23 replies to this topic

[MomOw]

It's been a long time since we discussed about incinerator 

 

what's your opinion about a quickfix ?

 

assumptions :

- same rof for charged / uncharged secondary (currently there is no difference so I assume the value must be the same)

- no animation modification (even animation speed can be tricky to modify).

 

The overall purpose is to reduce the PPA DPS, buff the M4MA and reduce the risk of using the ability

 

My ideas are :

 

SAARE nerf

- add a cooldown for incinerator secondary : 1.2s between each shots (rof ~0.8)

- reduce damage of charged SAARE from 60 to 70 (keep radius increase and heat debuff).

- keep same HPS (constant uncharged shots)

 

BBY buff

- increase heatgen to 12.5 HPS (constant uncharged shots)

 

PPA nerf

- increase spread to ~8 (same as point-D)

- reduce heat gen to 19 HPS (to be consistent with a rythm of 1 charged, 1 uncharged)

 

M4MA buff

- reduce spread to ~ 3.5 (same as RPR)

- increase projectile speed to 250 (same as MIRV)

- increase heatgen to 25 HPS (constant charged shots)

 

Ability buff

- Add a damage reduction of ~20% when using ability to compensate the fact that you can't move.

 

Edit :

DPS with these modifications :

BBY : 150

PPA : 162

M4MA : 138

Edited by (KDR) MomOw, 29 March 2016 - 07:30 AM.

[kaiserschmarrn_]

I think that these would be good fixes, but the inherent problem with incinerator is that it can shoot forever. If it is kept like this, the balance will probably always be a little bit awkward.

[MomOw]

For a suppression Mech a correct balance could be infinite shots with AOE but low DPS 

[nepacaka]

SAARE in first mode - 80 dmg, increase enemy heat per hit  - 0
SAARE in secondare mode - 0 dmg, increase enemy heat per hit - 5 or 10
problem solved. now inci is a Support mech

[The_Silencer]

I think that by slightly nerfing its weapons DPS plus positively breaking its infinite firepower might be the right way. For example, making him to be near to team mates to enjoy of its actual infinite firepower BUT at the same time removing that condition -to fire infinitely- if the Incin is going its own with no team mates neat to it.

 

It's just a pretty raw idea but I find it to be a valid possibility, which could work well enough on the field. Actually the Incin is too good and in the hands of an skilled pilot will pseudo-break the balancing of the gameplay.

 

+ quick question:

Does the Incin inflict damage -to enemies very near to it- when running its Special Ability?

Because some few times I've been killed while piloting A Class mechs, being very low on health and very near to an Incin running its S.A. IIRC, no other enemies were around either. Anyway, the Incin's S.A is supposed to overheat very near enemies not to killing them as well -if they are low on health. Is that so?

 

Thanks in advance

Edited by The_Silencer, 29 March 2016 - 11:51 AM.

[Meraple]

+ quick question:

Does the Incin inflict damage -to enemies very near to it- when running its Special Ability?

Because some few times I've been killed while piloting A Class mechs, being very low on health and very near to an Incin running its S.A. IIRC, no other enemies were around either. Anyway, the Incin's S.A is supposed to overheat very near enemies not to killing them as well -if they are low on health. Is that so?

Heat Dispersion (Incin's ability) does up to 150 damage, depending on the amount of heat dispersed.

[harmless_kittens]

Not trying to hijack, but can someone explain why every match I played against an Incin/Tech combo seemed unwinnable?  Do their special abilities just compliment each other so well, and maybe TOO WELL?

[Hyginos]

Not trying to hijack, but can someone explain why every match I played against an Incin/Tech combo seemed unwinnable?  Do their special abilities just compliment each other so well, and maybe TOO WELL?

 

The incinerator can suck heat from the tech and allow it to keep healing for much longer. This combo was essentially an immutable fact of competitive play when the north american league used TDM as its official game mode due in part to the synergy.

 

Your assessment that it is too strong is 100% correct, but you can still counter-play by showering the pair in EMPs or by focusing down the tech from very close or very long range.

Edited by Hyginos, 29 March 2016 - 01:03 PM.

[The_Silencer]

Heat Dispersion (Incin's ability) does up to 150 damage, depending on the amount of heat dispersed.

If that's so then its S.A is too good, at least versus many A Class mechs

[DM30]

If that's so then its S.A is too good, at least versus many A Class mechs

Yeah, no. It's only really useful to finish off very low health A-classes that are dancing around you at point blank range. Otherwise the length of the ability's animation just makes you a sitting duck. Plus, if you do survive using it, you've just used all your heat so you can't fire your SAARE until you've spun up and started firing your primary again.

The Incin does a few too many things a bit too well to really be considered balanced, most significantly how well it pairs with Tech, but its ability is definitely not one of those things.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

buff the mama and nerf the saare can be accomplished by nerfing the mama and buffing the saare interesting

[MomOw]

buff the mama and nerf the saare can be accomplished by nerfing the mama and buffing the saare interesting

 

please quote and explain further, I don't get your point.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

sorry it is not interesting anymore noticed that nerfing saare will not buff the mama as a result unlike buffing the mama will result in a buff to the saare likely

anyway i thought that doing those two things would also cancel themnselves out or cause interesting effects

like what if nerfing saare this way - remove secondary fire and buffing mama (probably meaning better heat generation and or better projectile damage/splash will mean no heat used to fire secondary so you can get many special ability uses making you more viable up close combat

Edited by Bastardo, 29 March 2016 - 09:23 PM.

[nepacaka]

actually, the only one way to fix it, make him the normal overheat system like all other mech have. Do not kid yourself, another way to fix the incinerator does not exist.it must conform to "solid hawken rules" to be a normal mech.

[MomOw]

sorry it is not interesting anymore noticed that nerfing saare will not buff the mama as a result unlike buffing the mama will result in a buff to the saare likely

anyway i thought that doing those two things would also cancel themnselves out or cause interesting effects

like what if nerfing saare this way - remove secondary fire and buffing mama (probably meaning better heat generation and or better projectile damage/splash will mean no heat used to fire secondary so you can get many special ability uses making you more viable up close combat

 

My opinion about incin':

bby is somewhat OK.

PPA is OP, mainly because charged SAARE full DPS is too high. 

M4MA is underpowered, because of a high spread and slow projectiles.

 

what is important is primary HPS vs secondary HPS.  (nota bene : secondary HPS is negative). 

 

Quickfix can be damage reduction or rof reduction, or both.

 

M4MA HPS is only meaningful in regard of SAARE negative HPS. In my example I reduced the rof of the secondary (to reduce the DPS), which implied a reduction of the secondary HPS. Then I adjusted primary HPS to be consistent with a specific use of the SAARE.

[The_Silencer]

Yeah, no. It's only really useful to finish off very low health A-classes that are dancing around you at point blank range. Otherwise the length of the ability's animation just makes you a sitting duck. Plus, if you do survive using it, you've just used all your heat so you can't fire your SAARE until you've spun up and started firing your primary again.

The Incin does a few too many things a bit too well to really be considered balanced, most significantly how well it pairs with Tech, but its ability is definitely not one of those things.

Yes and not as well.. I do see you point and it's mostly valid; imho.

But if you are the one who is piloting the A Class mech woiuld not be so valid point. For example in DM that's a bit unfair, imho. In the other modes there's a number of cases in which the thing looks like pretty infair too. Dunno, I just wanted to mention that in here.

[Panzermanathod]

actually, the only one way to fix it, make him the normal overheat system like all other mech have. Do not kid yourself, another way to fix the incinerator does not exist.it must conform to "solid hawken rules" to be a normal mech.

I missed you and how I would disagree with you. *hugs*

[MomOw]

My opinion about incin':

PPA is OP, mainly because charged SAARE full DPS is too high. 

 

Having played BBY in 2k lobbies yesterday, and it is not OK.

The spread is really high for mid-range use and the rof is not high enough for a real spray of bullets.

In addition the uncharged SAARE has low speed, low damage and a small radius.

 

 

 

 

SAARE

- add a cooldown for incinerator secondary : 1.2s between each shots (rof ~0.8)

- charged / uncharged SAARE : 70 dmg (58 DPS)

- keep same HPS (constant uncharged shots)

- uncharged SAARE : speed 200m/s

 

BBY modification

- increase heatgen to 12.5 HPS (constant uncharged shots)

- same rof and dmg/bullet as SMC 

 

PPA nerf

- increase spread to ~8 (same as point-D)

- reduce heat gen to 19 HPS (to be consistent with a rythm of 1 charged, 1 uncharged)

 

M4MA buff

- reduce spread to ~ 3.5 (same as RPR)

- increase projectile speed to 250 (same as MIRV)

- increase heatgen to 25 HPS (constant charged shots)

 

Ability buff

- Add a damage reduction of ~20% when using ability to compensate the fact that you can't move.

Edited by (KDR) MomOw, 18 April 2016 - 11:19 PM.

[JackVandal]

i always liked the idea of making the incinerator ability change the SAARE into a flamethrower with DoT and moderate heat transfer to enemy mechs, though i don't think that's a quick fix, i feel it would potentially compliment the mech and the purpose(support) it was intended to have, in addition the changes mentioned above.

[harmless_kittens]

I would like to see that particularly devastating primary weapon nerfed a little bit, but overall I don't get killed by Incins much more than anything else (but I play in low MMR matches).  But recently I've been leaving any match where the enemy team has a Tech/Incin combo in capable hands, and our team DOESN'T.  Those matches are a joke and end up with horribly imbalanced scores.  (And I still maintain my belief that the Technician is bad for a game where the goal is to kill enemy mechs.  There is enough healing already without having a healer on the battlefield.)

[MomOw]

The alternate primary weapon of the incin (PPA minigun) is not OP by itself.

What is OP is the charged SAARE rof when using this weapon and the lack of overheating issues (beside errors) (akka infinite DPS).

[Panzermanathod]

People seem to be confusing Infinite DPS with infinite firing.

 

Infinite DPS would be insta-killing everyone. Incin does not have Infinite Damage Per Second.

[MomOw]

I do agree about "infinite DPS", but that's how it's called so...

[Panzermanathod]

Call it a nitpick, but people who say the Incin has "Infinite DPS" need to use an actually correct term. Damage per second has a very specific meaning and, yes, while I do know my favorite Axe has "some" disrespect towards it, at the very least use the correct term.