48 replies to this topic

[DM30]

You can argue whether or not the large SAARE and PPA are OP (although I think people just like to ignore the downsides of both weapons), but the mech, in general, isn't OP.

 

You like to single out PPA Incin as it's "only" OP incarnation while claiming the mech's downsides keep it balanced, but I ask how many of those downsides aren't PPA-specific too? You can't say only PPA Incin is OP and then use the PPA's limitations to call the mech in general balanced.

 

The reason people call Incin OP (not just PPA) is because it does too many things well. Speaking just in general terms, leaving out PPA for now, here are its pros and cons off the top of my head:

 

Pros:

-Endless fire

-High DPS

-Cools teammates so that they can shoot longer

-Delivers heat to enemies, forcing them to retreat earlier

-Relatively fast for a C-class

-very good at suppression and area denial

 

Cons:

-Relatively low health considering it's dependence on sustain fire

-Requires presence of teammates to maximize its effectiveness

 

For cons you can argue the need to build up heat to use its secondary, but since we're leaving PPA out for the moment the spin-up time isn't an obstacle anymore, and if there are other mechs around that heat buildup is even faster.

 

 

Now, looking at the PPA Incin with large SAARE specifically:

Pros:

-One of/the highest DPS secondary in the game

-Primary also adds good DPS at closer ranges

-Very large splash radius

-Higher heat delivery to target (Not 100% certain, but almost)

-The ability to fire large SAARE without a delay between shots, maximizing damage

 

Cons:

-EMPs cause longer down-time due to spin-up

-High heat means you can't fire the PPA constantly

 

 

I'm not including heat management as a con because all mechs have to do it, and since the Incin can dump heat with its secondary its arguably easier to do in it than other mechs.

 

So, looking at that, the pros very heavily outweigh the cons of the mech. Now tell me, what is it that makes this mech not OP, exactly?

 

 

Note: I'm not saying that the Incin means guaranteed win, since a player still needs to be good enough with it to maximize its power, but in situations where you need to stall/break up an enemy advance or soften up a dug-in group, there is very little reason why you wouldn't want an Incin there. It just has too many things working for it. It's not SUPER OP, but it's not balanced.

Edited by DM30, 25 July 2015 - 07:44 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

You like to single out PPA Incin as it's "only" OP incarnation

 

(((No, just the incarnation the most people find OP., based on what other users have said here.)))

 

while claiming the mech's downsides keep it balanced,

 

(((I never said it was balanced)))

 

but I ask how many of those downsides aren't PPA-specific too? You can't say only PPA Incin is OP and then use the PPA's limitations to call the mech in general balanced.

 

(((Just to repeat, I haven't said it was balanced. I just said it wasn't OP. At least, I don't recall ever saying it was balanced. I recall saying elsewhere that it could use a few changes, though. )))

 

The reason people call Incin OP (not just PPA) is because it does too many things well. Speaking just in general terms, leaving out PPA for now, here are its pros and cons off the top of my head:

 

Pros:

-Endless fire

(((Okay)))

-High DPS

(((For PPA. Maybe M4MA but that requires a lot of shot leading)))

-Cools teammates so that they can shoot longer

(((Okay)))

-Delivers heat to enemies, forcing them to retreat earlier

(((This seems more "Best case scenario" than anything, but okay)))

-Relatively fast for a C-class

(((Okay)))

-very good at suppression and area denial

(((Okay)))

 

Cons:

-Relatively low health considering it's dependence on sustain fire

(((Okay)))

-Requires presence of teammates to maximize its effectiveness

(((Okay)))

 

For cons you can argue the need to build up heat to use its secondary, but since we're leaving PPA out for the moment the spin-up time isn't an obstacle anymore,

 

(((All of Incin's weapons have startup. BBY can start up instantly but all the weapons have noticable rev-up)))

 

and if there are other mechs around that heat buildup is even faster.

 

 

Now, looking at the PPA Incin with large SAARE specifically:

Pros:

-One of/the highest DPS secondary in the game

-Primary also adds good DPS at closer ranges

-Very large splash radius

-Higher heat delivery to target (Not 100% certain, but almost)

-The ability to fire large SAARE without a delay between shots, maximizing damage

 

Cons:

-EMPs cause longer down-time due to spin-up

-High heat means you can't fire the PPA constantly

 

 

I'm not including heat management as a con because all mechs have to do it,

 

(((But Incin has unique heat management. You cannot ignore it because it has heat management))) and since the Incin can dump heat with its secondary its arguably easier to do in it than other mechs.

 

So, looking at that, the pros very heavily outweigh the cons of the mech. Now tell me, what is it that makes this mech not OP, exactly?

 

(((I said, in general.

 

Secondly, I also consider things like range and viability in certain situations. Incin is, in many cases, one of the least capable of effectively countering an ambush. It's also not great at ambushes itself, at least at the point where other mechs outclass it. It shines at close range but midrange it's less effective than other mechs. It has a smaller fuel tank I think.

 

Yes, if someone is real good they can maximize a mech's power. That any mech. You think I want to fight a good G2 Raider pilot in close quarters?)))

 

Note: I'm not saying that the Incin means guaranteed win, since a player still needs to be good enough with it to maximize its power, but in situations where you need to stall/break up an enemy advance or soften up a dug-in group, there is very little reason why you wouldn't want an Incin there. It just has too many things working for it. It's not SUPER OP, but it's not balanced.

[comic_sans]

Incin's also completely pointless in standard 6v6 MA against a good team.  I still think the incin is a tad OP, but what it does in MA is done better by a gren or a hawkins brawler since there's no spinup time and a bit less risk of self-harm thanks to air-det secondaries.  Anything other than PPA just doesn't do enough, and papa is hella situational, even if it's a lot of situations.

Edited by cosmic_spand, 25 July 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Amidatelion]

Incin's also completely pointless in competitive 6v6 MA

Fix'd. Took it into a public yesterday. Went 12-0 before they stopped trying to take 2 on Frontline.

Even TDM (no offense) would just have taken 1 & 3 after 2 pushes.

[DM30]

 

...

 

Alright, so you don't label it as OP personally. My confusion came from the fact that I've seen several instances where in Incin debates, I've seen you chime in with "Incin isn't OP, PPA Incin is", and it wasn't clear to me in those instances that you weren't bringing up the argument as a personal one. My mistake, I guess.

 

I am very confused by this statement, though:

 

 

I haven't said it was balanced. I just said it wasn't OP.

 

If it's not balanced, but not OP, then what are you calling it? Under-powered? I need clarification here.

 

In regards to some of your other points:

 

Rev-up on weapons: Yes, they do all take time to reach their max ROF and heat gen, but aside from PPA both primaries do start generating heat right away. No, the Incin will not be able to start dealing its full damage right away no matter its weapon choice, this is true, but aside from PPA it still doesn't take long at all to build up the heat you need to start firing small SAARE shots at least.

 

Unique heat management: Heating happens faster, but aside from that the concept is still the same. All mechs have to stop firing when their heat gets critical to avoid overheating. For most mechs, you're forced to wait 3 seconds before you can shoot again. The Incin just has to spam its secondary a couple of times and then it's good to go.

 

"The pros heavily outweigh the cons" -- response: "I said in general". I'm missing how that addresses my point.

 

Ambushes: If an Incin is alone and falls victim to an ambush, that player is playing the Incin wrong. If it's ambushed with its team, unless it's being focused down it should have time to get its weapons spun up and start unleashing heat and damage on the enemy. All mechs perform poorly outside of their intended roles. A Flak Scout engaging in a mid-range DPS race in open ground is going to lose. A Sharpshooter caught in a fast face-hugging dance is going to lose (unless the Sharpshooter player is skilled enough to stay calm and chose their shots wisely). In their intended roles, those mechs are balanced however. In the Incin's intended role in a team, it's not.

 

Range: I don't personally find it very hard to hit SAARE shots up to mid range or a bit further, and SAARE is where most of the Incin's damage is coming from. Again, though, the Incin is catered toward closer-range engagements and team suppression at longer ranges. Outside of its role it fails just like any other mech does. In it's role, it's very, very powerful.

 

Again, as I said, I'm not calling the Incin an absolutely dominating force in every circumstance. I'm just saying that when it's in its role it does too many things well (high DPS, overheating enemies and crippling their ability to fight back, cooling allies, never having to stop firing) with too few consequences to keep it in line.

Edited by DM30, 25 July 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[Panzermanathod]

If it's not balanced, but not OP, then what are you calling it? Under-powered? I need clarification here.

 

(((Pfft, I'm not calling it UP. As I said, I consider Overpowered to be viable in many circumstances without any real notable weaknesses.

 

I'm a guy who grew up with fighters. I don't have "UP/Balanced/OP" as a set measure for things. There's more of a grey area. Then again, I don't generally go around calling any of the axes "balanced", partially also due to the weight/armament weirdness of this game that I'm not used to. So make of that what you will.

)))

 

In regards to some of your other points:

 

Unique heat management: Heating happens faster, but aside from that the concept is still the same. All mechs have to stop firing when their heat gets critical to avoid overheating. For most mechs, you're forced to wait 3 seconds before you can shoot again. The Incin just has to spam its secondary a couple of times and then it's good to go.

 

(((Yes, the concept is still the same but the means is different. All mechs worry about heat but Incin needs special attention. Yes, you can spam secondary a few times, but unless you have real good aim or you're in a position where you can just fire off a few shots, it's an option, but not always the best one. )))

 

"The pros heavily outweigh the cons" -- response: "I said in general". I'm missing how that addresses my point.

 

(((My response was to your question "Now tell me, what is it that makes this mech not OP, exactly?")))

 

Ambushes: If an Incin is alone and falls victim to an ambush, that player is playing the Incin wrong.

 

(((That doesn't mean that sometimes, just sometimes, any player can find themselves alone against one or multiple enemies. Either by simple mistake, bad spawn, NO ONE GOING ON AA, etc.)))

 

  In their intended roles, those mechs are balanced however. In the Incin's intended role in a team, it's not.

 

(((I'd like you to expound on this a bit more, if I may ask.)))

 

Again, though, the Incin is catered toward closer-range engagements and team suppression at longer ranges. Outside of its role it fails just like any other mech does. In it's role, it's very, very powerful.

 

(((A good pilot can use the strengths of a mech to make it powerful. Techs, Scouts, etc. And outside their roles they aren't too great either.

 

If we're going to throw in personal experiences I've had far more issues with snipers and A-classes than other Incins.)))

 

Again, as I said, I'm not calling the Incin an absolutely dominating force in every circumstance. I'm just saying that when it's in its role it does too many things well (high DPS, overheating enemies and crippling their ability to fight back, cooling allies, never having to stop firing) with too few consequences to keep it in line.

 

(((It cools everyone. Incin drains enemy heat as well.

 

As for consequences, barring raw stats, M4MA is the hardest to hit with, PPA has its own issues and strengths, EMP is extra bad for Incin's, it's less viable to be sneaky in an Incin, plus some other, admittedly minor things.)))

[DM30]

 

In their intended roles, those mechs are balanced however. In the Incin's intended role in a team, it's not.

 

(((I'd like you to expound on this a bit more, if I may ask.)))

 

 

With the other examples I mentioned, when those mechs are playing in their intended roles they're effective but not overbearingly so. IMO most other mechs in the games sit in their places well, with only a couple of exceptions (Hellfire mechs are a little bit weak because of how Hellfires are implemented, Assault is a little bit OP because its all-round-ness leaves it without significant weaknesses to speak of). While the Incin does have weaknesses, when it plays to its strengths it performs a little bit TOO well. It's not just dealing high damage to the enemy, but is also overheating its targets while keeping its allies shooting longer and never having to stop shooting itself. There are too many plusses, while the drawbacks are for the most part negated with awareness and a little management.

 

Honestly, if it didn't have the ability to shoot indefinitely I think it would be in an okay position with all of its other pros and cons. Ideally I would like to see it adjusted to focus on the heat manipulation aspects rather than being a heavy damage dealer, since it's described in-game as a support class but doesn't behave like one in its current form.

 

For the rest of your points, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree because we're clearly not getting anywhere in convincing each other and this isn't even on-topic with the OP's questions. I've said my piece, so I'm going to leave it be at that.

[MomOw]

Hummm I was wondering if 2 AC zerkers can counter tech'incin (in top ranked games) ? If so it is not that imbalanced.

 

Rock / paper / scissors / fisticuffs

Edited by MomOw, 25 July 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Well, it's extra health and some lowering defense versus two speedy guys with a damage buff special ability.

 

Even with extra health I'd say two good, fast pilots could overtake InTech.