59 replies to this topic

[Blackfoxx]

i really think that if flares were made a item it would be a great asset as sometimes you get locked on and just cant doge out of the way of hell fire missiles, therefore if we had single use flares at one point before death we can prevent missiles from hitting you.

please voice your oppinion on this and if you think its a good idea try to make it happen!!

 

~Blackfoxx

[Bazookagofer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On topic though. Hellfires are quite easy to dodge in the open none the less. Their damage is crap. Their speed is crap. Their dumbfire is crap. Pretty much everything about them is crap and they only pose a threat when there are like 3 hellfire mechs on Bunker, Eco, or Bazaar. Flares would make them even more useless then they already are.  So no I am highly against this idea.

[The_Silencer]

Considering that,

many players are piloting A Class mechas too (which have lower armour than mechs of other 2 Classes) and the fact that not everyone playing HAWKEN is a top gun or very skilled pilot... plus the fact that Rocks automatically auto-lock on while running the Special Ability (a.k.a in Turret Mode) and finally* also that mechas equipped with Hellfires as weapons can lock on others while cloaking...

 

The OP isn't suggesting such a terrible idea, IMHO.

 

So it has a point; well as an item or even as an internal and if well balanced (and probably if available for A mechs only as well).

 

Amongst many other thingies but basically that would be my first opinion on this.

 

P.S. IIRC, I suggested "similar" flares long time ago too.

[AxionOperandi]

I'm not a high level player; Hellfires are easy as fuzzy bunny to counter.

No, this is a terrible idea.

[Amidatelion]

Great idea. I think we should bind them to shift+a and shift+d as well.

[Onstrava]

The idea isn't anything new in the gaming world but the only reason they probably wouldn't do that is simply because it counters a specific mech type >>hellfires<<. Maybe if the item did something more than just that. An example perhaps it blinds you if you get too close to it or does a small amount of aoe fire damage like an upgraded version of the heat charge. Which makes me think of another idea, why not add a "firewall", item? Does a good amount of damage if you try to pass though it but you can shoot though it. Think of it like blockade but you can shoot though it and pass though it but you're going to take some damage. You can even make it this cool. Obviously it's an escape type item or an item you can use on someone who is in siege mode. Even pillar humping (going around a pillar in a circle to evade an opponant) to escape you or poke dodging. The more I think about it there is quite abit of situations you can use a "firewall", type item in.

Edited by Onstrava, 20 July 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

I've used the Rocketeer as my main for over half a year with 350+ ping and I can tell you a few things about it:

 

1. It's easy to dodge

2. It's hard to hit

3. It's slow as heck

4. It has a long lockon

5. It's just plain weak 90% of the time when you don't get the majority of Rockets on someone

 

BUT, I think this is not a bad idea. And here's why. If the devs created an item that players can deploy to stop Hellfires - which to them seem OP, then I say go for  it. Why? Because new players are likely going to buy it and equip it but which veteran player is? Which veteren player would prefer some flares to their favourite and lovable little orb buddy or their shield, or their many other items? Who would prefer a flare to every other item out there? What the OP is suggesting is not actually a bad idea - it satisfies the newbies and doesn't nerf the Hellfires for the higher tiers where people would prefer less situation items like a Heal Orb.

 

Although I would prefer it if the Hellfires had a buff along with this item - perhaps a bit of a boost in travel speed, I don't see it as all that important overall. But all talk about Hellfires being OP should just stop. Because it's your fault for getting stuck on an open field with nothing to hide behind from the fires from hell and not the weapon's fault.

 

Another point: I would stop calling them "flares" but "decoys". Maybe the item could shoot a small decoy item which attracts metal objects - Hellfires, TOWs, Grenades etc. Something that is less about "nerf the hellfires" and more about "let's make this universal". Obviously, Hellfires would be the easiest missile to be countered by this due to their very loud and alarming warnings but I'm for making a magnetic decoy item. Or, you know, we could make holograms do it.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 21 July 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

As a counter point to all of the excellent points made above by Dawn-of-Ash:

 

The Rocketeer and, to a lesser extent, Bruiser are, to me, mainly supression mechs.  Hellfires may not be effective in direct combat, but can be instrumental in helping a team hold their objective.  Even if only 20% of Hellfires find their target during a whole match, all of those lock-ons create a distraction and force even the best players to dodge and look for cover - to find other ways to get at the objective that take a lot longer than just rushing in.  It seriously slows down the enemy team, allowing more time for your mates to get to and control the area.

 

If an enemy team is having trouble with a pesky Rocketeer that has an area on lock-down (pun intended), they can switch to a mech that has flares and completely negate the effectiveness of Hellfires.  They can then practically ignore them and just walk on in.

 

To me, it's a matter of taking a weapon that is already of limited effectiveness and castrating it.  I get that new players often find Hellfires frustrating to deal with, but they have the same gripes with Scouts, Snipers, Berzerkers, Predators... every mech that a good pilot is running is going to give them trouble.

[The_Silencer]

IIRC, HellFires are IR based, thing which would explain why preds and infils get lock on while cloaking.

 

Not advocating for the OP but,

(at least) 1-use-only (item) flares as countermeasure Vs. one bolley of HFs isn't so terrible idea.

 

P.S. It's also possible that my personal perception on this may not be the most ideal now, given that connectivity and/or graphical lad may be blurring it too much. Once I get my new hardware here I'll be less shivleing on this.. so to speak...

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

use holos as flares just be in momentum away from target whilst deploying so it is closer

[The_Silencer]

use holos as flares just be in momentum away from target whilst deploying so it is closer

Does the holo break a lock on (you after being adquired as target) ?

 

IIRC, I think it does not. Although you can make things more complicate to your opponent if you deploy an holo right before he adquires you by manually forcing him to re-adquire you as target (at least most of the times, AFAIK). Thing which is as neat as valid tactic on the battlefield; IMO..

[crockrocket]

Actually, I think this is a great idea. Why? It has literally no effect on high level gameplay as no one who can dodge a hellfire will run it, AND it provides less skilled players with an option to somewhat mitigate their shortcomings. 

 

Seriously this would be great.

[Meraple]

So when someone would be using these, and his enemy would be a Bruiser for example, the Bruiser would basically not have a Secondary in that fight?

EMP disables both weapons, but atleast you need to aim, time and position correctly so it doesn't hit any friendlies.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 22 July 2015 - 01:46 PM.

[crockrocket]

So when someone would be using these, and his enemy would be a Bruiser for example, the Bruiser would basically not have a Secondary in that fight?

So just like when you normally fight a Bruiser

[Meraple]

So just like when you normally fight a Bruiser

This is obviously aimed (hue) towards less skilled pilots who aren't able to dodge hellfires too successfully.

I didn't get the joke when I first wrote this. :l


I honestly think they may view it as really cheap though.
It's basically a big nope to a single Hellfire volley that takes no effort whatsoever.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 22 July 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[SatelliteJack]

Could we not? Like, at all? This might be the worst thing I've ever seen in the suggestions box. Hellfires are weak enough as it is. The last thing we need is a counter specifically for them. The lock-on time, the rate of travel, the damage, and the firing rate are as much nerfing as they need. Even in lower tiers, there is absolutely no reason for anything like this. You can always dodge or find cover, and either of these will reduce, if not eliminate, the amount of damage you would have taken. And even if you snapped your keyboard in half and couldn't move, your still taking a very light hit. If it kills you, you were probably a dead man walking anyways. And as others have mentioned, there are already items on the game that are more effective this could ever be.

Sorry bub, I give this one the thumbs down.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

There are two types of people (well ok 3)

 

1) Those abusing hellfires because it is one of the few viable ways to counter a skilled scout pilot - and abusing it on open maps.

2) Those being abused by hellfires on open maps like bunker and bazaar (less so wreckage but I suppose in siege it can be abused)

3) Pilots being auto-locked through their cloak (cloak ought to prevent lock acquisition imo)

[Lioot]

The OP seems to be a new poster and perhaps a new player, I don't know. They might not be as skilled as you, but community involvement is as important as increasing the player base or having balance changes.

 

i really think that if flares were made a item it would be a great asset as sometimes you get locked on and just cant doge out of the way of hell fire missiles, therefore if we had single use flares at one point before death we can prevent missiles from hitting you.

please voice your oppinion on this and if you think its a good idea try to make it happen!!

 

While I do die occasionally when I dodge too early or the hellfires are fired after I dodge, this does seem helpful although its effectiveness as a counter-measure doesn't quite meet expectations when comparing it to something like the shield or barricade

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

The OP seems to be a new poster and perhaps a new player, I don't know. They might not be as skilled as you, but community involvement is as important as increasing the player base or having balance changes.

 

While I do die occasionally when I dodge too early or the hellfires are fired after I dodge, this does seem helpful although its effectiveness as a counter-measure doesn't quite meet expectations when comparing it to something like the shield or barricade

dodging too early usualy screws you but (atleast easier when they fire after you dodge) you can do a side boost opposite to where you was movine whilst turning the mech the opposite direction to quickly dodge again, in my oppinion this works better than side dodging rockets anyway since side dodge works if you time it split second accurately, but doing this as a backup or just as a main  you will be manipulating his rockets making them arc to the side to try to intercept you but as it turns one way, thats when you just start casualy boosting in the other way the3y will miss far far off no where close 

 

i even dodge hellfires in my turtle vanthis way just social engineering the missiles predictable flight and turnrate constraints vs my own mobility and turtle van has barely enough mobility to do it

Edited by MechFighter5e3bf9, 23 July 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Sp3ctrr]

OP's idea in a nutshell:

 

 

Make hellfires more useless than they already are.

[Bazookagofer]

OP's idea in a nutshell:

 

 

Make hellfires more useless than they already are.

No need to be so harsh about it.

[The_Silencer]

You know?

 

I'd like to see what a decent survey says on whether man find dodging HellFires so easily or not.

Let's say one with, at least, a 60% participation in here. Although Polls aren't available in the forums still..

 

After that hypothetical Poll concludes in, for isntance, a frame of 7 days of participation, devs could decide if making some few of those HFs per bolley more accurate or not. Get it?

[Sp3ctrr]

No need to be so harsh about it.

 

>harsh

 

You should see some replies on other threads before you call mine "harsh".

[Bazookagofer]

>harsh

 

You should see some replies on other threads before you call mine "harsh".

Subjective

 

You know?

 

I'd like to see what a decent survey says on whether man find dodging HellFires so easily or not.

Let's say one with, at least, a 60% participation in here. Although Polls aren't available in the forums still..

 

After that hypothetical Poll concludes in, for isntance, a frame of 7 days of participation, devs could decide if making some few of those HFs per bolley more accurate or not. Get it?

Hellfires don't need a nerf or a buff. They need a rework so they can be viable in higher tiers and not complete OP-ness in the trench. Ever since I learned about Hawken and played it the hellfire debate has been going on. Over a cycle of buffs and nerfs it has never been in a truly "balanced" spot. I am sure you know this since I believe you have been around longer then me. If lock on too strong we get absurd 180 degree turns and crazy hellfire behavior. If it too weak... we get garbage that can't hit anything in open space even. I vote for no flares but rework hellfires.

[Panzermanathod]

I am against this idea to have an item to be specifically against a single weapon, let alone an anti hell-fire weapon. It's unfair to hellfire users. And, let's be real here, there's plenty of other ways to avoid hellfires. Shields, barriers, dodging, taking cover, and holograms work. Not to mention that Hellfires take a while to lock on normally, and as a weapon built for long distance combat, it doesn't fare well in CQC situtions, where a good chunk of the fighting takes place. Not to mention that there is the chance that not all the missiles may hit.

 

Sure it can spot cloaked mechs. I see nothing wrong with that. Just because it's visibly near-invisibly doesn't mean it shouldn't be seen by any mechanical means.

 

 

No need to be so harsh about it.

 

He wasn't harsh. I've seen harsh replies on this forum. Subjective or not, it wasn't insulting to the OP.

[Bazookagofer]

He wasn't harsh. I've seen harsh replies on this forum. Subjective or not, it wasn't insulting to the OP.

Harsh=/=insult. You can say something harsh which isn't meant as an insult.

 

It kind of like cruelty. You are cruel if you torture one person. Just because somebody else tortured 10 other people at once doesn't make you any less cruel.

[Panzermanathod]

Your analogy isn't at all fitting.

[Bazookagofer]

Your analogy isn't at all fitting.

Yes it is. Just because there are harsher posts on the forum doesn't make a less harsh post not harsh. It is quite simple actually.

[Panzermanathod]

Harsh=/=insult. You can say something harsh which isn't meant as an insult.

 

It kind of like cruelty. You are cruel if you torture one person. Just because somebody else tortured 10 other people at once doesn't make you any less cruel.

Please look over this post. What you said here is different than what you said in your most recent post.  Looking at just this post, as I did, along with the fact you weren't clear earlier about how the magnitude of his harshness was irrelevant (you stated "subjective" and nothing else explaining your stance), no, that analogy didn't make sense to me when I read it, and by itself it still doesn't make sense.

[Bazookagofer]

Please look over this post. What you said here is different than what you said in your most recent post.  Looking at just this post, as I did, along with the fact you weren't clear earlier about how the magnitude of his harshness was irrelevant (you stated "subjective" and nothing else explaining your stance), no, that analogy didn't make sense to me when I read it, and by itself it still doesn't make sense.

No I didn't say anything different. I just didn't use an analogy as to not confuse you. I reread it still makes sense. Maybe your thinking too hard?

[Panzermanathod]

You basically said that "Harsh doesn't equal insulting" is similar to "torture 1 or 10 guys, you're still a torturer." Your analogy doesn't fit. It would fit better if you used your torture analogy with:

 

 Just because there are harsher posts on the forum doesn't make a less harsh post not harsh.

 

But you did not make it clear prior to the analogy that that was what you meant because the only thing you said about it was:

 

Subjective

 

So I think you didn't find it confusing because you knew what you were talking about, but you didn't explain yourself enough in the beginning.

[The_Silencer]

Subjective

 

Hellfires don't need a nerf or a buff. They need a rework so they can be viable in higher tiers and not complete OP-ness in the trench. Ever since I learned about Hawken and played it the hellfire debate has been going on. Over a cycle of buffs and nerfs it has never been in a truly "balanced" spot. I am sure you know this since I believe you have been around longer then me. If lock on too strong we get absurd 180 degree turns and crazy hellfire behavior. If it too weak... we get garbage that can't hit anything in open space even. I vote for no flares but rework hellfires.

Just to clarify,

what I'm inherently suggesting with my posts on HFs here (as we ll as on many other items/weapons of the actual gamein other threads..) is a revision too.

 

But first you've to evaluate real date on what the pros and cons are in each case.

 

Subsequently, turns out that I'd be very interested in a survey to weight how many players think HFs are easy to dodge and how many do not. That would be a good and interesting start, IMO.

 

---- Positively (and not naively) assuming that people would tell the truth on this matter, ofc.

[Panzermanathod]

I don't find Hellfires particularly harder to avoid compared to some other weapons. Easier, in fact, since there's loads more forewarning  than any other weapon (except maybe an Incin trying to keep its barrels spun up)

[The_Silencer]

To hell with HellFires!

 

P.S. Rude HAWKEN poetry; just as 1 line related verse..

[(P:B)Augmentia]

Hellfires are really weak. No joke, rocketeer is played less enough as it is, if there was a specific counter to it's main weapon it would become an extinct race. One of the steps on your journey to become a better player as a whole is to learn to dodge hellfires. If you want to be taught, hop on the Hawken TS and ask anyone if they will teach you. 9/10 they will happily take you aside in a private server and show you the correct way to dodge hellfires. I can also release a video about dodging hellfires if you think that would help.

[6ixxer]

I could use pointers on dodging hellfires. so post away.

 

i don't seem to escape them as much as others. How are others so good at dodging them when i try dodging but just don't seem to do it effectively enough.

 

i know how to dodge them in some situations, but am interested in what to do when dodge on cooldown without proper cover, etc

 

I probably just need to see it from the outside and get more practice.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[HHJFTRU]

i don't seem to escape them as much as others. How are others so good at dodging them when i try dodging but just don't seem to do it effectively enough.

 

 

The answer is in the Book of Armaments 2:21

And Baba-Ji spake, saying " ...  who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

Perhaps you have been killing too many MG-Turells^TM lately.

Edited by HHJFTRU, 09 September 2015 - 03:54 AM.

[JackVandal]

To be honest the biggest reason im against this is because it only effects one secondary, unless it also causes premature detonation on tows within a certain range of the flare, i dont think this would be a good idea.

[U235]

Sounds cool.

[Onstrava]

Remove the lockon, incoming sound for hellfires and I'm sure it would be a valuable idea. Of course it will have to do more than just effect hellfires, it will have to effect tow missiles also. You can't have an item that only messes with one specific type of mech. That is what we call balance.

Edited by Onstrava, 10 September 2015 - 12:00 PM.