213 replies to this topic

[capnjosh]

New players feel like they can't compete.  And, yes, there's a pretty nasty learning curve.  Not quite Eve Online learning curve, but it's in that direction:

 

 

 

We're working on rebuilding the ability to release new clients, game servers, and other systems, so we can't do code changes right now to address the issue.  And we can't just wave a magic wand and "fix it".  So, what *can* we do... like, right now?  After looking at the various tools available, here's what I think will tide us over until we can address things in a more comprehensive way:

 

 

Since there are a lot new users who get the impression that Hawken is about household appliances battling over... something, I want new users to start off with the Assault mech.  I will never forget a board member finding this image: Starting with the Assault should help address that snap judgement.

 

 

On a related note, back when I was green and free of all Hawken skills, I would notice the loadouts of the mechs killing me.  They had stuff that I didn't.  And then I noticed the only way for me to get that stuff was to either play a really really long time, or spend cash to get it.  Honestly, that's thinly veiled "pay to win", or it's dirty uncle "pay to compete".  I don't like that; and it's not even necessary!  What can we do though?

 

 

What if we simply give new users a full loadout of internals (let them choose their own deployables and items).  I suspect the best loadout for brand new users would emphasize survivability and slowing down the Time To Kll - so they have a little longer to process what's happening before they get killed.  Personally, when I first started Hawken, I found myself mystified as to why I just died... I didn't know what to look for, and it happened so fast that it took a *lot* of deaths before I figured it out.  There are many people who lose interest before then.  If we can reduce the number of deaths required for the average new player to "get" Hawken, then, well, that just benefits us all ;)

 

 

So... how can all this go down?  I want to try a few different new player loadouts while we're rebuilding our development capacity.  Then, I'm hoping you will seek out new players and ask for their impressions of Hawken.  This is a qualitative approach to improving the new player experience, and I think it will yield some genuine advances.

 

 

 

In recap, here's what I want to try, and what I want from you:

 

1. Let's give new players the Assault mech instead of the CR-T

    - Yell at me in the comments if that's just too offensive ;)

2. What do you think the new player loadout should be?  Reply with your thoughts.

    - Internals specifically (consider higher-tier items - they're all balanced after all)

    - Focus on survivability and slowing down the Time To Kill

    - I want to choose the first set this Friday morning (2 days from now)

3. Seek out new players and ask them:

    - What's their snap judgement of Hawken... how does it come across?

    - How much do they feel they can contribute to their team's success? How far from "competitive" to they feel?

 

 

I assume you're going to reply to this topic.  And probably message me with some choice words too ;)

 

 

 

-capnjosh

[crockrocket]

Interesting... I think starting them with Assault is a good idea. What's the end game for crt? Delete for purchase and let those of us that have it keep it?

 

I'm honestly not sure what to recommend for a new player loadout, especially with items and internals locked on a level up basis. I would say let them choose their one free loadout, but that sounds like it would require some coding.

[LaurenEmily]

Would you completely get rid of the CRT or change it in some way ?

[Ashfire908]

1. Let's give new players the Assault mech instead of the CR-T
    - Yell at me in the comments if that's just too offensive ;)

An alternative could be to setup the recruit with it's elite chassis off the bat, which definitely does not look like a washing machine. :)

[LaurenEmily]

An alternative could be to setup the recruit with it's elite chassis off the bat, which definitely does not look like a washing machine. :)

Out of likes, so here's a virtual one.

So much agree on this, fred's elite skin is one of the coolest skins in game imo, but very few play fred long enough to even unlock it.

Also, maybe you should change assault in some way so it's a little more different than the crt ?

[CraftyDus]

An alternative could be to setup the recruit with it's elite chassis off the bat, which definitely does not look like a washing machine. :)

 

I don't know man, it kinda does, like the ones from the late 1940's, that round head flips open and the agitator is right there inside.

 

 

 

Edited by craftydus, 25 March 2015 - 09:07 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

My First Dave Starter Kit:

 

Mech: Assault Rifle Assault

Internals: Advanced Repair Kit, Extractor, and Basic Fuel Converter

Items: Repair Charge MK-III and EMP MK-I

[AsianJoyKiller]

1. I don't see anything wrong with swapping out the CR-T for the Assault (aside from nostalgia). But I also don't see much of a reason to do it either. Yes, it is slightly more powerful, but to almost all new players, that's not going to factor in because their significant lack of skill will overshadow it by a large margin.

 

If it's merely the perception of power you're worried about, make the elite chassis the default, and Fred the unlockable version. Some people might not understand why such a garbage-looking chassis is what you unlock, but that's a very minor problem. Certainly more minor than people thinking their mech is mechanically worse because it looks like a old TV.

2. What is it, the Reconstructor that gives health on assists and kills? The advanced version of that strikes me as a rather good newbie internal. Definately helps out their ability to sustain. Likewise, the internal that sucks up health orbs faster would be good for similar reasons.

I'd also say the Air Compressor. It just changes the game so much, it's silly. Honestly, I can recall a number of times where new players thought people with Air Compressors were cheating because they couldn't figure out how some people where magically able to dodge in mid-air while they couldn't. For that matter, I've seen some new players think that the Reconstrutor effect was due to cheating too.

I think it says something when certain internals cause people not familiar with the game to think that others are cheating.

 

As for items, Mk3 Repair Charges, and something else that could be used offensively.
 

3. My experience with new players varies so wildly I couldn't give any good answer. I've seen people who think it's totally P2W, and those who immediately understood the payment model. I've seen those who could handle the mechanics right off the bat, and those who thought it was impossible to get used to.

One thing I think needs doing though, is make it absolutely certain that people aren't thinking Hawken is a mech simulator. That has to be one of the most frequent misconceptions I've run across.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 25 March 2015 - 09:09 PM.

[Z1Alpha]

I don' think you should give them assault, but rather what Ashfire said

 

 "setup the recruit with it's elite chassis off the bat"

 

would be much better. People like customization, and so I think giving them some free internals or items to work with would also help. I don't think veterans would like to see the CR-T disappear. Maybe a let them pick and choose one free item and internal? I'm not sure, but I do like the idea of switching it up for newer players.

[CraftyDus]

its good to see josh with the comic graph of a mmorpg learning curve in relation to hawken, usm999 would be vindicated, he'd be happy to know someone "gets it"

[Shadeness]

Assault w/ Air Dodge and Regen HP on Kill. Shields and HP Orb.

Air Dodge so that they aren't immobile when they fuzzy bunny up and jump.
Regen HP on Kill because it rewards the player for a kill.
Shield for survivability.
HP Orb for survivability.

Berserker w/ the above.

It's basically an A class Assault. New players are commonly killed by A class mechs, and this lets them realize it's not just the mech but also skill. The weapons are familiar (unlike the test drive infiltrator where the secondary fires in an arc). It's also currently 12k HC which a bit to raise.

Edited by Shadeness, 25 March 2015 - 09:33 PM.

[Amidatelion]

Some good internals would be a reconstructor or extractor, deflectors and a fuel converter. Gives players a solid start on figuring out how internals modify their mech's capabilities and push them slightly in certain directions.

 

I also agree with Ashfire re: giving new players the elite chassis - though perhaps reskin it to match the grey of standard issue mechs. So long as I get to keep my TV head, all's well. :)

[capnjosh]

As a clarification (maybe I should actually add this as an edit to the OP), the CR-T would stick around for sure.  Just add it as a mech you can purchase, just like the Assault is now.  They're effectively just switching positions.

 

Having the CR-T with a different chassis would probably work pretty well.  I'm a little hesitant to just insta-make-something-that-was-earned-or-purchased-with-cash-now-free-to-all-new-players.  Granted, in one sense, that'd be happening with the mech change itself, but it's a little different.  That's really the only thing that's making me prefer the Assault mech approach.

 

That being said, I'd like to actually try a few different things for new users.  So, hey, maybe the next trial should be the elite chassis for the CR-T.

[bacon_avenger]

Well, if the idea is to lengthen the TTK for a new player...

 

Sticking with the 1st level internals:

 

Composite armor^*

Basic deflectors^*

Basic failsafe^*

Shock coil

Basic exractor

and either the basic reconstructor or basic power surger^*

 

Air compressor may be too advanced for someone brand new to the game, considering that I've seen a lot of new players that don't apparently know how to dodge (or forget that it's an option).

 

*- I marked these internals as I personally find them cheese ball 'CoD' internals, or poorly thought out,  and believe they should be removed/reworked, but that's another thread.  I include them as I see them as useful for helping a new player stay alive longer when just starting out.

[Anichkov3]

In my opinion you forget CR-T and Assault almost twin brothers. Correct to simply swap the first skin and elite skin CR-T - while beginners will not feel the game on the microwave...

And I would give newcomers to the CR-T direct access to all items  MK-I.

Internals - ADVANCED ARMOR FUSOR and/or ADVANCED REPAIR KIT.

[crockrocket]

Some good internals would be a reconstructor or extractor, deflectors and a fuel converter. Gives players a solid start on figuring out how internals modify their mech's capabilities and push them slightly in certain directions.

 

I also agree with Ashfire re: giving new players the elite chassis - though perhaps reskin it to match the grey of standard issue mechs. So long as I get to keep my TV head, all's well. :)

 

Fully agree with amid's internal selection. Good variety, and not a complete standard build - which is important because you'll be making whatever build you select very popular in the lower ranks. The internals you put in this thing have a high probability of becoming many new players' favorites, so sticking the meta in it is probably a bad idea.

Side note: I support eventually - at the end of beta - fully eliminating the crt for purchase or sale and leaving it as a reward for earlier players, kinda like some beta swag

 

EDIT: BTW, when I was starting, I hated the crt because I thought it sucked, not because it looked bad (actually thought it looked kinda nifty). As soon as I had played test drives long enough to afford it, I bought the assault and loved it. I can't explain my n00b logic from back then, but I thought it was a relevant anecdote. And yeah come to think of it, you probably do want to stick to basic level internals so they aren't starting with stuff they haven't unlocked. 

Edited by crockrocket, 25 March 2015 - 09:48 PM.

[Ashfire908]

As a clarification (maybe I should actually add this as an edit to the OP), the CR-T would stick around for sure.  Just add it as a mech you can purchase, just like the Assault is now.  They're effectively just switching positions.
 
Having the CR-T with a different chassis would probably work pretty well.  I'm a little hesitant to just insta-make-something-that-was-earned-or-purchased-with-cash-now-free-to-all-new-players.  Granted, in one sense, that'd be happening with the mech change itself, but it's a little different.  That's really the only thing that's making me prefer the Assault mech approach.
 
That being said, I'd like to actually try a few different things for new users.  So, hey, maybe the next trial should be the elite chassis for the CR-T.

Elite chassis are strictly earned via progression.

[Anichkov3]

Well, if the idea is to lengthen the TTK for a new player...

 

Sticking with the 1st level internals:

 

Composite armor^*

Basic deflectors^*

Basic failsafe^*

Shock coil

Basic exractor

and either the basic reconstructor or basic power surger^*

In my opinion it is a mistake to give the beginner:

Deflectors - not familiar with the game mechanics and dodge;

Shock coil - beginner will mistakenly believe that he never takes damage when falling from a height

Reconstructor - just simply does not help to survive in battle + more novice would take the only way to heal armor

[GondabBadong]

I don't know, I think that TV is pretty balanced, I would hate to lose it.  What else would I use besides my TV, Reaper, and (When it happens) Assault?

[JeffMagnum]

In addition to whatever is decided here, what about a weekly rotating set of free universal items and internals akin to the test drive system? The selections could be chosen to work well as a set, and by doing that, new players would also learn how to build for certain playstyles they like. The orblording build I posted above is one (dumb yet powerful) idea, but you could also try combinations using, for example, Advanced Reconstructor or Replenisher that focus on nontraditional combat which is still effective at lower levels. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 25 March 2015 - 10:35 PM.

[Anichkov3]

And please do not remove the CR-T. He has a right to exist, its performance still a bit different from Assault. It is possible to distinguish between them by manipulating with special abilities mechs. Loosen abilities in Assault and G2-Assault - reducing the amount of heating to decline by 35%. In the game files (thanks to the G2-Assault) already have analogue abilities CR-T - [R_Ability_G2_Coolant]. 

In the CR-T will be [R_Ability_Coolant]. 

In Assault and G2-Assault will be [R_Ability_G2_Coolant]. 

[LEmental]

Shield MKII / Rapair Charges MKII

Advanced Repair Kit / Extractor / Basic Fuel Converter

 

Focus on staying alive is good for newer players.

I think the CRT is fine for being removed.  You can just not give it to newer players and the players who already have one can just keep it. 

Or whatever, I never play it lol.
 

Edited by LEmental, 25 March 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[LaurenEmily]

Blue screen of death fred skin is one of the coolest things they ever invented for this game. So no, it's anything but ugly.

[ArchMech]

The best thing would be a new recruit matchmaking, and as you said, you're looking for a more "here and now" solution, which a new matchmaker is not that sort of solution.

Id like to hope that down the line a new recruit matchmaking could possibly be an option and im keeping that in mind while approaching the 3 points josh suggested.

 

1.  Just free up both the crt and assault altogether with absolutely free weapons, items, and internals, pound me into the ground for saying it but at this stage in the games life, why the hell not. Its a great mech in either form, im sure it would kill off any pay to win feelings, rumors, and whatnot. you could give the CRT a default loadout for them as an example, then leave the assault as a blank slate for the user. if thats to much work then *shrug*.

 

2. Heres the difficult part imo, but if we use the above it gets a little easier, as josh's idea stands they get what they get on the crt or assault+starting HC/trial mechs and may or may not think about it too much.

With above, they get stuffs/HC, 2 mechs, and trial mechs too and don't think about it too much (or if they do its in a more favorable way like spending their starting HC that they no longer have anything they NEED to spend it on for their CRT build).

 

i'd like to say it'd be easy to just cookie cutter a loadout, pin it on the CRT and call it a day but i don't think its all that simple.

 

I would love for the solution to all this to be a pregame questionnaire that could start you off with anything (mechs/weps/items/internals) based off the answers, but theres too many damned problems with that idea being in hawken, namely to many questions since its Hawken meta, and too much work.

 

For now i'll just say that, but i have no suggestions as far as the build thats actually being considered, ill leave that to every1 else, if i had my way the starter crt would have choice between tow rocket and GL so there.

 

3. will work on it, but we need some influx of players.

[Anichkov3]

Yes, yes, Archmeh says is correct - we already have three mechs from test drive. And I honestly do not understand why suddenly raised this issue with the CR-T.

[Coboxite]

If you're going to switch the CRT for the assault, the CRT needs to be radically different from the Assault, a similar mech with slightly less health and speed would not be at all apealing to a new player.

 

Rather than replace the CRT for the Assault, emphasize that despite its looks, the CRT is still a very strong mech at its core. You might also want to give it back the recruit internals(Less heat, more health, more experience), that either reduce in effectiveness the higher the recruits level is, or once you max out the recruit, make them universal for all mechs to create an incentive to max out the CRT. You might also want to give it back its speed that it lost when tuning went away.

[AsianJoyKiller]

In addition to whatever is decided here, what about a weekly rotating set of free universal items and internals akin to the test drive system? The selections could be chosen to work well as a set, and by doing that, new players would also learn how to build for certain playstyles they like. The orblording build I posted above is one (dumb yet powerful) idea, but you could also try combinations using, for example, Advanced Reconstructor or Replenisher, that focus on nontraditional combat which is still effective at lower levels. 

Oooh. I like that.

Getting players used to what different items and, more importantly, internals do is a big thing. This would help prevent people on dropping hard earned creds on something that they don't actually know how it works in practice. Sometimes the tooltips just don't do an internal justice.

[GMKGoat]

I was going to agree with capnjosh on giving new players the Assault over the CRT, but then someone mentioned just handing out the elite chassis as the default and I think that's a better approach. The CRT could also use a name change. I actually have zero experience on my CRT. I have never launched with it and used all my starting HC to purchase a Reaper specifically to avoid ever having to pilot it. I recently bought an Assault and have been really enjoying it though, which makes me wonder why I avoided the CRT when I did. Maybe something about "Recruit" makes me think "garbage".

 

As for loadout, I wonder if it's a good idea to just hand new players the Orblord setup. It would certainly increase their survivability, but would you ever experiment with different items/internals if the game just gave you the good ones right away?

[LEmental]

As for loadout, I wonder if it's a good idea to just hand new players the Orblord setup. It would certainly increase their survivability, but would you ever experiment with different items/internals if the game just gave you the good ones right away?

 

This is more of an issue with the lack of viable setups.

[JeffMagnum]

As for loadout, I wonder if it's a good idea to just hand new players the Orblord setup. It would certainly increase their survivability, but would you ever experiment with different items/internals if the game just gave you the good ones right away?

 

It wasn't really a serious suggestion, but there might not even be a problem with it later on if orbs are brought into line with everything else. Right now, builds based around AC/Advanced Armor Fusor/Replenisher/Advanced Reconstructor for the three-slot internal seem like a better idea. 

[CrimsonKaim]

Imremember my first game in Hawken. I hated it, because of TOW and Assault Rifle. I simply hated these weapons and I still do. How about a second secondary?

And as for 1. @josh... WHY YOU WANNA KILL TRADITION? QQ

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

 

In recap, here's what I want to try, and what I want from you:

 

1. Let's give new players the Assault mech instead of the CR-T

    - Yell at me in the comments if that's just too offensive ;)

2. What do you think the new player loadout should be?  Reply with your thoughts.

    - Internals specifically (consider higher-tier items - they're all balanced after all)

    - Focus on survivability and slowing down the Time To Kill

    - I want to choose the first set this Friday morning (2 days from now)

3. Seek out new players and ask them:

    - What's their snap judgement of Hawken... how does it come across?

    - How much do they feel they can contribute to their team's success? How far from "competitive" to they feel?

 

 

1) I think this is a very reasonable decision. I know I wasn't much of a fan of the CRT. However, I want to add that being unable to choose your first class choice freely is very annoying to me as a player. It is the number one reason why I haven't started playing League of Legends, another F2P game: if I could choose a mech based purely on how I think it might play Hawken and my previous experience in other shooters, or aesthetics, or whatever, I would stay because I am not forced to play a role or style that simply doesn't feel natural to me.

 

So, I am suggesting that the player, in addition to getting one free mech as a baseline experience, get an additional free mech or heavily discounted mech (50% or more discounted) of their choosing.

 

2) One Basic Extractor, One Composite Armour, I have no opinion on the remainder.

 

3) Great idea.

[Milithistorian]

I don't know, I kinda liked the feel of the CRT when I first started playing. It felt like a noob-tailored mech that didn't look like it was expressly built for combat. Kinda strange, but I'm okay with using the assault as I can see why new players would dislike the CRT.

Also, I think the a Mk. 1-3 orb should be part of the new player pack. It's so improves survivability which is good for to help keep new players alive, and the 3204 HC grind is a little steep for them as well.

As for internals, I would suggest something like deflectors, fuser, reconstructor, and/or extractor.

 

Edit: also, maybe give them a choice between a starter A, B, or C class, to get them introduced to the classes and allow them to start off on a playstyle that suits them. However, I would suggest this be implemented as an achievement unlock around level 10 or so, to make sure they develop the basic skills needed before specializing.

Edited by Milithistorian, 25 March 2015 - 11:08 PM.

[Estif]

 I think a newbies Bonus would be cool, let�s say this bonus dissapear after he reachs level 5 or something. I read somewhere that the better way to make players happy is making them  feel they are earning lots of shiny things.

 

I think you will make a mistake if you mess around with things just scratching the surface, instead of doing  a deeper design change, messing with Elite skins, is messing with level progression, and messing with unlocked mechs is messing with people that is not new, but also don�t have everything unlocked, I know you have priorities, but DON�T RUSH!!

[LaurenEmily]

1) I think this is a very reasonable decision. I know I wasn't much of a fan of the CRT. However, I want to add that being unable to choose your first class choice freely is very annoying to me as a player. It is the number one reason why I haven't started playing League of Legends, another F2P game: if I could choose a mech based purely on how I think it might play Hawken and my previous experience in other shooters, or aesthetics, or whatever, I would stay because I am not forced to play a role or style that simply doesn't feel natural to me.
 
So, I am suggesting that the player, in addition to getting one free mech as a baseline experience, get an additional free mech or heavily discounted mech (50% or more discounted) of their choosing.
 
2) One Basic Extractor, One Composite Armour, I have no opinion on the remainder.
 
3) Great idea.

I only wanted to quote that part about getting to choose your starting mechs, but i'm on a scrubby tablet that doesn't let me to.
Okay so i think it's a great idea, it could explain different play-styles and then allow you to choose what you like the most, a bit like a 'career' mode where your gameplay is altered based on this decision.
(You could still keep the fred imo, just make 3 slightly different freds that you can choose from, each with a different playstyle)

[dataman]

no, the tv mech shouldn't be removed.

[LarryLaffer]

In addition to whatever is decided here, what about a weekly rotating set of free universal items and internals akin to the test drive system? The selections could be chosen to work well as a set, and by doing that, new players would also learn how to build for certain playstyles they like. The orblording build I posted above is one (dumb yet powerful) idea, but you could also try combinations using, for example, Advanced Reconstructor or Replenisher that focus on nontraditional combat which is still effective at lower levels.

That's kinda nice idea. Another version of items/internals test-drive can be temporary purchase for 3 or 7 days. Ofc the cost should be reduced accordingly. That way new players can test whatever they want relatively freely. This system works quite OK in Nosgoth.
 

About CR-T, swapping it with Assault without making them different is meaningless. The name of CR-T Recruit was intended as a pun due to its default skin, so swapping skins is meaningless too. It also tells us that this mech was designed for new players. So if you want to solve the "household appliances problem" (if this problem really exists), then it would be better to remove CR-T completely. (sad but true ).

 

The other way to solve this problem is renaming CR-T Recruit in something else (but similar) and give him another skin. Assault ability should be changed in that way.

 

I suggest 2 sets of internals for new players:

1. All basic Failsafe, Fuel Converter, Deflectors, Extractor, Reconstructor and Composite Armor. This setup allows new players to get the first glance of wide variety of internals.

2. My build for "agressive survivability": Armor Fusor, Deflectors, Basic Extractor, Composite Armor. I don't know will this build work good with new players, but it can increase their chances to survive.

 

As for items i suggest MK-I Shield and MK-III Repair Charge for greater survivability. This is good time-proved item build that use a lot of players.

 

UPD: made a little survey about new players first impressions on Hawken fanpage in social network service Vkontakte (I'm a moderator there). I hope it will help.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 26 March 2015 - 01:15 AM.

[Animal_Instinct]

Hmm don't like the idea. All veterans agree the TV is a good machine to learn the basics of the game.

Sure I hated it when I was newbie, but I had always in mind that it was a starter junk and soon I could put my hands on a better mech. Sense of progression & improvement.

 

Now, with all my mechs elited, I look back and see Fred like a very good mech. Competent in every aspect of the game.

 

If you give newbies the Assault (pretty much the same machime but better overall) you could slow up their skill progression in the game mechanics, as they will be slaughtered again and again in one of the best Mech ingame, what can lead to a misconception of pay2win or something.

 

The idea of give the newbie some internals is good, but again it could slow down their learning curve ( a newbie simply doesn't pay atention to his mech's equipment, he just spam fire and struggle to avoid enemy fire).

 

Another thing to consider is to change CR-T Recruit's secondary. TOW is amazing but it takes several hours (days in some cases) to figure how to use it correctly. Maybe some shotgun-like weapon or even a Hellfire would be more newbie friendly.

Edited by Animal_Instinct, 25 March 2015 - 11:35 PM.

[Snipertech]

I don't know if this helps at all, or hey you might have even watched it, but I think this video/advice by ExtraCredits perfectly sums up and solves the problem you have here! They've made quite a few other good advice videos if you ever have another problem.

[SINnestro]

This is totally wrong.The first thing i liked in Hawken is CRT!Yes it looks like microwave but look at the Mechwarrior they are all look alike.Today new players are spoiled, i advanced myself on old system and yes its hard,but there is no greater reward when you reach new level or buy new internal or weapon.So Noob`s stop being litlle girls and play like man!