60 replies to this topic

[(P:B)Augmentia]

I think it might be interesting to introduce a special class of internals that were found as anomalies of the Hawken virus, and that when implemented properly in a mech, would boost it's stats. This would be something that would be extremely hard to obtain. Maybe in bot matches or something? I don't know.

[GreyFa1con]

My reason for the new class(es):
o Devs say new players have the hardest time learning movement, a critical skill you must master before you can compete in even mid-tier matches.
o Devs say they won't make anymore huge changes to movement.
o Between point one and two, it makes sense for new-player friendly classes to be damage sponges.

I'm really surprised they don't just do what WolfyFTW and SoldierHobbes11 (And Titanfall), by making the boost key be Spacebar. (And Shift be hover)

Less panic-mode hovering, and chaining together forward and side boosts is about all a newbie needs to make themselves a competent at mobility.

Add in a little on how to avoid popping up on radar, (And use your radar, which is hard because it should be default at the top-left of the screen)

And they'd be golden. (Or at least Bronze)

(Oh yeah, and the 180-boost-turn is the work of the devil. It's extremely disorienting. Seriously, it mostly does more harm than good on all but experienced heavy Mech players.)

_

Edited by GreyFa1con, 29 October 2015 - 03:52 PM.

[maxajcd]

also after a while when 2 super heavy mechs fight, they can't really move to cover that easily so its just a who-has-the-higher-dps battle

[Onstrava]

I don't think anybody has a real major problem with them making a new class. The more mech variety the better right? Plus its not like there isn't any potential for it. More mech = more outside interest.(players)

[TheButtSatisfier]

Can someone point to a part of the interview where Josh said a new class - not a new mech - was being considered by the dev team?

[nepacaka]

I'm really surprised they don't just do what WolfyFTW and SoldierHobbes11 (And Titanfall), by making the boost key be Spacebar. (And Shift be hover)

Less panic-mode hovering, and chaining together forward and side boosts is about all a newbie needs to make themselves a competent at mobility.

 

they made a classic shooter controls, shift=run, space=jump.
many people love this. if someone want strange controls, welcome to "game options"

[Superkamikazee]

 

 

11:00 - josh wants more exploration and discussion of gameplay mechanics but isn't sure how to flag remarkable threads. does anybody use the star votes in the forum?

 

 

Devs need to be careful how much they rely on community feedback, many times gaming communities are in their own little bubble, often a very loud bubble. Let's not repeat the last devs mistakes. 

[JeffMagnum]

Devs need to be careful how much they rely on community feedback, many times gaming communities are in their own little bubble, often a very loud bubble. Let's not repeat the last devs mistakes. 

 

But ADH's mistake was that they didn't listen to the feedback of the community? I was in HAB1, and there was almost unanimous opposition to virtually all the changes made in Ascension that were subsequently rolled back in the Steam patch. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 October 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Sylhiri]

But ADH's mistake was that they didn't listen to the feedback of the community? I was in HAB1, and there was almost unanimous opposition to virtually all the changes made in Ascension that were subsequently rolled back in the Steam patch. 

 

After a long wait between patches and giving us a basically finished patch (except the sustain bug and minor other bugs) to give feedback on (aka free bug test for us), there was no way they wouldn't just roll it out anyway. They waited for feedback from HAB2 which said the patch was acceptable and (ADH) basically dismissed all the concerns of HAB1. If HAB2 voiced the same concerns would they have stopped the patch for a rework or would they have just let it go through anyway?

Edited by Sylhiri, 30 October 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

I'm not implying that it was necessarily feasible for them to not go through with Ascension after getting so far, but saying ADH's failures were brought on by them listening to the playerbase is completely false when they did the opposite and had to undo what everyone in HAB1 said was terrible months later. Out of curiosity, was HAB2 ADH's attempt to get feedback from average players instead of from the people with a good amount of experience who were in HAB1? 

[Sylhiri]

Out of curiosity, was HAB2 ADH's attempt to get feedback from average players instead of from the people with a good amount of experience who were in HAB1? 

 

I'm not sure as I was in HAB1. I remember one of the dev community peoples suggesting it but I think it was mostly hearsay when people compaired the roster of who they known between HAB1 and HAB2. I remember members of BSB who were in HAB2 remarking on who was involved in HAB2.

 

Personally, from all their talk of "new player experience" from ADH at the time I would say that HAB2 was feedback from the average player. I believe that was their attempt to appeal to new players.

[GreyFa1con]

they made a classic shooter controls, shift=run, space=jump.
many people love this. if someone want strange controls, welcome to "game options"

Which ends up having people panic hovering, and walking during a firefight. With maybe a little bit of "sprinting" occasionally. Instead of primarily sticking to mixing up boosts and ground dodges.

A "normal shooter" setup, is a bad idea, if you want people to move differently than a normal shooter.

And whether or not a new player picks up good boosting control is the difference between "competent newbie" and "screw this game, I'm uninstalling it".

Worst comes to worst, a new player might be confused about where the jump key is for a few rounds. Which isn't that big a deal, since nearly everywhere has ramps.

(That said, they should also make Ctrl be the default repair key, since it's another high priority key, and the animation is technically crouching. And "What's the repair button" is all too common a newbie question)

(They also need to fix the tutorial prompt just before the missile turret, that freezes the game if you have hover bound to anything but spacebar)


_

Edited by GreyFa1con, 30 October 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[The_Silencer]

I'm confident on that cockpit integration is being well taken into accout. That will vastly increase the immersion factor in the game as well as its gameplay overall quality, IMHO.

 

Very good interview; feeling positively satisfied here at my end.

 

Thumbs up! ;)

[nepacaka]

Which ends up having people panic hovering, and walking during a firefight. With maybe a little bit of "sprinting" occasionally. Instead of primarily sticking to mixing up boosts and ground dodges.

A "normal shooter" setup, is a bad idea, if you want people to move differently than a normal shooter.

And whether or not a new player picks up good boosting control is the difference between "competent newbie" and "screw this game, I'm uninstalling it".

Worst comes to worst, a new player might be confused about where the jump key is for a few rounds. Which isn't that big a deal, since nearly everywhere has ramps.

(That said, they should also make Ctrl be the default repair key, since it's another high priority key, and the animation is technically crouching. And "What's the repair button" is all too common a newbie question)

(They also need to fix the tutorial prompt just before the missile turret, that freezes the game if you have hover bound to anything but spacebar)


_

You talking as if 99% players a stupid idiots, who don't understand nothing in this life.
when I start play in game, I always check and change default controls.

Also, we have tutorial, stupid blonde layla tell players about all important buttons in game. If player don't want play in tutorial, he obviously have enough brain to change controls.

Edited by nepacaka, 30 October 2015 - 11:31 PM.

[GreyFa1con]

You talking as if 99% players a stupid idiots, who don't understand nothing in this life.
when I start play in game, I always check and change default controls.

Also, we have tutorial, stupid blonde layla tell players about all important buttons in game. If player don't want play in tutorial, he obviously have enough brain to change controls.

Good for you. But you aren't a typical new player. If anything, you're a tinkerer with extra-ordinary patience.

99% of new players are that "dumb" because they are trying to play Hawken the same way that you'd play Halo or Counterstrike. Or any other FPS game in existence.

Any time I'm paired up with a newbie, (Or watch a new player Let's play on YouTube) that's the actual behavior I see. Panic hovering, walking in a firefight, and immobilizing themselves with the 180 boost if they get rushed.

Might as well paint a big bullseye on them.

Which makes sense, since Josh points out, 1. Vast majority of new players usually only last 3 days and quit the game entirely 2. They aren't picking up the movement mechanics.

Goal #1 for the current dev team is how to up the retention of newbies.

And the best way to do that is to give them a default control setup that doesn't encourage doing everything that gets you killed.


_

Edited by GreyFa1con, 31 October 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[DM30]

Good for you. But you aren't a typical new player. If anything, you're a tinkerer with extra-ordinary patience.

99% of new players are that "dumb" because they are trying to play Hawken the same way that you'd play Halo or Counterstrike. Or any other FPS game in existence.

Any time I'm paired up with a newbie, (Or watch a new player Let's play on YouTube) that's the actual behavior I see. Panic hovering, walking in a firefight, and immobilizing themselves with the 180 boost if they get rushed.

Might as well paint a big bullseye on them.

Which makes sense, since Josh points out, 1. Vast majority of new players usually only last 3 days and quit the game entirely 2. They aren't picking up the movement mechanics.

Goal #1 for the current dev team is how to up the retention of newbies.

And the best way to do that is to give them a default control setup that doesn't encourage doing everything that gets you killed.


_

 

I really don't see switching hover and boost keys having any kind of significant impact. What I would predict is players come into the game who are familiar with the shift sprint and space jump setup, try to 'run' and jump instead, get confused, figure out that space is run and not shift, and then go on their merry way panic hovering with the shift key and not using the dodge key just like they do now. Granted, I have no backing for this without seeing it tested in game, but I really think it's more an issue of mindset rather than what button does what.

 

Instead of tinkering with key configurations to debatable effect, I feel like creating level-restricted beginner servers like many people have suggested would have a much greater impact on reducing frustration in new players. It would give them an environment where everyone can panic hover to their heart's content until they learn that ground dodging is a much more effective way of staying alive, without veteran players getting quick-matched into their game and having a field day shooting down all the big floating targets.

[nepacaka]

If you switch shift and space, they start activate "panic boost" instead, lol. And use "punic hover" when trying runaway ))

Most of problem for many people shift+s, but in matches which I play I very rare see people who do it in fight, it may happen only in super-low tier match with 1250mmr players. After several fight people understand how it working.

I feel like creating level-restricted beginner servers like many people have suggested would have a much greater impact on reducing frustration in new players. It would give them an environment where everyone can panic hover to their heart's content until they learn that ground dodging is a much more effective way of staying alive

Problem n1 - smurfs
Problem n2 - they not see cool and dynamic fight, and how normal players do this correct.

I Suggest this idea many times.
Added/Put game mechanics tips on loading screen. Like:
"use dodge to evade enemies rockets"
"you can press RMB again and detonate your TOW rockets in fight"
"use your boost key(shift) to moving and reach point faster"
"don't get bullets, bullets kill you"

Edited by nepacaka, 31 October 2015 - 11:49 PM.

[bacon_avenger]

 

But ADH's mistake was that they didn't listen to the feedback of the community? I was in HAB1, and there was almost unanimous opposition to virtually all the changes made in Ascension that were subsequently rolled back in the Steam patch.

After a long wait between patches and giving us a basically finished patch (except the sustain bug and minor other bugs) to give feedback on (aka free bug test for us), there was no way they wouldn't just roll it out anyway. They waited for feedback from HAB2 which said the patch was acceptable and (ADH) basically dismissed all the concerns of HAB1. If HAB2 voiced the same concerns would they have stopped the patch for a rework or would they have just let it go through anyway?

What I was told by someone was that the reception of the Ascension patch was about the same as round 1, just not with the same amount of, umm, 'passion'...
 

 

I'm not implying that it was necessarily feasible for them to not go through with Ascension after getting so far, but saying ADH's failures were brought on by them listening to the playerbase is completely false when they did the opposite and had to undo what everyone in HAB1 said was terrible months later. Out of curiosity, was HAB2 ADH's attempt to get feedback from average players instead of from the people with a good amount of experience who were in HAB1?

I'm not sure as I was in HAB1. I remember one of the dev community peoples suggesting it but I think it was mostly hearsay when people compaired the roster of who they known between HAB1 and HAB2. I remember members of BSB who were in HAB2 remarking on who was involved in HAB2.
 
Personally, from all their talk of "new player experience" from ADH at the time I would say that HAB2 was feedback from the average player. I believe that was their attempt to appeal to new players.

Ascension was dictated by MTR as a CoD player grab, and I believe that many in ADH either convinced themselves that it was a good patch or had to severely spin the heck out of it publicly.

 

I believe this is shown to be correct by the fact that, as mentioned, ADH rolled back most of the changes to the mechanics as soon as it was moved to Steam (read: After MTR was gone).

 

I also specifically remember being told by ADH in the teamspeak HAB 1 meeting that we were specifically chosen as we played Hawken the most (AKA the hardcore players).

 

(I still have two of the recordings as well.  If Josh is interested in listening to them, I'm more than willing to provide them.)

I would guess that round 2 was the ones that didn't quite play as much as round 1, but still played a good amount.

Edited by bacon_avenger, 01 November 2015 - 12:33 AM.

[ropefish]

im still hoping the morter mech will come into the light, ive been waiting on it forever!

i can dream at least ;p

[GreyFa1con]

If you switch shift and space, they start activate "panic boost" instead, lol. And use "punic hover" when trying runaway ))


I Suggest this idea many times.
Added/Put game mechanics tips on loading screen. Like:
"use dodge to evade enemies rockets"
"you can press RMB again and detonate your TOW rockets in fight"
"use your boost key(shift) to moving and reach point faster"
"don't get bullets, bullets kill you"

Trick with panic boosting is

1. They will quickly realize boosting at the enemy, and trying trying to shoot, does nothing. (Instant feedback)
2. Panic boosting to cover = good
3. And if they end up using the muscle memory to "jump to the side and shoot", presto, they got the mechanic down.

I do like the tips being more obvious, but dunno where's the best place to put them.

Maybe every time you die, they send you a chat message from "Trainer Layla:"

Which you can turn off/on by typing "!tips"

[nepacaka]

I do like the tips being more obvious, but dunno where's the best place to put them.

 

obviously, maps loading screen best place to put them. many MMO and sologames do this.
 

2. Panic boosting to cover = good

 

they never use panic boost for cover, because they look at enemy in this moment, and start run close to the enemy, not to cover. they also lose shooting ability while uses boost, and then just die.

actually, both way are stupid. people with "soft brain" can't play in hawken, just a fact.
you can change everything, and made hawken more easy, but they still can't play in hawken. these sort of people sucks in hawken, suck in unreal, suck in quake, suck in everything game (except dota2, where they make 0/20/5 statistic on mid).
you can't balance/change game for these peoples, because it doesn't help. just doesn't help.