123 replies to this topic

[AsianJoyKiller]

First off, this isn't a "things need to change" or "it used to be better this way" post. Rather, it's just something that crossed my mind and I decided to bring it up as food for thought.

I was playing a match the other day. It was a particularly one sided ordeal on Last Eco. I was on the AA, taking a pounding from various enemy mechs playing peek-a-boo on the nearby ledges. And as I watched people hop up and down behind the ledges to fire off their secondaries, I was struck by how fast (in a very specific manner) current-Hawken could feel at times, compared to Alpha or Closed Beta Hawken.

You see, for those of you who didn't play back then, secondary weapons used to fire much, much slower. Like, the Raider's secondary cooldown time was closer to what we would have considedered standard.

It got me wondering. With so many complaints about the "speed" of Hawken, I wonder how secondary rate of fire plays into it. Because rate of fire, especially the RoF of high damage secondaries, affects how fast combat feels. It is just as important to pacing as movement speed.

I think we've done ourselves a diservice on the forums. We're always talking and arguing about literal speed. How fast we move, dodge, and fly. But when talking about whether or not Hawken is "too fast" or "too slow", most of us don't discuss other issues of "speed", or to make the important distinction, "pacing".

So when we talk about the speed of Hawken, I'd like to see us (myself included) consider more than just the literal movement, but other issues that affect the pace of combat, like resource consumption rates, rates of fire, etc.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Do you believe we should go back to the ye olde days when the secondary weapons have a slower rate of fire?  I've actually never thought of this, it definitely is important.

[LoC_TR]

Quality Post!

 

Yes your most common secondary is the TOW which has a 2.25sec CD! Now if you look at dodge CD's (correct me if I'm wrong) are 1.0secs, 1.2secs, and 1.5secs which means its statistically improbable that you'll be able dodge multiple TOWS! This obviously has an effect on decision making in-game as to how and where you move, and imo giving the user less options tactically. Definitely less adrenaline pumping than the 5-second-cool down on TOW.

 

EDIT Wow i really skewed these numbers. Fixed. 

Edited by LoC_TR, 05 April 2015 - 01:04 AM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

I'd personally like to go for slower rate of fire for weapons.  However, that would be very punishing to a lot of newer players.  I'm not sure how good or bad that would be.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 03 April 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Do you believe we should go back to the ye olde days when the secondary weapons have a slower rate of fire?  I've actually never thought of this, it definitely is important.

Okay. Here's the thing. The older, slower firing secondaries also did a ton more damage, and we had higher armor values. It's part of the reason that they fired so slowly.
 

Personally, I wouldn't mind the RoF being slowed down... if they increased mobility. Downside of that is, it's even more unfriendly to newer or less skilled players, because it puts a strong emphasis on positioning and picking your moment to fire.

In fact, the reason ADH shortened the RoF on secondaries was to be more friendly to newer players, as the spammyness decreases the feeling of "I can't do anything right now".

EDIT:
Umbre made me consider, it also is pretty new player unfriendly to be constantly bombarded with explosives. So the current RoF has it's own new-player unfriendly side.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 03 April 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[LoC_TR]

Do you believe we should go back to the ye olde days when the secondary weapons have a slower rate of fire?  I've actually never thought of this, it definitely is important.

Yes I do! In fact when they sped up the movement speed back in spring 2014 they should have slowed the RoF and raised the damage. Making each individual shot and each individual dodge that more important. Also you have to remember back then the dodges were based on fuel, whereas now the are set to a cool down. The way users play has completely changed as well; tactics based around the cooldowns which is "Boost dodging" instead of a strategy that was not limited by cooldown but by fuel "dodge-dodge-dodge." Too many variables changing over time and made it difficult to see simple issues such as this. They could also consider lowering the CD on dodge, there is a sweet spot in the middle of movement speed, dodging, RoF, heat, and fuel. It's just not that easy to find it seems.

Edited by LoC_TR, 03 April 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[Loglino]

I think they should be a little slower, including having a slight damage increase. I would like to see less of a spam-strategy in all of my games when it comes to TOW rockets, even if it takes away a little bit of intensity.

[LoC_TR]

Okay. Here's the thing. The older, slower firing secondaries also did a ton more damage, and we had higher armor values. It's part of the reason that they fired so slowly.
 

Personally, I wouldn't mind the RoF being slowed down... if they increased mobility. Downside of that is, it's even more unfriendly to newer or less skilled players, because it puts a strong emphasis on positioning and picking your moment to fire.

In fact, the reason ADH shortened the RoF on secondaries was to be more friendly to newer players, as the spammyness decreases the feeling of "I can't do anything right now".

EDIT:
Umbre made me consider, it also is pretty new player unfriendly to be constantly bombarded with explosives. So the current RoF has it's own new-player unfriendly side.

 

 

THIS.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Okay. Here's the thing. The older, slower firing secondaries also did a ton more damage, and we had higher armor values. It's part of the reason that they fired so slowly.
 

Personally, I wouldn't mind the RoF being slowed down... if they increased mobility. Downside of that is, it's even more unfriendly to newer or less skilled players, because it puts a strong emphasis on positioning and picking your moment to fire.

In fact, the reason ADH shortened the RoF on secondaries was to be more friendly to newer players, as the spammyness decreases the feeling of "I can't do anything right now".

I suspected as much about the unfriendly bit for newer players.  However, it will increase the pressure for the player to better aim with secondaries.  Not to mention it'll make newbies realize their mistakes faster by having a change to retaliate.

 

EDIT:  Oh... you've talked about that with Umbre.  Alright, glad you also see that side as well.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, 03 April 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[OdinTheWise]

this is a worthy topic to discuss. besides fire rate and ect., we also should look at healing and time in battle. running off to heal forces you to stop all battle and heal, effectively stalling game play for that player. also mechanics such as the tech and health orbs also have the potential to extend time in battle. conversely tech may also reduce time in battle because you are in the back getting healed and protecting your tech and things of that nature. just food for though, that is all

[LoC_TR]

I suspected as much about the unfriendly bit for newer players.  However, it will increase the pressure for the player to better aim with secondaries.  Not to mention it'll make newbies realize their mistakes faster by having a change to retaliate.

 

EDIT:  Oh... you've talked about that with Umbre.  Alright, glad you also see that side as well.

 

Most players agree this game is really movement focused so by slowing ROF and increasing damage, the game would have an even higher emphasis on movement and positioning. Imo this the hardest thing for new players to learn, even now players still aren't getting movement=life. So more in-depth movement tutorials would definitely be needed.

[MomOw]

Quality Post!

 

Yes your most common secondary is the TOW which has a 1.5sec CD! Now if you look at dodge CD's (correct me if I'm wrong) are 1.0secs, 1.2secs, and 1.4-5?secs which means its statistically improbable that you'll be able dodge multiple TOWS! This obviously has an effect on decision making in-game as to how and where you move, and imo giving the user less options tactically. Definitely less adrenaline pumping than the 5-second-cool down on TOW.

 

I don't get your point, when an ennemy dodge you have to re-aim and you never know where he will dodge (right / left ?)

Good player with A-class with 1s dodge cooldown vs 1.5s TOW cooldown can virtually never get hit. Only C-class cannot dodge efficiently.

 

If you increase TOW cooldown (let say 2s) in exchange for higher Burst damage the pumbstomping will be ridiculous, a good scout player could take-out an entire team of new players.

 

Maybe make a "XT-Tow" for some Mechs which could have an increase cooldown.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Good player with A-class with 1s dodge cooldown vs 1.5s TOW cooldown can virtually never get hit. Only C-class cannot dodge efficiently.

Goodness me! Then how did I ever direct hit them in Alpha and CB, when the dodge cooldown was even shorter, and the secondary reload was even longer?

[CrimsonKaim]

High RoF -> More secondaries spam and shooting to "scan" wheather there is an enemy. Pisses me off but no that much as other things (Flak ..).

[LoC_TR]

I don't get your point, when an ennemy dodge you have to re-aim and you never know where he will dodge (right / left ?)

Good player with A-class with 1s dodge cooldown vs 1.5s TOW cooldown can virtually never get hit. Only C-class cannot dodge efficiently.

 

If you increase TOW cooldown (let say 2s) in exchange for higher Burst damage the pumbstomping will be ridiculous, a good scout player could take-out an entire team of new players.

 

Maybe make a "XT-Tow" for some Mechs which could have an increase cooldown.

 

Well you can definitely know which direction they want to go, all you need is some basic information that can be established early on in the engagement. How much health does he have, how much fuel, has he used his ability, what's his objective, where is his team, where is your team, where does he want to go or need to go? Most players will instinctively act on whims of what is or isn't safe for him/her at the time, so you can eliminate some choices for him/her or even push him/her to make an even worse decision by positioning yourself correctly. Watch any of the best players, its like they know your move before you even attempt it, you can use that to your advantage. 

 

This is also where game mechanics play a role the TOW missile for example can be air-bursted, is pretty fast, and accurate. Placing a TOW in-between an opponents dodge isn't that hard to do, especially when you've eliminated some paths from your opponents options!

 

I DO NOT believe this would make it more difficult on the new people. I feel that if Hawken stressed the importance of movement more there would be less confusion early on. Also I'm not talking a 2 second tow, more like 4-5 second tow. 

Edited by LoC_TR, 04 April 2015 - 12:59 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Well you can definitely know which direction they want to go, all you need is some basic information that can be established early on in the engagement. How much health does he have, how much fuel, has he used his ability, what's his objective, where is his team, wheres yours team, where does he want to go or need to go? Most players will instinctively act on whims of what is or isn't safe for him/her at the time, so you can eliminate some choices for him/her or even push him/her to make an even worse decision by positioning yourself correctly. Watch any of the best players, its like they know your move before you even attempt it, you can use that to your advantage.

If you're savvy enough, you can also study an individual and see if they favor a direction under neutral circumstances.

[LoC_TR]

If you're savvy enough, you can also study an individual and see if they favor a direction under neutral circumstances.

+1 oh yes..

Hestoned and I would have standoffs on orbs where he and I wouldn't move much as we were both waiting for the other to flinch or miss. He would just flak me cause he didn't want to self damage, leading me to MIRV him, and I couldn't miss a MIRV otherwise I was pretty screwed. So we'd just stand there soaking up orbs until all the Milkshake was gone, then it turned into a dance off where he's baiting my MIRV while I try my hardest not to miss. Would often just not turn my mech at all because he had a habit of just walking out in front of my vision again. There were a ton of times where he'd make me look silly though with a 180. Hell I don't even know if he thought about those (what were in my mind) battles of the titans.. haha.

 

Edited by LoC_TR, 04 April 2015 - 01:16 AM.

[LU0P10]

What affects the pace too... the current radar and portable scanner radius being as such... you must walk so much making things really boring and slow or you just give out your position and boost the hell out off your fuel tank and give a fuzzy bunny about a smart game play and don't die to boredom irl.

[crockrocket]

Intersting

[M4st0d0n]

Yes. Cooldowns are important. +1 for realizing that.

[MomOw]

being a 1850MMR player playing often against >2000MMR players I have to say that in those games I already feel that movement is king and pretty tricky.

So everything depends on who is the target of the balance and what will be the experience for new players.

 

-> avoid wallstuck, avoid "brake" (when your mech stop whereas if you do a proper move you keep your speed), failed dodge, etc

[defekt]

I preferred it when Secondaries were hard-hitting weapons that required good accuracy* and timing to maximise their full potential; they also tended to generate significant heat so you really did need to pick your best moment.  These days -- hark at Old Farther Time here -- Secondaries are mostly AOE spam buttons.

 

* Once the mental AOE range was reined in.

[Mergaz]

The withdrawal of the overall management of resources was made thinking in the campaign of VETs call "Increase the speed" ... No one needs to recharge, no need to stop using dodge, do not have to stop flying, do not expect the cooling of weapons. All is fast, fast, fast... COOOOOOL.

Edited by Mergaz, 04 April 2015 - 03:35 AM.

[defekt]

The withdrawal of the overall management of resources was made thinking in the campaign of VETs call "Increase the speed" ... No one needs to recharge, no need to stop using dodge, do not have to stop flying, do not expect the cooling of weapons. All is fast, fast, fast... COOOOOOL.

IIRC quite a number of the weapon changes (RoF, AoE, base damage etc.) were tweaked to satisfy the prevailing desire to soften the effectiveness of the then almighty alpha strike.  The thing is those changes were made against the backdrop of overall low mech mobility, when the true counter to alpha strike effectiveness was/is high mech mobility. 

[AsianJoyKiller]

 

IIRC quite a number of the weapon changes (RoF, AoE, base damage etc.) were tweaked to satisfy the prevailing desire to soften the effectiveness of the then almighty alpha strike.  The thing is those changes were made against the backdrop of overall low mech mobility, when the true counter to alpha strike effectiveness was/is high mech mobility. 

 

Please don't respond to Mergaz's propaganda. He has an agenda to turn Hawken into a MWO clone, willing to completely make up lies to support his points, and will ignore any attempts to point out the truth.

I've learned he should be ignored, and likely reported, whenever he does this, as he doesn't contribute fruitfully to discussions.

[RedVan]

I was playing a match the other day.

 

Nice one, but you missed April Fools day by a couple ;)

[defekt]

Please don't respond to Mergaz's propaganda. He has an agenda to turn Hawken into a MWO clone, willing to completely make up lies to support his points, and will ignore any attempts to point out the truth.

I've learned he should be ignored, and likely reported, whenever he does this, as he doesn't contribute fruitfully to discussions.

I haven't spent pages banging my head against his posts; however, should that time come I might very well arrive at the same resolution you have.  Until such time, and with respect, I'll reply to whom I damn well please.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I haven't spent pages banging my head against his posts; however, should that time come I might very well arrive at the same resolution you have.  Until such time, and with respect, I'll reply to whom I damn well please.

If it was really "with respect", then no, you wouldn't.

[defekt]

If it was really "with respect", then no, you wouldn't.

EDIT: Resolving this the Gentlemanly way: PMs At Dawn!

Edited by defekt, 04 April 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Scow2]

... I like the game as it is, mostly. Except I don't like Dodge being decoupled from fuel. 

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I can re-adapt.

 

What I want is a survey in-game for new players at the 4:00 hour mark, aimed at figuring out their issues and understanding.  If we can get even a 10% retention rate, we'd be at 2000 players in 10 months...

[AsianJoyKiller]

I can re-adapt.

 

What I want is a survey in-game for new players at the 4:00 hour mark, aimed at figuring out their issues and understanding.  If we can get even a 10% retention rate, we'd be at 2000 players in 10 months...

Be wary of surveys, as ADH claimed that's what "what people wanted' and led to Ascension.

[Superkamikazee]

Really good point AJK. Maybe a slightly higher TTK and a minor tweak to ROF could result in a more favorable pacing. Newb friendlier perhaps.

Have to get some test servers up, throw some low tier players in, and a separate server for the pro peeps. This back and forth on the forums about speed, feel, and what not requires data for further discussion.

[LoC_TR]

Really good point AJK. Maybe a slightly higher TTK and a minor tweak to ROF could result in a more favorable pacing. Newb friendlier perhaps.

Have to get some test servers up, throw some low tier players in, and a separate server for the pro peeps. This back and forth on the forums about speed, feel, and what not requires data for further discussion.

A longer RoF doesn't necessarily produce a higher TTK, it would definitely have the opposite effect in some cases I believe. Even if you boosted health directly and slightly increased speeds, the biggest variable for the TTK is the players skill. The ability to avoid damage and shoot accurately will be the biggest determining factor.

Once again though we start delving too deep into balance changes when crucial foundation issues are still present. For the most part I speak of THE MAPS, most of them were not created for the game we have today thus exacerbating a host of other issues!

[defekt]

Once again though we start delving too deep into balance changes when crucial foundation issues are still present. For the most part I speak of THE MAPS, most of them were not created for the game we have today thus exacerbating a host of other issues!

Quite so.  The map builders took an awful lot of flak over the years but it really wasn't entirely their fault.  The designers were changing their minds so often that the map builders had almost no chance of keeping up; they could only design a map for the game as it was at that moment. 

[Xacius]

Do you believe we should go back to the ye olde days when the secondary weapons have a slower rate of fire?  I've actually never thought of this, it definitely is important.

 

It definitely would make combat more punishing.  The problem with the current ROF is that it's too short to abuse/follow up with.  It's especially noticeable in corner-play.  If your opponent fires a TOW preumptively, by the time you make it around the corner to abuse their misfire, their fuzzy bunnyng TOW is up again and they blast you anyway (this is especially true if they're playing on the defensive). 

 

It makes corner engagements pretty stale. 

 

The entire reasoning for the lower cooldown was to make the game easier/less punishing.  Yet, all it does is reward spamfiring by making it less punishing. 

 

There's a fine line between too little and too much accessibility.  Personally, I think the remote detonation already makes TOW's and GL's as accessible as they need to be.  I'm all for longer cooldowns. 

Edited by Xacius, 05 April 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Xacius]

The withdrawal of the overall management of resources was made thinking in the campaign of VETs call "Increase the speed" ... No one needs to recharge, no need to stop using dodge, do not have to stop flying, do not expect the cooling of weapons. All is fast, fast, fast... COOOOOOL.

 

What?

[Superkamikazee]

I'd like to see what removing Tech would do for overall pacing. Matches have a very different feel when a Tech is involved on either team vs matches with no Techs. 

[Xacius]

I'd like to see what removing Tech would do for overall pacing. Matches have a very different feel when a Tech is involved on either team vs matches with no Techs. 

 

I feel the same way.  Team modes felt a lot better/less cheesy before the tech was implemented.  

[LoC_TR]

I'd like to see what removing Tech would do for overall pacing. Matches have a very different feel when a Tech is involved on either team vs matches with no Techs.

IIRC most of our TPG matches were played with no tech, and it really varies and largely relies on player skill. For the most part I believe it speeds up the pace, you're going to have larger team wipes and the deaths may come quicker. On the other hand it makes players more defensive without the pushing power of a tech on their side.