125 replies to this topic

[Hyginos]

Can you explain this?  Even where I work does this when an employee goes elsewhere.  Why doesn't it work in this environment?

 

The problem with emailed exit surveys is that the vast majority of people are going to ignore them. The ones that do not will tend to be of a similar agenda and personality type, sharing what ever trait has made them take time to fill out an unsolicited survey that does nothing for them. Thus you will end up with a data set that is not representative of the real population.

 

It is more aptly called "non-response bias".

 

EDIT: If you do actually compile a list of smurfs keep track of their mech choices and throw the whole thing up on reddit. I'm curious to see who's still actually playing regularly.

Edited by Hyginos, 08 July 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[talon70]

The easy way out. That is what so many people expect and will just quit when things seem  too hard. That type of thinking is thought cancer and transfers into everything you do in life. Doing things smart efficient and streamlined is great but 'the easy way' is almost always not the best way. It is the hard to accomplish things in life that actually reward you.

 

The easy way out? There isn't one in this version of hawken. I guess maybe that is what the dual seekers are about but what fun could that possibly be.

[StubbornPuppet]

If you are not having fun, quit playing.  This is a game - entertainment.  If you are not having fun playing and being entertained... why are you wasting your and everyone else time?

[Nept]

I don't think it's that simple. This is a problem of a small player base. Skilled peeps meeting low skilled. Both wanting to play and the high skilled not adjusting their play style to accomodate new, less experienced players.

 

It is that simple.  We're all aware that these issues are exacerbated, if not caused outright, by Hawken's small playerbase.  But from kittens' perspective, there are limited options.  As I've told him before, he can request that stronger players don't smurf; he can request that they deliberately play down to his level; and he can request that they leave low-level servers.  But he needs to recognize that they're requests, and that the people he's addressing needn't acquiesce. 

 

His power is limited.  The only things he can control completely are his responses and his attitude.  He either recognizes that, buckles down, and continues playing, or he takes the victimhood route.

 

Nobody thinks the current matchmaking circumstances are ideal.  But rehashing the same arguments ad infinitum while pouting and threatening to quit changes nothing.  Most outspoken forumgoers - and almost all high-tier players - aren't even playing the game atm, let alone smurfing.

 

He's screaming into the void.

[TheButtSatisfier]

The people you've been debating - all of them - have been crushed and stomped throughout their Hawken careers.  Did you watch Amid's videos?  Because you should: they're a lesson in perseverance and attitude.  Even after they'd improved considerably, the players here were beaten soundly in competitive play.  But they also earned their victories.  They did not choose the path of least resistance.

 

Man, I've been annihilated in Hawken more times than I can count. I started out like every other player - I mained Rocketeer, didn't know how to dodge, stayed in turret mode, and spammed Hellfires to my heart's delight. I had scouts dance around me that I couldn't hit, faced vulgren's that couldn't die, and in general just thought that everyone was better than me.

 

Because they were.

 

Then again, I like the challenge, because that challenge becomes the point of reference I need to track my own progress. I feel a great sense of joy when I learn something new. So I started looking at online guides written by people more experienced than me. I started watching videos and practicing what I learned in matches. I started looking at theorycrafting threads and began to play loadouts I felt were optimal.

 

That was about 6 months into my Hawken career. That's when I learned about Scrimbot, and I first leaned that I was at ~2000 MMR. I decided I wanted that to be 2100. I worked on my gameplay, recorded people who were doing things I wanted to learn, and repeated over and over. 2100 came and went. I wanted 2200. I fought better people and studied them too. I got to 2200 soon thereafter.

 

I've been rolled so hard on so many occasions. Do you know what it's like to practice against Omni for a season? First, it's wonderful, because you learn a ton. Secondly, it initially sucks because you will practically never experience victory. If that's all you yearn for, then you won't like it. I've died over 10,000 times in 500 hours.  But each time, I've learned. I've participated in all kinds of drills with other people who wanted to learn as much as I do: aiming, attacking, defending, dancing, dodging, long-distance TOW shots, small group movement. I used the time I put into Hawken to learn because that's what's fun to me.

 

So, yeah. Path of least resistance my ass.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 08 July 2016 - 07:25 AM.

[harmless_kittens]

Well maybe, just maybe, there are others players out there like me who don't want to post their feelings in the forums (can't say I blame them).  We'll never know, I guess.  In the meantime, if you are out there and reading this, just know that you are not alone.

 

And, as I stated previously, and per your suggestions, Harmless_Kittens in not playing this game right now.  I'll try again after the updates.  Thanks again forum folks for at least hearing me out.

[Stormwalker42]

Dunno if you know my history, but I'm a former motorcycle roadracer. Racers race.  If you ain't racing, you ain't a racer.  But if you go to trackdays, everyone's trying to win the trackday.

 

I think what you're really complaining about is that smurfs force the learning curve.   I was against sandbox servers in the past, as I think it will lead to tears after a player leaves the sandbox and encounters 'Hawken uncut'. 

 

Would you believe me if I told you I know someone who would go to a track and race once in a while and he knew he had no chance to win, he just liked racing?  (His own words, by the way).

I know a lot of casual players.  I am one myself.  I am not saying we don't like to win.  Anyone would.  However, it is not why I load up the game.  I play to play. To go out and destroy and be destroyed.  The score at the end of the match is meaningless to me.  My K/D ratio, W/L, MMR, who cares?  My MMR goes up and down more than the stock market.  Ranges from as low as 1350 or so to as high as 1600, mostly depending on my mood.  Don't ask me why, I think it may be venting frustration but I tend to do better when I am in a bad mood.  I am not interested in getting any better.  My play style is such that my effectiveness goes up the more my team backs me, however it doesn't change if they don't.  I tend to dive in, do as much damage as I can and die in a blaze of glory.

Honestly, I have found that I have more fun in rounds where I die more than I kill.  Again, not sure why, just something I noticed.  Dominating other players gives me little to no joy.   Winning a match where I have 5 kills and 12 deaths, now that's fun.   Losing the match the same way?  Oh well, Ces't la Vie!

 

I know alot of people like this.  They aren't interested in playing the competitions, they aren't interested in learning everyone else's tricks to doing better.

 

Someone telling them they are doing it wrong and willing to show them the "right way".  That's an insult.  It's a game.  Don't tell me how to play.  As long as they are playing and having some fun, they are doing it right.   

 

It's plain and simple.  We join a 1400 server as a 1400 player, we want to play against other 1400 players.  1500, maybe 1600 is acceptable as long as the teams are balanced.  You get to a 300 - 1000 point difference.   Over and over.  I will uninstall the game and find something else to do and so will other casual players.  

You might not want to believe it but casual players are what keeps the gaming industry alive.   There are a few elite players.   There are thousands upon thousands of us.   We don't want to chase that money away just so a few players can dominate them in a few rounds.   They will see the game as unbalanced and walk away.   Most of them won't take the time to find a forum in steam or out of it and make a complaint.   We will never see them again and they will never spend a dime on this game.

I just don't see the point of turning these people away.  The game needs them to survive.  In the end, it needs to make a profit to survive.  

[Silverfire]

1400 players want to play with 1400 players

 

2200 players want to play with 2200 players

 

what happens when there's not enough of either to have separate servers

 

because right now, in terms of active players, there's not enough low mmr players and there's not enough high mmr players to keep each population separate

 

so then what do you do

 

leaving the game does not make the problem go away it only magnifies because then there's an even smaller player pool

 

what solves this problem, I'm interested in all of your ideas regarding this question and not the complaints we've heard rehashed a thousand times and the passion you have for playing casually

Edited by Silverfire, 08 July 2016 - 06:06 PM.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

I think a solution is that you get 5 of your scrubbiest friends to install so you can ruin them online then make fun of them in real life. This will make your hawken experience x1000 better. Sure, lots will rage quit but if you can get 1 hooked that will continue to play that's a 20% player base increase. This is s win-win according to money.

[LianiS2]

well i got no idea how to start and finish without beeing too dramatic and sentimental :P so here i go.

 

i loved the game since the start (guilty of leaving for 2 years though :P) I've been in games where my team losses 40-10 or 15. Seen matches where the enemy team consists of new players that dont know what to do and tried to handycap myself to let them room to breath. 

But i cant expect every player to do it. There are ppl that play online games to humiliate others and feel superiority, others that just want to win no matter what. 

Well i understand pretty much everyone in here. Everyone want to have fun and play a game with a challenge of their ability. 

 

kittens i understand your view and unfortunately dont have a solution. I have a solution for me but i'm masochistic in a way. Even if i lose 40-15 i ll still try, even if the AA has 5 ppl on it i ll try and help. I try never to leave a game, did it in the past but for some reason since i started playing again i just find it unfair for the other ppl playing with me. I play till the end hoping that the next game will be more fun, more balanced.

 

Most times i like the challenge of playing better players just like many others. But when i fail as an individual i just avoid the better players alone go back to team play and try to back everyone and do some dmg in order to win. In the end if i see that i just suck at the game i'll go play something easy like a mindless 64 metro BF3 meat-grinder :P.

i believe just one 2200 MMR player against 3 1600 MMR players could lose. Teamwork is the solution, at least it helps :P

 

There are many things that i would love to say but have already been said so there is no meaning in repeating. 

 

As for a solution? i personally dont know, there isnt an easy one. We as a community could do PR work and try and promote the game but in an ocean of games i dont know what can we do, even with the known names in the community trying and making videos still there isnt much of a change.

 

Well these are my 22 cents on the matter. I'll stop here as i could write for a long time rambling about everything :P

 

 

Spoiler

 

can I just interject in the middle of all of this and say that I identify with all of you, Ishmael, Butt, Amid, Storm, even you kittens, on a personal level because I can see where every single one of you are coming from and I understand kind of and I just want to hug every single one of you in this thread (even you Amid) and say "it's gonna be ok"
 

 

PS: im gonna steal a hug :P (grabs a pillow to hug & goes to a corner xP

[Stormwalker42]

 

because right now, in terms of active players, there's not enough low mmr players and there's not enough high mmr players to keep each population separate

 

so then what do you do

 

leaving the game does not make the problem go away it only magnifies because then there's an even smaller player pool

 

what solves this problem, I'm interested in all of your ideas regarding this question and not the complaints we've heard rehashed a thousand times and the passion you have for playing casually

 

First, I want to thank you for supporting the fact that this has been a problem that has been repeated over and over again.   Without the necessity of me linking thread after thread as proof.  I will accept "thousands" as an exaggeration however the damage done to the community over time has been great.

 

The damage done was great enough that the devs that bought the game thought a release on consoles, isolated from the current community was the only way to keep the game alive.  That alone, is a statement and a half.  

 

Second, what can we do?  

I have seen player after player who know the game, quit a round when they find they are on the losing side of an imbalance.  Of course, we don't want that loss on our W/L record.   However, these same people will happily dominate and wreck others, when they find themselves on the winning side of an imbalance.  I don't understand.  If they are in an imbalanced match.   Why not just quit from either side if they truly want to help the situation?

 

The fact is, the answer is simple.   They need to CHOOSE to be proactive to help the situation.   These people are too mired in their own right to just press the play button and accept wherever it lands them, even when they know they don't belong there.

 

I have seen MANY occasions where there are many servers all full, each with a small group of higher MMR players dominating the server.   These same people could be having a lot more fun, if they bothered to take a step back and TRY to group themselves with others of their level.

 

How you say?   Miraculous systems like "the friends list" and "chat".    You find yourself in a server with a few other higher MMRs dominating:  "Hey guys, I am getting a high MMR group going please send me a friend request if you want to play on that server".

 

 

But that would require doing something or asking for help.

 

Right back at you.   Yes.  Being proactive and part of the solution.   Not using the matchmaker you know is broken and blaming the computer.   

 

Also, I know how this makes people upset.  Sometimes there is no one on your level to play against.   This happens to me too.  I find 4 or 5 1800 MMR servers.  I close the game, play something else and come back later.  

 

If you are high MMR and find only 1400 MMR servers with no higher levels on them.  You can't find a few people to join you on another server.  It won't kill you to do the same.

 

The sad excuse of saying that you supposedly take no enjoyment from dominating low levels but refuse not to play, because this is your favorite game, is just that.  A very sad excuse.   

 

Thing is, this thread, on top of dozens of others like it.  Won't solve the problem.  It's a minority of the community that care enough about the issue to take action.  This is another reason smurfs are used.   They can create an anonymous profile.  Treat people any way they want.  Then come back to these forums and pretend to be whoever they want to be, with no one the wiser.

 

I would love to believe that the larger percentage of the community cares enough about the game to make a difference.  I am sorry, I don't.  I know for a fact that there are many of the players here, who consider themselves the "gamer elite".  Who look at these threads as whining, complaining, what's the word?  Oh yes "Salty".

 

They don't understand casual gamers, any more then I understand whatever they think they are.

 

However, you wanted an answer, there it is.   For as much good as it's going to do.

Edited by Stormwalker42, 09 July 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Hyginos]

How you say?   Miraculous systems like "the friends list" and "chat".    You find yourself in a server with a few other higher MMRs dominating:  "Hey guys, I am getting a high MMR group going please send me a friend request if you want to play on that server".

 

Oh, you mean that thing we've been doing for 2+ years? The first War Wednesday started when tickle and some folks at TAW just up and invited every high MMR player (and I say "high" in the most generous of ways, considering I was one of the ones invited) they could get their hands on into a server. The impromptu invite mayhem lobbies used to happen all the time around TPG seasons 2-3.

 

So why doesn't that work now? Because at any given time these days there are maybe 200 total people playing hawken on PC in the world. I would guess that the number of players who have participated in any competitive hawken and still play regularly is in the single digits.

 

But hey. How dare people be good at Hawken in the same server as you right?

[Silverfire]

First, I want to thank you for supporting the fact that this has been a problem that has been repeated over and over again.   Without the necessity of me linking thread after thread as proof.  I will accept "thousands" as an exaggeration however the damage done to the community over time has been great.

 

The damage done was great enough that the devs that bought the game thought a release on consoles, isolated from the current community was the only way to keep the game alive.  That alone, is a statement and a half.  

 

Second, what can we do?  

I have seen player after player who know the game, quit a round when they find they are on the losing side of an imbalance.  Of course, we don't want that loss on our W/L record.   However, these same people will happily dominate and wreck others, when they find themselves on the winning side of an imbalance.  I don't understand.  If they are in an imbalanced match.   Why not just quit from either side if they truly want to help the situation?

 

The fact is, the answer is simple.   They need to CHOOSE to be proactive to help the situation.   These people are too mired in their own right to just press the play button and accept wherever it lands them, even when they know they don't belong there.

 

I have seen MANY occasions where there are many servers all full, each with a small group of higher MMR players dominating the server.   These same people could be having a lot more fun, if they bothered to take a step back and TRY to group themselves with others of their level.

 

How you say?   Miraculous systems like "the friends list" and "chat".    You find yourself in a server with a few other higher MMRs dominating:  "Hey guys, I am getting a high MMR group going please send me a friend request if you want to play on that server".

 

 

 

we could have a lot more fun in servers with people around our own skill range maybe

 

problem is there aren't enough of us on at the same time

 

not all of us are going to be on at the same time

 

newsflash we are usually not on at the same time

 

why should casual players get to do whatever they want when high skill players are told to "organize their own matches?" isn't that unfair to the high skill players? forced to do more work, and how come casual lowbie players get to sit around and cry victim when high tier players are just as much of a victim as you are? We can't find matches for ourselves either.

 

We have heard this argument as a "compromise" dozens of times. We cannot find servers for us.  We have to use the matchmaker.  There is literally no alternative.  I don't want to sit hitting refresh servers for 10 minutes and find nothing, and you wouldn't either.  I can't come back in 2 hours and check again, I have life to live.  

 

 

Right back at you.   Yes.  Being proactive and part of the solution.   Not using the matchmaker you know is broken and blaming the computer.   

 

Also, I know how this makes people upset.  Sometimes there is no one on your level to play against.   This happens to me too.  I find 4 or 5 1800 MMR servers.  I close the game, play something else and come back later.  

 

If you are high MMR and find only 1400 MMR servers with no higher levels on them.  You can't find a few people to join you on another server.  It won't kill you to do the same.

 

The sad excuse of saying that you supposedly take no enjoyment from dominating low levels but refuse not to play, because this is your favorite game, is just that.  A very sad excuse.   

 

Thing is, this thread, on top of dozens of others like it.  Won't solve the problem.  It's a minority of the community that care enough about the issue to take action.  This is another reason smurfs are used.   They can create an anonymous profile.  Treat people any way they want.  Then come back to these forums and pretend to be whoever they want to be, with no one the wiser.

 

I would love to believe that the larger percentage of the community cares enough about the game to make a difference.  I am sorry, I don't.  I know for a fact that there are many of the players here, who consider themselves the "gamer elite".  Who look at these threads as whining, complaining, what's the word?  Oh yes "Salty".

 

They don't understand casual gamers, any more then I understand whatever they think they are.

 

However, you wanted an answer, there it is.   For as much good as it's going to do.

 

If we don't use the matchmaker, we don't find servers, period.  That's been a constant for years, unless there's a community event going on in a private server (which are not accessible through the matchmaking queue) and there might be enough room there.  We have been organizing events for ourselves for years in order for high tier players to play.  So we have tried your little suggestion to use chat and use our friends list. 

 

Let me ask you a question, do you enjoy playing with the same 5 people, over and over and over again, day after day after day?  Would you?

 

And yes, dominating lowbies isn't as fun (but the game is still fun in and of itself), but again, telling us to find some more of us isn't really feasible because there are so few of us anyway.  We all don't play at the same times.  I don't have the luxury to be able to close the game and come back in a few hours to see if there's another server for me to join.  I would assume many other people are like that too.   This is not an excuse.  This is reality.  Sometimes we meet in game.  We see each other on our friends list as active.  We invite each other and play with each other.  We do this.  

 

And when I want to play, I want to play.  Would you like it if people were saying you couldn't play a game you wanted to play?  This is why people don't like this argument.  This argument doesn't work.  People don't want to be invisibly ordered around by total strangers to play or not to play and when they can play because that's not how it works.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So no, I don't think a proactive player approach will solve things. We've tried it already with community events.  It might help alleviate the issue slightly, but it leaves the problem intact. It does absolutely nothing to correct the core problem, that there are not enough players in order to segregate the playerbases via MMR.  This is the core problem.  This is the issue that's causing all the problems, not players individually choosing the stomp servers.  How to we address the real problem, the problem that, if solved, the other issues would decrease in magnitude.  

 

How do we solve our population problem?  This is the question I would like to see your response to, and anyone's response to, for that matter.

Edited by Silverfire, 09 July 2016 - 12:09 PM.

[Nept]

ALL OF THESE NOVEL SOLUTIONS!

[talon70]

 

How do we solve our population problem?  This is the question I would like to see your response to, and anyone's response to, for that matter.

Change the splash screens, remove the scanner and announce 'recently updated' on steam

 

Well, we have been told an 'overhaul' is coming and maybe that is what they are waiting for but I would do a massive email blast campaign and pull in the "many partners" to help. The devs need to engage their community at a totally different level. Thats one of the main things adhesive did that really attracted me to this game to begin with. What about the meetings with the likes of Khang Le and the many other "exciting contacts"  we have been teased with. {insert 'how bout a cup of' image here} . Offer them and companies like nvidia some future consideration for endorsements and spam the name drops as much as fuzzy possible.

 

I was first exposed to the game in February 2013 because I bought an nvidia board and it had a free $50 hwk coupon (i have never used it. spawned and got immediately killed about 10 times and uninstalled. dam kids, but that exposure was the familiarity it took for me to notice it and play it at steam). The point is I would use use every avenue possible, many like twiterfacebook and e-blasts have little cost to response if done correctly, Make new partners like maybe battlebots or find alternative demographics to hit.

 

Why no linux port for steam os and the nvidia shield? Why no VR teases at all? At least put someone "on it" and dangle a fuzzy carrot.

 

All the added exposure would add players and now is the best time. The problems is there is zero plan for pilot retention that I can see I might argue the opposite is occurring.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Talon, I'll take your coupon and put it to good use. You know the RAIDEROSITY looses himself to dance quite a bit !

[Stormwalker42]

 

why should casual players get to do whatever they want when high skill players are told to "organize their own matches?" isn't that unfair to the high skill players? forced to do more work, and how come casual lowbie players get to sit around and cry victim when high tier players are just as much of a victim as you are? We can't find matches for ourselves either.

 

 

It's a different market.  You want them there because they will pay money and keep the servers going.   Had this not been such an issue, the devs might not have had to port the game to consoles to make enough money to keep the game going.  You seem to ignore the point that the population has gotten so bad, that if it wasn't for the plan to launch on console, this game would probably be dead already.   You would have no game to play at all.  

 

You ask why should the casual players get to do whatever they want?  Because we need them there.  You will keep coming back.  They won't.  You care about the game.   They don't.  To them it's just another game.  If they are having fun, they will invest more money into doing so.   If not, they will go away and not look back.   We need to make them want to stay so there IS a game for us to come back to.   I can't make the point any better than that. 

 

 

 

How do we solve our population problem?  This is the question I would like to see your response to, and anyone's response to, for that matter.

 

Stop chasing players away.  

 

People keep wondering why nothing has been done for the PC side already.  I see these ideas and questions for how to get the PC side to start growing again. The answer to why nothing has been done yet is pretty obvious.  I seriously believe that the devs are unsure whether or not the PC side can be saved.  

 

I am unsure of that as well.

Edited by Stormwalker42, 09 July 2016 - 03:47 PM.

[Epsilon_Knight]

I think Stormwalker is on to something.  If all the players with more than 1600 (1700?) MMR just quit playing when there's not a pre-organized server available, PC Hawken will be saved!

[TheButtSatisfier]

Addressing PC Hawken's population problem by telling everyone to stop smurfing is as effective as (and has many parallels with) trying to reduce teenage pregnancy rates with abstinence-only educational programs.

 

IF ONLY WE COULD FIND THE CONVICTION TO STOP SMURFING THEN RELOADED WOULD STOP PUNISHING US FOR OUR SINS!

 

Let us pray.

 

Our Josh who art in Heaven,

Hawken be thy name.

Thy updates come,

Thy development be done,

In production, as it is in testing.

 

Give us this day our daily threadlocks,

And forgive us our smurfing,

As we forgive those who smurf against us.

 

And lead us not into development hell,

But deliver us from Howken.

 

Amen.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 09 July 2016 - 08:54 PM.

[talon70]

 

Stop chasing players away.  

 

 

I chased all the top players away. It had nothing to do with not addressing cheating, no fixes, no new content, lack of dev communication and outright misinformation. It was me

[Stormwalker42]

 

Addressing PC Hawken's population problem by telling everyone to stop smurfing is as effective as (and has many parallels with) trying to reduce teenage pregnancy rates with abstinence-only educational programs.

 

 

Perfect analogy, thank you and I am glad it got so many Likes.   The issue you compared it to is mostly caused by immaturity and and an unwillingness to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

This is exactly the issue here as well.

 

It's the devs, fault, lack of content, lack of updates, its my fault because I am a casual player.  It's everyone else's fault.  You have a right to play.

 

OK Children, you win.  That's all that matters right?

[talon70]

Perfect analogy, thank you and I am glad it got so many Likes.   The issue you compared it to is mostly caused by immaturity and and an unwillingness to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

This is exactly the issue here as well.

 

It's the devs, fault, lack of content, lack of updates, its my fault because I am a casual player.  It's everyone else's fault.  You have a right to play.

 

OK Children, you win.  That's all that matters right?

I actually believe the new owners of the game have intentionally and willingly pushed away veteran player base purposely  with a  thinking "those players have already spent the money they are going to and won't like changes we are going to do anyway, so lets get rid of as many as possible in hopes of less negative fallout on unsocial media".

[Stormwalker42]

I actually believe the new owners of the game have intentionally and willingly pushed away veteran player base purposely  with a  thinking "those players have already spent the money they are going to and won't like changes we are going to do anyway, so lets get rid of as many as possible in hopes of less negative fallout on unsocial media".

 

If you look at from the perspective that this isn't the audience they need to make happy, you may be right.  They don't need to make you folks happy.  You are already playing the game.  They need to draw a NEW audience to keep the game alive.  This is basis of the argument here.  We need to draw and keep new players, not chase them away.

 

As for negative fallout, of course they don't want that.  Especially when the negative fallout is based on a narrow, preconception of a minority group.   This is part of the problem that I have with the complaints about the changes.  I have said it before.  You are basing all your likes and dislikes on your view of an unfinished product.

 

What Hawken WAS when you have been playing it for the past years, may be nothing like what the new devs want it to be in the future. 

Edited by Stormwalker42, 10 July 2016 - 02:53 PM.

[hestoned]

i have more time in a hawken server than most of you combined and i have no idea what you guys are talking about.

who are these players talking down to others or smurfs being rude and saying mean things? i have never seen it happen unless its some dumb internet fight with 2 people going back and forth with name calling. thats the worst ive ever seen in hawken. also lol nobody gives a fuzzy bunny about kdr. mine is BARELY over 3. i dont understand where these accusations come from concerning players better than you. lol we dont have some agenda. im playing a free online mech arena shooter that came out like 5 years ago. im playing cause its fun lol why is that hard to understand. and yea im totally farming that MMR. making that SWEET .001 gain in 1600 lobbys. oh man what a steal

 

look i freaking bought a used xbone on ebay just so i could play hawken death match with more than 1 person who isnt in brazil. thats how much i love this game. trust me non of the "high tier players" are out to get noobs. we are simply enjoying the game and we are just better than you. get over it

[Kindos7]

Yes Child.  There is always at least one troll that crawls out of the refuse heap during threads like these.   It's ok, mama will be in to change your diaper and give you a cookie, now be quiet please.

 

Nothing he said is false, or troll like.

The only one acting like a troll here is you right now.

[Hyginos]

Yes Child.  There is always at least one troll that crawls out of the refuse heap during threads like these.   It's ok, mama will be in to change your diaper and give you a cookie, now be quiet please.

 

You don't get to dismiss the opinion of someone who has almost 3 times as much play time on a single scout as you do in the entire game just because you don't like what he has to say.

 

Contrary to popular belief, calling someone a child on the internet does not instantly grant you argument victory or any sort of authority. If you want to actually have a discussion instead of just spouting, don't talk down to people. It is, ironically, childish to do so.

[Stormwalker42]

You don't get to dismiss the opinion of someone who has almost 3 times as much play time on a single scout as you do in the entire game just because you don't like what he has to say.

 

Contrary to popular belief, calling someone a child on the internet does not instantly grant you argument victory or any sort of authority. If you want to actually have a discussion instead of just spouting, don't talk down to people. It is, ironically, childish to do so.

 

What is the next "comment" going to be?  Git gud?   Or "Salty".  The whole post was barely in English in the first place.  That wasn't an opinion.   It was an attack.   I don't take garbage like that from annoying little children, despite how much time they might have playing a game.   He was the one talking down to me, so he got back what he spewed out.

 

It's funny how he says he doesn't see all the toxic comments on the servers, yet he is toxic himself.   These are the problem players on this game.   You want point a finger at why people walk away?   It's people like him.   Of course he can't see it, he is doing it himself. 

 

I call them as I see them.  Sorry if you don't like that.

[MomOw]

I call them as I see them.  Sorry if you don't like that.

 

[Silverfire]

Perfect analogy, thank you and I am glad it got so many Likes.   The issue you compared it to is mostly caused by immaturity and and an unwillingness to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

This is exactly the issue here as well.

 

It's the devs, fault, lack of content, lack of updates, its my fault because I am a casual player.  It's everyone else's fault.  You have a right to play.

 

OK Children, you win.  That's all that matters right?

 

I mean having no developers for like 2 years kind of counts as a significant contributor to Hawken's struggling state, right?  Being a casual player has nothing to do with the problem.  We are not condemning you for being a casual player, we are neither condemning you for being a lower MMR than me, or anyone for that matter.  Different people have different skill caps, that's just life.  Playing a game with a dubious future, with the sense that we may never get the patch we desire or deserve (given we've been waiting since 2014 for literally anything on PC). 

 

I have a right to play.  You have a right to play.  Everyone has a right to play.  It's a free to play game that came out in 2012.  Everyone and anyone should be able to play if they want to.

 

It is not your fault for being a casual player, let me emphasize that.  It is not your fault for being a casual player.  You choose your own level of involvement in the game. That is 9003% okay. Stopping smurfing (which largely has, for the people on these forums at least, I cannot speak for high MMR players not on the forums), won't solve a population problem.  It'll help.  Stopping server stomps will most definitely help.  But how do we stop that with a low population? The beforementioned issues are merely symptoms of this larger problem of low population. People will inevitably run into each other with a small population, and stomps will inevitably happen.  So, therefore, how do we solve a low population problem?  You cannot say stopping stomps because that is a symptom of a low population, as I stated before.  The solution must be elsewhere.  

 

What is the next "comment" going to be?  Git gud?   Or "Salty".  The whole post was barely in English in the first place.  That wasn't an opinion.   It was an attack.   I don't take garbage like that from annoying little children, despite how much time they might have playing a game.   He was the one talking down to me, so he got back what he spewed out.

 

It's funny how he says he doesn't see all the toxic comments on the servers, yet he is toxic himself.   These are the problem players on this game.   You want point a finger at why people walk away?   It's people like him.   Of course he can't see it, he is doing it himself. 

 

I call them as I see them.  Sorry if you don't like that.

 

If you have no desire to "git gud" then fine.  So be it.  I'm not going to burn you at the stake for it.  Also, I don't know why you're resorting to attacks.  hestoned, to my interpretation of his post, was not attacking you.  He was combating statements you have said in previous posts.

 

He is allowed to do this because this is an internet forum where you're allowed to speak your mind on a subject.  

 

You have stated beforehand that high tier high MMR players stomp lowbies to pad their KDRs, to farm MMR, to cause some sort of casual player exodus.  hestoned countered with his own personal opinion on those precise points (because this an internet forum and we're allowed to do that, right?) because he has had a different experience as a high MMR player.  He explicitly states that what you have stated is false in his experience, from his perspective as a high tier player.  He enjoys the game and he plays the game because he enjoys.  Is he to be at fault because he likes the game and wants to play? It's as simple as that.  

 

By using aggressive and combative language, you are only encouraging verbal vitriol and malcontent on these forums.  So how about you take it a step back and chill out, and write something cohesive and logical instead of spewing nonsense like "hey little kid you want a fuzzy bunnyng cookie with that server stomp?" which by the way, contributes to the discussion in no way, shape, or form.  If you want a good discussion, you must be a good participant as well, otherwise you've lost.  That doesn't just apply here, but in life as well.  Being a good participant means at least attempting not to throw petty, pointless insults around, which only serve to decrease your own credibility.  You are by all means allowed to throw insults around, this is a free internet, but the more you do so, the worse you make your own situation.  Kind of like if you're in a burning building.  You can choose to grab the fire extinguisher, or you can choose to light a box of matches.  Throwing insults is paramount to dumping some lighter fluid on the ground and then a lit box of matches.

 

I think you're credible because you have an opinion and you've voiced it, but the more you throw around silly insults, the less credible you become and the less serious people become towards you.  You want people to respect you and your opinions and statements? Talk like an adult.  I want you to keep talking, this discussion is good.  Just...chill out.

Edited by Silverfire, 11 July 2016 - 06:13 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

The whole post was barely in English in the first place.

 

does someone typing without capitals throw you off? because i keep reading and re-reading hestoned's post and it's nothing but english in there. i just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing because it's so hard to understand you

[_incitatus]

 

It's funny how he says he doesn't see all the toxic comments on the servers, yet he is toxic himself.   These are the problem players on this game.   You want point a finger at why people walk away?   It's people like him.   Of course he can't see it, he is doing it himself. 

 

I call them as I see them.  Sorry if you don't like that.

 

Hestoned is a toxic player now?  Hahahaha, do you do comedy in your spare time because you are cracking me up in here...

[Stormwalker42]

Time playing a broken, unfinished game, is meaningless.   You do not deserve anything.  Your opinion on what changes should take place are still just that, opinions.

 

The tone of the post that I objected to was because this person disregards this behavior or did not see it, it doesn't exist.   He basically called me a liar, I don't accept that.

 

I am looking forward to the changes the new devs are making.   The more a change upsets this crowd, the happier I am to see it implemented.

 

You don't want to admit it but this crowd has done as much damage to the game as the lack of updates has.   The positive input you claim only helps yourselves.

 

You create servers and leagues for yourselves.   Training videos and guides so more players will play like you.  All you care about is your own ability to play the way you want the game to be played.

 

This attitude is selfish and immature.   I have tried to be nice about saying this.

 

If the new devs are looking to alienate this group and start again.  I agree with them.  One of the best things for this game would be for you to go play another game and be replaced by all new players.

[_incitatus]

When Hawken went to Steam at one point there were 8000 concurrent players.  What happened to them?  Were all of them chased off by elite players?  Did a few dozen players run off several thousand?  Or was it something else?

Edited by _incitatus, 11 July 2016 - 06:31 AM.

[ThereIsOnlyOne]

You create servers and leagues for yourselves.   Training videos and guides so more players will play like you.  All you care about is your own ability to play the way you want the game to be played.

 

So you would prefer... what? That people always be bad? That they do nothing and just pubstomp?

 

I have read through this entire thread and your argument is incomprehensible and contradictory at this point.

[Hyginos]

Time playing a broken, unfinished game, is meaningless.   You do not deserve anything.  Your opinion on what changes should take place are still just that, opinions.

Let me say for a second that I care a lot about sharpening pencils. If someone has spent thousands of hours sharpening pencils, been widely considered one of the pest pencil sharpeners in the world for years, and sharpened the second most pencils of any one in the world, would it not behoove of me to listen if he enters a discussion?

But as you say, your opinions are just that: opinions.
 

 

The tone of the post that I objected to was because this person disregards this behavior or did not see it, it doesn't exist.   He basically called me a liar, I don't accept that.

Hestoned simply stated that his experience, anecdotally, was in contrary to yours.
 

 

I am looking forward to the changes the new devs are making.   The more a change upsets this crowd, the happier I am to see it implemented.

Is this just venomous for the sake of it? Ascension turned out pretty well right? The best way forward is totally to just throw away what amounts to hundreds of thousands of hours of free play testing analysis that people are giving away for free.

^sarcasm.

 

 

You don't want to admit it but this crowd has done as much damage to the game as the lack of updates has.   The positive input you claim only helps yourselves.

 
TPG gave players something to do while the previous developer was in liquidation. The league has always been and will always be welcoming to any and all comers. The idea that an isolated pocket of comp players ran off 8000 casual players is simplifying a bit.

 

 

You create servers and leagues for yourselves.   Training videos and guides so more players will play like you.  All you care about is your own ability to play the way you want the game to be played.

As you suggested we do:
 

How you say?   Miraculous systems like "the friends list" and "chat".    You find yourself in a server with a few other higher MMRs dominating:  "Hey guys, I am getting a high MMR group going please send me a friend request if you want to play on that server".

All you care about is your own ability to play the way you want the game to be played. Pot, kettle.
 

 

This attitude is selfish and immature.   I have tried to be nice about saying this.

Eh. Maybe. Probably a reflexive response to being called children at the first shred of disagreement.
 

 

If the new devs are looking to alienate this group and start again.  I agree with them.  One of the best things for this game would be for you to go play another game and be replaced by all new players.

From a business perspective I can see why they would, but the next version of "this group" will come to be eventually, as will the one after that, and so on. The competitive community exists to feed a want by a part of the population. People who want to play at a high level aren't going to stop doing that just because one set of players went away.

 

 

 

EDIT: dammit poopslinger.

Edited by Hyginos, 11 July 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Edit: Until then I'm gonna smurf and pubstomp and shittalk all the scrubs. Drive off the weak with orblording in 1800 mmr servers. We don't want scrubs like stormbitch here giving advice to the noobs to make them pussies too.

Hahaha, I almost spit out my coffee from laughing... Almost.

[coldform]

Taking what has been said in thus thread several times and in other threads several times, the personal observation - both direct and in direct (smurfs?) - and the consensus of the vocal hawken community is

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH PLAYERS FOR MATCHMAKING/SERVER BROWSER TO WORK CORRECTLY IN FINDING A FAIR MATCH.

It's that simple.

Believe me, I have emotionally, mentally, and physically exhausted myself on helping to alleviate this problem by focusing on player rentention. I have welcomed new players with open arms, worked with others to design and implement training that both increases mechanical skill - the vital part of playing hawken - and encourages positive teamwork. I have spoon fed this information to new pilots, and have seen the fruit of my labor.

There are those that have commented in these threads that have witnessed this, and have been a great help in assisting me to do this.

Above all of this, those that have helped me, have also attempted to do the same thing and multiple levels of skill (my particular subset being on of the lesser skilled set), and all of these folks have something in common:

NO MATTER WHAT SKILL LEVEL, HAVE FUN AND KEEP PLAYING.

Most of these folks will even try to handicap themselves to even the playing ground.

Gdi, I wish I kept all of my footage. Prolly 100+ hours.

[harmless_kittens]

Sorry I brought it up.  This was not my intention.  DEVs, please close.  Thanks.

[Silverfire]

Sorry I brought it up. This was not my intention. DEVs, please close. Thanks.

Regardless of what became of this thread, thank you for speaking out about a topic you feel needs addressing. Keep it up.

[TheButtSatisfier]

If the new devs are looking to alienate this group and start again.  I agree with them.  One of the best things for this game would be for you to go play another game and be replaced by all new players.

 

"This community has thrust their critical thinking inside me without my consent, so the sooner they can be replaced with another community as ignorant as I am, the better!"