11 replies to this topic

[SoldierHobbes11]

Now, what determines an alternate or prestige weapon that's not really the main focus of this thread. If anything gets changed, I'd just like to see the changes I suggested in the Starter weapons discussed below. It's one thing if you buy an alternate or prestige that's difficult to use, but when your starter feels less reliable than the other two, that's when most new players will probably take issue with it. And if there are no changes, I'm perfectly okay with it too. I wrote this post not because I personally have a problem with the way things are currently structured but because I've seen many other people talk about this and it tends to be glossed over. I personally have about 300 hours in the game and I own and have maxed out all the mechs in the game (excluding the G2 assualt which I doubt I will ever get due to my personal dislike of the Point-D Vulcan). So, in this thread, I'm writing from the perspective of a new player, not a veteran player. Personally, I'm fine with the way things are right now, I just wanted to voice what others have been saying. Try to keep these in mind while reading.

Every mech in the game has three primaries to choose from (excluding the Tech and G2 assualt because they're special), and they each have their own title: Starter (or standard), Alternate and Prestige. Now, for the starter weapons, one would assume that the first weapon you get for a mech would be relatively simple to use while playing well with the mech's strengths, but still share in some of the weaknesses of the mech for balance. The alternate weapon would be available to the player to a player who likes the mech, but wants to play the mech slightly different than the type of play that the standard weapon offers. Lastly, the prestige weapon greatly magnifies the strengths of the mech, but in return magnifies the weaknesses as well. Now, in most cases, the previous is true, but I feel that a few mechs have a weapon order that doesn't quite stick to this pattern that I've noticed in the majority of the other mechs. Again, there's nothing wrong with the weapons themselves, but the issue I have is with the order in which new players are given them. The mechs I would like to adress are the Brawler, Technician, Predator, Sharpshooter and Incinerator.

Now, the starting weapon on the Brawler is the Flak cannon. Again, I have no issue with the weapon. In fact it's my favorite to use on the Brawler. However, I've got close to 300 hours on the game. Most people's gripe with the Brawler comes from new players who have a hard time with the Flak cannon. Most of them just end up having to buy the SA-Hawkins so they can play it comfortably. Now, I'm perfectly fine with the Hawkins where it is, as it does offer a different style of play to the main purpose of the brawler. But why the Point-D Vulcan (which is far easier to use than the Flak cannon and fills the same role as it) is the prestige weapon confuses me. On most other mechs, the prestige weapon is the most difficult to learn with that mech's playstyle, however with the Brawler, it's pretiege just makes it feel much easier and boring to play in comparison to the starter. Even though I have a personal dislike of using the Vulcan, I really feel it should be the starting weapon for new players to get used to the Brawler.

The Redox as a starting weapon of the technician is not really the best option. Everyone who plays technician frequently will always tell you that the RPR is far more easy and reliable to use. That's what a starter weapon should be; reliable and forgiving. Redox should definitely be the alternate, or if not, the prestiege, because using it effectively is not something a new player will be able to wrap their head around. It's far too complex for a starting weapon.

Same on the Predator. The Predator should start out with the T32 because it's simpler to understand than the Breacher. The Breacher, like the redox, is functionally more complex than the alternate weapon and really should not be what a new player trains themselves with. It's also more reliable and forgiving with it's fast reload time.

Now on the Sharpshooter and Incinerator, their starting weapons are perfect as they are. I just feel their Alternates should be their prestige weapons, because in both cases, the alternates are much more complicated and difficult to use than their prestige weapons are. Just a minor thing.

Let me know what you guys think.

Edited by SoldierHobbes11, April 17 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[WarlordZ]

Imagine going from a new vanguard to a new grenadier in your system:  You'd just be going from one Vulcan/GL mech to another, and have to do considerable leveling to have different weapons.  Experienced players could appreciate the difference between those mechs, but new players probably wouldn't.

Edited by WarlordZ, April 16 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[hendman]

You mistake the weapon designations as a weapon hierarchy.......there isn't a hierarchy between the different weapons for each mech, they just give you a different way to play that mech.

[PhasmaFelis]

Sometimes, I think, the point of standard primaries is not to be easy to use, but to teach the right way to play the class. The Technician gets a weapon that is only really effective if you're with teammates to teach you that the Tech needs to stick close by its buddies, not run off alone and get in duels. Once you've studied that lesson for a while, you're hopefully wise enough to use a more offense-oriented primary responsibly.

[SoldierHobbes11]

 WarlordZ, on April 16 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Imagine going from a new vanguard to a new grenadier in your system:  You'd just be going from one Vulcan/GL mech to another, and have to do considerable leveling to have different weapons.  Experienced players could appreciate the difference between those mechs, but new players probably wouldn't.

No, no. I never said anything about changing the Grenadier's weapons. Personally I think the vulcan should be the Alt, not the prestiege, but the Rev-GL is a perfect starting weapon for those who wish to get used to the grenadier. I didn't say all mechs needed to be changed, just the ones I mentioned.

[SoldierHobbes11]

 PhasmaFelis, on April 16 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Sometimes, I think, the point of standard primaries is not to be easy to use, but to teach the right way to play the class. The Technician gets a weapon that is only really effective if you're with teammates to teach you that the Tech needs to stick close by its buddies, not run off alone and get in duels. Once you've studied that lesson for a while, you're hopefully wise enough to use a more offense-oriented primary responsibly.

When I said easy to use, I meant easy to use, relative to the other 2 weapons for that mech, not in the game in general. The primary should introduce you to the mech and the playstyle and then gives you other options that are more difficult to use but more rewarding later on once you have the starting skill or simply a different way of playing the mech than the standard. Still, I really feel that the starting weapon should be easiest to use in terms of the role that the mech plays. Like I said with the brawler: The Vulcan and the Flak cannon fill the same role on the Brawler, but the player is stuck with the more difficult Flak cannon to first learn the Brawler with. I'm not saying it can't be done, but most people that learn the Flak cannon on the brawler and then get the Vulcan later on generally feel like they had wasted their time getting to rank 5 and the 6400 HC on a weapon that supposedly "presitiege" when it actually feels like the weapon you should've started out with.

Edited by SoldierHobbes11, April 17 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[SoldierHobbes11]

 hendman, on April 16 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

You mistake the weapon designations as a weapon hierarchy.......there isn't a hierarchy between the different weapons for each mech, they just give you a different way to play that mech.

Well then why even have names like that in the first place and why put mech rank locks on them if it's not a heirarchy_ That's just my thinking, anyways.

[McBonY]

 SoldierHobbes11, on April 16 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

(...)Well then why even have names like that in the first place and why put mech rank locks on them if it's not a heirarchy_ That's just my thinking, anyways.

You nailed the whole problem right there. Naming and the fact that weapons need to be unlocked suggest that they are upgrades, while in most cases they are not. Just sidegrades offering different style.

[SoldierHobbes11]

 McBonY, on April 17 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

You nailed the whole problem right there. Naming and the fact that weapons need to be unlocked suggest that they are upgrades, while in most cases they are not. Just sidegrades offering different style.

This is actually a minor note I hadn't considered before and I'm glad that someone brought this to my attention. They shouldn't try to give the illusion that the weapons are upgrades when in reality they aren't upgrades, more like other options. They should either present them more as sidegrades like they currently are, or use the model that I had proposed to make sure that players actually know that unlocking the later weapons will be tougher to use.

But my main point was switching out some of the starter weapons on the mechs I had mentioned, not because I personally have difficulty with them, but because I see many new players have trouble learning the mech, initially. I've got close to 300 hours in the game and I've got every mech, (excluding the G2 Assault) availble in the game at this point in time, at rank 6. I didn't make this thread from my own personal feelings with the game, but I wanted to adress an issue with new guys that most people tend to gloss over. I'm not saying that we should change everything and make Hawken easy as all hell to play, I'm just proposing a minor tweak that could help make a few mechs slightly less frustrating and more accessable to the new players of the game. After all, we were all noobs at one point. Someone has to look out for the little guy.

Again, if nothing changes, I'm perfectly fine with that too. Like I've said, I'm personally good with the way things are. I just wanted to see what the rest of the community thought about this and (if I'm lucky) what one of the Devs think about this.

[McBonY]

Well, as a begginer who has three of the mechs you mentioned in op, I disagree on your proposals regarding Tech and Pred.

Giving Hawkins to Technician from the start would only encourage people to use him more aggressively, and that's not the point. He starts with Redox so he can focus on support, and thats mainly healing and debuffs. Hawkins is better for those who like to kill stuff more than heal it, and this comes with experience ;] I'd say Redox is right where it should be.

As for Predator, Breacher is actually the safest option for him. Breacher works on any range, T32 does not. T32 forces user to into cqc, and for me it would be the same problem as with Flak Brawler.

Big "Yes!" for Hawkins as a Brawler starter though ;]

Edited by McBonY, April 17 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[SoldierHobbes11]

 McBonY, on April 17 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Well, as a begginer who has three of the mechs you mentioned in op, I disagree on your proposals regarding Tech and Pred.

Giving Hawkins to Technician from the start would only encourage people to use him more aggressively, and that's not the point. He starts with Redox so he can focus on support, and thats mainly healing and debuffs. Hawkins is better for those who like to kill stuff more than heal it, and this comes with experience ;] I'd say Redox is right where it should be.

As for Predator, Breacher is actually the safest option for him. Breacher works on any range, T32 does not. T32 forces user to into cqc, and for me it would be the same problem as with Flak Brawler.

Big "Yes!" for Hawkins as a Brawler starter though ;]

Again, I don't disagree with you, I personally feel those are good starters for the mechs. The tech should have a starting weapon that should focus on his healing ability and the predator really isn't meant for new players to begin with. I was just voicing what others had been saying about these mechs. Although the brawler is the only one that should be taken somewhat seriously. The way they label the brawler is almost as if it was the starting mech for C-classes, but with the flak cannon as the starting primary, it really doesn't feel like it. Again, I have no problems with the mech or the weapon, but I can see why people are frustrated with it at times.

As for the hawkins as a starter, I think it should still stay as the alt, because the brawler is very much a close range fighter. The Hawkins is much more suited for mid range, which deviates from the original purpose of the mech; hence why it's an alternate weapon. I'd still say the vulcan is a better starter and the flak is a better pretiege weapon. Again, just my oppinion.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Also, if I responded to you and I end up repeating myself a lot, I apologize in advance. I tend to do that a lot. xD