59 replies to this topic

[JackVandal]

Remove the lockon, incoming sound for hellfires and I'm sure it would be a valuable idea. Of course it will have to do more than just effect hellfires, it will have to effect tow missiles also. You can't have an item that only messes with one specific type of mech. That is what we call balance.

i can see the TOW commercials now, "Do you suffer from premature detonation? 60% of assaults do"

[Onstrava]

i can see the TOW commercials now, "Do you suffer from premature detonation? 60% of assaults do"

Maybe it's because I got off of work or something but my mind isn't processing the meaning for what this has to do with my quote. But sure man, okay.

[TronX33]

There are two types of people (well ok 3)

 

1) Those abusing hellfires because it is one of the few viable ways to counter a skilled scout pilot - and abusing it on open maps.

2) Those being abused by hellfires on open maps like bunker and bazaar (less so wreckage but I suppose in siege it can be abused)

3) Pilots being auto-locked through their cloak (cloak ought to prevent lock acquisition imo)

 1) not abusing, as you said, countering a scout. Yes, it's easy in an Assault, zerker, or generally and sustain mech. But in a Burst mech? Ok, bye-bye

2)Yeah, that is a problem

3), also agree to this one.

On topic: I agree with what others have said. This will please the noobs, and not affect hellfires in higher skill lobbies

[Panzermanathod]

Having cloaked mechs get hit with the locking isn't a "problem". Just because something is visibly invisible doesn't mean there's no way for anything to track it.

[ATX22]

If hellfire missiles reverted back to pre-nerf, yeah, I could live with flares.

[DieselCat]

There are two types of people (well ok 3)

 

1) Those abusing hellfires because it is one of the few viable ways to counter a skilled scout pilot - and abusing it on open maps.

2) Those being abused by hellfires on open maps like bunker and bazaar (less so wreckage but I suppose in siege it can be abused)

3) Pilots being auto-locked through their cloak (cloak ought to prevent lock acquisition imo)

 

Anything that abuses a Scout or any of their other little buddies,  is fine with me.....

 

*+

[Sylhiri]

If hellfire missiles reverted back to pre-nerf, yeah, I could live with flares.

 

They still sucked back then too.

[nepacaka]

it is a bad idea because it counter only two mech, and only one weapon. why? we have a 17 mech in game, and this item working only on 2. i don't think it is really good.

actually, i say, like always, problem in Seeker!
when you play against 3 rocketeers on LostEco, you die because seeker. not HF. if you play against 3 Bruiser, this not happens. because Bruiser don't have a Seeker...

better think about sabot and slug rifles, because these guns have 0 spread. 0 spread... hitscan with maximal damage on 300 m range, dont have any spread... don't have a falloff damage... and you can't dodge it. never... :P
 

Edited by nepacaka, 11 September 2015 - 01:02 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Seeking weapons are a problem to balance anyway. It takes a lot of attention to get it between useless and op.

[Dnyarri]

I don't think everyone fully thought this idea through.

 

Right now lock ons are difficult to buff in my opinion. They are a very low skill ceiling weapon in a game which promotes high skill ceiling play. By creating counters to it you effectively raise the skill ceiling which gives room to buff the weapons. Right now in high level play they aren't terribly effective and in low level play they can stomp. By buffing other aspects of the weapon but making it counterable you can reduce the stomp effect on low skill players and possibly give it a boost in high level play.

 

Now if the flare idea isn't viable what about a deployable anti missile turret(tries to shoot down incoming missiles, not 100% effective)? This makes the counter counterable by the other team(just destroy it like all others), promotes a bit of skill in proper positioning of it, and doesn't completely cripple a Rockateer trying to kill someone with it(or they are stuck in 1 area).

[Panzermanathod]

And to that I must ask: leaving aside buffing the weapon (which is kinda outside the scope of the OP), how would giving a weapon an additional specific counter (since Hellfires already can be fooled by holograms) give the Hellfires a higher skill ceiling in such a way that it becomes more viable?

 

One thing to keep in mind is that if you are new at a game you don't know about how effective X is in most situations. You don't have to play in high level matches to learn how to properly deal with Hellfires. That is not to say the low level guys should be ignored, just that if there is a bunch of people who are saying that X weapon is not as useful as others then that must be considered as well.

 

Second, as mentioned there are already counters for the weapon. Not only the usual weapon counters (cover, shields, dodging them, which is not as hard to do as other weapons), but also the fact that they aren't great up close and the lockon can work on holograms and turrets as well. Also it is the only weapon which warns the player of an incoming shot.when locked on..

 

I don't agree with anti-missile turrets for the same reasons I don't want flares, it's another weapon specific counter that has no use for anything other than making a specific weapon less useful. It is otherwise useless if there aren't any nearby Bruisers or Rocketeers.

 

Furthermore, why should the solution to an issue like this be to buff the weapon but give it another counter? Seems more counter productive than anything.

[Sylhiri]

I don't think everyone fully thought this idea through.

 

Right now lock ons are difficult to buff in my opinion. They are a very low skill ceiling weapon in a game which promotes high skill ceiling play. By creating counters to it you effectively raise the skill ceiling which gives room to buff the weapons. Right now in high level play they aren't terribly effective and in low level play they can stomp. By buffing other aspects of the weapon but making it counterable you can reduce the stomp effect on low skill players and possibly give it a boost in high level play.

 

So your suggesting that if the flare item actually existed, you can buff hellfires? Let's think about that idea through. You want people to equip an item (that is completely useless outside of hellfires) in slots that are used for items with a general use in order to allow Hellfires to have a passive, always functioning, buff. Seems legit.

 

I'm not sure that Shift+A/D is catagorized as high skill ceiling play. If so then we really do need a better tutorial.

Edited by Sylhiri, 13 September 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[JackVandal]

Maybe it's because I got off of work or something but my mind isn't processing the meaning for what this has to do with my quote. But sure man, okay.

i was getting at if flares also detonated tows that pass near them it wouldn't be stopping just hellfire mechs, not just countering hellfires but also tows and GLs.

[nepacaka]

Actually, from realistic pov, flares can't save from tow and gl. Flares can save from rocket which guided by airplane engine heat.
HF missiles guided by computer. HF guided on concrete target, it not depend from high temperature.
So, flares also have mistake in logic. Because HF working on another guided system.
:P

Also, HF rocket design actually look like a cluster bomb, it is not a rocket at all :D

Edited by nepacaka, 13 September 2015 - 08:58 PM.

[Panzermanathod]

Yeah, Nepa is right. Flares shouldn't, by any means, effect non guided weapons by causing early detonation. The concept of flares in this context is to distracted guided weaponry, generally by means of simulating high heat.

 

And since the HF doesn't actually target by heat, but a specific target, then flares shouldn't technically work. So the best thing to do is to interrupt the lockon in some way. And in that case the HF doesn't *need* an additional counter item. You have walls, shields, meat-metal shields, turrets, and Holograms to defend against them.

[The_Silencer]

Yeah, Nepa is right. Flares shouldn't, by any means, effect non guided weapons by causing early detonation. The concept of flares in this context is to distracted guided weaponry, generally by means of simulating high heat.

 

And since the HF doesn't actually target by heat, but a specific target, then flares shouldn't technically work. So the best thing to do is to interrupt the lockon in some way. And in that case the HF doesn't *need* an additional counter item. You have walls, shields, meat-metal shields, turrets, and Holograms to defend against them.

In my humble opinion, HFs should be the same way they actually are right now.

 

Flares as one new balanced item might be pretty interesting as well as be a good value and addition to the meta game. If such an item servers to misguide a limited number of HF missiles per salvo then something like this would not look so bad to me.

 

Obviously, this would be an option working better on certain maps and not so well on other scenearios. It's possible and decently implemented in the game.

 

P.S. Not everyone is mastering how to dodge HFs during a match nor piloting A class meches all time. Right?.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[HugeGuts]

Hellfires were the best in closed beta. They were niche long-range-only assault weapons that worked their specialization so well, users could only blame themselves for not being effective with them. Funny thing is, they worked because they were broken and buggy. Here's how they worked:

 

Short range - You're a free kill. Initial missile spread is so large and lock-on mid-flight correction is so slow, most missiles crash into the terrain before even getting close to the enemy.

Medium range - Some missiles lock on. Other missiles bug out and fly into space. Supplemental damage at best.

Long range - All missiles fly straight and true. Huge damage. 50% of a B's max health huge. Not even Sharpshooters could win a long-range damage race against Hellfires.

 

Hellfires today seem like they're trying to fit an all-around role. Which I do not think will ever work, given the too-powerful mechanic of auto-aim.

Edited by HugeGuts, 15 October 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[BIsmuthZornisse]

What would probably help dodging the hellfires would be a sound for the targeted mech to indicate the timeframe in which they can be dodged. Would especially help when the missiles arent in the targets field of view.

[StubbornPuppet]

Yeah, just make the beeping get faster or higher pitched as they get closer.  That would really alleviate most concerns.

 

But the HF's still should get tweaked a little so they track just a tad better.

[JackVandal]

Well, the tracking is not so bad atm, except when some missiles just fail to track or just wander off, with the already pitiful damage those dont help, i think a beeping speed increase isn't so bad, though i think the real place they need help is with the dumb-fire, or to return to the older long range specialty, as right now, they are worthless in cqc, decent at mid, and outclassed at long range.