28 replies to this topic

[6ixxer]

I have been thinking it would be fun to have another C class with a chargeable secondary. A bit different to Incin in a couple of ways.
 
So what do we already have that could form the basis of the weapon... hmmm, heat cannons.
So i'll build up a concept from there.
 
The Charger has HP close to rocketeer @720
Walk speed similar to vanguard @17
Air speed above vanguard @27
Radar on low end @100
Fuel tank @90
Fuel Regen @11
 
Primaries (all chargeable semi's):
T32-Bolt
Breacher
Heat cannon
 
Secondary:
Shock Cannon. Repurposed heat cannon that shoots a charged ball, but instead of fire, it is electric plasma. Model would have some extra shielding and coils etc. Damage subject to balance, obviously will have uncharged and charged as per Heat and Saare. The shock cannon deals direct or splash same as HC, however, debuffs the speed of any mech it damages.
Bulkier mechs are affected less by the shock and do not slow as much. C slows 5% for 4 sec, B slows 10% for 4 sec, A slows 15% for 4 sec (not long, but you can just hit them again). Shock Cannon cannot be charged unless ability active.
 
Ability:
Infusion. Wings animate ala turkey, preferably with some faint glowing coils for added coolness :)
Allows the Shock Cannon to charge. Charged Shock Cannon adds additional 5% to debuff (C-10, B-15, A-20); Also slows the charger mech by 10% to 15.3m/s and makes it immune to its own and other chargers' speed debuffs.
 
Default Item:
Shield
 
Default internal:
Failsafe
 
Summary:
Walks and flies fairly fast for a C, when not using its ability. Excellent when around cover due to chargeable burst weapons.
Not as good against flying targets as it doesn't have airburst. Shield assists in giving cover when there is none around. Failsafe comes in handy when an opponent wants to scrape chassis' and you have to unleash a burst at point blank.
Slows down near brawler walk speed when Infusion active which gives it more damage and deals added speed debuff.
Its a mech that can permanently rock the wings out ?(???)?

 

Hopefully 1v1 it behaves a lot like a brawler but it has lower HP as it adds some support utility.
 
Ok, now this is where everyone says whether its even worth considering, stupid or OP.
 
Hey jjm1/Nepa, wanna help out with some Chassis concept art?
 
Cheers,
6ixxer

[kaiserschmarrn_]

We should make an a class that is like a tech that sucks heat from the mech it is locked on to: The Refridgerator

 

[DeeRax]

I like the concept, and I love the weapon choices, but this current iteration seems really OP.
Specifically, the speed debuff seems super OP, and the fact that it doesn't go away so long as you keep hitting the opponent (Which you will often, since it's a splash damage weapon). In fact, I really don't like the idea of anything at all causing a speed debuff in the game, it just smacks of "I really hate a-classes, so here's a weapon or item that specifically counters a-classes."

 

Maybe instead the shock gun can cause a chain-lightning effect? So lot's of mild "splash" damage against enemies that are closely grouped together? But then that would be stepping on the gren's toes, so I dunno... I guess I'd also personally prefer any electricity/plasma based weapon to fire lightning bolts, rather than be a heat cannon knock-off.
EDIT: I'm thinking, functionally, a sniper sort of weapon (lightning; accurate and bursty, but slow to fire) that causes splash damage from chain lightning, rather than explosives; So you can't just shoot the ground to get the splash damage, you have to actually hit another mech. I'd also like said weapon to have some sort of charging function, though I'm not sure what that might be........... Maybe instead of a single bolt, you can charge it for a weaker, but continuous stream that lasts a second or two (Good against groups, as opposed to a single enemy)? I dunno.

I'd also either make it a lot slower, or give it a lot less HP. As it stands, this is strictly better than the Vanguard, and maybe even Gren (let alone Rocketeer & G2R). Breacher is SUPER good, you have to balance for that.

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 19 October 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[kaiserschmarrn_]

I like the concept, and I love the weapon choices, but this current iteration seems really OP.
Specifically, the speed debuff seems super OP, and the fact that it doesn't go away so long as you keep hitting the opponent (Which you will often, since it's a splash damage weapon). In fact, I really don't like the idea of anything at all causing a speed debuff in the game, it just smacks of "I really hate a-classes, so here's a weapon or item that specifically counters a-classes."

 

Maybe instead the shock gun can cause a chain-lightning effect? So lot's of mild "splash" damage against enemies that are closely grouped together? But then that would be stepping on the gren's toes, so I dunno... I guess I'd personally prefer any electricity/plasma based weapon to fire lightning bolts, rather than be a heat cannon knock-off.

I'd also either make it a lot slower, or give it a lot less HP. As it stands, this is strictly better than the Vanguard, and maybe even Gren (let alone Rocketeer & G2R). Breacher is SUPER good, you have to balance for that.

YESSS! Another mech than can deal with groups! We need these guys, gren is the only good one.

 

also chain lightning sounds really cool

Edited by kaiserschmarrn_, 19 October 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Merl61]

Anything that slows movement is generally unfun. This would be stupid op vs A-Class mechs which are already not that great. 

[Bergwein]

I wouldn't put a Breacher on anything else but the Predator atm.

Why would I for example use the Heat Cannon over the Breacher? I guess I wouldn't.

[DeeRax]

I wouldn't put a Breacher on anything else but the Predator atm.

Why would I for example use the Heat Cannon over the Breacher? I guess I wouldn't.

Agree.

Since being on the forums, I've learned that the breacher is an intrinsic part of Pred's identity & role, same way the corsair KLA is a big part of what makes the raiders unique.

 

That said, I'm not entirely against giving a new mech the breacher, but it'll be tricky to balance, because it's such an awesome weapon.

Maybe instead of breacher, give it EOC repeater, which still sort of has a charge function. I'm not particularly thrilled with this option, though, since rocketeer already has both eoc repeater and heat cannon, and we could use more variety.

[maxajcd]

[deleted] 

Edited by maxajcd, 29 October 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[maxajcd]

I like the concept, and I love the weapon choices, but this current iteration seems really OP.
Specifically, the speed debuff seems super OP, and the fact that it doesn't go away so long as you keep hitting the opponent (Which you will often, since it's a splash damage weapon). In fact, I really don't like the idea of anything at all causing a speed debuff in the game, it just smacks of "I really hate a-classes, so here's a weapon or item that specifically counters a-classes."

 

Maybe instead the shock gun can cause a chain-lightning effect? So lot's of mild "splash" damage against enemies that are closely grouped together? But then that would be stepping on the gren's toes, so I dunno... I guess I'd also personally prefer any electricity/plasma based weapon to fire lightning bolts, rather than be a heat cannon knock-off.
EDIT: I'm thinking, functionally, a sniper sort of weapon (lightning; accurate and bursty, but slow to fire) that causes splash damage from chain lightning, rather than explosives; So you can't just shoot the ground to get the splash damage, you have to actually hit another mech. I'd also like said weapon to have some sort of charging function, though I'm not sure what that might be........... Maybe instead of a single bolt, you can charge it for a weaker, but continuous stream that lasts a second or two (Good against groups, as opposed to a single enemy)? I dunno.

I'd also either make it a lot slower, or give it a lot less HP. As it stands, this is strictly better than the Vanguard, and maybe even Gren (let alone Rocketeer & G2R). Breacher is SUPER good, you have to balance for that.

also lightning gun is already in the files so less work for devs

[6ixxer]

I kinda liked the idea of a speed debuff, but obviously we could rein that in to lower levels and duration.

I think that given the number of speed increasing internals that there should be a way to slow things down again so I wouldn't want to drop that feature, just balance it. A yin for every yang.

 

I'd be Ok with swapping the breacher for the EOC. I'm probably not as good with the breacher to make it seem OP in my mind. I can see dual HC type weapons being very fun and would potentially be more popular than the breacher? Could balance by making the speed lower to begin with and then dropping below brawler speed. I thought more HP than vanguard as it doesn't have the massive mitigation ability but it shouldn't have brawler HP. Somewhere around grenadier HP seem about right to me. The slow C and a speed debuff seemed like thew would work together.

 

If the speed debuff really* wasn't popular then I am open to ability suggestions to replace turret mode (would that mean change to B class?) and still keep the weapons as chargeable semis and then maybe just make the secondary a more traditional repurposed HC. I just want to get away from Tow and GL.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[6ixxer]

Need a poll on who likes/dislikes the speed debuff concept. We have heat-gen and damage-vuln debuffs already.

Speed stacking internals exist. Why can't we have something to slow things down a bit?

I expect dodge speed wouldn't be affected at all, and good players will be dodging every opportunity.

It encourages people to stay an finish the fight as they cant turn tail and run as easily.

Why is that a bad thing?

 

It would last only <4 sec unless re-applied, wouldn't stack, and only gets the higher debuff if the Charger is 'turreted' and therefore slow, similar or slower than a brawler.

 

Are people worried they'll go up against a Redox Tech + Mama Incin + Charger team?

 

Would love some feedback on the debuff, as opposed to saying "No" or "Lets give it a Lazor instead" type stuff.

 

What do people think of an internal that prevents these debuff mechanics?

Internal= 2-3 slot 'Damper'. Cuts debuffs by 50-75% respectively. Cuts heat-gen debuff, damage-vuln debuff and slowdown debuff. Could give reason to have a spare scout or infil with this internal and a speed increase internal to pull when you see the opposition using debuffing weapons.

 

I still think this is worthwhile exploring... *constructively* please.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[6ixxer]

Anything that slows movement is generally unfun. This would be stupid op vs A-Class mechs which are already not that great. 

 

I understand that it would be very un-fun if made OP, and I value your experience/feedback.

I'm hoping to get some discussion on what it would take to make it a balanced strategy.

 

What about the teams that find themselves getting rekt by multiple speed internal equipped A classes? Is that not un-fun?

I can tell you from experience that just 2-3 speed scout/zerker/infi and it gets un-fun very fast.

 

Would you consider it if all the slowdown % were changed? Halved?

What do you think of the Damper internal idea as a counter?

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[JackVandal]

I understand that it would be very un-fun if made OP, and I value your experience/feedback.

I'm hoping to get some discussion on what it would take to make it a balanced strategy.

 

What about the teams that find themselves getting rekt by multiple speed internal equipped A classes? Is that not un-fun?

I can tell you from experience that just 2-3 speed scout/zerker/infi and it gets un-fun very fast.

 

Would you consider it if all the slowdown % were changed? Halved?

What do you think of the Damper internal idea as a counter?

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

i like the idea of the damper so long as it counters the damage, heat, and debuffs, it wouldn't make sense if you had to run an internal to counter one or two mechs, i feel the speed debuff would have to be very slight, as the only thing that keeps A class relevant is their speed, its a similar issue to how high tier vs low tier is different, this would help low tier some, but totally break the upper to mid tier. A class are already scarce the higher you go, health generally is the way to go.

 

As for an alternative perhaps change the ability to an enemy speed debuff AoE around the mech? it would have to have a large range (as in more than incini ability range) to make it worth it, but it would balance it some i think, make alpha strikes think twice if their escape speed is reduced.

[Onstrava]

I like it, AoE mechs are always a breath of fresh air, the game could use more of them. Maybe instead of it shooting a ball of lightning. Perhaps make it shoot like a tesla coil chain lightning across the field. As for the movement thing, that's interesting and a good idea since no mech ingame currently messes with a players movement. I wonder though, have you also thought of perhaps the lightning distorting the enemies hud alittle when they get it. It is lightning after all, I doubt the mechs are insolated very well since the emp knocks them out. Just a thought.

[6ixxer]

JackV, I think AoE gets too far away from requiring pilots to have FPS aiming skill. Passive AoE even more.

 

A classes have the ability to dodge being hit by the debuff by taking to the air with AC and dodge well. They have the ability to mitigate the debuff by having an internal which could effectively counter Redox Tech and Mama Incin also (internal could have 2-3-4 slot sizes, with up to 100% debuff mitigation, etc). New internals are also concepts that we need more of and we have some that buff speed, with no counter. Get shot= go faster, kill someone= go faster. Put them on a fast mech with an experienced smurf and newbies just wish they would slow the fuzzy bunny down. If it counters/annoys smurfs and rarely get used in high tier then I think it has succeeded in its job.

 

I think the difference in low vs high tier comes down to 'the meta' and sometimes the meta changes. High tier will play the meta and ignore the other mechs. High tier might not see the value in charger and never use it as C don't get slowed much by it and it may be considered weak. Then the low tier get most benefit. I don't think we need to design every mech to work well in both tiers. Make it balanced in low tier and let high tier players choose not to use it. High tier players need new maps, low tier need new mechs. High tier often have duplicate mechs and can afford to keep a mech with items specifically to counter my concept so I am looking more at the low to mid tier balance and I think it is balanceable in those given the right feedback.

 

Onstrava, thanks for comment, but its going on a tangent by suggesting to use a different weapon. I like the heat cannon and wanted a mech that can charge and fire two similar cannons. I also wanted a concept where the weapon mechanic is there already to give it a good chance that the concept can be implemented in a reasonable timeframe. We have heat cannons to handle how it fires. We have debuffing weapons. Hack those together and we have a new niche weapon. Feel free to make a suggestion thread for a lightning mech. Devs know there is a lightning weapon designed already and will make a mech to use it if they see fit.

Edited by 6ixxer, 21 October 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[6ixxer]

6ixxer, on 22 Oct 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:6ixxer, on 22 Oct 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:6ixxer, on 22 Oct 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:6ixxer, on 22 Oct 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

I think the difference in low vs high tier comes down to 'the meta' and sometimes the meta changes. High tier will play the meta and ignore the other mechs. High tier might not see the value in charger and never use it as C don't get slowed much by it and it may be considered weak. Then the low tier get most benefit. I don't think we need to design every mech to work well in both tiers. Make it balanced in low tier and let high tier players choose not to use it. High tier players need new maps, low tier need new mechs.

 

I think this warrants further comment.

Top tier know all the maps and will get a new mech and drives like most other mechs, weapons like many others and sidegrade ability. They drive it around the same maps and probably will max it out in a week and then ask for a new mech as this one isn't competitive in top tier matches. Give them a new map and suddenly they are back in unfamiliar territory and they can relearn that map from the viewpoint of each class and even to individual mech strengths.

 

New pilots need to stay to boost player population. They are struggling to learn maps and are getting pwned by experienced pilots who know the map and come out of nowhere and disappear equally fast. They want to buy a mech that solves what they see as their biggest weakness, to get them over the hump to long term retention. If they think 'everyone else is just too fast' then this will give them an option.

 

My first mech purchase was the Pred. It solved what I saw as my main problem. I was still learning maps and I never knew where enemies were and they always knew right where I was. In reality it taught me that it was underpowered in inexperienced hands and I was better off with Bruiser for a while until I got better at anticipating and then moved to Zerker (both considered weak in high tier?). I now find I do well in brawler and I have tried orb lording; I have a scout with speed internals, etc.

 

EDIT: Monetization needs new players who have lots of stuff they want but don't have, and the biggest monetization comes from mechs. I can see this being popular with new players. I have all but 1 mech and I'd spend cash on this to get it immediately with first two weaps and the default internals. Especially if it comes with a hot looking chassis and the wing animation. I'd hopefully unlock the prestige weapon while learning the first two, but really i'd probably unlock that early with cash too. Probably even the painted chassis version.

Edited by 6ixxer, 21 October 2015 - 06:15 PM.

[JackVandal]

 

You make fair points, and its true there is no reason to make sure something is competitive at the top as well as the bottom, new maps would be wonderful, thought the general issue is they have a much higher resource input than new mechs, which are comparatively simple to implement quickly, i actually did the same with pred and bruiser when i first stared, as to the comp viability zerker is viable via its ability and air speed, bruiser is generally not, though a bruiser at mid range with no cover vs assault can actually be a coin toss, if the bruiser pilot can time their ability right.

[6ixxer]

Thanks Jack,
I was hoping that people would get past not wanting the speed debuff at all, due to there being ways to balance it.
Now we just need some good comments on what speed reductions are appropriate and whether making this a C is too tricky and make it a B.

Like if it was a B then both cannons charge and fire as per Heat and then the ability makes the secondary fire the debuffing shots but only for like 8 sec so you can only debuff a mech for max 12 sec before going into cooldown (assuming you hit it say 3 times, at beginning of ability, 4 sec and refresh it right before 8 sec). Actually you could still do this on C as we have grenadier/incin that has ability instead of turret mode.

Does the turret mode sound viable at all? to slow the charger down and increase its debuff slightly? I was hoping for a permanent turret mode that doesn't hunker down behind the shields or change damage taken. It just gets extra speed reduction on enemies at the expense of slowing the charger to brawler speed. I though it would balance ok from near vanguard speed down to brawler speed. Should it be prevented from dodging? I am ok with it not being able to fly in this mode but I think it still needs to be able to dodge where other turreted mechs cant. I'm not sure making it an ability like grenadier is what i'm after, but perhaps it should go that direction.

Edited by 6ixxer, 27 October 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[JackVandal]

the issue with the turret is it makes the mech a sitting duck, even without the damage increase from behind, the loss of mobility is almost never worth it, and thats not counting when an enemy can emp their face, if its got the normal movement speed of a c class that wouldnt be as bad, but the loss of a dodge is still brutal, think of it like guaranteed tow hits, i mean, i love the turret, and think it can be saved(thats a whole other thread) but atm its not a very good tactic outside of vanguard or the occasional Hawkins brawler.

[nepacaka]

Hey jjm1/Nepa, wanna help out with some Chassis concept art?

I can't. My HDD is broken, I use very old notebook now, which can blow up if I start drawing 50 layers in photoshop.

[6ixxer]

I can't. My HDD is broken, I use very old notebook now, which can blow up if I start drawing 50 layers in photoshop.

[6ixxer]

the issue with the turret is it makes the mech a sitting duck, even without the damage increase from behind, the loss of mobility is almost never worth it, and thats not counting when an enemy can emp their face, if its got the normal movement speed of a c class that wouldnt be as bad, but the loss of a dodge is still brutal, think of it like guaranteed tow hits, i mean, i love the turret, and think it can be saved(thats a whole other thread) but atm its not a very good tactic outside of vanguard or the occasional Hawkins brawler.

So unless there can be an exception to the dodge rule for turreted C, then it needs to be an ability like on Grenadier.
I was hoping it would be something you could choose to have on or off with the only issue being transition time between the modes, but not being able to dodge would definitely be an issue.

I was hoping to have the luxury of no cooldown like turrets have. Its probably too much to expect Devs to program an exception to non-dodging turrets so I would just come to terms with having an ability cooldown. Would mean that the secondary cannon would behave like a normal heat cannon mostly and just change the debuff level and mech movement speed when using ability. The original idea was that the secondary wouldn't be able to charge unless turreted to give more incentive to turret by also reaching its highest damage potential.

[JackVandal]

So unless there can be an exception to the dodge rule for turreted C, then it needs to be an ability like on Grenadier.
I was hoping it would be something you could choose to have on or off with the only issue being transition time between the modes, but not being able to dodge would definitely be an issue.

I was hoping to have the luxury of no cooldown like turrets have. Its probably too much to expect Devs to program an exception to non-dodging turrets so I would just come to terms with having an ability cooldown. Would mean that the secondary cannon would behave like a normal heat cannon mostly and just change the debuff level and mech movement speed when using ability. The original idea was that the secondary wouldn't be able to charge unless turreted to give more incentive to turret by also reaching its highest damage potential.

you could still use a B class concept, or have a unique turret, similar to the G2R animation, but instead you get your described ability, no boosting, but you can still dodge, then you could activate and deactivate it at will, still have a turret of sorts, but not have the no-dodge cripple

[6ixxer]

That would be great, but grenadier started with turret then changed to ability. Perhaps a Charger mech would get implemented with ability and then devs could rework it to a unique turret mode later. I think with all the people saying 'turrets need rework to be viable' that this suggestion actually gives some constructive feedback on what they can be.

I still want it to be a C class as I think if you're aiming to slow others down, then you should be slow yourself, and slow mechs need decent HP to be viable, so slowing a B still doesn't quite fit.

Now if only CapnJosh would turn up and say he's open to it...

:P

[TAZ_]

Shock cannon....hmm..sounds good..

I like the effect, slowing down another mech.

It's very useful for defensive.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Edited by Tazmanian, 30 October 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[6ixxer]

I have been trying to work out how the damage model on twin heat would compare to other mechs loadouts. Many mechs seem to hover around 160DPS combined (eg reflak raider, SMC+tow). Some vary generally +-10 DPS, etc.

 

I can't work out what the splash on the heats would be. I have figures on uncharged and charged direct hit, but the splash isn't clear.

 

It makes me wonder whether the uncharged dps on twin heat would be considered OP and if the secondary should have its stats modified to have less splash and potentially reward direct hits more to bring it more in line with other secondaries.

 

Tow has 125 direct and 50 splash? 55DPS accounting for reload time.

Uncharged heat is 60 damage per shot and charged heat has 80 direct (cant work out their splash).

79DPS per heat (uncharged) puts it right in the middle of the DPS race given all direct hits.

Breacher or EOC primary would lower this, T32 would raise this (although reduce effective range).

 

Ability aside, how would these weapon combos fare in terms of viability?

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[JackVandal]

I have been trying to work out how the damage model on twin heat would compare to other mechs loadouts. Many mechs seem to hover around 160DPS combined (eg reflak raider, SMC+tow). Some vary generally +-10 DPS, etc.

 

I can't work out what the splash on the heats would be. I have figures on uncharged and charged direct hit, but the splash isn't clear.

 

It makes me wonder whether the uncharged dps on twin heat would be considered OP and if the secondary should have its stats modified to have less splash and potentially reward direct hits more to bring it more in line with other secondaries.

 

Tow has 125 direct and 50 splash? 55DPS accounting for reload time.

Uncharged heat is 60 damage per shot and charged heat has 80 direct (cant work out their splash).

79DPS per heat (uncharged) puts it right in the middle of the DPS race given all direct hits.

Breacher or EOC primary would lower this, T32 would raise this (although reduce effective range).

 

Ability aside, how would these weapon combos fare in terms of viability?

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

i feel the twin heat would be difficult to time outside of using it as an alpha, the other issue is if you intend for this mech to have burst, sustain, or both, and if you do go the double heat route, remember that its kinda a pain to use against flying targets

[6ixxer]

I know it would be an issue against flyers, there has to be a downside somewhere. That's when you'd swap to t32 primary.

Also reason for suggesting shields and failsafe (although shields do tend to attract EMPs).

You just gotta play this mech close to cover so you can get all that good splash if you don't hit direct.

Their fuel won't last forever and hopefully you can land the debuff that slows them somewhat.

 

I wanted the charging weapons so you could choose charged to play lots of burst, or to use uncharged for sustain.

[6ixxer]

Now if only CapnJosh would turn up and say he's open to it...

:P

Cough*

No more silence Josh.

What are these 30 mechs at launch and more to come?

 

Any C class with dual HC and a speed debuffing ability? Hmm?