallway is actually sized so you can jump and even fly, thats when you forget you're driving a mech.

 

Dont get me wrong, the map designs are awesome but maybe you should use structures that are actually reminding you how big you are, and then maybe newplayers will start acting like a mech instead of a call of duty soldier. I'd take cockpit improvements over new internals any day, like your arms moving around pushing buttons or pulling handles, ramen tossing around when you take hits, stuff flying around acting acording on how you are moving.

 

Thats why I love playing on city maps, even if the city sometimes doesn't look like one.

[dzrwzrd]

I want the player lvl cap to be higher than 30! That will throw a learning curve for most of us veterans! And i would also like a way to get rid of this EXP whiich is overdrawn without seeming like a play to win player mine is way too much to pay to exchange i wish i could exchange it some other way perhaps more weapons for the pre existing mechs?

[fkrIII]

absolute full loadout for the crt.  give them everything as I do not believe that anybody wants to play with that mech all of the time.  give them all internals and let them play with things to figure out the game.

 

you could make the CRT a farming mech, in other words you get bonus experience while playing with the CRT.

 

ps

 

I only use the sniper and that is all that I ever used,  I have been maxed out in exp for a long time and another way to tx exp would be great

[-Tj-]

1. Let's give new players the Assault mech instead of the CR-T

    - Yell at me in the comments if that's just too offensive ;)

2. What do you think the new player loadout should be?  Reply with your thoughts.

    - Internals specifically (consider higher-tier items - they're all balanced after all)

    - Focus on survivability and slowing down the Time To Kill

    - I want to choose the first set this Friday morning (2 days from now)

3. Seek out new players and ask them:

    - What's their snap judgement of Hawken... how does it come across?

    - How much do they feel they can contribute to their team's success? How far from "competitive" to they feel?

 

Going with the original post:

1: Cool, though I think giving them the Elite chassis instead of Fred as has been suggested might be better.

 

2:

Set A: Repair kit, basic extractor, basic deflectors, basic reconstructor, composite armor

Set B: Air compressor, failsafe, composite armor, basic extractor

 

Set A uses items that will help players survive longer without needing to know too much of the game's more unique gameplay aspects, gives them a little more chance when coming back from the ded, and includes some "Halo/CoD"-style health regeneration. Set B includes the air compressor, which I'm on the fence about including, but I don't think new players should be disallowed use of such an internal.

 

3: Good idea, but I think this would be better as an automated email survey after they've played for a day or two, with a reward for completing the survey being some HC to spend.

 

 

On a side note, I had been thinking of starting a post about this kind of thing being rewards-based for completing training, which should be more comprehensive. Putting it behind spoiler tags since it's not 100% relevant to this topic and would take some work to do:

 

Spoiler

Rewards-Based Training:

A set of individual training maps that instruct the player on individual aspects of Hawken, such as weapon and item usage, what internals do what, and some advanced movement and techniques. Upon completion of each training stage, if the player's competency is high enough, they are rewarded with the weapon used, or the lowest level of each item or internal used in the training. This would apply to the CR-T Recruit.

 

Examples:

Basic Training (movement, repair, targeting, radar, primary/secondary weapon use) - individual Fred Elite parts awarded per section of training

SMC Training, target practice - SMC unlocked, depending on score

Vulcan Training, target practice - Vulcan unlocked, depending on score

Detonator Training, target practice - Detonator MK 1 unlocked, depending on score

HE Charge Training, target practice - HE Charge MK 1 unlocked, depending on score

Scrambler Training - Scrambler MK 1 unlocked upon completion

Scanner Training - Scanner MK 1 unlocked upon completion

Shield Training - Shield MK 1 unlocked, depending on completion

Air Compressor Training - AC unlocked if map is navigated successfully within a given time

Air 180 Training - Air 180 unlocked if competent use of Air 180 is demonstrated

 

... and so on. This way, the player gets rewarded with free items for completing training (well, maybe not free... they've paid with a time investment). This would give players a nice incentive to do the training while learning and earning.

 

Edit: is there a filter that's changing "d e a d" to "ded" going on here? Changed it 3 times and it keeps going back to "ded." I'm starting to think I'm going crazy...

Edited by -Tj-, 26 March 2015 - 12:51 AM.

[MomOw]

Fred is a good starter Mech, what was frustrating was mostly the lack of choice beside the CT-recruit

 

What about having :

- an almost filled-up CT-recruit (1x shield, 1x repair charge, 1x detonator / deflector, repair kit and basic failsafe)

- 7000 HC (enough to buy a brawler or a reaper and some equipment)

 

I'd also change the "levels" so that everything is unlocked after having played 5 hours everything is unlocked and I'd remove the level cap so that you still gain levels past 30 at the rate of  "1 level" per 20 hours of play (i.e. after 120 TDM) without limits and gain a some HC when gaining levels (same as daily win each time you gain a level)

Edited by MomOw, 26 March 2015 - 12:55 AM.

[joneau]

in my opinion its bit of a 50/50, the CR-T and assault arent far from each other but the CR-T "fred" is iconic mech of hawken.

 

 

there should be a different CR-Ts special skill to fix whole thing but doubt that happens any near future so...

1 time discount on any mech when CR-T reaches mech rank 3 for example,

T1 internals free for "only CR-T" when reached the pilot level to unlock those.

or just raise the HC earned when playing with CR-T

 

pretty surely it makes you to either play CR-T or go with a new mech. at the end, its players choice what he wants to do :D

 

EDIT: we want to see the dishwasher ingame, LOL.

Edited by joneau, 26 March 2015 - 01:12 AM.

[JeffMagnum]

I agree with tickle about the tutorial being a huge issue. The number of players I've seen who don't even know that things besides TOW have a weapon utility is ridiculous. They all think Hellfires are basically a rocket shotgun until I say they can actually lock on to mechs.

 

Here are the 10 most important things not initially obvious from an FPS background that a new tutorial should go over and emphasize, in no particular order:

 

1. Learning what puts you on radar

2. Watching your radar to see what the enemies are doing

3. Managing your fuel carefully

4. Sticking with your teammates

5. Using weapon utilities and why they're useful

6. Managing heat

7. The importance of abilities and using them wisely

8. Avoiding damage by doing more than just dodging side-to-side (I've seen people stand still in combat and just dodge back and forth trying to avoid fire)

9. When and when not to hover or hovering and its tradeoffs (this is somewhat hard to do unless AC is made universal or an internal available at the start, since the criteria for this would change)

10. Spotting enemies and calling for backup

 

For 8, I don't think it'd be unreasonable to have new players learn basic maneuvers like L-dodging and other similarly-easy things by putting a glowing path on the ground with on-screen indications of when to do what in which directions. 

 

The thing is, it's hard for people to get a feel of the game in general with only CR-T available in the tutorial. AR+TOW is a very powerful combination, but it doesn't prepare players for anything but AR/SMC/Vulcan/SA+TOW. I'd like to see an offline "firing range" of sorts with all mechs and weapons usable against weak AI-controlled bots. Whenever a mech or weapon is selected, a quick tip on its use would pop up randomly out of a pool of maybe five or so. Those could be turned off in the options menu after the player figured everything out on their own. I'm sure the vet community would be more than happy to write tips like these, and they're probably going to be higher quality than ones written by (no offense meant at all; all of you have better stuff to do and less free time) developers who can't play as well and aren't intricately familiar with every aspect of the meta. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 26 March 2015 - 01:55 AM.

[X1Alpha2000]

Don't remove the CRT-Recruit. It's really a good Mech.

New Mechs, how about a new Mech-Class, the A-Class is a light Mech with 20to35tons; B-Class 40to55tons; C-Class 60to75tons, we need D-Class 80to100tons.

[nullBot]

1. I think that more than giving away the assault mech away just like that you should focus on a campaign kinda feature that could allow people to play together (campaign co-op?) and understand how to play their mech, it's also boring just to sit down and play multiplayer, it feels empty at some point (for god's sake play armored core and learn from them).

 

2. Player loadout should contain:

Internals: shield and faster drain from orbs.

Items: shield and healing item.

 

The way to get internals and new items is absurd, takes AGES, so please do something about it, I also think that you should give away the possibility to purchase mech parts and be able to assemble your own mech, but that could change your business model, it's just something I'd love to see and in my opinion would make the game even better, I think that this could be a feature that unlocks after getting some achievements or after mastering let's say 5 different mechs.

 

3. Newcomers that I know won't play the game because it's too hard for them, they don't know how to play in teams since they don't understand the different mech roles, also takes a while to master the controls (see 1).

 

Last advice, let players test the mechs available in the store, not in an online match but in a free roaming mode or against a bot, it breaks my heart to spend 10� to see that the infiltrator is not for me, I really wanted to quit playing because of that.

Edited by nullBot, 26 March 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[Nightfirebolt]

 

If you give newbies the Assault (pretty much the same machime but better overall) you could slow up their skill progression in the game mechanics, as they will be slaughtered again and again in one of the best Mech ingame, what can lead to a misconception of pay2win or something.

 

Yup. The Assault mech is better, but it is harder to learn. The CR-T's stats were designed to help players learn the game (it's more forgiving for heat, fuel recharge, etc). I absolutely do not recommend you replace the CR-T with the Assault. Besides, the free 500 MC players get after their first few hours can be used to get an Assault if they really want one.

 

I definitely like the idea of giving new players a free full set of internals, though. And maybe even a full set of items on top of that. I don't think players should be forced into a single build; they should be able to choose what they want. You could put a note on the choice screen, recommending to them that shields, orbs, deflectors, failsafe, etc (i.e., defensive things) are their best picks because those are the things that will increase their survivability.

 

I don't think you have much to lose by allowing players a generous boon like this. Most players start saving up for the next mech right away anyway. Forcing them to spend extra time to trick out their Fred is probably not helping with player retention.

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 26 March 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

 

I want the player lvl cap to be higher than 30! That will throw a learning curve for most of us veterans! And i would also like a way to get rid of this EXP whiich is overdrawn without seeming like a play to win player mine is way too much to pay to exchange i wish i could exchange it some other way perhaps more weapons for the pre existing mechs?

 

This has nothing to do with new players, and raising the level cap doesn't magically add or extend the learning curve. The learning curve will be there no matter what, even if there were no levels at all and everything was unlocked from the get-go. Tacking a grind to an arbitrarily larger number to raise the level cap doesn't do anything to the learning curve.

Also, learning curves are subjective. Not everyone learns at the same rate. So even if you raised the level cap, there'd be people who learn everything they need to know before hitting the cap, and those who don't know it all even long after they hit the cap.

[LaurenEmily]

How about something like this: Every time you buy a new mech you are required to complete a tailored custom tutorial specific to each mech where laila makes sure you don't blow yourself up in the first 15 seconds.
It could also be used to explain the weapons and their utilities with more depth, And the most efficient way of playing that specific mech.

[JeffMagnum]

How about something like this: Every time you buy a new mech you are required to complete a tailored custom tutorial specific to each mech where laila makes sure you don't blow yourself up in the first 15 seconds.
It could also be used to explain the weapons and their utilities with more depth, And the most efficient way of playing that specific mech.

 

I wouldn't mind this, but unless the default tutorial is improved a ton, players wouldn't have a solid enough grasp of core mechanics for a detailed explanation of a mech in particular to help much. This would also be a very labor-intensive process, and I imagine another HAB-like group would have to be created to ensure the tutorials are accurate before being released to the public. 

[AsianJoyKiller]

I wouldn't mind this, but unless the default tutorial is improved a ton, players wouldn't have a solid enough grasp of core mechanics for a detailed explanation of a mech in particular to help much. This would also be a very labor-intensive process, and I imagine another HAB-like group would have to be created to ensure the tutorials are accurate before being released to the public. 

EVOLVE has something similar. Not a playable tutorial, mind you, but a character-specific video that plays the first time you use a character and goes over the basic mechanics of the character. The best part about it, is it takes place during the loading of the match, a time when you're not really able to do anything else anyway.

They're short, yet well-explained, and it makes it rather easy to start using a new character competently right off the bat without fumbling around just trying to figure out what does what.

[MomOw]

As far as I understood the purpose of this topic is an easy adjustment so that hawken would be more attractive to new players.

Stuff such as better tutorial are out of scope (even though it would be great).

 

replacing CT-recruit by the assault isn't a great idea as fred is a beast, just add it some internals or items, but give the new players an option to have one other mech in their garage (a 1 time discount, an HC pool at start... whatever works and allow a new player to have another mech to use).

 

Also change the offline mode so that you earn a few HC, and modify the offline TDM so that it works more like the CoopTDM (random Mechs, better AI)

[JeffMagnum]

EVOLVE has something similar. Not a playable tutorial, mind you, but a character-specific video that plays the first time you use a character and goes over the basic mechanics of the character. The best part about it, is it takes place during the loading of the match, a time when you're not really able to do anything else anyway.

They're short, yet well-explained, and it makes it rather easy to start using a new character competently right off the bat without fumbling around just trying to figure out what does what.

 

That seems like a pretty decent idea for a lot of straightforward mechs, but I worry about some that have additional mechanics like Pred and Incin. I'm not sure you'd be able to fit everything you need to know to use them effectively into a video people would be willing to sit through.

 

Also, would there be a different video each time you buy a new weapon for a mech? It'd obviously be redundant with AR/SMC/Vulcan mechs, but some can have entirely different playstyles depending on their primary. Scout, Infil, Pred, Raider, Gren, Rocketeer, and Brawler come to mind in particular. 

 

 

As far as I understood the purpose of this topic is an easy adjustment so that hawken would be more attractive to new players.

Stuff such as better tutorial are out of scope (even though it would be great).

 

 

It was the intention, but the discussion right now is civil, thought-out, and at least tangentially related. I think there's a lot to be had from this conversation, especially in a thread that cpnjosh is watching specifically. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 26 March 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[NotAnExit]

1. Let's give new players the Assault mech instead of the CR-T

    - Yell at me in the comments if that's just too offensive ;)

 

Fred is iconic!  I love the idea that there's a interplanetary war going on, you're not particularly valuable yet, and we tossed this piece of [1-900-mixalot] together for you; now get out there and fight, maggot!  Personally I want to see more appliance based walking scrap piles.  

 

2. What do you think the new player loadout should be?  Reply with your thoughts.

    - Internals specifically (consider higher-tier items - they're all balanced after all)

    - Focus on survivability and slowing down the Time To Kill

    - I want to choose the first set this Friday morning (2 days from now)

 

Test drives plus Universal XP kind of make this a non-issue.  Instead you might consider giving new accounts a set amount of free HC, one early free weapon unlock, a week of double xp / hc, or any mech + Fred at start-up.

 

3. Seek out new players and ask them:

    - What's their snap judgement of Hawken... how does it come across?

    - How much do they feel they can contribute to their team's success? How far from "competitive" to they feel?

 

As a returned "new" player, I can tell you nothing is more frustrating than Vulcaning some dude in the face until I overheat only to be one-shotted with nothing to show for it, and it's definitely the reason I left last time.  Hawken is crazy good fun when it's firing on all cylinders, and I'm leaning hard on my co-workers to jump.

 

As a suggestion:  Fill the unbalanced teams with Bots.  Any time a real person joins, rotate the bot out.  Players leave?  Hey look, a bot technician...

Edited by NotAnExit, 26 March 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[Bad_BennyAK]

Hello, and thank you, Cap'n Josh, for breathing life into this AWESOME game!  I'm a diehard Hawken fanatic, and indeed got back into PC gaming from Console, primarily for this game.  It truly makes me feel like a Labor pilot! (I'm a Patlabor Anime fan, best Mech series there is.)  

 

Firstly, I LOVE the Recruit!  One of the things that attracted to me about the game was a PC Gamer article on it, with an up- close photo of the Recruit cockpit, and after SO many Voltron-Gundam-You name it wild styles, I LOVED the boxy realistic look of that mech. the other styles are great, but the Recruit is always gonna be special. 

 

Just dealing with the Items & Internals, why not simply add a Training Mode, with 15 levels, and each level, they can chose 1 item, (and get a 3-pack),  and 1 Internal, (The most extreme 4 slot example),  and complete a basic TDM with robots utilizing those items.  As they progress through the levels,  checking off items and internals on a check list, They can only complete the training when they make it through all the levels, which get progressively harder.  they will need to check off all items and internals, in order to make it to the final level.  In this way, they don't need to spend valuable game credits on an unknown, and can experience each system within the confines of valuable VR Training.  Completion of this gaming mode can lead to a credit award, perhaps 10k credits, with which to buy their favorite items and internals for their new mechs.  

 

in order to learn boost jumping for noobies, perhaps a VR obstacle course could be in order, with random stationary targets to keep them focused on shooting, while relying on strafe boosting and just strafing, to learn those valuable skills, which will prepare them against the top Hawken players. 

 

I don't like giving freebies to noobs, I think stepping up to the challenge is rewarding in and of itself. Whenever I'm humbled by a badass Hawken player,  (You know who you are, you strafing Scout pilots!) I know I need to step my skills up. My ONLY REAL irritation with the game so far is Noobs shooting guns at battleships... instead of taking the AA zone. I wish there was a way to penalize, or negatively affect those slouchers instead of making the team suffer. Other than that, this game is spot on. 

 

[(KDR) Corrupted64]

Hi, I'm officially a Newbie according to Steam I have 27hrs on the Hawken clock. Although I'm a Hawken noob I've played tons of shooter style games. This means I (believe) have a certain style of play. When I set out for my first match I thought I'd probably just get killed over and over (like I did in Planetside). I actually did pretty well in the CR-T ending my first night on a positive K/D. It was when I first got the Assault I started to struggle, at my level the biggest problem with the game is people running off on their own. A team of TV heads working together can give most people a hard time.

I would say the most daunting thing to a new player is the grind. Looking at the HC prices of the more advanced Mechs kinda puts you off. I would suggest increasing the HC payout if possible or allow more HC bonuses at low levels.  

 

I like the CR-t but if he must go, my other suggestion is to give a new player a choice of "recruit" classes right off the bat. So you could give a player a choice of a "recruit" light, medium or heavy. Each could be a simple but insightful version of a class. Give them all TV heads if you want, they do have a certain charm. 

[LaurenEmily]

EVOLVE has something similar. Not a playable tutorial, mind you, but a character-specific video that plays the first time you use a character and goes over the basic mechanics of the character. The best part about it, is it takes place during the loading of the match, a time when you're not really able to do anything else anyway.
They're short, yet well-explained, and it makes it rather easy to start using a new character competently right off the bat without fumbling around just trying to figure out what does what.

They already started something similar in the official hawken youtube channel, it was called the hawken mech mechanics and it was very similar to what you described. The never finished that though, and it only features a couple of the mechs. It is fairly outdated as well describing the mech-tuning gameplay element that was dumped ages ago. Maybe they could revamp the video series and bring that to hawken.

Spoiler

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDJCrgpnXM

[Xacius]

 

 

 

I assume you're going to reply to this topic.  And probably message me with some choice words too ;)

 

 

 

-capnjosh

 

 

"1. Let's give new players the Assault mech instead of the CR-T"

Yes.  The existence of both is somewhat unusual, especially considering they're the exact same fuzzy bunnyng mech with different health values (the assault being clearly better in every respect)

 

"2. What do you think the new player loadout should be?  Reply with your thoughts"

3x repair orbs.  The other item is up for debate, but I'd recommend 1x shield. 

 

Internals should be the OPasfuzzy bunny orb build:

Advanced Repair Kit

Extractor

Basic fuel generator

 

Ephasize dem health orbs yo, at least until you nerf them once the code becomes available. 

[RedVan]

Why not just allow new players to try anything they want in an offline bot match, then let them pick 1 mech, 2 internals, and 2 items of their choice.  That way they can feel like they get to start with a mech that they enjoy.  Newbies enjoying the game = longer term players.

[Z1Alpha]

Spoiler

1. The CRT is a starter mech because it is in fact, a noob friendly version of the assault.

 

It has a larger radar area. It has a larger fuel tank, and a faster fuel regen. It has a faster cooldown from overheating, and as far as I'm aware, the ability eliminates more heat than the assault. (Though that really might be only the case for the G2 Assault.)

 

What do these factors have in common?

 

They assist in the things that new players, familiar with FPS games, are not used to controlling. It's more forgiving for them. However, to keep it balanced with the Assault, it trades off a couple things, like speed and health. Things that most players are already familiar with.

 

Furthermore, the starting weapon for the CRT is the assault rifle. I can't speak for everyone, but I know when I started playing Hawken, I liked to keep people at a distance, because I didn't know what I was doing. The AR helped with that, while the SMC, which the assault comes equipped with by default, would help with that less so.

 

Don't give new players a less accessible mech just because it "looks cool." Don't rush this. Reskin the model of the CRT with assault, and Assault with CRT, if this is the route you want to take.

 

 

 

2. The brawler and the reaper are the cheapest mechs in the game because they represent some extremes of it. The brawler is one of the slowest mechs in the game, is intensely close ranged (with the flak, obviousy), and is rather bursty. The reaper is a relatively quick A mech, and is clearly the antonym of the flak brawler in terms of range. The AM SAR can be played as a relatively sustained weapon, and the mech is the most forgiving mech in the game in terms of fuel regeneration.

 

Neither of their abilities are particularly crazy, nor is the CRT's. None of them throw you curveballs, and considering all of this, they are meant to be purchased first so the player can work inward from there. (The assault is also at the same price tier, for obvious reasons.)

 

A new player's starting loadout should be these mechs, and be able to purchase one other mech at a rate of 50% or greater, off. Someone here stated that feeling like you have control over the direction you take as a new player is important, and I'd agree.

 

However, much of this needs to be explained to a new player. They can't just feel like they're being dumped on the battlefield with mediocre mechs.

 

The tutorial, as it stands, is garbage. The basics it teaches are rudimentary FPS basics with the slight twists that Hawken brings. It's very important that a new player is told that the mechs they are using are powerful, and why.

 

A tutorial is not something you can roll out by Friday, but the rest of that is, and the tutorial should be a high priority. Those of us here can wait for new content. I think you are correct in acting in a direction that assists new players first. But do it right. The tutorial, and helping players understand that they are not being tossed to the wolves out of the gate, is a high priority.

 

 

 

3. It's important to note that the issue isn't all new player's opinions. The issue is the opinions of the players that leave, or even those who haven't played yet and don't want to because of something they've heard.

 

__________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

I would recommend releasing the CRT, Assault, Brawler, and Reaper all at once, with a 50% or greater price deduction on a new player's first purchased mech.

 

Give whatever becomes of the CRT all the internals. Every one. You have to lay the cards on the table for the player to see. Guessing games are discouraging, and guessing games worth literally hours of play (HC grind) are downright frustrating.

 

(Also, please don't slip up and skip over the players who are already existing and don't have the mechs. Give everyone in the game the same deal. Sorry, seen it happen more than once, and the backlash from those players makes it feel as if it's worth saying.)

^ This.

[Jokerkrush_]

I like the CRT alot, it can be very deadly and OP when used by the right person. I am sure everyone sees it as a icon of Hawken, for the better or worse. Though if it will get more players and eventually help the game in the long run, then I am all in favor of this change.

 

I understand that changing the starting mech is a great approach, I also suggest giving the new player one of those boosters to make it easy for them to get HC and buy a new mech to further develop their interest of the game.^^

 

I don't know too much on the assault to properly suggest internals, so you guys can take the wheel on that. XD

Guess that's all, thanks for hearing me out and you seem like a cool guy capnjosh, we should dual sometime.

 

~Jokerkrush

[MechaDeLaMuerte]

I disagree on having Fred removed from the game.

I've just gotten 2 buddies of mine into playing this game and the looks of the starting mech are really the least of their concern.

What really really bothers them is that at level 5, we were already fighting multiple level 30s a match, like 8 matches out of 10...

Most of those already have multiple mechs maxed-out with custom items & internals, while we didn't even have enough HC to buy a radar.

 

And that's the other thing that seems to keep them away from the game. Without achievements, we would get like 150 HC a match. Really?
And how much was that mech I wanted? Oh right, 12816 HC... That's 86 matches (considering a match would last about 15-20 mins that's at least 20 hours) before you can buy your first mech. By then you're probably already around level 15 (so halfway) and you JUST bought your first mech...

It's quite difficult to correctly estimate the numbers, but I hope you get that it's something that has newcomers scratching their heads and leaving the game before they got a real taste of it, which is a terrible shame...

EDIT: And please fix the VoIP function, it's a highly team-based game after all =x

Edited by MechaDeLaMuerte, 26 March 2015 - 03:23 AM.

[CrimsonKaim]

A letter to capnjosh

 

 

So you've asked us, what the new beginner Assault should look like. Well, I want to suggest something different which makes it easy for new players to adapt to the game.

When I started playing Hawken (oh, storytelling incoming) at 12.12.2102, I-just-hated the Fred. It was okey. But that's the problem. It suits every situation well, not pretty good, but well. You have decent DPS wit ha little bit of burst potential. Additionally it looks ugly (but funny in a way). 

So what did I do? Purchased Meteor Credits and bought myself a brand new Infiltrator. I fell in love with this thing instantly, I mean, CLOAK!

However, it suited my playstyle (sneaky peek-a-boo, hit n' run, etc.). This was my first mech lvled up to lv 25 (Yes back in the days you had mech levels to 25 and much more awesome stuff).

 

So the problem, in my opinion, is that new players don't play Hawken as their first shooter, therefor they already have their own playstyle (rambo, bruiser, sneaky, sniper, whatever). So please think about this, capnjosh:

 

You don't have one, but three B-class mechs at the beginning of your journey. B-Classes because we should first show newbeis the role of the classes rather than the additional difference between A, B and C. These three mechs should be:

 

 

1. The Fred or Assault. 

 

The Fred/Assault comes with an Assault rifle and a SMC already unlocked. Including a Shield MK-II for defensive use (in the very common case of danger) and a Scanner MK-II to teach newbies the importance of the radar.

Internals should be Deflectors (Newbies usually run away in danger, the deflectors decrease the recieved damage by 20% while boosting or dodging), together with an Evasive Device (increases runnign speed when you are low of health, does not apply for boosting) and a (I hate this internal because unrealism) Fuel converter (newbies recieve usually much damage and nothing is important in Hawken as fuel).

 

The mostly defensive build of the Fred will drastically increase the TTK. The Scanner should, as mentioned, get newbeis used to the radar system and teach them to use it more often.

 

 

2. The Sharpshooter

 

The Sharpshooter is the classic sniper in Hawken. It has some extra damage output with its ability and should also have some health pool (that's why I choose B-classes) to survive surprising attacks.

It comes with the automatic SA-hawkings as well as the Slug Rifle for professional sniper players. Items should be the Hologram MK-II as well as a Blockade MK-II (so we don't have a shield again). The Hologram is the standart item on the sniper and can confuse enemies at a far distance. The Blockade should help against other snipers to protect and to make a quick escape if necessary.

Internals should be Advanced Reconstructor for autoheals when out of combat (which may be common in a new sniper), an Armor Fusor (after killign a mech heals the mech for a certain percentage) and a shock coil (I just prefare it to have this on snipers, adds some sneaky movements without hurting yourself).

 

This loadout should suit a passive sniper playstyle which has advantages in killing AND beeing passive. The Hologram is good for confusion and the Blockade even better for defensive situations. However, it does not influence the TTK at all.

 

 

3. The Raider

 

Now this is the Burst-Mech of the three. The Raider comes with a T32 Bolt and an EOC Repeater for some extra burst (we avoid the Reflak as it is a sustained weapon). With its ability you can shoot while boosting while having an icnredible movement buff!

Now, the Raider should be an agressive mech for shooter veterans as well as for newbies who don't like sustained and sniper mechs/playstyles.

I would give him a Detonator MK-II for some extra burst and an EMP MK-II against many enemies standing close together.

Ofcourse We give the Raidar Deflectors as he is boosting pretty much as well as a Failsafe (reduces self damage) due to the large explosion damage he deals. The last internal is a Fuel Converter because we want to get the maximum out of that ability!

 

This loadout is, as already said, agressive and may not be good for real beginners of the shooter genre, however, for people who are familiar with this (and there are quite a few), this mech offers some extra abilities to fast become a good Hawken pilot!

 

 

!Important!

 

Every of these three mechs are treated like test drives whic hmeans they can't be customized (except for weapons) in any way, they will not gain experience for these mechs but they have a choice. A choice which one of these mechs they want to start playing Hawken with. They can choose one mech for free and this mech will already be at the level where the 2nd weapon is unlocked, so their previous matches are mroe or less taken into account.

 

That's it for now, sorry for grammar and spelling mistakes :]

[Grollourdo]

Ok i didnt read all the replys XD but ima put my opinion anyway XD

 

Umm i would say put the assult in as ballanced as possible XD idk what to put but yeah balance! XD

 

 

 

as for the crt why dont we all keep it as a souveneer XD     

 

like an elite thank you for playing since the adhesive age or something  XD

 

i realy wanna keep my crt if he becomes so special XD lol

[Guns_N_Rozer]

well as Assault mech.. it should have Assault Rifle

 

            for the internal ---> someone give assumption that orb lord idea  ( Internal : Advanced repair kit + 2 slot extractors + fuel converter  ,Item : MKlll Orb + Shield  ), but as a new player ,the pilot don't know how to dance in the orb to getting HP back .also there is a disadvantages ,if a smurf would play with orb lord assault .....oh man i can see 3rd world war   .well if u wanna put this orb lord idea  by default u should have put a introduction video , how to play as orb lord mech .

 

           from my personal opinion : Internal : Advanced Armor Fusor + air Compressor  or Advanced Armor Fusor + 2 slot Dflector + fuel converter  Item     :  MKll Shield + MKll Health ORB 

Edited by RozerMahbub1, 26 March 2015 - 03:42 AM.

[HellAlex2762]

The CR-T may stay, but change the way it looks. For me it looks like an old CRT TV or monitor on which any minute a the blue screen of death will appear.
As for the internals one of the best things to have is the Suspension Coil (100% damage reduction from falls), Deflectors (high tiers give up to 40% self damage reduction), Armor regenerator (after 10sec. off battle start to repair armor - high tiers have time reduced), Extractors (from 5% to 20% faster orb consumption) and the Kill Regenerators (after assist or kill regenerate from 5% to 15% armor).

For the externals (items), they should have Shield MK II and Granade or Shield and Repair kit.

[WarPig]

It's nice to see a topic such as this from management. 

 

I will give my best input / thoughts on it and hope that it was good.

 

The learning curve is not that huge in terms of a shooter by no means. However I can see some reasons

in wanting to change things up.

 

Purchasable pixels is something that many of us have said in the past we would be happy to get nickle and dimed for. 

Items such as clan Tags , Logo slots to upload so we can stick them on our mechs. I feel the RPG element in most FPS 

games today is killing the joy / fun for newcomers. I can't speak for everyone but chasing a carrot on a stick gets downright

Fkn annoying. 

 

The model is Free to play and you want it that way I would assume so you can in turn charge for simple service's that help

enhance an account not hinder game play or mechanics. My suggestion would have been and always be GIVE EVERYTHING 

to the players , stop the progression/ stupid level grind crap and let players enjoy the game fully. There are plenty of ways to create

and charge small cosmetics to make the cash. 

 

----------

** I will make a point that I have a ton of info/ input regarding paying and gaining for players not worth slamming into this post. 

-----------

 

Many of us have asked / begged for our own personal server with ability to host small matches/ tournys which is also another service some 

have been willing to pay for. 

 

I believe allowing the community to work with it's own players and have something of meaning such as Clans vs Clans and Recorded matches n 

such will help promote to new players the game along with sticking with it to learn the curve and enjoy the game. Community driven events are

in large some of the most valuable promotion cuz it's free and attracts others, I don't understand wy this concept was ignored for so long.

 

I will say Thnx to those who attended the 12/12/12 Launch Tourny which I got the honor of shoutcasting was 1 of the best times and I thought things

where going to continue in that direction. For those who attended should sound off and maybe show Josh and Tiggs it was our time  and it was 

a fun night we learned a lot and needed more support from dev's to make more events like this possible. 

 

My main points out of just talking cuz i have a headache and been up for only few minutes..

 

1. Give it away - accept for the mechs

2. Destroy RPG / progression suck elements  (some will say they like it but it's about overall not select few)

3. Get more Cosmetics / Fun MECH like stuff to buy

4. Clan / Community Support should be more ... Priority (This will help reach out to new players, not just dev's but from all)

5. Keep it Transparent and don't jerk this community around they see it fairly quickly. 

 

 

Lastly HI AJK I miss you 

Anything not said right or spelled right I blame hangover and lack of sleep dun care hope I helped some :) 

<3 Hawken <3 you all