123 replies to this topic

[Lightangel112]

This, no, please no.

 

Vertical progression is bad, m'kay?  We have a minimal amount of it now and it's mostly harmless (I'd not mind seeing all of it go away, but that's another thread), I don't want to see anything coming back from the patch of market... err, ascension

Ok I didn't see this was 3:40am when I wrote it so;  point taken but I do want more movement choices, but still it was interesting :). I'd like to duel how someone put it, as an actual dance parring secondary fire shots, slugging it out :)

[?FTD? eXeon]

I kind of like the idea of increased health except buffing C's by 20% seems insane to me even if it is relative to other buffs.

[defekt]

Armour buff vs less spammy Secondaries.  Hm.  Well, with my previous post about the dance still fresh in my mind, I'd much prefer less spammy Secondaries but if an overall armour buff is easier to do then why not give it a try at least.  To my mind a simple armour buff won't bring back any style to the game play, largely because crude changes such as this aren't the answer, but it will extend the TTK by a shade, and a slightly increased TTK is generally on the list of Wants so why not pick that low-hanging fruit first. 

[LU0P10]

I would say around 60 health more to every mech. Yes - exactly the same number from A to C, which would mean a relatively small increase to C -class mechs, to balance out a bit C-mech meta.

Edited by LU0P10, 07 April 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

Hey, everyone spam their secondary because they reduced cooldown and throw heath management to sheit. Let's fix this with more health for everyone.

 

So much for giving assault to the new players before a meta shift again.

[M4st0d0n]

And of course, dont make it subtle. 20% is ridiculously high enough. That"s how you balance a game brah.

[Superkamikazee]

I'm all for a 20% boost to armor.  A's are just a bit too weak at the moment, and a slight boost would give them more staying power, even if it's a relative gain.  At that, it may just serve to make sustained weapons more powerful than they already are (more health = higher dps shows more).  I'd recommend a slight nerf to sustained (3-4dps per weapon, depending on the weapon) to complement the armor change.  

 

Could be worth looking into more. Where art thou test servers?

[LU0P10]

Yeah 20 % across the line seems a bit wonky... and it wouldn't make weaker A-mechs that much stronger. Brawler would gain +160 more armour while scout with only 64 armour increment?  So Brawler would become even stronger against light mechs. No thanx. I adjust my suggestion: something like 50-80 more health across the board, same number for every mech. 

[Scow2]

 

Vertical progression is bad, m'kay?  We have a minimal amount of it now and it's mostly harmless (I'd not mind seeing all of it go away, but that's another thread), I don't want to see anything coming back from the patch of market... err, ascension

Well, if MK 1s, 2s, and 3s all take different numbers of item slots, it's not strictly a vertical progression. Instead, it's trading power for versatility - Do I want to have one really big kaboom per life, or would I like being able to deploy a smaller kaboom and a shield per life? (of course... I think item prices need to really come down)

[HugeGuts]

I don't like the current secondary refire rate. It makes the game too spammy. Also less thought engaging, as deciding to hold onto your cool down or fire as fast as possible doesn't matter.

 

I am for an increase in cool down times. However, fuel use for ground dodging would need to make a comeback at the same time. Infinite dodging + Slower refire rate = Good luck ever hitting anything.

Edited by HugeGuts, 07 April 2015 - 06:04 AM.

[M4st0d0n]

This, no, please no.

 

Vertical progression is bad, m'kay?  We have a minimal amount of it now and it's mostly harmless (I'd not mind seeing all of it go away, but that's another thread), I don't want to see anything coming back from the patch of market... err, ascension

 

Two or three years ago internals were giving bonus AND malus if I remember correctly. And the tree was not significant, except for the mobility branch. Of course it was not balanced, but at least at that time, they were trying to make it more of a sidegrade thing than a direct vertical progression.

 

Because let's face it, it still is, more than ever. There is simply no sidegrade, no tweak. Just purchaseable direct upgrades.

[Silverfire]

Burst would need a buff or sustained would need a nerf (I'm leaning towards burst buff), and Heat generation (maybe reduced a slight slight bit) would have to be looked at as well to balance it all out.

Edited by Silverfire, 07 April 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[Fstroke]

Well from what I remember it also puts a heavy emphasis, almost too much emphasis, on primary weapons. I like the current ROF (as it fits in the current meta) but I also see the point that they can be a little spam like. I think that heat generation could increase for secondaries. That would create scenarios where people have to manage their shots a bit more.

Along with that I think that the remote det mechanics need to change. Simply clicking the button twice is lame and has gotten me into bad habits. I'm thinking something like setting a fuse. Perhaps a damage buff to make up for those changes

[AsianJoyKiller]

Hey, everyone spam their secondary because they reduced cooldown and throw heath management to sheit. Let's fix this with more health for everyone.

 

So much for giving assault to the new players before a meta shift again.

 

And of course, dont make it subtle. 20% is ridiculously high enough. That"s how you balance a game brah.

Yes. Be sarcastic and insulting because of a proposed change that isn't set in stone, than hasn't been confirmed to be happening in any form, or any time soon.

What an entirely reasonable reasonable response.

[kasei]

I think the health increase would help, but I agree that the increase should be flat across the board, or scaled differently for the different classes. The Brawler's health, for example, would increase too much.

The change wouldn't single-handedly achieve what a lot of players are describing here, but I do think it's just one piece of the puzzle. It would probably be better to implement this change by itself anyway, just to see how the game evolves. Don't want to throw too many variables into the mix at once.

Edited by kasei, 07 April 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[MomOw]

I agree that straight "+20%" thought seems simple could lead to �ber C-class while dancing "A" would be harder to use (longer dance)...

So why not +65 armor for A class (+20% of average armor), +80 armor for B class (+15% of average armor) and +90 for C class (+12.5% of average armor).

Give it a try and adjust balancing after few months if needed.

 

A-Class

Berserker   355 -> 420

Infiltrator     330 -> 395

Reaper       350 -> 415

Scout          320 -> 385

Technician  315 -> 380

 

B-Class

Assault             565 -> 645

Assault G2       585 -> 665

Bruiser             555 -> 635

CT-R                525 -> 605

Predator           510 -> 590

Raider              515 -> 595

Sharpshooter   470 -> 550

 

C-Class

Brawler             800 -> 890

Grenadier         740 -> 830

Incinerator        750 -> 840

Raider G2         675 -> 765

Rocketeer         730 -> 820

Vanguard          685 -> 775

 

[(KDR) Seron16]

I hate to be the disagreer here, but the fixes to the "speed" of the game, the TTK, etc., have almost always revolved around HP and literal movement speed.

 

I really think that there was a good bit of discussion in the last page or two about slowing down weapon fire, changing heat production values, etc to create a more tactical/chesslike and interesting/enjoyable fight. Changing HP (again) so battles last longer is not that whatsoever, and it pains me to see that being brought up as the fix (again).

[Scow2]

I think the health increase would help, but I agree that the increase should be flat across the board, or scaled differently for the different classes. The Brawler's health, for example, would increase too much.

Nonsense. The brawler can never have too many hitpoints 

[Xacius]

I hate to be the disagreer here, but the fixes to the "speed" of the game, the TTK, etc., have almost always revolved around HP and literal movement speed.

 

I really think that there was a good bit of discussion in the last page or two about slowing down weapon fire, changing heat production values, etc to create a more tactical/chesslike and interesting/enjoyable fight. Changing HP (again) so battles last longer is not that whatsoever, and it pains me to see that being brought up as the fix (again).

 

Weapon fire rates, reliability, and even projectile speed are significant contributors to the game's pace.  Everything is a factor, imo.  

[(KDR) Seron16]

Weapon fire rates, reliability, and even projectile speed are significant contributors to the game's pace.  Everything is a factor, imo.  

I wholeheartedly agree. But to see HP boosts being proposed again is a not the right factor to tweak.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I wholeheartedly agree. But to see HP boosts being proposed again is a not the right factor to tweak.

It is one of the right factors, but not the only factor.

[(KDR) Seron16]

It is one of the right factors, but not the only factor.

I digress. I made my point, but now its time to let the discussions continue.

[AsianJoyKiller]

I digress. I made my point, but now its time to let the discussions continue.

I think I get what you meant. I actually sent a PM to CptJosh and SciFi about holding off on making any changes to armor values without adjusting anything else, because that was a mistake ADH made.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 07 April 2015 - 03:42 PM.

[Nept]

I'll leave that to you!

[AsianJoyKiller]

I'll leave that to you!

It was pretty short. Basically, "This was one of the problems with Ascension. So yeah. Be careful."

[Ninja_Goat]

When I first started playing Hawken at the start of open beta,  A-class mechs ruled.  Scouts and Infiltrators were everywhere, and C-class mechs were a joke.

 

The reason was movement and Armour levels.  A-class mechs moved fast, and had to be hit too many times for an average player to kill.  

The A-class would dance around the B or C class, take a hit or 2, but get the kill then tank up on the health orb, and rinse and repeat.

 

It was very common to see 4 or more A-class's (usually Scouts) on 1 team, and they ran in packs like wolves decimating more balanced teams.

 

Today every mech feels viable, and feels it has a defined role (with the exception of G2's which are a good idea implemented very badly).  

I feel that I can kill any mech with any other mech, and that was not the case in open beta.

 

To blanket increase Armour is a very dangerous game to play, and should be very carefully considered. Even small changes can make a huge difference to gameplay.

 

The previous dev team got this badly wrong time and again, but did eventually arrive at the most balance state I have seen.

[(KDR) Seron16]

I think I get what you meant. I actually sent a PM to CptJosh and SciFi about holding off on making any changes to armor values without adjusting anything else, because that was a mistake ADH made.

Not to be offensive in any way, but if you have that kind of power that's quite amazing to say the least. I appreciate it nonetheless mate.

 

 

To blanket increase Armour is a very dangerous game to play, and should be very carefully considered. Even small changes can make a huge difference to gameplay.

 

Very true.

[LoC_TR]

Weapon fire rates, reliability, and even projectile speed are significant contributors to the game's pace. Everything is a factor, imo.

I agree with this statement. You could even look to dodge distance as a factor, which is different for each class.

Everything must work in conjunction to create a nice even flowing pace to the game. There are many minute details that need to be flushed out so you can get a proper scope. I recommend the Devs spectate multiple skill levels of play and to study the effects of each factor to determine the necessary changes.

Edit: also I just wanna thank AJK and the community for keeping the topic civil. This is an important issue and I believe it's a large reason for the fall.

 

edit: phone grammer.

Edited by LoC_TR, 08 April 2015 - 08:49 PM.

[bacon_avenger]

Well, if MK 1s, 2s, and 3s all take different numbers of item slots, it's not strictly a vertical progression. Instead, it's trading power for versatility - Do I want to have one really big kaboom per life, or would I like being able to deploy a smaller kaboom and a shield per life? (of course... I think item prices need to really come down)

We already have this in place.  You can use an item more than once with a tradeoff of not having the same versatility (items take more slots).
 
Making them more powerful is adding back more of the vertical progression we saw in ascension, where you get more powerful as you 'level up' vs horizontal where you have more options as you 'level up'.
 
Personally, I never want to see this reintroduced into Hawken again.  It was just a bad time all the way around and all but destroyed the 'skill trumps level' claim we had before it came out.  The steam patch did a lot to fix that.
 

Two or three years ago internals were giving bonus AND malus if I remember correctly. And the tree was not significant, except for the mobility branch. Of course it was not balanced, but at least at that time, they were trying to make it more of a sidegrade thing than a direct vertical progression.

Because let's face it, it still is, more than ever. There is simply no sidegrade, no tweak. Just purchaseable direct upgrades.

Yeppers, that how it was before ascension, all the way back to alpha. I would love to see internals go back to that instead of the 'all good, no bad' we have now.

The skill tree was, or so ADH claimed, deliberately nerfed hard as it was supposed to be just a placeholder until they come up with a horizontal system... which we never got and had the opposite forced upon us with ascension.

But this is off topic for the thread, for which I apologize. If anyone wants to discuss/debate this further, lets open a new thread and go from there.

Edited by bacon_avenger, 07 April 2015 - 06:21 PM.

[Nept]

Edit: also I just wanna thank AJK and the community for keeping the topic civil. This is an important issue and I believe it's a large reason for the fall.

STFU

[LoC_TR]

STFU

Get a job nept.

 

YOU'RE A LEECH ON SOCIETY!!!!!

Edited by LoC_TR, 07 April 2015 - 11:22 PM.

[Xacius]

I think I get what you meant. I actually sent a PM to CptJosh and SciFi about holding off on making any changes to armor values without adjusting anything else, because that was a mistake ADH made.

 

 

Everything is linked.  

 

If armor value are changed, all aspects related to TTK need to be examined as well.  Speed, weapon DPS/burst, etc... 

 

 

 

We can propose changes all we want, and part of the problem with major, sweeping updates like a 20% change to armor or a 15% change to heat gen, etc... have far greater ramifications than we can reasonably assess from a speculative standpoint.  Solution? We need public test servers. 

 

Start pushing builds with armor value changes, speed changes, etc... to a select couple of servers in each region.  Allow players to test and report back.  If these developers are truly involved, and they appear to be doing a great job so far, then this is probably the best bet.  We could even integrate it into a weekly event!  That new car smell, every week.  

 

Star Citizen is doing something similar with their public test universe, where they push new builds early to a separate test client.  

 

I understand that separate client builds are probably a ways off, but it's definitely something that should be prioritized in the near future, imo.  

[Superkamikazee]

Everything is linked.  

 

If armor value are changed, all aspects related to TTK need to be examined as well.  Speed, weapon DPS/burst, etc... 

 

 

 

We can propose changes all we want, and part of the problem with major, sweeping updates like a 20% change to armor or a 15% change to heat gen, etc... have far greater ramifications than we can reasonably assess from a speculative standpoint.  Solution? We need public test servers. 

 

Start pushing builds with armor value changes, speed changes, etc... to a select couple of servers in each region.  Allow players to test and report back.  If these developers are truly involved, and they appear to be doing a great job so far, then this is probably the best bet.  We could even integrate it into a weekly event!  That new car smell, every week.  

 

Star Citizen is doing something similar with their public test universe, where they push new builds early to a separate test client.  

 

I understand that separate client builds are probably a ways off, but it's definitely something that should be prioritized in the near future, imo.  

 

This.

[LU0P10]

Yup... my suggestion towards the health increments was just direct answer when developer was asking what do I think of +20% ... 

...never intended that sound as a holy grail of solutions.

[Grizzled]

I thought about this a lot from the other night. One of the major changes in the way things are paced now, is that I no longer feel like I am a pilot. I am not going to try to quantify why that is. I will say that I have not felt that way in a long time and I miss it. 

 

I remember when position was everything, players only fired when they had a shot. 

 

With the speed change, ping has become a critical component in the equation. I would love to see the game go in a direction where planning and skill trump ping and reflexes. I doubt that I will tho, and yet still, here I am. 

[Xacius]

I thought about this a lot from the other night. One of the major changes in the way things are paced now, is that I no longer feel like I am a pilot. I am not going to try to quantify why that is. I will say that I have not felt that way in a long time and I miss it. 

 

I remember when position was everything, players only fired when they had a shot. 

 

With the speed change, ping has become a critical component in the equation. I would love to see the game go in a direction where planning and skill trump ping and reflexes. I doubt that I will tho, and yet still, here I am. 

 

 

where planning and skill trump ping and reflexes

 

You said "planning and skill," but I think you just meant "planning." 

 

In fast-paced FPS titles, reflexes are a large component of the skill-factor.  Hawken was never meant to be a slow/tactical mech game, nor has it ever played like one.  Even back in early OB, speeds were around what they are now (a little slower, definitely more ground-based).  I do agree that the game has become more spammy.  The 2-second TOW/GL timers are a bit overkill.  I would love to see those increased to 3.5-4 seconds.  Less spam, more timing/precision required.  

Edited by Xacius, 09 April 2015 - 05:36 PM.

[FlamingBeaker]

It would be nice if there was a new game mode that accommodated high ping players (and new players) by utilizing slower movement, higher armor, lag-resistant weaponry, etc. Maybe there is a use for a high TTK after all. Just enable it for the one new game mode, not change the entire game around it. 

 

Won't happen for a long time, if ever, but what if....

[spinningchurro]

[spinningchurro]

I'm obviously referring to the pace of gameplay one must maintain when piloting the Incinerator.  It is a heavy, imposing pace that continously asserts its presence, yet must move fluidly to spread the fire to those who would dare taste it.  A lot like salsa.

[RedVan]

It would be nice if there was a new game mode that accommodated high ping players (and new players) by utilizing slower movement, higher armor, lag-resistant weaponry, etc. Maybe there is a use for a high TTK after all. Just enable it for the one new game mode, not change the entire game around it.

Won't happen for a long time, if ever, but what if....

Or just have servers in more regions so people don't need to suffer with high ping, and have specific servers dedicated to newbs....

Much less of a draw on dev time my idea is!