25 replies to this topic

[Kopra]

Hey.

 

I combined the values from the Salty Stats with the information I gathered earlier on spread patterns and hitboxes.

The three big sustained weapons are the easiest to analyze this way (it's mostly DPS without significant burst factors), plus my time is limited so there you go.

 

Basically, these assume perfect aim and what is their expected DPS vs. different hitboxes. I only took the first 250 meters to analyze these 3 because you can probably guess the trend from there; all do pitiful damage beyond that point.

 

 

 

PS. If you wish to look at the data in Excel or other office program, click here (dropbox).

 

[Silent_]

What I really need is t32 vs eoc. If possible, both perfect aim and realistic estimate.

Edited by Silent_, 02 October 2015 - 05:33 AM.

[Hyginos]

what exactly are A, B, and C for each weapon? Is that the mech class you're shooting at?

[Kopra]

What I really need is t32 vs eoc.

It's a bit more complex to compare those two, but I do have data on EOC hit rate based on reaction time and distance (a distance/DPS graph is doable).

[Kopra]

what exactly are A, B, and C for each weapon? Is that the mech class you're shooting at?

Yes.

[Silent_]

Estimates at what range eoc would be better choice over t32. U know, since t32 damage gets pitiful quite fast.

 

Also, devs please reduce time it takes to fire next puck. Currently too much factor of luck and enemys skill rather than users.

Edited by Silent_, 02 October 2015 - 05:41 AM.

[n3onfx]

AR master race confirmed.

[Hyginos]

I' be curious to see this graph divided by heat gen of the weapons.

[Coboxite]

What I really need is t32 vs eoc. If possible, both perfect aim and realistic estimate.

Easy, T32 is superior in every way.

[Rainbow_Sheep]

The 3 graph lines for the Vulcan look like an epic half pipe

[peacecraftSLD]

Data is nice to see but I go by the feel of the weapon.

[nepacaka]

Nice. How about some graphics for all shotguns? (flak, r35, Mflak, 32, breached-shotgun) :D

[CrimsonKaim]

Wow. Nice Kopra but ocne again, it shows how abritrary Hawken is. 

 

Like how realistic is that? 

 

E.g. Vulcan: 45m 100% DPS ... 5 meters more just about 80%. Trolololol.

 

And the AR, gosh. 

[Kopra]

Wow. Nice Kopra but ocne again, it shows how abritrary Hawken is. 
 
Like how realistic is that? 
 
E.g. Vulcan: 45m 100% DPS ... 5 meters more just about 80%. Trolololol.
 
And the AR, gosh.

Well. Since the hitboxes are not shaped like squares (think of the pov and hitscan traces) but rather tall rectangles. In a "real world situation" the curves would drop down a little smoother (but not much). Vulcan gets a double whammy on its DPS for having the hitboxes becoming exponentially smaller compared to the spread pattern AND the damage falloff starting at those distances.

Nice. How about some graphics for all shotguns? (flak, r35, Mflak, 32, breached-shotgun) :D

These are next.

I' be curious to see this graph divided by heat gen of the weapons.

You mean like DPS/Heat efficiency graph?

[Hyginos]

You mean like DPS/Heat efficiency graph?

 

Correct.

[Kopra]

Correct.

 

 

So, then just divided each graph by their heat per second value:

AR 7,00

SMC 5,83

Vulcan 7,30

 

Which resulted in DMG/heat graphs.

 

[CounterlogicMan]

What I really need is t32 vs eoc. If possible, both perfect aim and realistic estimate.

A graph with both of these on it wouldn't really tell you much about their relation.

 

They are far too different in operation and mechanics.

 

I like the post Kopra, keep it up!

 

Interested in the shotgun post as well.

 

One request in regard to these comparisons. Could we get A B C averaged then add in SA Hawkins, PPA, MAMA, BBY, and RPR. Just to get all the sustain in there.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 05 October 2015 - 06:45 AM.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

Wow. Nice Kopra but ocne again, it shows how abritrary Hawken is. 

 

Like how realistic is that? 

 

E.g. Vulcan: 45m 100% DPS ... 5 meters more just about 80%. Trolololol.

 

And the AR, gosh. 

I don't think we should even begin to bring out the realism argument and just take it for what it is. A game with little ambition to be a simulation.

Just think about dodging and boosting for example, even with an advanced anti-g-suit like the Libelle (drangonfly) a pilot would simply black out from dodging.

[Kopra]

Here's the shotguns, with the mess they've caused. DPS doesn't tell everything here (since most shotguns have a significant burst factor).

Another thing to note here, is since that for the closest range shotguns, spread is the most governing factor on expected DPS, and even a 1 meter error here on the hitbox/spread pattern match range could be big (especially when it comes to T32 vs. Flak).

 

[Kopra]

A graph with both of these on it wouldn't really tell you much about their relation.

 

They are far too different in operation and mechanics.

 

I like the post Kopra, keep it up!

 

Interested in the shotgun post as well.

 

One request in regard to these comparisons. Could we get A B C averaged then add in SA Hawkins, PPA, MAMA, BBY, and RPR. Just to get all the sustain in there.

 

I might use the B-class as a reference or average if I have a large sustain weapon comparison.

 

On the note of EOC, here's what we did quite some time ago with MaNia_C:

 

He was in a Reaper. Standing still. I shot a 6-puck volley at him and we took note how many he could dodge. We took notes how much armor he had left (which could be worked into hit% easily.

 

He had 65ish ping and judging from ingame, good/normal reaction times. The server quality itself though, not going to comment on that.

 

You can make a normalized curve out of the (maybe little too thin) results, which would make a a Falloff Range Start at 10 meters, and losing 1 puck each 15 meters, Falloff Range End being at 100 meters where your DPS is effectively 0.

 

 

So basically against an aware opponent with a dodge in reserve is a really tough nut to crack, unless you are close enough/pressure into dodging with a secondary into a position where avoiding the pucks is harder.

 

Since there's a 50 ms delay between pucks fired (so, with 6 pucks you have 250 ms between the first and last puck) this also means that some of the extra pucks are not very useful at longer ranges since there's too much time to react to those. If you consider corner play, an up to an extra 250ms delay really hurts your firepower if the opponent can dodge into cover (this is also a reason why I think extra speed would not benefit EOC pucks that much, you need to change the mechanics of the weapon like increasing fire rate to give it a better DPS for direct confrontations and/or providing a better mine function).

 

Or you can be psychic and hit all the pucks... but still lose in direct confrontations.

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 05 October 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[CrimsonKaim]

I don't think we should even begin to bring out the realism argument and just take it for what it is. A game with little ambition to be a simulation.
Just think about dodging and boosting for example, even with an advanced anti-g-suit like the Libelle (drangonfly) a pilot would simply black out from dodging.

Okey then I want 100% invisibility, armor platings that reduce kinetic damage by 100%, ability to fly/hover without burning fuel, same applies for boosting and dodging (oh, dodging already doesn't burn fuel!) and I want EU to speed up the mech in siege plus hitwcan for EOC and Heat cannon and don't forget about mirror armor that shoots back if someone attacks you.

As said, seven legged unicorns with double TOWs confirmed. There IS a unicorn!

Back on trafk. Realism must be present to a circan degree for example gravity on a planet or damage done by weapons. Otherwise you would create a complete arbitrary game that doesn't make any sense at all.
Exactly this definition applies to Hawken in some cases. It does not follow basic rules of physics and has cut so many rules just because of 'balancing' or 'design'.

I mean that is what makes a good or a bad shooter. Realism must be present to a certain degree. Hawken has some corners where this degree is not met.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I see it as what it is. A feature to balance the game and make it challenging. So I have no issues with the rappid decrease in dmg.

Taking damage is a must for the game to be fun, as is visibility of the mechs, burning fuel while boosting/flying is a feature used to avoid Hawken becoming flight sim. Those featuers are there for the reason of balancing the game and then they use some "realistic" sounding features to explain it and sell it to the player.

But I think we are on the same page to a certain degree.

[Kopra]

Here's all the sustained weapons (against B-class as a reference).

 

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 13 October 2015 - 07:50 AM.

[nepacaka]

what is "B_SAR" weapon? AM-SAR?
and "B_RPRwA/B ?" i can't undestand what is dis? :3

Edited by nepacaka, 12 October 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[Kopra]

what is "B_SAR" weapon? AM-SAR?

Yes.

 

RPRw/AB = RPR with Reaper's ability on

2xVulXT = 2x Vulcan XT

[nepacaka]

now i know that the best distantion to fight with SA it is 100m range, actually only AR can be concurent with SA on this distantion (sure, if both players have the same accuracy). 150 actually better, but it is only for support role, because you need a personal scout, who can execute your targets in close combat ;P

and, Kopra, thx for shotguns graph.

Edited by nepacaka, 12 October 2015 - 11:44 AM.