70 replies to this topic

[Elite_is_salty]

Off topic: The orb meta is one of the main reasons of deathballing. That is a fact.

 

The TPG league is where the best NA players, and me (a bad player, from Africa. Wow I really don't belong there lol), meet up to knock themselves out.

 

Today our go-getter team played some matches vs omni. They obviously won all games: 900-0 // 650-0 // 400-0.

 

While I honestly had good fun, the effect of the orb meta stood out to me, Namely dave who as always plays at a very high level, was simply doing this: Deploying an orb, sitting on it, and tanking dmg from 2 or 3 players without any problem, and delivering very accurate shots. I'm not exactly sure if all other members of omni were using the meta, but they mostly are, and it was a major pain trying to kill them.

 

The pace is fast, so deaths occur a lot, and therefore there was always enough orbs around, and omni players know how to use this to their advantage.

 

All in all, the thing with the meta is that it amplifies the ability of those very skilled players, and it makes beating them much much harder for less skilled teams.

 

With this meta removed, you'll see even more teamwork from the part of those skilled players who can no longer rely on their mechs to tolerate so much damage and still survive like nothing happened.

 

 

I do understand that a big chunk of them will disagree, but I can see games becoming much more fun if the meta was banned from the league.

 

I had a short talk with nept about the matter, and he told me that he has started a discussion with the devs about it, and also stated a very valid point, which is that enforcing such a rule in the current build will require verification an all that annoying time consuming stuff, but I emphasized on how much I think the community is matured, especially the TPG players, who will most definitely not cheat on such a rule if it's added.

 

There is no doubt that skilled players will never lose their edge with the removal of this meta from the league, and that it will only make things more fair to some players, and more challenging to others, and that is definitely worth adding such a rule.

 

 

Make it happen, you won't regret it!

[JeffMagnum]

While I honestly had good fun, the effect of the orb meta stood out to me, Namely dave who as always plays at a very high level, was simply doing this: Deploying an orb, sitting on it, and tanking dmg from 2 or 3 players without any problem, and delivering very accurate shots. 

 

This is something he does so often that it's actually named after him now. I'm not sure what else you'd expect against everyone's favorite #1 orblord NA.

[Elite_is_salty]

This is something he does so often that it's actually named after him now. I'm not sure what else you'd expect against everyone's favorite #1 orblord NA.

 

I do know, I've been seeing it for a long time, but seeing the effect against a decently coordinated team offense definitely was a bit surprising.

[ticklemyiguana]

 

All in all, the thing with the meta is that it amplifies the ability of those very skilled players, and it makes beating them much much harder for less skilled teams.

This is the part where I liked your post.

[LoC_TR]

I wouldn't mind in the least, anything to piss dave off. 

[Xacius]

While I honestly had good fun, the effect of the orb meta stood out to me, Namely dave who as always plays at a very high level, was simply doing this: Deploying an orb, sitting on it, and tanking dmg from 2 or 3 players without any problem, and delivering very accurate shots. I'm not exactly sure if all other members of omni were using the meta, but they mostly are, and it was a major pain trying to kill them.

 

 

#FightTheGoodFight

[Nept]

I have no issues with its removal or nerfing (nor does Dave, if you can believe it), but there'll definitely be some logistical issues to overcome.

 

*Edit*

 

Also, I'm fairly certain that every Omni member wants the Orb Lord build nerfed significantly.  As far as we're concerned, it just dumbs down the game.

Edited by Nept, 19 April 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[BaronSaturday]

You know. I'm seeing this even at my mmr range. 1968 at time of post. So it's impacting the game as a whole. I can pretty nearly insta heal someone with a green beam double orb tanking 4 guys on the AA. This might be something in my range, but I can see it's impact as transcendent. I haven't played comp, just noting it's use all around.

[Rei]

I think the general consensus is that it is unbalanced. Mostly the amount/sec they get healed is high. I wouldn't want to see it nerfed to complete oblivion since that would also just forcefully direct play elsewhere. I don't think anyone would mind it getting nerfed.

[DerMax]

Because I think the game needs as little healing as possible, I would like to see the orb item completely removed. The internals related to it can be repurposed for energy units.

[Elite_is_salty]

I didn't mention dave because I think he'll hate having it nerfed/removed, but just because he's really adapted better than anyone at taking advantage of it. I'm not surprised that omni players for example have no problem with nerfing it or whatever, but I understand that if something beneficial is there, smart people will likely take advantage.

 

 

Because I think the game needs as little healing as possible, I would like to see the orb item completely removed. The internals related to it can be repurposed for energy units.

 

Removing the orb item will be very heavy, I think that making the healing speed faster and the healing amount equal or near to the detonator's damage for example will make things MUCH better.

 

As off for orbs down off of deaths, I think those should be replaced with something new, some sort of energy that will for example recharge your ability or something.

 

I think all of us agree that healing at this point is very easily attainable, and that should not continue :)

[dorobo]

Because I think the game needs as little healing as possible, I would like to see the orb item completely removed. The internals related to it can be repurposed for energy units.

 

This happens too often. You damage a bunch of them to lower half of hp.. As you turn corner to follow them and finish you see this party going on. They all sit on top of orbs there's also technician with pants down and so on..  and you are not invited 

 

[DerMax]

I didn't mention dave because I think he'll hate having it nerfed/removed, but just because he's really adapted better than anyone at taking advantage of it. I'm not surprised that omni players for example have no problem with nerfing it or whatever, but I understand that if something beneficial is there, smart people will likely take advantage.

 

 

 

Removing the orb item will be very heavy, I think that making the healing speed faster and the healing amount equal or near to the detonator's damage for example will make things MUCH better.

 

As off for orbs down off of deaths, I think those should be replaced with something new, some sort of energy that will for example recharge your ability or something.

 

I think all of us agree that healing at this point is very easily attainable, and that should not continue :)

Also, as someone has suggested in another thread, make it impossible to suck on multiple orbs simultaneously.

[Nept]

But Xacius spends most of his time sucking on multiple balls.  I mean orbs.

[Xacius]

But Xacius spends most of his time sucking on multiple balls.  I mean orbs.

u fkn wot m8

[BariumBlue]

What do orbs add to Hawken? I've always imagined them to originally be vehicles to show off Hawkens fancy particle system.

 

I don't know, i've never found orbs to be fun or interesting, just kinda there.

[BaronSaturday]

But Xacius spends most of his time sucking on multiple balls. I mean orbs.

I love everything about you. Why is it always Xacius though?

[Nept]

For accuracy.

[BaronSaturday]

For accuracy.

That's... Hawt?

[defekt]

Make the orbs volatile so that they explode -- 50% grenade damage, say -- if they take any damage. 

 

Healing risky again?  Check.

Orblording not a thing anymore?  Check.

Do orbs still do what they're supposed to do?  Check.

Finished your meal?  Check please.

[AsianJoyKiller]

What do orbs add to Hawken? I've always imagined them to originally be vehicles to show off Hawkens fancy particle system.

 

I don't know, i've never found orbs to be fun or interesting, just kinda there.

Originally they were useful more for getting you back into combat, because repair times were so very slow.

 

But come open beta, it was obvious how powerful they were. I mean, I remember during Hawken's first tourny that my team outfitted all with orbs. We didn't have the internals back then to make them as powerful as they are now, but the fast healing and tanking potential of multiple orbs while in combat was still extremely useful.

 

Now that we have even lower amounts of armor and internals to buff orbs, they've really gotten out of hand.

[Elite_is_salty]

Make the orbs volatile so that they explode -- 50% grenade damage, say -- if they take any damage. 

 

Healing risky again?  Check.

Orblording not a thing anymore?  Check.

Do orbs still do what they're supposed to do?  Check.

Finished your meal?  Check please.

 

While I like the idea, here's what I think.

 

Every item has a drawback. Det, HE, EMP, ESM, all of those can effect the player who deployed them in the first place, that's their drawback. And the obs also has it's drawback already, as it can be used by your enemy. So adding another drawback to it would not be as fair as simply making its healing power equal to the dmg cause by the offensive items like HE and DET.

 

Also, players could still orblord. They won't do it with the enemy shooting at em, but an A would still pretty much fully heal up in 3 secs in cover, and get back repaired in a span of 7 secs.

[defekt]

While I like the idea, here's what I think.

 

Every item has a drawback. Det, HE, EMP, ESM, all of those can effect the player who deployed them in the first place, that's their drawback. And the obs also has it's drawback already, as it can be used by your enemy. So adding another drawback to it would not be as fair as simply making its healing power equal to the dmg cause by the offensive items like HE and DET.

 

Also, players could still orblord. They won't do it with the enemy shooting at em, but an A would still pretty much fully heal up in 3 secs in cover, and get back repaired in a span of 7 secs.

Hmm, no; volatile orbs would put an end to Orblording: one AoE and the orb goes off like a small bomb.  No more silly slash-dash duels around a couple of orbs.

 

The amount of healing it takes to bring an A-class back into the fight is a separate issue.

[OmegaNull]

In all honesty, I have hate orb lording but because it has become such an issue it is something that I began doing. :( I really hate the meta. 

[Amidatelion]

Broadly speaking I think the answer is pretty clear: the orbs need to be nerfed.

 

In this case I would be struggling to say that this is an issue "in competitive play" because this is an issue across the board in Hawken. Balancing it around competitive play is irrelevant because the problem is larger than skilled teams abusing orbs.

 

Skilled players are going to be able to use items an internals more effectively than unskilled players, so saying that high-tier players get more out of them is largely a given. Using orbs against high-tier players is often an issue because they are a) able to land more shots on you and b) more situationally aware and so know when to take your orb from you. I've seen lower tier players rocking the free assault and sucking on an orb, but they have no idea how to react when I just bullrush them and stand on the orb. It's a simplified example, but its that situational misunderstanding that I'm talking about.

 

The issue with Omni is that they are a unique construction within Hawken: a team of multi-game FPS players that have impecable FPS skills. Outside of Omni there's only one other player that I know of that meets that criteria and that's MSV (and oh look he's on TANG). Dave doesn't beat people with orblord or some ephemeral "skill." He beats them by knowing where to move and landing 8-9 out of every ten shots. Seriously. I sat down and counted in kill-cam the last time I ran against him. I defy you to get that kind of accuracy on the move, while leading TOWs.

 

If it's not orbs, it's going to be dets, shields, EMPs, you name it. Better players are going to use them more betterer. In this case, the orblord issue is universal and we don't need the comp scene to tell us that.

 

And for the record, I disagree with the off-topic position. Deathballing is going to stick around regardless.

[FateLovely]

I thought these cries ended ;.; 

Always failed to see why people complained to such an extent about this. 

I think it's completely fine. 

Like I read above Dave doesn't rekt face because of eggs, it's because of his general skill level. The last time I fought dave I actually dropped an egg and still went boom no slower than I would have without it. 

[Hyginos]

I've said this over and over, but I really think that damage should stop orb healing for a second or so in the same way it does to a mech that is repairing. This would keep orb builds viable for rapid re-engagement but make it impossible to tank an ungodly amount of damage by standing on them. This would also be an indirect buff to burst over sustain, which I know a lot of folks on the forum have been crying for.

[dorobo]

But it feels so good to suck on multiple ORBS.. 

 

Edited by dorobo, 20 April 2015 - 06:35 AM.

[Silverfire]

There needs to be other ways to bring A classes into competitive relevance instead of relying on items to help them along, and that really goes for everyone and every class. I think I would've won an engagement a few times against Omni if orbs weren't so strong (and my FPS wasn't tanking like a boss).

[Elite_is_salty]

I thought these cries ended ;.; 

Always failed to see why people complained to such an extent about this. 

I think it's completely fine. 

Like I read above Dave doesn't rekt face because of eggs, it's because of his general skill level. The last time I fought dave I actually dropped an egg and still went boom no slower than I would have without it. 

 

 

Well, you are viewing this from a different scope. We're talking about the impact of this in comp play.

[CraftyDus]

"they don't deserve for rekt"- Pasha

[eth0]

You can keep your health kits and extractors. When I get a private server it's no-orbs no-techs all day errrrrrrday mwahahahahaa!

[Nept]

The issue with Omni is that they are a unique construction within Hawken: a team of multi-game FPS players that have impecable FPS skills and devilishly handsome good looks.

 

I concur.

[LoC_TR]

Amidatelion, on 20 Apr 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

The issue with Omni is that they are a unique construction within Hawken: a team of multi-game FPS players that have self esteem issues.

FTFY

[Fstroke]

It's like the one issue the community isn't polarized on haha

[_incitatus]

Personally, I do not want to see the orbs removed.  I'd rather see the extractor and repair kits not stack like they do.  Make them incompatible.  

[Hyginos]

Personally, I do not want to see the orbs removed.  I'd rather see the extractor and repair kits not stack like they do.  Make them incompatible.  

 

Or rather, make the repair kit work as described. It could give more health over a longer time rather than giving more health over the same time, thus it would not increase the gathering rate.

[Nept]

 

Amidatelion, on 20 Apr 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

FTFY

 

 

Rude.

[Nov8tr]

How about you can only draw from one orb at one time. AND you can only draw from a orb so many times in a match. AND you can't just park your mech on a orb and just start blasting people. Hmmm........sounds good to me.

[Amidatelion]

WE ARE SILLY PEOPLE

 

 

Amidatelion, on 20 Apr 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

WHO LIKE TO MESS WITH OTHER PEOPLES POSTS

 

fite me nerds