71 replies to this topic

[draco7891]

[HWK]Deuy, on March 29 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Someone having an easier time healing you is less disruptive than someone having an easier time killing you.

Someone healing the guy I'm trying to kill is massively disruptive to my attempts to kill him. Especially while said target gets to continue shooting at me while being healed.

Will we see MMR restrictions on this mech_ Will it be limited to medium matches_ Because anyone with even a hint of tactical forethought is going to turn this mech into a monster.

If it's explicitly designed to help out lower-skill players enjoy the game on their terms, then it should be explicitly restricted to lower-skill matches. Making a low-skill mech usable in even moderate-skill games is inviting disaster.

Draco

[TheLostVikings]

draco7891, on March 29 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

[HWK]Deuy, on March 29 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Someone having an easier time healing you is less disruptive than someone having an easier time killing you.

Someone healing the guy I'm trying to kill is massively disruptive to my attempts to kill him. Especially while said target gets to continue shooting at me while being healed.

Would you rather the 2nd enemy be a SS powershotting you_ Or a raider shooting at you with his MIRV and EOC_

Fighting 2 on 1 is usually a losing proposition unless you are much better than the ones you are fighting.

And if it's 2 on 2 you can focus fire the Tech into the ground then fight the remaining one afterwards.

Edited by TheLostVikings, March 29 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[[HWK]Deuy]

draco7891, on March 29 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Someone healing the guy I'm trying to kill is massively disruptive to my attempts to kill him. Especially while said target gets to continue shooting at me while being healed.

I was just about to type pretty much exactly what TheLostVikings said above me.  Having a second strictly-offense damage dealer focused on you in place of the technician seems just as detrimental.   Especially when you have the option of targeting the technician and removing his support without incurring the damage that 2 offensive mechs can inflict.

draco7891, on March 29 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

If it's explicitly designed to help out lower-skill players enjoy the game on their terms, then it should be explicitly restricted to lower-skill matches. Making a low-skill mech usable in even moderate-skill games is inviting disaster.

This is a very narrow-minded position to take, I'm not really sure I would jump to the same conclusions in any game I've played.  Ease of use and being over-powered are not mutually inclusive.  Ryu is one of the easiest Street Fighter character's to pick up and play, but he's considered fairly balanced in competitive play.  The Soldier is one of the simplest classes to understand and execute with in TF2, and I don't think he breaks the game at high levels.

[draco7891]

TheLostVikings, on March 29 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

And if it's 2 on 2 you can focus fire the Tech into the ground then fight the remaining one afterwards.

[HWK]Deuy, on March 29 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Having a second strictly-offense damage dealer focused on you in place of the technician seems just as detrimental.   Especially when you have the option of targeting the technician and removing his support without incurring the damage that 2 offensive mechs can inflict.

Yes, I would prefer a 2v1 be two damage dealers, for the simple fact that two damage dealers need to be exposed to my fire in order to influence the outcome of the duel. Both of you are assuming that the Tech will be visible/exposed while doing his job; the exact opposite will be true. Because the healing beam is sticky, and because the beam can go around corners, the most effective use of the Tech will be in cover, while the damage dealer pops out.

There won't be a chance to focus-fire the Tech down, or even to target him. Especially not with the new explosive feathering in place and a ~50m range on the Nanobot Rifle. Never mind that the Tech's still an A-class, with A-class mobility and A-class agility, and A-class dodge cooldown and A-class fuel generation/consumption.

There are myriad places on the maps where a skilled pilot can funnel a 2v1 such that the rear enemy has little/no shot. With a Tech, that won't matter, as they only need exposure of their friendly. The Tech will let them simply power through and get close, instead of having to back off or work for a flanking maneuver.

Balance should not revolve around "oh, well a 2v1 would be impossible anyway, so it's OK to make too-powerful combos". That's a bad strategy.

[HWK]Deuy, on March 29 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

This is a very narrow-minded position to take, I'm not really sure I would jump to the same conclusions in any game I've played.  Ease of use and being over-powered are not mutually inclusive.

The essential difference between your examples and the Tech is that the Tech will start out effective, and only get more so as skill increases. Ryu and the Soldier are moderately powerful as FOOS, but they tend to cap out and be only moderately powerful at high skill levels as well (which is why they balance off: they start moderately powerful and their power-to-skill curve is relatively flat). A ~63/sec heal rate in Hawken will be very effective in a noob match, and instead of capping out and being only moderately powerful, will be a dominant force.

Draco

[SirCannonFodder]

[HWK]Deuy, on March 29 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Other weapons do damage when they hit, so a missed shot is an attempt at doing damage.  If your teammate is at full health, connecting with the repair beam has no potential to be beneficial (unlike damage-dealing weapons, or the TF2 Medic gun which significantly boosts the teammate's max HP).  Yes, we could have made healing much harder to do, but this mech is supposed to be for beginners, which brings me to:

Except with the incredibly low heat generation of the repair gun, even if they're healing a full-health teammate for a second or two it wouldn't make much difference. Doing it this way means there's no encouragement in the mechanics for them to start thinking tactically, since there's no repercussions for just constantly healing one guy, there's no reason for them to start learning how to read the health of their teammates.

Bwnerstorms, on March 29 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

So picture a 2v2 engagement- I imagine the Tech is gonna get focused, it won't be "lol OP healing lol" very effectively while running for it's life.

Except with a self-healing sticky beam, they'll be quite capable of both healing AND running.

[draco7891]

2 Techs healing each other.

Where is your god now_

Draco

[Guiotine]

draco7891, on March 29 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

2 Techs healing each other.

Where is your god now_

Draco

Edited by Guiotine, March 29 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Dracoslayer16]

Few things:

-The beam sounds very irritating and I do not look forward to hearing it all the time.  Hopefully it's just a placeholder for another sound in the works.
-As much as I like sticky targeting for heal beams in games, I can't say I agree with having it in Hawken, a skill based game.
-At one point in the video the beam turns green, what does that mean_
-Right now the heal seem pretty effective yet it seems to take almost zero heat to use, I do not agree with this and believe support roles should have to manage their heat just as much as everyone else.

[Sylhiri]

Isn't there two weeks (_) to the patch. I'm pretty sure this stuff is subject to change.

[Guiotine]

Dracoslayer16, on March 29 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Few things:

-The beam sounds very irritating and I do not look forward to hearing it all the time.  Hopefully it's just a placeholder for another sound in the works.
-As much as I like sticky targeting for heal beams in games, I can't say I agree with having it in Hawken, a skill based game.
-At one point in the video the beam turns green, what does that mean_
-Right now the heal seem pretty effective yet it seems to take almost zero heat to use, I do not agree with this and believe support roles should have to manage their heat just as much as everyone else.

From earlier this very thread:

[HWK]Deuy, on March 29 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

That video isn't the most current build, the sound FX on the torch and the VFX on the primary gun are placeholder.  The values for heat/damage/repair are most likely not a final version either.

Primary isn't an SMC... we used an SMC as a placeholder until that new model was in so we just called it a modded SMC internally.  It isn't hitscan, it fires projectiles which are affected by gravity, and it's not great past mid range.  Debuff doesn't last very long, it's hard to stack 3 times unless they're pretty close so you can land all your shots in succession.

Green beam is repair mode with special ability active.  It generates heat but none of the repair modes create heat if you aren't actually repairing armor (e.g. your teammate is at full health).

Now you can speculate better-- carry on!

[Rahh_Vende]

draco7891, on March 28 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Did some quick dirty math from the video.

Red (damage beam) healed 23 damage in 2 seconds, or 11.5 HP/sec, while still doing damage. Damage looks like ~25/sec.

The healing's effective, but..
This guy does have a secondary. A self-healing, sticky secondary. Now think of two of these guys running circles around you with A-class agility and 20 points in mobility, while draining and popping you with damage debuffing primary...

[_Caffeine_]

Rahh_Vende, on April 01 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

draco7891, on March 28 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Did some quick dirty math from the video.

Red (damage beam) healed 23 damage in 2 seconds, or 11.5 HP/sec, while still doing damage. Damage looks like ~25/sec.

The healing's effective, but..
This guy does have a secondary. A self-healing, sticky secondary. Now think of two of these guys running circles around you with A-class agility and 20 points in mobility, while draining and popping you with damage debuffing primary...

Not as scary as any other 2 mechs.