15 replies to this topic

[6ixxer]

Some thoughts i decided to drag over from the dev update thread.

 

Ready assets:

I'd like to see dual PN-223 be viable. Frontloaded enough not to be useless for corner poking and midrange engagements around cover.

I'd also like to see dual Heat on a C-class with shields and failsafe as starter items.

I'd like to see the proximity Tow find its way onto reworked Fred, as we have too many sustain + Tow. IMO Fred needs some love and to resurrect as another noob friendly mech to stand against the twin seekers (too many don't use airburst on standard Tow).

I'd like to see stepping on turrets cause some damage. Preds and milge players need to consciously choose to take the hit, otherwise move away.

 

Assets to develop:

I'd like to see a Heat Cannon variant that charges to fire a triple volley rather than larger (like it's the lovechild of Heat and EOC).

I'd like to see a GL variant that rapidfires small high-velocity 'nades or charges to fire a mirv cluster (faster charging but lower damage than Corsair-KLA)

I'd like to see a twin-slug-cannon that increases RoF by alternating barrels or can fire both at once by charging (lovechild of Hawkins and T32) 

(chargeable or frontloaded weapons IMO are a fun compromise of sustain v burst, and can be noob friendly and hopefully viable in high tier)

 

I'd like to see internals to hide you from scanners when you are just walking, and an internal to reduce duration of ISM/EMP. 

I'd like to see a weapon that debuffs speed from targets (and trolls veteran milge) + I'd like to see internals that reduce effect of debuff weapons.

I'd like some more variety of deployable AoE charges, Anti-repair, redox/vulnerability, magnetic/slowness (anti-debuff internal also mitigates).

IMO, if we end up getting CTF mode, we need a way to slow the flag runner, and ways to disrupt the meta in general.

 

Any worthwhile arguments for/against??

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[nepacaka]

dual Heat on a C-class with shields and failsafe as starter items.

 

it will be a dead mech (no speed + no dps = trash, free damage points for enemies, and can't defence himself, you just die faster than u kill, say, raider or smc-assult who jump on you. and you can cover yourself, because speed), which no one play due abused bu tonnes of dps mech. i feel the heat cannon need a rework. because it is extremly hard weapon in air-combat gameplay. 

uncharged bullet should fly faster (projectile speed), with the same speed as a charged bullet, but don't have a splash damage.
i.e.
1) uncharged mode - shooting as a railgun, with +/- good dps, good firerate, and cause problems with overheat due the high rate of fire.
2) charged mode - waste your dps, low fire rate due by charge, but you got splash damage instead.

Edited by nepacaka, 05 October 2016 - 01:59 AM.

[claisolais]

“I'd like to see a weapon that debuffs speed from targets (and trolls veteran milge) + I'd like to see internals that reduce effect of debuff weapons.”

Death ball will becoming more deadly than ever.

The skill gap between vet and noob is a problems, not just that, we have team work problems in general. It's good to see something that promote teamwork, but they might not doing any good.

[Meraple]

I'd like to see dual PN-223 be viable. Frontloaded enough not to be useless for corner poking and midrange engagements around cover.

Dual-wield weapons make mechs a lot less interesting to me due to a less varied playstyle.

Not many fps games allow you to wield 2 different weapons at the same time - I think it makes herken stand out more.

 

 

I'd also like to see dual Heat on a C-class with shields and failsafe as starter items.

Sounds like a more boring, less versatile Heat Gren to me.

I primarily find Heat Gren interesting due to the differences between Heat and GL.

I'd much rather have a Heat+GL B-class.

 

 

I'd like to see a GL variant that rapidfires small high-velocity 'nades or charges to fire a mirv cluster (faster charging but lower damage than Corsair-KLA)

The Corsair doesn't charge up though..

 

 

I'd like to see a twin-slug-cannon that increases RoF by alternating barrels or can fire both at once by charging (lovechild of Hawkins and T32) 

Sounds pretty cool.

 

 

I'd like to see internals to hide you from scanners when you are just walking, and an internal to reduce duration of ISM/EMP. 

I'd like to see a weapon that debuffs speed from targets (and trolls veteran milge) + I'd like to see internals that reduce effect of debuff weapons.

I don't like any of these for reasons stated many times before.

 

 

the heat cannon ... is extremly hard weapon in air-combat gameplay.

Why is that a problem?

Edited by Meraple, 05 October 2016 - 05:46 AM.

[EM1O]

good ideas!

after the horror story bugs and glitches that have languished for the entire time rld has been here, aren't getting fixed because they don't listen to us.

except when Someone comes up with dual primaries mech concepts...  

[DeeRax]

Enough with the speed debuff thing, it's a poor idea for a game like HOWKEN, and smacks of "I can't hit a-classes (Or anybody)."

Spoiler

Well... Anyway, the twin-slug cannon thing sounds pretty awesome tho.

Edited by DeeRax, 05 October 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

I'd like to see an end to this Dual-Wielding business.  It's gimmicky and unoriginal.  It also lowers the level of skill needed to correctly manage a mech.

[6ixxer]

so you dont have an assault G2 then? cos they are too pedestrian for your FPS hipster image?

Meh, dual wield can being fast options to the game. if they allow broader weapon combos then you know the milge will rock dual breachers.

I think dual HC could be fun and if the C had an ability that synergised with dual canons, like increase splash damage and radius by X% and reduce self damage Y% for 10sec then suddenly its not so defenseless.

Speed debuffing weapons dont affect players that avoid getting hit by them. its a support thing and would be good in CTF. Internals to reduce ALL debuffs, may become common. I'm happy to force milge to lay down their speed, AC and air-180 internals because they hate being debuffed. Everyone hates Orbsucking internals and forget that you can make your mech faster with internals.

Confirmed: RLD must make a twin-slug-cannon

Edited by 6ixxer, 07 October 2016 - 12:50 AM.

[Meraple]

so you dont have an assault G2 then? cos they are too pedestrian for your FPS hipster image?

Not sure who you're addressing here.

 

 

Meh, dual wield can being fast options to the game.

Nobody mentioned dual-wielding being slow.

The problem is that it lowers the skill requirement and skill ceiling, ontop of having a less varied playstyle.

 

 

if they allow broader weapon combos then you know the milge will rock dual breachers.

That wouldn't be fun at all.

I don't feel like explaining this particular point.

 

 

Speed debuffing weapons dont affect players that avoid getting hit by them.

That's like saying weapons don't deal damage to players that avoid getting hit by them.

It's not a valid argument since good players will hit you consistently if you're in effective range, regardless of how fancy you dance.

 

 

I'm happy to force milge to lay down their speed, AC and air-180 internals because they hate being debuffed. Everyone hates Orbsucking internals and forget that you can make your mech faster with internals.

I'd rather not be forced to use an internal because that's boring as hell.

A new weapon is not a good excuse to reduce viable internal variety to such an extreme low. (not counting orblord as viable cus tpg)

 

 

Probably my last post in this thread because I feel like our views are so different neither side is going to get any better from this.

Atleast, I won't.

Edited by Meraple, 07 October 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[6ixxer]

You're probably right, I play casual and I like variety. Also don't care whether things are best for top 5% and comp.

...but games won't succeed with only those players. They need some mass appeal.

 

I don't think i'll ever reach a point of play skill that is acceptable to top tier, and I don't care honestly.

Comp players follow the meta, and could easily ban dual wielders, the same as they ban orblord build and scanners.

New mechs, new cosmetics and 'fun' weapon combos will bring the monetization that RLD needs.

 

If they need to get monetization from comp players, they need to rent servers with comp-presets for what is not allowed to be equipped.

eg: TPG-server(HoldTheCheese)

 

During beta is when the game can throw out wild stuff and see what works. As soon as the beta tag comes off then people will complain about changes that aren't perfect first time as they expect everything polished.

I think there should be test servers where you go in and you can test drive everything for no cost, including new test mechs with weird loadouts/items/internals.

Test mechs that you cannot buy, so when they get pulled out, people don't complain that they lost something.

Scanners are here, tech is here. People need to stop calling for them to leave the game. I'd accept a nerf to their OP-ness and have suggested many possible changes, and there are people that wouldn't even consider trying changes. Just insist on delete. Community like that is what would make me leave. not a beta game trying something and it causes an error or imbalance.

[StubbornPuppet]

^I'm not anywhere near the top-tier player's skill level either 6ixxer.  But, I want to play games with people of my own skill level who are challenged to play as skillfully as possible.  I think the dual-wielding (as it has been over-implemented recently by ReLoaded) is cheesy and reduces the skill required to play.

 

So, just like you, I don't care much about what the highest tier players are doing, but I sure don't want my tier's lobbies to become a dork-fest with everyone sporting dualies where they just hold down the two fire buttons and spray the area.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 10 October 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[6ixxer]

I understand the sentiment a bit, but we already have Assault G2 long before Charge and Nief.
We have the charge, so not sure dual PN-223 would play much differently, but being frontloaded it would have the advantage in corner poking against a charge, especially at mid range where miniflak is less effective. I'd expect the charge to eat dual PN-223 mechs in short range without cover.
I'd certainly accept a combo of PN-223 and a chargeable mini-grenade secondary.

I like the idea of dual Heat as it could be good for suppression/area denial similar to Incinerator with some differences.
It cannot fire forever without overheating. It doesnt have main weapon spinup time. No hitscan primary.
Dual HC won't hit flying mechs as easily. Has the possibility that a troll scout could get up close and make it self-damage itself to death.
I think ability that increases damage by a small amount but increases splash by a large amount, while simultaneously lowering self-damage could give it some utility, however may encourage YOLO into deathballs (could work, but more likely darwinism).
Perhaps it will be weak in most situations and only good at supporting assault on AA in siege. I still wanna try it regardless.

[Silverfire]

outside of niche builds, I think dual weapon designs are an indication of lazy, unoriginal design.  A few dual mechs are okay.  Dual vulcan seems like an appropriate thing given the whole mech thing Hawken has going.  But Dual EOC, dual RevGL, dual miniflak, dual hawkins-rpr (soon-to-be) dual seekers, I mean c'mon. That's just flat out...dumb.  And to suggest dual PN 223, literally the worst weapon in the game, makes me question your game sense.  Dual Heat Cannon, dual Slug. Lazy design.

 

something original would be like, i don't know, a mech with completely new and unique weapons.  Breacher was unique.  Corsair KLA was original.  We need more stuff like that, not dual PN 223.

[6ixxer]

makes me question your game sense.

I don't mind questions. I have my reasons. They are my reasons and I don't expect everyone to share them.
 
While PN-223 isn't great right now, it is a frontloaded burst-sustain weapon which has a unique mechanic.
It may have been in the works already, but it came after I posted suggestions to bring a burst rifle into the game.
Its a weapon I wanted. I like the mechanic, not overjoyed about the implementation (needs a few extra DPS and way less bloom, I'd also prefer more frontloading).

If it were balanced better it would certainly have a good playstyle. I would not want dual PN in current state.
I would also like the PN teamed with a chargeable mini-grenade launcher which would make me forget dual PN in a heartbeat, but this secondary doesn't exist yet.

I think dual heat would have some interest, despite opinions of lazy design, as it is a projectile weapon that is unique and has tradeoffs of explosive self-damage when used in CQC and difficulty learning to land shots on flying targets. Even if its not great, I still want to see how it plays.

I've suggested a unique secondary before, but it included a mechanic that while it exists in other games, people here criticised it (and IMO) for purely subjective reasons. I requested/welcomed constructive feedback and it was mostly just "Noooooo! Don't want"

Edited by 6ixxer, 11 October 2016 - 10:39 PM.

[nepacaka]

Why is that a problem?

Because people can't adequately use it. I feel that unchanged speed should be equal charged shot speed.
This weapon mostly usable like - you charge heat, go out of corner, shoot charged shot+secondary, than repeat. 95% of time you not use uncharged shots at all, just because it is almost unreal hit something except C-classes.
(or some nubs which only walking and don't use doge/boost)

I feel that weapon not use full potencial, just because only one of it's really usable and have profit.

Just for example, if you totally deleted uncharged shot, and let only charged mode, the gameplay with this weapon almost not changed.

Edited by nepacaka, 13 October 2016 - 12:34 AM.

[nepacaka]

If compare heat-gren, and heat-scout, I feel heat grenadier more interest for using heat, just becase he have lack of speed. Scout can just use only charged shots and keep distance, and trolling opponent. Grenadier not. He should use both mode, because sometimes he can't "runaway" and keep distance, for example if berserker, or raider just press F, have "bloody eyes", and want to kill you ignore everything else, the only one adequate counter thing which you can do, it is kill it with uncharged shots before enemy kill you. And it is almost impossible, cuz you bullet so slow, and it is very easy to miss against air-dodgers, or speedy mech. At the same time, assault, or raider just hold LMB till you die.
I feel it is unfair. Weapon should be probably hard for use in terms of tactics, but it should be easy to use in terms of controlling, comfortable. Charged shots is very easy to use, it have so large spash, that you not miss even if you want, but uncharged shorts required super skill. It is not how it should be.
Probably, this one of the reason why only small amount of people can use gren, and it is sad, because it is interesting mech. I feel it is mistake from gameplay design point of view. This mech, and this weapon came from past, when heat will be usable, and mechs don't fly. But now this weapon need a "fix"

I also feel (and many times tell this), the some sort of things - it is all about hawken. This one of the element why this game is hard for people. Impossible making popular game which contain some gameplay decision like this. Easy-to-use hard-to-mastery is not related with this and it is problem, because we have some elements like hard-to-use. Nothing strange that people choose mech like g2-assault, bers or raider instead, cuz pew-pew ez. The same why I use brawler, because it is easy, to control. It have shotgun based gameplay, it is cool, have problems with speed, overheat, and many other things, but... It is easy to control, and very comfortable, this is why it is cool mech. And this is why people mostly love use flak, slug, smc and other. I think all weapons should be easy (if we talk about making more open to player, more popular, and have all mech in game usable and playable)

Edited by nepacaka, 13 October 2016 - 01:20 AM.