150 replies to this topic

[DreamedArtist]

Incinerator stomp is like kryptonite to scouts.

haha yes! all forgot about that one move with insta kill power :)

[crockrocket]

If I can effectively play scout in a match, that's often an indicator that the average mmr of the server is lower than mine. Scout is hard as fuzzy bunny to play because of how important it is to A. not miss and B. position correctly. 

I think that is the root problem with scout. If you're able to do those things well enough to play scout and have your mmr go up, you'll either keep going up to the point where scout is balanced OR hit another skill ceiling where you need to improve aim and positioning again. And that's assume matches around your mmr. With matches below your mmr, you end up being OP in a scout.

To summarize, my theory is that because of the scout's weapon loudout and low hp, it is one of the best skill indicators in the game; this is integral to it being balanced at high tiers (or exactly at your current mmr) and OP elsewhere.

[goldbuddah]

The mech's are far from balanced and on par with one another, and some are op. Ignore the "I'm a veteran" rambles you hear, these are merely echoes going round spoken by people who have already accredited themselves as "experienced" who have heard it somewhere else, its getting old tbh.

 

I like to use the reaper, only mech I want to use but it has its floors, its made of recycled paper. It doesn't matter how much you dodge and boost about, if someone is firing on you and they're not a complete imbecile, chances are they'll have you down in a matter of 2 seconds flat. It needs to be tougher, or have a harder hit to it to make up for its ridiculous health amount. But this is where the balance system comes in and some of what the people here have said, you join a server...its mixed. You got seasoned players mixed with people who are still applying their binds. A scenario comes along where you end up with a scout whizzing about like flash gordon and a new player in the microwave, it doesnt end well for the microwave. Its not fun, we've all been there. I think this is where the hate stems from but it most definitely is a combination of op mechs and experienced players. Not just one or the other as some are trying to say it is. Once they implement a working balance system and the mechs have been tuned to be more balanced, I think it will be a fairer game. As of now, its kinda all over the place.

[Hyginos]

Scout can be frustrating to play against because its high walk speed and huge radar range allow a player who is more skilled than most of the server to be omni-present.

[crockrocket]

Took a shower, gathered my thoughts a bit more. Basically, scout forces you to use skills that maybe you know how to use, but don't on other mechs because you don't have to in order to be semi-effective. Even in a 1900 mmr lobby, I can yolo dive in a zerker and be effective enough to stay at the same mmr, or even slightly increase it. That's because I have a sustained weapon, a damage steroid, and slightly more health as crutches. If I want to be at all effective with a scout, I have to use good positioning and land a higher percentage of my shots; this also forces me to slow down and keep my head in the game. If I manage to pull these things off, I'm way more effective than I would be in pretty much any other mech.

 

So any "OP-ness" of the scout is not due to the mech itself, it is (at lower tiers) because it forces you to play well. This concept of the scout being OP breaks down at higher levels - because at the point people play well on any mech. Coincidentally, this is why I think that scout is bar none the best mech in the game to learn how to play hawken with. If only I'd realized that sooner...

[outfctrl]

My Son loves the scout when we play together, but he is always shouting to me over voice......Heal me Dad...Heal me

I have to play a Technician when he plays a scout

He is so fast, I can't keep track of him to keep him alive...LOL

 

He racks up some serious kills with that mech

[FRX23]

People usualy hate what they can't handle and be smashed by.

Scout is the best efficient mech i think

The better player, the better scout is.
 

 

Only problem is if you go against a Scout with a G2 Assault. I don't know how people do that with two damage-over-time weapons.

 

G2A takes advantage of midranged fights,

IF you can keeping Scout in LOF while backwarding and dodging, you can deal it enough damage to make it give up and run away.

But it's not applicable to all situations.
 

Edited by FRX23, 24 March 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[opicr0n]

I like to use the reaper, only mech I want to use but it has its floors, its made of recycled paper. It doesn't matter how much you dodge and boost about, if someone is firing on you and they're not a complete imbecile, chances are they'll have you down in a matter of 2 seconds flat. It needs to be tougher, or have a harder hit to it to make up for its ridiculous health amount.

I do not agree, I consider myself, and I hope others too, to be an pretty good reaper pilot.

 

One should try to play in a way reaper shines. Try to avoid too many cqc's and help drain the life of enemy team from distance, behind own team.

 

Although cqc the reaper can deal out some sick damage too ^^.

Edited by opicr0n, 24 March 2015 - 09:44 AM.

[LRod]

I think a great pilot in THEIR favorite mech can be amazing. It's just that many great pilots LOVE their scout. It is not an easy mech to master, but in the hands of a capable vet, it is a wrecking machine! I envy those pilots, I fear those pilots, I loathe those pilots...I aspire to be one of those respected pilots. Never mind the sissy whiners, the scout is a vital element to the game, and helps keep other mechs (zerkers) in check.

[_incitatus]

Scout gets hated on because it can really shine in the right situations.  I think most of the hate comes from newer players who haven't learned to wait to shoot until AFTER they dodge or who haven't had the exposure to be able to predict player movement well enough to aim where they are going to be.

 

BUT, it can be extremely weak under the right (or wrong) circumstances.  They can be killed with 3 shots, they get melted so fast when focused and snipers eat them for breakfast.  Engaging a C class is a challenge because you have to kill them before their backup arrives.  When an Orb Lord Assault catches a Scout in the open, forget about it.

[talon70]

I will sometimes say snipers and spies have no soul, but i really don't mean it :)

 

Scoots are all hyperactive like they drank way to many red bulls.

[StubbornPuppet]

I don't recall the hate for the scout really being a thing until after the increases in mech speed, the decrease in dodge cool-down, and the buff to the air compressor.  It's that combination of hyperactive speed, constant twitching and the ability to hop and dodge over players heads combined with weapons that destroy at close range that have made it a focus of rage.

 

I don't hate it.  I also can't play it very well.  But I do prefer the game a bit more before the aforementioned changes.

[Sylhiri]

Get used to it. On the US side it is always like that.

EU however is open, accepting and got some amazing accents.

 

Funny thing is that very few people started out like that, generally they were very fun and friendly people. After a certain amount of time a lot of them turned into massive fuzzy bunny's though.

 

I don't recall the hate for the scout really being a thing until after the increases in mech speed, the decrease in dodge cool-down, and the buff to the air compressor.

 

To my knowledge the Scout has always been hated on. I think it's the fuel tank head, makes you want to kick it.

[OmegaNull]

Funny thing is that very few people started out like that, generally they were very fun and friendly people. After a certain amount of time a lot of them turned into massive fuzzy bunny's though.

 

 

To my knowledge the Scout has always been hated on. I think it's the fuel tank head, makes you want to kick it.

Reminds me off a fly. A very deadly fly with explosions and spits fireballs of lead with continuous farts of fire. 

[Crminimal]

I love to hate the Scout, I will never play one out of shere principle, unless there is a purchaseable pink tutu for it in the future.
My aim is generally pretty shitty and I am easily startled, so they give me a hard time when piloted correctly. 
It's like target practise, but everytime you miss you get kicked in the nuts. That and people hold grudges, especially for those damn zippety swoop dancing bastards.

[Merl61]

I love to hate the Scout, I will never play one out of shere principle, unless there is a purchaseable pink tutu for it in the future.
My aim is generally pretty shitty and I am easily startled, so they give me a hard time when piloted correctly. 
It's like target practise, but everytime you miss you get kicked in the nuts. That and people hold grudges, especially for those damn zippety swoop dancing bastards.

At least you admit that you're bad at aiming and that's why playing scouts is hard for you. Most people are too proud. It's refreshing.

[OmegaNull]

The only thing I can so far:

 

I am Omega. 

[Onstrava]

I always hated the scout, ever since alpha, so my opinion on it doesn't matter much. Then again the only reason a scout would ever annoy me is if my ping goes 100+ since I use the SS and G2 Raider, two slow firing mechs with high ping, good luck.

[EM1O]

much as i luv Scout, Infil is the answer to annoying people trying to be fast and annoying. i got accused of "Targetting", because I would pluck these 2 scouts off by timing my grenade toss to that lovely little 1 second pause at the end of the dodge (air or otherwise). Really? an aimbot that works with 'nades?

:D

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Reminds me off a fly. A very deadly fly with explosions and spits fireballs of lead with continuous farts of fire. 

 

Frog, especially my Scout.

 

I am that Scout you hate if I'm auto-matched into a 1900 MMR server (1-star for me is about 2050 MMR these days).  This auto-matching happens often, so I am possibly That Scout you hate.
 

I avoid focused fire.  I play a very fast, but position-oriented game.  I flank.  I pick my moments (they come very quickly).  If you are unwise enough to be out of position, I will make you ded.  And then I will move across the map to where someone ELSE will be out of position.  I can force you to make mistakes, even 4v1, where I blitz through (and I do this with Raider, too).  If two deathballs collide, I will clean up, and quickly.  I can do this at much higher server MMRs than many players.  As a result, I top the leaderboard - it's all about the multikills.

 

I can do this with Vanguard, Raider, Assault/CR-T, Berzerker, and occasionally, Infil, and I can do it pretty reliably. There are those who can do the things in the preceding paragraph better than me in their chosen mechs; they are few. 

 

I will tell the Scout Haters that it is NOT the mech, it's the pilot.  Don't hate me for my beautiful, balanced, deadly frog-like Scout. 

 

Hate me for my skills, hard-won over so much game time.

[WildeBeeezt]

I do not agree, I consider myself, and I hope others too, to be an pretty good reaper pilot.

 

One should try to play in a way reaper shines. Try to avoid too many cqc's and help drain the life of enemy team from distance, behind own team.

 

Although cqc the reaper can deal out some sick damage too ^^.

 

Agreed. All I play is the reaper.  The reaper is mid to long range support. Your job is to play gorilla warfare and to not to contribute to the other teams score: Hit hard and move while playing the perimeter. You more so gauge a reaper on assists as opposed to kills though I have been able to rack up some good kill numbers and generally (since I pulled my head out of my ass) have one of the highest if not the highest K/D ratio in my matches. The machine is not for everyone but can easily turn a match when utilized properly. biggest thing is you don't take enemies head on unless the conditions are right. its a recipe for disaster otherwise. 

[driedjello]

So at my tier, 2000 to 2200 mmr, scouts are cocky.  I have a supremely difficult time with scouts piloted by very high tier pilots but at my level, they are one of the easiest mechs to destroy.  Between their over confidence and predictability, I can ususally have a TOW waiting for them at the end of their side dodge. 

[LaurenEmily]

So at my tier, 2000 to 2200 mmr, scouts are cocky.  I have a supremely difficult time with scouts piloted by very high tier pilots but at my level, they are one of the easiest mechs to destroy.  Between their over confidence and predictability, I can ususally have a TOW waiting for them at the end of their side dodge. 

It's true that scout pilots seem to be more over confident than others, skilled scout pilots at least. Focusing on them can really throw them off their game though and they start making more mistakes. I like stalking them from behind when they think they are the ones being sneaky.

[Leonhardt]

I like stalking them

 

[phed]

Scouts get so much hate, but it's just cause they require a play style that's flashy, in your face, and demoralizing when pulled off correctly.


Since the last balance pass in favor of sustained damage, scouts have lost their place amongst the strongest mechs, and even among the burst classes have fallen in rank.

As a Scout pilot with 6 in his garage, my personal experience is that I'm more effective in a crt or assault now than in a Scout, but shotguns and high speed are addictive.

The predator is lame also, and all the pilots that play them get calloused nipples that chafe when they walk.

[bluebaron201]

I hate scouts. I understand why I hate scouts as well.

 

1. The general boosting forward and side dodge dance that they perform blurs their motions together into a homogeneous slurry that I can not interpret. I can not extract the necessary information of when their dodge is on cool down to try to land a tow not that it matters as their regular boosts(or is that a side dodge?) are also incredibly fast. Between the exhaust/smoke animation and the dirt being kicked up I can not effectively filter out and distinguish between the moves. Also watching them quickly perform a 180 without the shift+s never fails to amaze me. Amaze not mystify.

2. Time to kill is so low that scouts can easily alpha strike you. which leads me to...

 

3. I cannot counter-play an engaged scout in a 1v1 with any mech because of reasons 1+2. My time to respond to the damage I have taken and determine their current location and their intended direction of movement takes continuous information gathering not achievable in 1.5 to 0.75 second.

 

4. My best bet is to prevent the battle by forcing my team to death-ball up and to pick the brawler/vanguard. This limits my play style and makes the game less interesting/enjoyable for me.

 

5. Scout benefits from disorganized teams that end up as 6 isolated players. This happens when that initial spawn fight results in your team being wiped and respawning each player everywhere on the map except near one another. Another very real possibility is your team just does not value sticking together due to game mode or personal preference. The team usually can not reform the death ball and scouts keep boosting to their next victim to prevent the ball from forming again. I do this with my assault, just not as effectively as a scout.

 

Scouts are not overpowered. I however do not enjoy going against a scout as it limits my play. This is more a fault of being unable to interpret the information in front of me. This is also the same reason why I hate mechs with skins that look like a different mech. I can not focus on the weapons of the mech nor interpret the symbol above their head. Fortunately for me, I can make a few flash cards and memorize the symbols for each mech however I cannot change the information that I can perceive quickly such as the physical weapons on the mech or determine the difference between the side-dodge and boost forward for the scout in particular.

 

TL DR; Problem exists between keyboard and chair.

~bluebaron201

Edited by bluebaron201, 27 March 2015 - 07:38 AM.

[deidarall]

There is a bit of history here, the scout used to be meta, so a lot of top players picked it up, as well as a lot of players wishing to stay competitive during the 12/12/12 build days when heat and burst ruled. It became a symbol of bad balance and stomping cause everyone and there grandma had a scout and was using the scout with HEAT and derping around killing people in DM or TDM. It quite simply is the grand daddy scum bag mech, simply due to the history. 

 

That is part of the reason it is so wide spread thru out the "old guard" who truly play there scout cause they know how to play it, cause well they always have. Hell even I did, and I am a heavy mech driver. 

 

Basically historically scouts are scum bags and will always be the top scum mech. Just how it is. 

 

 

L is for love, L is for Life, L if for I like this song listen to it :P

Edited by deidarall, 27 March 2015 - 07:49 AM.

[Superkamikazee]

I have no clear suggestions, otherwise I would have proposed some.

 

The opportunity presented by having Hawken in the hands of new owners offers many possibilities for improvement, whether it be rebalancing mechs or gameplay itself.

 

At the moment all we can hope for is that Reloaded takes a hard and objective view on how the current game has failed to attract and retain newcomers and try different ways to resolve such failings. I doubt they will get there without issues as people don't like their toys being messed with.

 

All of this. I thought that Hawken being given this second chance at life that more people would share this sentiment. But it's business as usual, "Hawken is fine you filthy casuals". Ladies and gentlemen Hawken is not fine, if it's fine there's an implication that it was fine when ADH and Meteor went under. That simply cannot be true.

 

Let's take all these "complaints" and listen a bit in an effort to come up with some reasonable solutions. 

[LaurenEmily]

The predator is lame also, and all the pilots that play them get calloused nipples that chafe when they walk.

I have about 80 hours on the predator and never noticed anything about me changing physically while playing it. Am i doing it wrong ?

I also get why some might consider it lame but it really is a tough thing to pilot and you lose 1v1 against anything unless you manage to surprise them first. 

[PoopSlinger]

If you play G2Raider, scouts have no option other than run away.  Unless you have 16-20 ping.  If you have 16 ping nobody will ever hit you.  It is damn near impossible to plant t-32 and mirv on somebody with that ping (cluster).  You have to switch to grenade lob mode and hope you're leading enough for the whole t-32 to land.

[LaurenEmily]

If you play G2Raider, scouts have no option other than run away.  Unless you have 16-20 ping.  If you have 16 ping nobody will ever hit you.  It is damn near impossible to plant t-32 and mirv on somebody with that ping (cluster).  You have to switch to grenade lob mode and hope you're leading enough for the whole t-32 to land.

 So are you saying that a person with very low ping is actually harder to hit ? 

I have never noticed other player's ping affecting how i land my shots. Only my own, as long as it's around 60-80 i can do it most of the time.

[Avashin]

Scouts shall never be pursued but lured.

[Leonhardt]

 So are you saying that a person with very low ping is actually harder to hit ? 

I have never noticed other player's ping affecting how i land my shots. Only my own, as long as it's around 60-80 i can do it most of the time.

 

If your ping is below 120 it is very possible to hit anyone. With ping that is 80 and below you will have absolutely no lead or excuse. People pay too much attention to ping sometimes.

[Nept]

Leon, get your ass on TS.

[SmaCkexe]

I don't get it. It is not uncommon to hear stuff like 'scout is op'or 'scouts are scumbags', Sure that thing is fast as heck and majors in running away with 3 or less health left but all it takes is one mistake or a good hit and the scout pilot is gone. Someone care to share what am i missing here because i don't hate them ?

The most skilled players have always used the lighter Mechs. Berserker used to be referred to as the Lawn Mower before they nerfed the Vulcan into oblivion.  The Infiltrator was at one time known as the Dirty Mech because its grenade launcher was so strong it would take 3/4 your health with one direct hit.  The scout has been a constant thru it all.  Never really nerfed and never really buffed.  It plays nearly the same as it has since Alpha.  It has high damage output with low defense and crazy speed.  This make it ideal for skilled players who can manipulate all of its abilities to their finest.   People who call it OP simply lack the skill to use it or play against it.  

[DieselCat]

Just the casuals complaining. No legitimate player thinks scout is op.

 

Really ? I did not know this. 

 

*+

[Hustler01]

 

I avoid focused fire.  I play a very fast, but position-oriented game.  I flank.  I pick my moments (they come very quickly).  If you are unwise enough to be out of position, I will make you ded.  And then I will move across the map to where someone ELSE will be out of position.  I can force you to make mistakes, even 4v1, where I blitz through (and I do this with Raider, too).  If two deathballs collide, I will clean up, and quickly.  I can do this at much higher server MMRs than many players.  As a result, I top the leaderboard - it's all about the multikills.

 

 

 

This guy gets it.

 

2300 MMR Scout driver here, the only reason people have a perception of Scout being OP at the lower levels is because they don't know how to play the game yet. It's dominance drops sharply as skills and team co-ordination increases.

 

A lot of this is from players learning to move, aim, and fight with a degree of skill instead of W+M1. The issue isn't with the Scout, it's that the game itself does not teach or prepare a player adequetely for Hawken combat.  

 

I had the pleasure of watching the tutorial sitting next to a brand new player I was introducing to the game earlier this week. The most glaring thing I saw was the game never teaches you that you can RMB to midair a TOW instead of hitting MMB. It also doesn't really emphasize just how important movement is. You get taught the bare basics. Walking, jumping/hovering, and how you can dodge to avoid fire.

 

Chaining boost+dodge, bunny boosting, dodging to cancel weapon raise, and similar aren't touched on and most average players have no idea they even exist .. and that's the real problem.

 

The game doesn't teach new players the tools they need to survive.

[Leonhardt]

Leon, get your ass on TS.

I would but I am at work. Gimme a few hours.

[KilleR_OrigiNs]

Redacted.

Edited by KilleR_OrigiNs, 30 April 2015 - 09:48 PM.

[Hustler01]

The Scout just so happens to be one of the hardest to keep a bead on, and when you first go against a really good scout, you aren't ready. You can't be. You're used to slow moving Assaults and a few Brawlers and the like here and there, with scouts who stand in the front of a battle without much movement.

Then someone who knows what their doing drops into the server you're in, and suddenly the entire world has exploded, and you're on fire, they're on fire, the snow is on fire, and everything is on fire.
 

 

This, again, boils down to the game not teaching players how to play.