125 replies to this topic

[crockrocket]

You ignore it, so whats the point.   This thread, among many others in these forums as well as steam forums.  Many people have come to the forums and complained about the every same thing.   You don't want to admit it.

You don't want to allow for experience with this very situation.  So what's the point of arguing it.   You admitted yourself, you don't play the public servers, so you can't see it, can you?

 

The issue exists, no matter how much you want it not to.

 

Whether or not the issue exists is unimportant. The real issue is not smurfs, the real issue is the population. You can take away every smurf in the world and it isn't going to change a damn thing.

[Stormwalker42]

Fact is, you can't put the words "fact is" in front of anything you want.

 

Show me the data.

 

These people aren't destroying the community. These people ARE the community.

 

Over the years, in forums and in game, I have seen more people, state "I am not going to stay here for this garbage." (or something similar) and leave the game, then there are veterans left in the game.   

 

This isn't a community, its a remnant of one.  A very small remnant.  Not large enough to support the game long term.

 

The game still running means nothing.  As the current devs have kept the PC server alive these past 18 months, while planning to launch for the console.  Without the promise of that possible extra income, we don't know that this game would still be here.  

[DallasCreeper]

snip

The thing I'm getting here is that you create an argument with no evidence and Amid provides a counter-argument with evidence. You blatantly ignore Amid's evidence, then, when asked for proof for your argument, state that Amid will ignore your evidence, because he is so "arrogant". That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[Stormwalker42]

The thing I'm getting here is that you create an argument with no evidence and Amid provides a counter-argument with evidence. You blatantly ignore Amid's evidence, then, when asked for proof for your argument, state that Amid will ignore your evidence, because he is so "arrogant". That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

I am not trying to be condescending here, but I am not going to get into the trolling tactic about evidence, OK?   You want to go back and search years of Steam forums and posts here to find threads about this VERY same topic, you be my guest.  The in game chat, unless I happen to take a screenshot and keep it, does not get recorded.   Again, it doesn't mean it does not exist.  I have seen it, others have seen it.   It happens regularly enough for me to believe that every vet that plays the public servers has seen it as well.  However you would never admit to it, because it doesn't support your argument.

[Stormwalker42]

Whether or not the issue exists is unimportant. The real issue is not smurfs, the real issue is the population. You can take away every smurf in the world and it isn't going to change a damn thing.

 

So chasing away new people adds to the population?  This is the point.  You say that population is the problem, yet the problem chases away new people. 

 

How many times do I have to explain that the vast majority of high mmr players DO NOT INTENTIONALLY JOIN LOW MMR SERVERS



99% of the time I'm playing there's literally NOBODY else playing that has a similar mmr to mine. Therefore my choices are as follows: play another game or play in whatever server matchmaker drops me in, which is usually the highest mmr server that exists at the time. I'm not going to not play my favorite game ever simply because there aren't many people around my mmr or whatever, that's silly, and I guarantee you I get about as much enjoyment stomping people as they do being rekt.

 

Are you trying to say you don't enjoy playing your favorite game but yet still play it because it's your favorite game?   That doesn't make a lot of sense.   

 

Again, as I pointed out above, wouldn't you and any other people who love the game so much, want to do anything within their means to resolve the problem, instead of doing everything in their means to make the problem worse?

[_incitatus]

So chasing away new people adds to the population?  This is the point.  You say that population is the problem, yet the problem chases away new people. 

 

 

The "problem" is not the elite players chasing away the population.  The population problem is due to no new content in 2+ years, the lack of any kind of meaningful updates/balance passes, and long periods of silence from developers.  The problem is player retention and this is not the responsibility of the anyone playing the game. 

[ATX22]

The "problem" is not the elite players chasing away the population.  The population problem is due to no new content in 2+ years, the lack of any kind of meaningful updates/balance passes, and long periods of silence from developers.  The problem is player retention and this is not the responsibility of the anyone playing the game. 

 

Wasn't it Josh that posted something along the lines of new players being driven off in a matter of weeks?  That's not necessarily due to lack of content.  IMHO, it's not exclusively problem #1 or problem #2, but the result of the cumulative effects of many problems plaguing Hawken.  A mix of an already low population, Hawken being a sci-fi FPS mech game, no new content, server issues, dev silence and high-MMR players stomping everyone else for starters.

 

Sure, none of this is the responsibility to regular players in Hawken, but that still doesn't magically exclude the effects of elite players being thrown in with super-not-elite players.

[Stormwalker42]

The "problem" is not the elite players chasing away the population.  The population problem is due to no new content in 2+ years, the lack of any kind of meaningful updates/balance passes, and long periods of silence from developers.  The problem is player retention and this is not the responsibility of the anyone playing the game. 

 

That is PART of the problem.  Yes there is no question that lack of development caused the issue.   There is also no question that the negative attitude of part of the community has made the problem much worse then it could have been.   

Player retention may not be our responsibility, but it IS in our best interests.   More players make any multi-player game better.   People who love this game so much, should be willing to make sacrifices in the game's best interests.

[talon70]

Amid, for reasons that should be obvious to you by now, I stopped reading after the first line or so.  It's also why my son is not allowed to read or post in these forums.  Sorry :(

At what age will your kid be old or mature enough to read the online forum of the game he plays? Do you hold his hand and coddle him in every thing he does?  Do you home school him so he doesn't hear or learn the swear words kids say at the public school? If they ever fix voip you better not let her play.

[_incitatus]

Wasn't it Josh that posted something along the lines of new players being driven off in a matter of weeks?  That's not necessarily due to lack of content.  IMHO, it's not exclusively problem #1 or problem #2, but the result of the cumulative effects of many problems plaguing Hawken.  A mix of an already low population, Hawken being a sci-fi FPS mech game, no new content, server issues, dev silence and high-MMR players stomping everyone else for starters.

 

Sure, none of this is the responsibility to regular players in Hawken, but that still doesn't magically exclude the effects of elite players being thrown in with super-not-elite players.

 

So, should the elite players just stop playing?  That's one reason why the pop is so low.  All the good players left along side the not so great players.  All we are left with is the ends of the skill spectrum, really good players and players that just started.  The middle-of-the-road players are largely gone.

 

It would be great if the population was up, or if there were "bootcamp servers", or whatever.  But we don't have these things.  So, what do you expect a really good player to do in the meantime?

 

The effects of elite players being thrown into low level matches should be addressed by the devs because its in the dev's best interests to have as many players as possible.  No player should have to sit and worry about how they are affecting the health of a game because of where the game's matchmaker places them.

[TheButtSatisfier]

So chasing away new people adds to the population?  This is the point.  You say that population is the problem, yet the problem chases away new people. 

 

That same population sets up 1 on 1 training for new players, posts guides on the forum, hosts community events, and maintains pretty much the only competitive league for this game. Any one of those characteristics has some positive effect on getting new players and retaining existing ones.

 

What's the magnitude of those positive actions? We don't know because we lack the evidence to say. Which is the same amount of evidence that anyone has regarding how smurfing has driven players away from Hawken.

[harmless_kittens]

What about this?  What if Reloaded were to send "Exit Interviews" to account email addresses that haven't logged into Hawken for, say, 30 days in a row?  They could ask them if they intend to return, ask them why they left, and what they'd like to see happen to get them back to playing again.  In all my years of gaming I NEVER understood why more companies don't do this, to increase player retention.  I've only ever received one such survey after I left a game, and I even got a personal reply to my concerns from the game creators.  It didn't bring me back (couldn't afford the monthly fee anymore), but at least that developer KNEW why I had left the game.

Edited by harmless_kittens, 07 July 2016 - 03:15 PM.

[Hyginos]

 In all my years of gaming I NEVER understood why more companies don't do this, to increase player retention.

 

Survey response bias.

[Stormwalker42]

That same population sets up 1 on 1 training for new players, posts guides on the forum, hosts community events, and maintains pretty much the only competitive league for this game. Any one of those characteristics has some positive effect on getting new players and retaining existing ones.

 

What's the magnitude of those positive actions? We don't know because we lack the evidence to say. Which is the same amount of evidence that anyone has regarding how smurfing has driven players away from Hawken.

 

All positive traits, yes.  However they effect a minority of the population.   Casual players won't be interested in any of these things.  Also, any player that shows up and gets chased away by the negative part of the community, will never have a chance to find out about and take advantage of any of these things.

[ATX22]

So, should the elite players just stop playing?  That's one reason why the pop is so low.  All the good players left along side the not so great players.  All we are left with is the ends of the skill spectrum, really good players and players that just started.  The middle-of-the-road players are largely gone.

 

It would be great if the population was up, or if there were "bootcamp servers", or whatever.  But we don't have these things.  So, what do you expect a really good player to do in the meantime?

 

The effects of elite players being thrown into low level matches should be addressed by the devs because its in the dev's best interests to have as many players as possible.  No player should have to sit and worry about how they are affecting the health of a game because of where the game's matchmaker places them.

 

Should elite players stop playing?  Nope.  Honestly, there is no catch-all perfect answer to the problem.  Closest suggestion I can really even think of would be to ask elite players to just use their best judgement with the future of this game in mind.  I can't speak for other "middle of the road" players, but I stopped playing Hawken because I got tired of the over competitive keyboard commandos jumping into otherwise casual PUB games, throwing the balancing way off and barking orders/tips/insults/demands/you name it into chat.  Crappy performing servers, the air dodging, TTK tweaks along with various weapon buffs/nerfs didn't help either.  But that's me, and I'm just waiting to see what Reloaded does with the PC version of this game before I give it another chance.

 

Yes, it would be nice if the population was back up, but without some serious changes to Hawken's game mechanics or a constant barrage of must-have content, it'd end up right back to where it is now after a quick population boost.  

 

No player has to worry about how they're affecting the health of the game.  That's completely optional, but I'd think it'd be a good idea for people to be aware of how they're affecting, in this case, the health of the Hawken community... It's not like everyone should be so self-centered and entitled that it would be considered a bad thing to be capable of even a little empathy.  Heck, there's that popularity contest thread going on in this forum right now, so it's not like how people affect Hawken and its community is some taboo subject.

[TheButtSatisfier]

All positive traits, yes.  However they effect a minority of the population.   Casual players won't be interested in any of these things...

 

Look, as much as I enjoy typing assumptions to each other, without evidence we're just BS'ing. You don't know the reach or the magnitude of community-supported endeavors, I don't know how much smurfing affects player retention or emigration, you don't know the percentage of casual players that are interested in anything community-produced, nothing. We have hard facts on nothing. We can infer based on loose analogies and personal experience all day, but all we're doing is a terrible job of getting to the truth.

 

I'm not trying to get meta here, but what I just typed is why Amid asked you to provide evidence for your claims. I have personally heard your argument regarding the evils of smurfing and assumptions about the magnitude of that evil a number of times on these forums, and so has Amid, and so have a number of other people. The only thing we'd like one of those people to do is provide some evidence comprehensive evidence proportionate to the scale of their claim. It's not a bait, and it's not trolling. Some people, myself included, are only interested in being convinced by someone else's statement or argument if there's evidence to support it. Otherwise, we believe that the only clear reason why someone would post an argument without evidence is because (1) they didn't want to be taken seriously or (2) they wanted to be reminded to include it. I do #1 all the time because being sarcastic is fantastic. See what I did there?

 

I'll wrap that all up by saying that my second paragraph was full of assumptions, and I don't care enough about my opinion to back it up with evidence.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 07 July 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

All positive traits, yes.  However they effect a minority of the population.   Casual players won't be interested in any of these things.  Also, any player that shows up and gets chased away by the negative part of the community, will never have a chance to find out about and take advantage of any of these things.

 

Stormwalker, dude.  A while back I posted some statistical data about Hawken and the persons on the forums.  Data courtesy of JeffMagnum and Ashfire908.

 

If you post on the forum at all, ever, you are better by MMR than 97% of the players in the game, ever.  By definition, then, if you learn of a community event from the forums, you're elite, if you use a percentile-cutoff to define elite.

 

Most days, I am not salty, and I offer helpful advice to new players (when I detect they're new).  I'll even warn joiners of new players in the server.

 

Most days I get salt in return (hackusations, whining about being too good, 'zzz' comments, the like). 

 

When someone genuinely seems interested, I send them to these forums, and the guides and links here, and tell them about the community that exists for  players LIKE THEM, if they go and learn.

 

Crock and the TDM guys, Merl when he organized things, Amid, others bent over backwards to get new players both education and to play others at their level.

 

They did not meet with derision (other than ones who then brought it upon themselves by their conduct in the forums).

 

And, most true asshats were run out of the game.  I can name a few who the community drummed out (and no, I don't mean Armored Klown)

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 07 July 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[harmless_kittens]

But I hope you guys are not doubting the personal experiences of players like myself.  I have tracked my matches before, one at a time, and documented them.  That IS evidence, albeit from just one player.  I can keep doing this if you'd like, but I'm not sure it would make a difference to anyone.  But if we're now at the point where we don't trust anything that players say without some type of screen print or video (both of which I have no idea how to do), then we really have a problem.  When I'm talking about 40-5 matches where one player has 20 kills and over 600 points, to everyone else's 150 or less, and an MMR range up to 1650, I'm not lying.  It does really happen.  So I hope the only thing we're really arguing about is what type of impact that has on other players, NOT whether or not it even happens. 

Edited by harmless_kittens, 07 July 2016 - 05:19 PM.

[harmless_kittens]

Stormwalker, dude.  A while back I posted some statistical data about Hawken and the persons on the forums.  Data courtesy of JeffMagnum and Ashfire908.

 

If you post on the forum at all, ever, you are better by MMR than 97% of the players in the game, ever.  By definition, then, if you learn of a community event from the forums, you're elite, if you use a percentile-cutoff to define elite.

 

 

Then you are saying that 97% of the player base of this game are not on the forums AND have a lower MMR than the few players on the forums (except me probably)?  Sorry, but where are these people in the game?  Because I'd dearly like to play with them.  My personal gaming experience of late says otherwise.

[DallasCreeper]

Then you are saying that 97% of the player base of this game are not on the forums AND have a lower MMR than the few players on the forums (except me probably)?  Sorry, but where are these people in the game?  Because I'd dearly like to play with them.  My personal gaming experience of late says otherwise.

The current playerbase is far smaller than the number of people who have ever played Hawken.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 When I'm talking about 40-5 matches where one player has 20 kills and over 600 points, to everyone else's 150 or less, and an MMR range up to 1650, I'm not lying. 

 

You're not hallucinating and no one is denying your experience.  I am corroborating it with another player's experience, from the other side.

[TheButtSatisfier]

Stormwalker, dude.  A while back I posted some statistical data about Hawken and the persons on the forums.  Data courtesy of JeffMagnum and Ashfire908.

 

If you post on the forum at all, ever, you are better by MMR than 97% of the players in the game, ever.  By definition, then, if you learn of a community event from the forums, you're elite, if you use a percentile-cutoff...

 

Yes, but Stormwalker's argument is that the elites and any of the benefits they bring to the community lack the penetration to bring those benefits to the casuals.

 

Penetration.

 

But I hope you are not doubting the personal experiences of players like myself.  I have tracked my matches before, one at a time, and documented them.  That IS evidence, albeit from just one player.

 

It is really awesome that you track that information, and you are right - it certainly is evidence.

 

Is that evidence enough to substantiate the claims in this thread? As you pointed out, your evidence is sourced just from you. So, by the (ideal) standards of most scientific disciplines, no, that's not enough evidence. It's still a start! But to show evidence for any claim, we'd need a representative sample of other players to use the same replicable measurement techniques you used for a period of time. That would be a first step. Then it gets into other cool techniques that people more educated than I am use to clean up the data and produce a result that can be peer reviewed and tested against over and over.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 07 July 2016 - 05:28 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Yes, but Stormwalker's argument is that the elites and any of the benefits they bring to the community lack the penetration to bring those benefits to the casuals.

 

Penetration.

 

 

Yes... I was trying to convince him to tell filthy casuals they could become washed elites by visiting a how-to thread on the forums.

 

You know, to assist in penetration.

[Amidatelion]

Yes... I was trying to convince him to tell filthy casuals they could become washed elites by visiting a how-to thread on the forums.

You know, to assist in penetration.

But that would require doing something or asking for help.

[Stormwalker42]

Look, as much as I enjoy typing assumptions to each other, without evidence we're just BS'ing. You don't know the reach or the magnitude of community-supported endeavors, I don't know how much smurfing affects player retention or emigration, you don't know the percentage of casual players that are interested in anything community-produced, nothing. We have hard facts on nothing. We can infer based on loose analogies and personal experience all day, but all we're doing is a terrible job of getting to the truth.

 

I'm not trying to get meta here, but what I just typed is why Amid asked you to provide evidence for your claims. I have personally heard your argument regarding the evils of smurfing and assumptions about the magnitude of that evil a number of times on these forums, and so has Amid, and so have a number of other people. The only thing we'd like one of those people to do is provide some evidence comprehensive evidence proportionate to the scale of their claim. It's not a bait, and it's not trolling. Some people, myself included, are only interested in being convinced by someone else's statement or argument if there's evidence to support it. Otherwise, we believe that the only clear reason why someone would post an argument without evidence is because (1) they didn't want to be taken seriously or (2) they wanted to be reminded to include it. I do #1 all the time because being sarcastic is fantastic. See what I did there?

 

I'll wrap that all up by saying that my second paragraph was full of assumptions, and I don't care enough about my opinion to back it up with evidence.

 

Over and over, I have seen these threads.  You have seen these threads.  Amid has seen these threads.   There is not a single vet who can say without lying that they have not seen these threads and complaints from numerous sources over the years.   Every single time I came back and went over this AGAIN, it was in response to yet another person bringing up the same thing.   This is evidence.   It is trolling if you automatically bring up an argument that states without a link to the post from the past that I am lying.  You are calling me a liar.   I am not going to stoop to spouting false claims about this.  There is no point.

 

The only reason it is an argument is there is a percentage of the community that wants to believe that treating people like garbage and chasing them away is not wrong.   You will never win that argument.   It is a negative thing to the person and to the game in general.

I don't need to drag up links to threads that go back years (if those threads even still are there) when you or any other person who reads these forums has seen them time and time again.  How many threads do you need?  How many requests to give casual players a chance and leave them alone, do you really need?   How many responses of "stop whining" and "git gud", etc. do you really need before you admit that it's a real problem?  

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Kittens, while I don't side with blow hards like ami or similar ilk, the reality is that you quit a TON of matches you que into. That in itself is ruining your mmr. I said this to you before. This game can be tough. It requires you to think about what you are doing wrong if you want to get better. I think your "true mmr" is higher than your actual but again quiting isn't helping you there. There is a smurf problem no doubt. It's annoying as really almost all of them are using it as an excuse to pub stomp rather than the bs excuse of "I can't get a game brah", they just don't have the testicular fortitude to admit it. But, a problem that you can personally address today is your bailing on matches. No joke, a lot of people refer to you as quitens now because of it. You have a choice here to help your situation if you want to. I know I always welcome you and your son to matches, and that little booger is pretty damn good, so it isn't like you aren't getting into friendly servers.

[Stormwalker42]

Yes... I was trying to convince him to tell filthy casuals they could become washed elites by visiting a how-to thread on the forums.

 

You know, to assist in penetration.

 

Who says they WANT to?  There are many casual players out there who have absolutely no interest in ever becoming elite.   They have money, they will happily pay cash to avoid grinds, etc., to play at their own mediocre levels.   They have absolutely no interest in becoming like you, playing like you, or playing against you.   They just want to be left alone playing against people their own level and having fun.   I get it, there are people who don't get this attitude, but it's out there and there are again, a lot more of them, then there are of you.  The prevalent attitude is actually chasing this cash cow away and it makes no sense to me. 

[Silverfire]

can I just interject in the middle of all of this and say that I identify with all of you, Ishmael, Butt, Amid, Storm, even you kittens, on a personal level because I can see where every single one of you are coming from and I understand kind of and I just want to hug every single one of you in this thread (even you Amid) and say "it's gonna be ok"

 

Edited by Silverfire, 07 July 2016 - 06:42 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

  They just want to be left alone playing against people their own level and having fun. 

 

Dunno if you know my history, but I'm a former motorcycle roadracer. Racers race.  If you ain't racing, you ain't a racer.  But if you go to trackdays, everyone's trying to win the trackday.

 

Point is: there is competition everywhere.  Evolution/Natural Selection bred it into us.  You are the flower of 10,000 generations of natural selection.  It's actually UNNATURAL to not want to compete.  Nature rewards us by letting us enjoy when we win a competition.

 

Play at your own level is more enjoyable when you win more than you lose, because you are in a competitive situation (the game).  It is natural to get better, because we are learning animals.

 

The way to learn is to play, and play better players. You can short circuit that and get much more enjoyment at your level by reading guides and asking advice.  That translates into more fights won, and if you play the match out and finish better than half the server, your MMR will go up, and you will play better players. This is natural.

 

I think what you're really complaining about is that smurfs force the learning curve.   I was against sandbox servers in the past, as I think it will lead to tears after a player leaves the sandbox and encounters 'Hawken uncut'. 

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Apropos of nothing whatsoever, tonight's baguettes came out awesome and I'm in a great mood. Have a hug (and a baguette, still warm), Silver.

 

(Luna, please.  Tiggs sort of unconverted my name back)

[Amidatelion]

I love you too, skrublet.

[harmless_kittens]

Kittens, while I don't side with blow hards like ami or similar ilk, the reality is that you quit a TON of matches you que into. That in itself is ruining your mmr. I said this to you before. This game can be tough. It requires you to think about what you are doing wrong if you want to get better. I think your "true mmr" is higher than your actual but again quiting isn't helping you there. There is a smurf problem no doubt. It's annoying as really almost all of them are using it as an excuse to pub stomp rather than the bs excuse of "I can't get a game brah", they just don't have the testicular fortitude to admit it. But, a problem that you can personally address today is your bailing on matches. No joke, a lot of people refer to you as quitens now because of it. You have a choice here to help your situation if you want to. I know I always welcome you and your son to matches, and that little booger is pretty damn good, so it isn't like you aren't getting into friendly servers.

OK, I thought there were no "call outs" allowed in these forums, so I have held back on you're repeated references to me quitting matches (which I do).  So what else is allowed now?  Can I start calling out all the smurfs, by name now?  What about others of you here who have bailed out in matches BEFORE I do?  What about the cheaters?  I may be "harmless", but I'm not stupid.  I can start tracking a LOT of things and calling you all out on it, if you'd like, but I thought that was against forum rules and general etiquette.  Is this not against the rules anymore?

[Nept]

OK, I thought there were no "call outs" allowed in these forums, so I have held back on you're repeated references to me quitting matches (which I do).  So what else is allowed now?  Can I start calling out all the smurfs, by name now?  What about others of you here who have bailed out in matches BEFORE I do?  What about the cheaters?  I may be "harmless", but I'm not stupid.  I can start tracking a LOT of things and calling you all out on it, if you'd like, but I thought that was against forum rules and general etiquette.  Is this not against the rules anymore?

 

Dude, I kinda like you - for whatever that's worth - but I think you're being waaaaay over sensitive here.  That being said, if you want to keep a running list of smurf aliases, bails, and cheaters, be our guest.  Honestly, the only person who'd grump over it is Tiggs.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Kittens, feel free to track smurfs or quiters. Doesn't bother me either way as I'm not in either category. My point in my post though is that you might be the cause of your own problem in regards to mm. Take that for what you will, I've always been cordial to you have I not?

[harmless_kittens]

Sorry, but so many of these real life analogies, like "track racers", just come across to me as disingenuous.  How many of you want to play a pickup match with the Cleveland Cavaliers?  YES!  Everyone raises their hands.  That would be so awesome to be in the presence of such greatness!  For how long?  You drive to the basket, they steal the ball from you and dunk.  You make a jump shot, they tower over you and swat it away.  First game final score is 150-3 (you got a lucky shot in).  Then they say "Cool!  Let's go again!"  O...K....  Next match you actually score 4 points.   This is fun.....NOT.  It's why we don't have 6 year olds playing pros.  This is what new players are experiencing right now when smurfs come to town (and admittedly high MMR players too, but I can see now that this is not always intentional - smurfing IS).  You guys act like it would be so fun to get absolutely creamed by Nascar's best, or the best professional sports team, or run the 100 meters versus Bolt and all the other world record holders - not once, but again and again and again.  I'm sorry, but if you're saying this it's hard for me to believe you.  I'd like to know about where you act like this in real life, because you are doing the exact OPPOSITE in Hawken.  You are not the one getting crushed - you're the one doing the crushing, so how can you tell us you like getting stomped on by better players (because it makes you better)?  Why aren't you playing competitive chess or needleworking instead then - something you're really bad at?  People inherently choose the path of least resistance, and always will, and I suspect that most of you are no different.

 

Edit:  Actually my Cavaliers analogy if off from "smurfing".  In what I said above, you KNOW you're playing the greatest team.  But smurfing is like an NBA team playing at your local court, out of uniform, and you have no idea who they are or how good they are - until they stomp you.  And even then they say things like "No, I just picked up a basketball for the first time yesterday!"  I can tolerate the best HONEST players, but it's difficult not to hate a liar and a con-man.

Edited by harmless_kittens, 08 July 2016 - 12:25 AM.

[Nept]

I'm sorry, but if you're saying this it's hard for me to believe you.  I'd like to know about where you act like this in real life, because you are doing the exact OPPOSITE in Hawken.  You are not the one getting crushed - you're the one doing the crushing, so how can you tell us you like getting stomped on by better players (because it makes you better)?  Why aren't you playing competitive chess or needleworking instead then - something you're really bad at?  People inherently choose the path of least resistance, and always will, and I suspect that most of you are no different.

 

The people you've been debating - all of them - have been crushed and stomped throughout their Hawken careers.  Did you watch Amid's videos?  Because you should: they're a lesson in perseverance and attitude.  Even after they'd improved considerably, the players here were beaten soundly in competitive play.  But they also earned their victories.  They did not choose the path of least resistance.

 

It's comforting to pretend that people always pick the easy path, to minimize their struggles and frustrations for ego's sake.  But it's also disingenuous and self-serving.  Ultimately, your options are delineated by your metaphor: walk the difficult path of self-improvement and agency, or the easy path of victimhood.

Edited by Nept, 07 July 2016 - 08:05 PM.

[Silverfire]

  Why aren't you playing competitive chess or needleworking instead then - something you're really bad at?  

 

To be fair, when I was younger, I went to a week-long summer camp many years and one of the activities was needlework and suffice to say, it was kind of fun, and can do a very small bit of needlework to this day.  And I was in my township's amateur chess league for several years.

 

Not to say been there done that but...

 

Been there, done that.

Edited by Silverfire, 07 July 2016 - 08:08 PM.

[tropt]

... walk the difficult path of self-improvement and agency, or the easy path of victimhood.

 

I don't think it's that simple. This is a problem of a small player base. Skilled peeps meeting low skilled. Both wanting to play and the high skilled not adjusting their play style to accomodate new, less experienced players.

 

Sorry, but so many of these real life analogies, like "track racers", just come across to me as disingenuous.  How many of you want to play a pickup match with the Cleveland Cavaliers?  YES!  Everyone raises their hands.  That would be so awesome to be in the presence of such greatness!  For how long?  You drive to the basket, they steal the ball from you and dunk.  You make a jump shot, they tower over you and swat it away.  First game final score is 150-3 (you got a lucky shot in).  Then they say "Cool!  Let's go again!"  O...K....  Next match you actually score 4 points.   This is fun.....NOT.  It's why we don't have 6 year olds playing pros.  This is what new players are experiencing right now when smurfs come to town (and admittedly high MMR players too, but I can see now that this is not always intentional - smurfing IS).  You guys act like it would be so fun to get absolutely creamed by Nascar's best, or the best professional sports team, or run the 100 meters versus Bolt and all the other world record holders - not once, but again and again and again.  I'm sorry, but if you're saying this it's hard for me to believe you.  I'd like to know about where you act like this in real life, because you are doing the exact OPPOSITE in Hawken.  You are not the one getting crushed - you're the one doing the crushing, so how can you tell us you like getting stomped on by better players (because it makes you better)?  Why aren't you playing competitive chess or needleworking instead then - something you're really bad at?  People inherently choose the path of least resistance, and always will, and I suspect that most of you are no different.

 

Your POV might not be popular, but I hear you.   I've pub stomped a few matches and it definately isn't fun. Not for me or the other pilots.

If you've stuck with the game for this long, you enjoy the good fight, the long fight, the nail biting dance to the last points of health that leave both opponents spent.

 

The problem for me, and I'm sure others, is that you either play with less experienced pilots or you dont play, at all. If playing means Im in a match with less experienced players, so be it. I need to play. I love this game, as do others. There's just not enough of us anymore, to provide the environment you seek. You're 3 years too late.

 

Here is how I alter my play style, If I know im playing in a game with less experienced pilots:

1) I will impose limitations on my behaviour. No secondary, no healing, sometimes no items (i have a few variations of each mech)

2) I will sometimes sit part of the match out, if its obvious that my being there is BADLY influencing the game. I even mention this in the chat. (SITTING THIS ONE OUT. UNBALANCED). I dont know about the US, but in Asia / Oceanic region, there's a few of us that regularly do this. 

3) I swap sides AS SOON AS the prompt shows up on the screen that teams are unbalanced. Always have, always will.

4) I try and offer advice to pilots i see struggling.

 

Believe it or not, I've shot at players that I can see are vastly beneath my skills and actually gifted them health orbs before running off. I've shot at players until I've realised they're not good enough to hit back and left them alone. 

Why? Because it isnt fun, I care about the longevity of the game, I'm not an 455Hole and I've never really cared about my MMR.

 

Getting abit long winded, but I guess I wanted to say, "I hear you" and that this isn't just as simple as saying "dont pub stomp". The community is too small to prevent it and It's a problem better hidden with a larger playerbase. Don't stress about it, but hang in there.

 

Hopefully it gets better the more players that join (which will dillute the problem, like it used to).

Edited by tropt, 07 July 2016 - 10:45 PM.

[harmless_kittens]

Survey response bias.

 

Can you explain this?  Even where I work does this when an employee goes elsewhere.  Why doesn't it work in this environment?

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Sorry, but so many of these real life analogies, like "track racers", just come across to me as disingenuous.  How many of you want to play a pickup match with the Cleveland Cavaliers? 

 

 

Kittens, dude...

 

I'd give my left one to get on a track with Val Rossi.  I *have* actually raced with Doug Chandler.  MANY of today's top MotoAmerica racers are kids I blocked in corners a few years ago.

 

Nept is ABSOLUTELY on the money.  When I started Hawken, I sucked.  Bad.  For a long time.  But I rose to the challenge.  I didn't start out fast as a racer.  But I stuck with it (this was expensive...).

 

Keep a list of Smurfs.  Post it to Reddit if Tiggs won't agree to post it here.  I'd LOVE to see who you run into.  However, I think most names will be 'throwaway'.