150 replies to this topic

[Nept]

Are you for real ?.....You're saying the objective of these of these posts, that you don't agree with, are to drag the game down to a player's skill level lower than your's ?

 

I just have to shake my head, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. 

 

Then you're not particularly well-versed in psychology.  I am, so I'll point you toward this thread. 

 

In particular,

 

There's also the fact that people often want to blame everything but themselves when it comes to a loss.  It's much easier to argue that this or that is broken than it is to admit that your skills still have a ways to go.

 

One of the biases behind this type of behaviour is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect:

 

 

The Dunning�Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.

 

When someone posts something along the lines of, "Sorry the scout is just too fast . . . In the hands of anyone that knows how to dodge the Scout is virtually un-hittable," they're overestimating their ability and assuming that everyone has similar difficulties.  Surely if they're having trouble, then everyone must be having trouble, right?  No.  It's simply an ability overestimation combined with an unwillingness to face the possibility that their skills aren't up to snuff.  The truth is that there are many players who hit scouts with ease, and if you were to "balance" the game such that lower-tier players had an easier time striking the scout, you would utterly destroy its viability at mid- to high-tiers of play.

 

Of course, there's another component of the Dunning-Kruger effect that bears mentioning:

 

Conversely, highly skilled individuals tend to underestimate their relative competence, erroneously assuming that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others

 

I don't think anyone here's making the assumption that striking scouts will be "easy" for lower-skilled players.  But we are stating that lower-tier players should have to improve - as did we all - before suggesting that this or that be made easier on themselves.

 

*Edit* I should mention that I've absolutely no issue with lower-skilled players posting.  That was never my position.  I do, however, take issue with lower-skilled players pretending that everyone encounters the same difficulties they do (which would indicate an imbalanced mech) or that their lack of skill isn't responsible for their difficulties.

Edited by Nept, 03 April 2015 - 01:12 AM.

[Rei]

I see people complaining about scouts being able to take out entire teams... Scout dies so quickly when you actually aim at it that it shouldn't have the time to do that. I see people trying that crap all the time in a game and one shot from SS is enough to severely cripple them to where approaching ANYTHING is dangerous and/or fatal. It's definitely a learn to play thing going on because of people complaining they just win because they don't get hit. At higher levels, scouts get blown up all the time. Hell, they're high on my priority list to hit because of how low their HP is. If I keep them out of the fray with low HP longer, or even kill it, my team and fight their team easier. The reason it's so squirrely is because that's it's only survivability which is drastically reduced when people actually learn how to aim. Instead, people complain they can't hit it and want it's one method of questionable survivability nerfed.

Sorry to disagree with you there, but it's definitely a Learn2Play moment when people want scout to be nerfed when there are much much much worse problems.

 

If anything, scout needs a buff lol

[LarryLaffer]

I would like to encourage all the players who say that Scout (or any other mech) is overpowered, deals too much damage, is too fast and so on (or completely opposite things) to play on it at least until maximum rank. Because only after that they can make a constructive opinion about it.

 

Nept said a right thing, the aim is the king in any kind of shooters. The aim and the appropriate distance. Scout can be destroyed with two well-placed TOWs and one stroke with Assault Rifle. Just don't let Scout player to dictate his/her conditions.

[Anichkov3]

 

 Scout can be destroyed with two well-placed TOWs and one stroke with Assault Rifle. 

The game now all mechs armed with TOW and assault rifle?

Scout seems out of place. Only problem when a large difference in ping difficult to properly take aim to get.

And let's raise all US players to 100ms ping specifically on the server to balance the chances of winning? 

[LarryLaffer]

The game now all mechs armed with TOW and assault rifle?

Scout seems out of place. Only problem when a large difference in ping difficult to properly take aim to get.

And let's raise all US players to 100ms ping specifically on the server to balance the chances of winning? 

Don't be picky about examples, my dear Rocketeer friend. I've just used an example of the most common weapons that all new players have access to. Especially for you I can make another example; you can destroy Scout with 5 seeker misslies and finish it with Hellfires. Are you happy now?

 

But you are right about the ping problem. With increased mobility upper bound of comfortable ping decreased to approx. 80 ms. Otherwise there are micro lags and stuttering that make aiming less comfortable especially in CQB.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 03 April 2015 - 01:46 AM.

[zupsero]

If anything, scout needs a buff lol

i am quite new. and this was my first impression of the scout tbh

now i realize the movespeed and burstpotential. But is a zerker so much slower? He could compensate with airspeed and press f to get an immense burst potential. DMG wise i dont think the Raider or G2 Raider are far behind (aside from reaload times, im talking about burst) the scout plus they have more health and can press f to escape anytime. i never played any c-class yet so i cant talk about their dmg or what not. But i dont see the op dmg of the scout to be honest. even tho if u hit everything.  And like i said i cant hit a skilled scout nor can i hit skilled zerkers.


Scouts taking out entire teams are obviously caused by huge skillgap

[vonbach]

Scouts taking out entire teams are obviously caused by huge skillgap

No its not. I had a guy teach a fresh scout player how to outfit his mech and dodge.

He admitted it to me in the forums once. The newbie Scout player proceeded to

single-handedly dominate the entire team to the point they all simply gave up and

waited out the time. Its an op mech it always has been. Its also the goto try hard

pubstomping mech.

[BaronSaturday]

I hate scouts, but I fly a Tech. The Scoot feels purpose built to kill us. Come to think of it, I've never heard an experienced Scoot pilot go, "man, techs are lame. Get rid. Gloglor Tech OpOp broken!" They just treat us like a champaigne glass. Easy as fuzzy bunny to break.

[vonbach]

The tech is supposed to easy to break honestly. But honestly the Scout is built to kill pretty much everything.

Except maybe an incinerator. 

[comic_sans]

No its not. I had a guy teach a fresh scout player how to outfit his mech and dodge.

He admitted it to me in the forums once. The newbie Scout player proceeded to

single-handedly dominate the entire team to the point they all simply gave up and

waited out the time. Its an op mech it always has been. Its also the goto try hard

pubstomping mech.

 

I feel like you are completely ignoring any advice or differing/more experienced opinions posted in this thread, and there's a lot of quality examples of both here.  Your call; a bar-conversation-quality anecdote doesn't quite outweigh the comprehensive walls of text from some of the best players that have posted here.

Edited by comic_sans, 03 April 2015 - 04:12 AM.

[vonbach]

I've heard the L2P routine before it didn't wash then either.

[PoopSlinger]

If you play G2Raider, scouts have no option other than run away. 

 Why are people talking about this still?  I solved it pages ago.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

Re:G2raider...

Truth. I can kill them only when the pilot is already engaged. Otherwise its poke and jab. The G2R pilot can get his shots in.

[LarryLaffer]

@vonbach: Please answer me honestly, have you ever played on Scout by yourself? If you played then what is your K/D ratio on it?

 

Because, you know, all this rant about Scout reminds me about low-mmr solo-que matches in Dota 2, where people are crying "ZOMG Riki is so OP, Icefrog nerf this plz". But they suck hard when they try to play Riki themselves, and Riki was (don't know about its current state after rework) one of the most non-picked heroes at pro-scene, because it can be countered relatively easy.

 

Scout is somewhat similar to Riki, it's one of the best mechs in 1vs1, perfect killer of lonewolves. But when competent Scout player is facing against competent team with good teamwork and awareness, the chances to be at the top of scoreboard are lowered significantly.

Edited by LarryLaffer, 03 April 2015 - 05:32 AM.

[StubbornPuppet]

I have a unique problem with online multiplayer games that illustrates itself most clearly against fast moving players (like those using the Scout in Hawken):

 

I have a very fast connection through my ISP.  What I have always noticed, whether on PSN, XBL or PC, is that the higher a players ping is (usually those with very slow internet connections), the harder it is for me to kill them.  Without getting into all of the technical terminology and discussion, I am aiming right at them and my screen is showing that I should be hitting them - while it also looks like they are not aiming at me or hitting me... yet I don't see their health bar going down when I should be hitting them and mine goes down even though it looks like they're shooting somewhere else.

 

There are a few games in which this has worked exactly the opposite - and players with slow connections claim they cannot touch me at all.

 

What has always ended up being the difference?  Whether developers chose to give the benefit of the doubt in synchronization of hit detection to the slower ping or the faster ping.  Most games choose to give the benefit of the doubt to the slower ping when it comes to hit detection.  In those games, I cannot land most hits on players with a slow connection, especially if they are moving fast.

 

Since the Scout is the fastest mech in Hawken, I have tons of trouble landing hits on them when a high ping player is running them.  When a low ping player comes along in one, it seems just fine... they may still out maneuver me, but it seems legit.  The effect is much less noticable on B and especially C-class mechs.

 

I think this may very likely play a big part in why so many people say they cannot land hits on the Scout. 

[petracles]

My 2 cents:

 

2 slugs and 2 sabots on a Reaper will kill a Scout (with a 100% for you!). No way does it need an HP nerf.

 

Scouts are a mech absolutely designed to be a damage output, no question. It is a hit-hard and GTFO mech, I mean, consider it's ability. To drop it's main purpose in a team-based arena shooter (to BE a glass cannon) it neutering the poor fella'. No way does it need a DAM nerf.

 

I see how it appears as elitism with calling out L2P, but Hawken has an incredibly unique movement style, so yes, there's some L2P here to consider. There's also nothing wrong with a low-mmr pilot coming in and posting his/her thoughts. We all have rights here!

 

All in all, the Scout was never going to be a popular mech. It's the bitchy, quick, Flak/TOW-and-run, pain in the ass mech that no one will ever respect due to its intrinsic value to the team in Hawken. It's a hit-and-run machine! Clearly, in TDM, that's something that's frustrating to die against. But to say it's OP for being good at what it's designed for is a bit silly. If it was OP, we'd see much more of the little bastard in high AND low mmr play.

 

Also, we still saying walls are OP?  They are, in some places, mean mo-fuggas to get around...

 

EDIT: thanks N

Edited by petracles, 03 April 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[Nept]

I can't say that I've experienced that effect in Hawken, StubbornPuppet, and I play with anywhere from 100-130 ping in competition.  Only thing that I've experienced in this game is a bit of warping once players exceed ~200 ping.  That being said, I think the best evidence that someone could provide re: ping problems would be a twitch recording.

 

*Edit* I should mention that there was a massive hit registration issue during earlier iterations of Hawken, but that was fixed when the developers increased server tickrate.

Edited by Nept, 03 April 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[BaronSaturday]

Our team runs a Scout, Raider, and Tech. We did this on purpose. It's called front loading and it works well for many things. The raider is there to push the enemy, the Scoot is there to cause confusion and the Tech is there to keep them bothpushing. This is effective for controlling small areas. However it is a fragile build that takes practice and relies heavily on the pilots capacity for situational awareness, teamwork, and map knowledge. There have been a few times that we have been rekt by an infiltrator we didn't see, a reaper that was in the right place, or one of us misstepped into a fully heated incin that popped the scoot or the tech like a zit. The scout has many strengths. It has just as many weaknesses.

[m0bieduck]

Scout was really op in the old days, like pre steam patch, I remember me and hestoned playing in the same team as scouts, we came back from like 10-35 in tdm by just moving so quickly, and killing everything. Those were the old days, where the scout had more HP to move around, more mistakes could be made and made up for, and it was much faster. Burst was no doubt king at that time too, and the flak cannon was better too

[comic_sans]

Scout was really op in the old days, like pre steam patch, I remember me and hestoned playing in the same team as scouts, we came back from like 10-35 in tdm by just moving so quickly, and killing everything. Those were the old days, where the scout had more HP to move around, more mistakes could be made and made up for, and it was much faster. Burst was no doubt king at that time too, and the flak cannon was better too

 

Man, I miss when the scout actually was op.  Those were good times to be a yolodiver.

[KillerMariosCY]

Piloting the scout and generally light mechs is totally different than piloting medium and heavy mechs.

You have to master the movement(ground & air) which is a difficult thing to do considering you have to simultaneously fire at the enemy and avoid enemy fire. 

Light mechs have low health thus they are depended on their speed and agility. 

Many people get frustrated by light mechs because are fast but without the speed and agility they would be useless.

[m0bieduck]

Man, I miss when the scout actually was op. Those were good times to be a yolodiver.

Remember when I thought you were really good at SS but I mistook you for Jeff :)

[moosa17]

This, again, boils down to the game not teaching players how to play.

No online game can teach a player how to play well against experienced players. The key is experience, in every case. It's the same with anything you could call competitive. Teaching someone how to do it does not make them good at it. That's what makes competition possible. A good game design means the higher skilled player wins. 

[Epsilon_Knight]

Get this: i paid real money to unlock that horrible thing because someone told me it would be worth it.

 

Oh man, me too

 

I was taken in by Merl's piloting of it, walking around, melting face, and to quote Merl, "What was I saying before I just brutally stepped on that Berserker's ~~fuzzy bunny~~?"

 

(Some liberties taken in quote)

 

That mech moves half the speed of smell and its secondary weapon does exactly the same damage as thin raider, AND its ability lasts a whopping 7 seconds or so which is just in enough in practice to get you around one corner.  Flank with 7/8ths of your team or die.

 

ON TOPIC

 

I love scouts!  I love how they melt under my sustain peasant guns.  Also skrub is a fuzzy bunny word?

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 03 April 2015 - 05:01 PM.

[Jerv]

Sorry the scout is just too fast and does too much damage. In the hands of anyone that knows how to dodge the

Scout is virtually un-hittable. You can see them dominating entire servers. This needs to stop.

 

I play with a fairly high ping and have some prtty hefty nerve damage that effectively adds another 200ms to it, yet I can hit Scouts fairly easily with hitscan weapons, and you really don't need a direct hit with AOE like TOW or SAARE.

 

One thing I have yet to see you mention is what happens to a Scout that you do hit. Most mechs lose a little HP but Scouts tend to get rekt fast. THey really can't take much.

[TangledMantis]

 

I love scouts!  I love how they melt under my sustain peasant guns.  Also skrub is a fuzzy bunny word?

 

Until you meet an orblord who knows how to dance

[Silverfire]

Until you meet an orblord who knows how to dance

Well yes.

But it's more so an issue with the brokenness of orblording than the Scout itself I think. Kind of applies to all orblord builds.

Edited by Silverfire, 05 April 2015 - 08:15 AM.

[Meraple]

That mech moves half the speed of smell and its secondary weapon does exactly the same damage as thin raider, AND its ability lasts a whopping 7 seconds or so which is just in enough in practice to get you around one corner.  Flank with 7/8ths of your team or die.

The G2 Raider's Secondary does more damage than the Raider's.

It has the Corsair from pre-change. (the latest change to it)

 

Fuel Converter helps alot to make the ability last longer in my opinion.

[Flifang]

Fyi, the G2 raider's ability hardly lasts 7 seconds. It's about 5 and 1/3 seconds. Most of the time you don't even want to run out your feel with it completely either because the cool down is short enough that getting caught without even enough fuel to hop is too dangerous.

Back on the topic of scouts, lately I have decided to play the scout again for old time sakes and the fact I miss playing it. I have yet to get any hate from people when I do well in a match, I did however get a "..." That felt oh so satisfying seeing in chat. Then again I probably don't stand out much as I've played about 730 hours in matches and have only been hackused twice...
Poor me

[KillerMariosCY]

https://www.youtube....h?v=7I9Zzns2XkE

Edited by KillerMariosCY, 06 April 2015 - 03:26 AM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

https://www.youtube....h?v=7I9Zzns2XkE

 

Private video, Marios