90 replies to this topic

[Spliff_Craven]

SrEizO, on January 15 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Something as simple as mom's calling and I have to quit....

I think that's generally used as a QQ card. Especially if a player does it often.

The whole idea behind this initiative is a punishment for people that drop frequently from matches. Like I mentioned "Deathmatch would be the only match this could not apply to". Why should team players consistently suffer_
The "I have to go" card is also used often by people trying to change teams and switch to a winning side. I've personally seen a player attempt it several times in a match. I know I'm not alone.

nokari, on January 15 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

DerMax, on January 15 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

There are many valid reasons to leave a match either voluntarily or involuntarily. How are you going to differentiate between ragequitters and people with an odd PC configuration leading to frequent game crashes or PC reboots_

A game crash, PC crash, or dropped internet connection should register to the server differently than someone manually clicking "Leave Match" through ingame menus.

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Dermax:

You're right there is no way to truly differentiate between the various reasons someone exits a game. That's why a blanket policy should be implemented.

As for odd PC configs... These are legitimate claims.
That's what a support ticket is for. and I'm positive team Hawken will work hard at resolving it in an expedient manner.

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nokari:

As for game/PC crash/dropped internet connection_
Those can be faked in an effort to stat pad as dropping from games currently does.
We need to resolve the issue for a greater good.

The purpose is not to punish people with occasional "accidents".
You gotta admit there are players,{several come to mind, who's names I won't mention as we players generally know who they are}, that do it too often in a day.

The reputation of "leavers and ragequitters" is one for a reason.
I'm just proposing a solution to remedy that and leave the team matches for team players. After all the "droppers" will always be able to join a DM without penalty.

[Spliff_Craven]

nokari, on January 15 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

The two options that seem the most valid to me are:

1. After leaving a match, XP and HC gain is penalized by a small percent for a specific time limit. Say something like 10 minutes. Additionally quitting during that time period increases the penalty cumulatively and resets the timer. Given the short time limit, the penalty should wear off after a single match, encouraging people to remain in a game.

2A. If a player quits 2 (or 3) matches during their login session, upon attempting to join their next match the system warns them that leaving another match during their session will result in them being locked out from joining any other matches for X minutes. It won't stop people from getting to play, it won't hurt someone who has had a crash, and it won't penalize or shame players that leave for something important IRL, but at least there's a limit and they are clearly warned.

2B. Instead of locking players out for a short period, only allow them to join 3-star matches. (future option that requires a larger population)

The caveat is that these shouldn't happen until after the next balancing patch in February. Otherwise people will still get frustrated from being put in unbalanced matches they don't want to be stuck in.

I agree with your first point.

As for your second point:

This could be easily circumvented by engaging in multiple login sessions.

That's why I originally stated:

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If you have a track record of leaving matches before completion you cannot join a similar match {another siege for example} until your original match is done. You could however join a DM, TDM or MA during that time keeping in mind that if you drop from that match you will to be able to join another {DM, TDM, MA} until that one is done as well.

Example:

Player drops/quits Siege which isn't done for another 30 min from point of exit,
Result: Can't join another Siege for 30 min
Player joins a Missile Assault, also quits/drops match goes on for another 25 min from point of exit,
Result: Can't join another Missile Assault for 25 min
Player joins a TDM and drops/quits match goes for another 10 minutes.
Result: Can't join another TDM for 10 min
Player could join a DM as it's all that's left.

In this circumstance if the original match was done 10 min later then the "offending player" would only have 10 min to wait. I guess if they would have wanted the 30 min great match they should have stayed to be part of it shouldn't they_

As for point 2B:

I see it having promise. On the downside I see it creating the same problem to the 3 star servers.

[Xacius]

DerMax, on January 15 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

There are many valid reasons to leave a match either voluntarily or involuntarily. How are you going to differentiate between ragequitters and people with an odd PC configuration leading to frequent game crashes or PC reboots_

Voluntary or not, leaving is still leaving.  You wouldn't want to play with someone who was DC'ing every 5 minutes because of their internet, would you_  

Drop statistics don't necessarily indicate rage-quitting, but could be used to get an overall statistic for "leave rate".  A rejoin option should be available for temporary disconnections. If the spot is filled immediately, (thereby preventing a rejoin) then I see no harm being done. In that circumstance, the drop rating should remain unscathed.

Edited by Xacius, January 15 2014 - 11:18 PM.

[nokari]

Spliff_Craven, on January 15 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

You're right there is no way to truly differentiate between the various reasons someone exits a game. That's why a blanket policy should be implemented.

Actually a person's game client could tell the difference. Crashes are automatically logged for reports, and it makes no difference whether it's a game crash or a PC crash as they both have the same result to the client. Recording when a user logs out of a server as opposed to dropping out of the client itself makes it fairly simple to identify who is quitting vs. crashing. There is no need for a blanket policy unless we're trying to be lazy here.

People with bad PC configs is a separate matter entirely and a personal issue that has to be resolved by the user. (*cough*pebcac*cough*) If they need help they can contact Support for suggestions.

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As for game/PC crash/dropped internet connection_
Those can be faked in an effort to stat pad as dropping from games currently does.
We need to resolve the issue for a greater good.

Well first of all, faked in what ways_
Secondly, the potential number of people actually going out of their way to "fake" crashes is going to be very rare. We would still resolve the issue for the greater majority and it's not possible to successfully stop everyone anyways.
If you follow option 2, then these "fakers" will still end up getting blocked/limited enough to demotivate them from trying to trick anything, because even crashes can be counted if you want to, which leads to...

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The purpose is not to punish people with occasional "accidents".

That is why I suggested 2-3 strikes before anything happens. Obviously fuzzy bunny happens to everyone on occasion, but people aren't likely to crash more than twice while they play. If they do, then we go back to the thing about PC configs and it being out of our control. The point is to step in and take action before a person can be a constant quitter.

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The reputation of "leavers and ragequitters" is one for a reason.
I'm just proposing a solution to remedy that and leave the team matches for team players. After all the "droppers" will always be able to join a DM without penalty.

Doesn't mean the game should publicly shame anyone as a quitter publicly or privately. It's crass and unsportsmanlike. Punishing people for leaving games is well enough for everyone, whether they like it or not.
If you want a happy community that will grow, you can't be preventing people from playing game types. If a person only likes playing team modes and does it legitimately up until they end up having to leave the game a couple times one day, forcing them to only be able to play non-team modes from the start will sour their experience of Hawken and drive many into quitting the game itself, which is a worse thing for all of us.

[nokari]

Spliff_Craven, on January 15 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

As for your second point:

This could be easily circumvented by engaging in multiple login sessions.

Can a person log into the game with the same account simultaneously_ I've never been able to test it so I wouldn't know. Doesn't have to be login sessions though. It could be based on server time counting from the first initial login, so it wouldn't matter how many times the person logged in/out or how many sessions they had running at the same time.

[ExtremeUnction]

I don't mean to be rude but this is stupid. Ragequitting is leaving a match because you're angry at how it's turning out. Are we trying to keep people in matches through negative reinforcement or remedy nerdrage_ Obviously, not the latter and I would suggest we don't lean into the former.

Regardless, people can leave if they want to. Computers crash. This thread should be deleted.

[Cannonaire]

ExtremeUnction, on January 16 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

I don't mean to be rude but this is stupid. Ragequitting is leaving a match because you're angry at how it's turning out. Are we trying to keep people in matches through negative reinforcement or remedy nerdrage_ Obviously, not the latter and I would suggest we don't lean into the former.

Regardless, people can leave if they want to. Computers crash. This thread should be deleted.

I couldn't agree more. You will have an upvote from me when I can. (I reached the maximum for one day_)

[nepacaka]

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1. After leaving a match, XP and HC gain is penalized by a small percent for a specific time limit. Say something like 10 minutes. Additionally quitting during that time period increases the penalty cumulatively and resets the timer. Given the short time limit, the penalty should wear off after a single match, encouraging people to remain in a game.

more frustrating variant (like it was before)
- if you leave match, you no gain XP or HC. no penalty, you just not rewarded.

[Bea5t]

DerMax, on January 15 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

There are many valid reasons to leave a match either voluntarily or involuntarily. How are you going to differentiate between ragequitters and people with an odd PC configuration leading to frequent game crashes or PC reboots_

Make the game they dropped the only game of that mode they can join again. Restrict all other games of that mode but let them play TDM, DM or MA if the game they dropped was for example Siege, as the OP suggested. After a game crash I often manage to get back in the game I was in before the crash, so this is your solution.

[nokari]

nepacaka, on January 16 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

Quote

1. After leaving a match, XP and HC gain is penalized by a small percent for a specific time limit. Say something like 10 minutes. Additionally quitting during that time period increases the penalty cumulatively and resets the timer. Given the short time limit, the penalty should wear off after a single match, encouraging people to remain in a game.

more frustrating variant (like it was before)
- if you leave match, you no gain XP or HC. no penalty, you just not rewarded.

That's worse. If they're not going to get anything out of playing any matches after they quit one, then there would be no reason for them to play at all and no penalty for quitting more matches.

[craftydus]

I don't care if you ragequit every time you're going to lose.
I don't require or support some regimented mechanic to enforce you staying past the cracking of your fragile psyche.
I don't need a stat to follow you around saying you always ragequit, if that's how you are, your reputation eventually precedes you.
I do make an ample mockery of you and your ilk if you can't bare to suffer a loss in an online videogame.
We all do.
You are sufficiently ridiculous.
I think additional advertisements to the feeble maintenance of your status as a ragequitter are unnecessary.
You have to live with yourself. Punishment enough.

[nepacaka]

i want ranked, really. i want play with who don't leave and don't stay on base in turret-mode...

[Cannonaire]

nepacaka, on January 16 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

i want ranked, really. i want play with who don't leave and don't stay on base in turret-mode...

Your requirements are too stringent for Hawken - a game based on public, ad-lib matches. If you must have compulsory and strict rules, your best option is to find a group of like-minded players in order to form private, planned matches.

Forcing other players to play only in a way which you approve is tantamount to dictatorship. I know you would object if others attempted to force you to play only how they think you should. Do not tread on the liberties of others.

*Edit/Addendum*
Sorry for singling you out and responding with an inflammatory post; it was in poor judgement and I apologize. I do agree with what you said. As soon as organized matches are supported well, it should make things easier.

Being totally honest, I'm anxious about all of these proposed 'solutions' that have the potential to cause much more harm than good, especially for people in my situation. I still firmly believe that you should not, in any way, inhibit another person's free will to leave and join in a public game. Many people play Hawken to unwind and just have fun, and it wouldn't work if everything were 'serious mode' all the time.

Thanks.

Edited by Cannonaire, January 16 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[nepacaka]

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Sorry for singling you out and responding with an inflammatory post

here not for that apologize. This is internet. I never take offense at people on the Internet, it's pretty silly in my opinion =D

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Forcing other players to play only in a way which you approve is tantamount to dictatorship. I know you would object if others attempted to force you to play only how they think you should. Do not tread on the liberties of others.

In most games when people do not retreat and continue the constant attack with me, I win.
In most games, if our technician will realize that I am the one on whom to concentrate treatment is worth, I win.
I can certainly ask a lot, but in most cases I know what I'm doing.

Spoiler

just funny match
Not so long ago I was playing a match in the siege (before the patch with the changes), I barely made kept AA, and once I was dying, the enemy immediately captured the AA. This went on for 15 minutes and the score was already 300/3000. And we lose.
I got angry and wrote in chat phrase: "tech, you are healing the wrong people..." (and I certainly added some another insulting expressions then)
In next two match Technician literally "stick" to me almost the whole game - the result of two wins with the same team, 3000/0 score, the enemy could not get me out of AA, and in return, I called the fire on himself, protecting my commands.
after the match I was written in chat on Russian: "Yeah, got it!" (difficult exclamation to translate it correct =D), to which the our technician answer, "Well, you're asked". It turned out, that he is from Russian too =D

---
i don't love dota2 and other, but I played a bit  in LoL. There Ranked, which can be played by people from the pub with a high rating. And it works well. Usually if you take just five players who play well. They still understand how to do it even without voice communication.

While I understand that at the moment it is impossible. The same people in LoL also often leave from game (very often), but in Ranked much less leavers. Maybe I'm wrong, and I just came across with normal players.

I would like to in Hawken had something like this, it is reasonable. in my opinion.

Edited by nepacaka, January 16 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[LostlnPlace]

There are more serious matters at hand imo.... i think like a revamp on mechs or the feb patch should be more dealt with then someone leaving a game because there about to **** there pants.............

[Bea5t]

Cannonaire, on January 16 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Forcing other players to play only in a way which you approve is tantamount to dictatorship. I know you would object if others attempted to force you to play only how they think you should. Do not tread on the liberties of others.

Being totally honest, I'm anxious about all of these proposed 'solutions' that have the potential to cause much more harm than good, especially for people in my situation. I still firmly believe that you should not, in any way, inhibit another person's free will to leave and join in a public game. Many people play Hawken to unwind and just have fun, and it wouldn't work if everything were 'serious mode' all the time.

Thanks.

Well this gets kinda philosophical, while I agree in general, that the liberty of playing how you like should not be touched, it does not really apply to ragequitting. Ragequitting has an enormous effect on the other players that are remaining on the server. The game experience of 11 people suffers from the behaviour of 1 guy. If you have that kind of a responsibility it is not an dictatorship to punish such a behaviour. It's really more like rules, law and order if you wish. The missing of it is anarchy or hedonism. Now the rating system is a good method to separate the anarchists from the constitutional guys, that means: if you decide to be an anarchist you'll play in an anarchists game, if you decide to follow some social rules you play in an constitutional game.

To differentiate between anarchists and bad internet/PC I suggest to leave the option to join the game in which the person just crashed and restrict other games of that game mode, as I stated before. Like this, ragequitting will have a punishment and if your game crashed you'd most likely would like to join the game you were thrown out from anyways ->-> Profit

[Ker4u]

nepacaka, on January 16 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

i want ranked, really. i want play with who don't leave and don't stay on base in turret-mode...

played siege the other day, guy traveled from base to e1 and back, in turret mode.

Spoiler

Edited by Ker4u, January 17 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[Cannonaire]

The problem with that is some people stay for most matches, but have to leave randomly - sometimes many times in one day. It is not ragequitting. I don't decide to be an anarchist; I am forced to leave by circumstances which are beyond my control. No, I'm not playing at work or somewhere I know I will have other responsibilities. It has nothing to do with my internet connection or game crashes.

I stay for the entire match most of the time (>95% of my games). I normally plan to stay until the end (barring testing or knowing I might have to leave). I do not want to be branded with a stigma because sometimes things don't work for me. I don't want to be intentionally binned with people who habitually ragequit. I just want to play in regular matches with regular players, and if they or I decide to leave, nothing should hinder that option, regardless of the reason.

Edited by Cannonaire, January 17 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[nepacaka]

Ker4u, on January 17 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

nepacaka, on January 16 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

i want ranked, really. i want play with who don't leave and don't stay on base in turret-mode...

played siege the other day, guy traveled from base to e1 and back, in turret mode.

Spoiler

I've seen it once, before Ascension. I think it is one and the same person ... and he's back!
Save me from him, I don't wanna die (q_q)

[Bea5t]

Cannonaire, on January 17 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

I stay for the entire match most of the time (>95% of my games).

Simple solution: make a hardcut at maybe 75% stay-rate. Include a warining for the player if his stay-rate drops under 80%. Make the rate only last for the last 30 games.