230 replies to this topic

[TheButtSatisfier]

I'm starting to think that dealing with internals could be the good way to deal with it, and that 2 items buffing orb health regen could be too much.

 

What about :

a repair kit that increase repair rate when you use the repair button (something equivalent to a Mech equipped with an extractor poping an orb before repairing)

an extractor with reduced effectiveness when you are hit (half bonus or something, as already being said).

 

To add to this:

 

Keep the repair kit mechanics the way they are, and change the extractor to a new item that increases health regen while drop-healing (pressing "C") based on a % of mech health.

 

Is anyone going to miss not having the extractor for EU? If so, then add that to the repair kit, or make it a new item.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 25 September 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[phed]

we keep having this discussion like having locked internals doesn't factor in...

 

in the current howken it's only brawler that orblorbs, right?  

 

i don't think orblord brawler is 'that' powerful, it mainly works against his greatest deficit -- poorest mobility in game -- and further roots him in place.  easy counter is to just not engage there.  

 

 

 

ps: in my mind the brawler is a bloke, even when piloted by a shiela

[Charcoal]

we keep having this discussion like having locked internals doesn't factor in...

 

in the current howken it's only brawler that orblorbs, right?  

 

i don't think orblord brawler is 'that' powerful, it mainly works against his greatest deficit -- poorest mobility in game -- and further roots him in place.  easy counter is to just not engage there.  

 

 

 

This only applies to DM type games. 

An Orblord brawler in Siege can be a game maker

Edited by Charcoal, 08 August 2016 - 10:23 PM.

[ArchMech]

we keep having this discussion like having locked internals doesn't factor in...

 

in the current howken it's only brawler that orblorbs, right?  

 

i don't think orblord brawler is 'that' powerful, it mainly works against his greatest deficit -- poorest mobility in game -- and further roots him in place.  easy counter is to just not engage there.  

 

 

 

ps: in my mind the brawler is a bloke, even when piloted by a shiela

"functional customization is broken" until then its all in the air

[6ixxer]

I am against this for the same reason I am against and anti-scanner: introducing a hard counter to deal with an OP item is not a robust way to balance.

While I respect your opinion as an experienced player, it doesn't necessarily have new player experience in mind.

There has to be items and internals for variety and they wont always balance.
I'm also not just sitting back suggesting one item to disrupt orblording, I'm suggesting that we could reduce orblording internals AND also have this item which doesn't only target orblord. I have suggested numerous items previously to spice things up.

If not having the item was just as good as having it, then why would we go unlocking them?
The answer is each player equips the items that suit their playstyle or interrupt other players playstyle. Hello EMP. Lets go nerf EMP cos we hate getting hit by them?

I also think we need more AoE charges to be used in Siege and MA (and CTF!), both defensive an offensive.
That's where I see balance. Having a counter-strategy. I'll throw HC and even MC at it, which is good for the game at a different level.

If you think "I'm good because I carry Dets and speed internals. Scanner users suck" then other pilots will rage at you and equip any measure they can in order to spot you coming and increase their survivability. And they should be able to. If you hate getting scanned, then equip an internal that hides you from scanners while not actively generating heat, and sacrifice your speed/orbsucking internals.

I suggested a speed debuffing weapon and all the veterans cried that they didn't want to be robbed of their precious speed; so I suggested a Damper internal that can reduce debuffs from any source by n1%, n2%, n3% etc (including redox, bear mama heat, and speed reduction). Oh no, they now cant orblord or use AC (which are hated by other pilots).

I suggested an internal to reduce the duration of EMP/ISM too, but if you don't like EMPs enough to equip it then you have to give up something else. Perhaps even get duplicate mechs with different loadouts (more revenue for RLD). Anti-scanner (3 slot) and Damper II (3 slot) could be the build for someone that hates the Scanner/EMP prevalence. It gives them their independence to flank and perhaps point blank EMP another player knowing they will get their weapons back sooner (unless the other guy has Damper III!).

I like a game of compromises, not necessarily balance. Have items/internals/abilities that cause other players to actively seek out ways to counter it. The game stays interesting and will more often get new content than nitpicking over perfect balance. Comp players are organised enough to ban items if they are too OP for comp.

In a game where new pilots are thrown in with veterans, you need to give the fresh pilots benefit of the doubt or they'll leave forever. No fresh pilots means no upcoming mid-high tier. When we have a high enough population, then we can talk about rebalancing everything. Except PN-223 Reloaded. You can balance that now :)

Edited by 6ixxer, 09 August 2016 - 01:50 AM.

[Hyginos]

...it doesn't necessarily have new player experience in mind.

 

That's exactly what it has in mind. We are talking about a game that has a Free2Play^� grind. If the only way to escape unfettered wallhax or being a dead mech walking (that is, mobility inhibited) is to buy an internal/item then you are placing an HC/MC wall between a new player and competitiveness. Outplay should always be available, even at minute zero.

 

The everything is OP so nothing is OP approach is fine for mobas, but it doesn't fit in arena shooters.

 

Also, TPG's ban on RK/EX has shown pretty definitively that base orb pickup is pretty well balanced. This makes removing the ability to increase orb pickup rate with internals an extremely safe balance change. The play testing has already been done.

[TheButtSatisfier]

There has to be items and internals for variety and they wont always balance.

 

Only if they are designed poorly.

 

Creating an item to balance another one is like trying to address the wage gap by just making one woman extremely, extremely rich. Technically each solution "works" by narrow definition, but in practice they both fail to address the issue.

 

OP asked us for suggestions regarding how to address orblording. I argue that the most optimal change is the one that (1) affects the fewest items, (2) affects the fewest internals, (3) takes the least amount of development time, and (4) has the least in-game impact.

 

As multiple people have pointed out, many TPG players have seen that just removing the extractor and repair kit from play neutralized any orblording issues. This means that everything except those two items internals are just fine.

 

Can we address the issue in another way than by just addressing one, or both, of those items internals?

 

Absolutely.

 

Here - I think we should have a mechanism where every mech starts out with three orbs, but they're excluded from our item inventory. They just come with the mech, like power windows do in a modern car. Now here's the kicker - you can only deploy those orbs by doing a series of 180 spins, and they have to be timed so that you are spinning as fast as the game allows. Then, it's like you are "slinging" the orbs out of you like the spin cycle on a washing machine. It doesn't stop there though. Next, you need a holo to be on the orb to act as a negative charge point, and your mech has a positive charge point, and that's how the health is transferred to your mech. That way, you can only siphon from an orb if a holo is on it. Bam, problem solved. Players now will be 180'ing in combat to desperately deploy their orbs, and who knows where they'll go! And now holos are actually included in the meta. Win-win-win-win-win.

 

Barring that, I think we should just change the mechanics and values of both the extractor and repair kit and leave everything else alone. That way, the solution is optimal when gauged against the 4 criteria I listed earlier.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 09 August 2016 - 04:37 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

I'm reading and taking it all in, and the easiest, most effective thing I've seen is still to make it so a player can only deploy 1 orb at a time and healing is interrupted for a few seconds if the player is shot.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I'm reading and taking it all in, and the easiest, most effective thing I've seen is still to make it so a player can only deploy 1 orb at a time and healing is interrupted for a few seconds if the player is shot.

 

I'm gonna be nitpicky:

 

"Easiest" for who? The developers? How do you know?

 

"Most effective" at doing what? Every suggestion to address orb lording so far indeed addresses orb lording in unique ways, including my extremely awesome suggestion that players should have to 180 a number of times in perfect sequence before they sling out an orb in a random direction and distance.

 

I'll also reiterate what others have said regarding the orb healing interrupt on damage: that runs the risk of at least moderately changing the pace, and potentially meta, of Hawken. It's important that balancing attempts are kept small to minimize any changes elsewhere in the game. If orblording is an issue, address the orblording internals. It's been mentioned multiple times in the thread already, but when the orblord internals are removed from play, orbs are considered fairly balanced. Addressing the internals would be the most unobtrusive way to address orblording, as those changes only affect players who use those internals - not every player who uses an orb (everyone).

 

The risk with balance changes that address more than just the unbalanced aspect of the game is that they can have unintended consequences. If a developer makes a habit of making large changes to balance something then they can create a chain of overbearing balance attempt --> unintended consequence --> overbearing balance attempt --> unintended consequence. If the balancing attempts are limited to the unbalanced aspects exclusively, then the risk of self-inflicting unintended changes is minimized.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 09 August 2016 - 01:25 PM.

[DallasCreeper]

we keep having this discussion like having locked internals doesn't factor in...

 

in the current howken it's only brawler that orblorbs, right?  

 

i don't think orblord brawler is 'that' powerful, it mainly works against his greatest deficit -- poorest mobility in game -- and further roots him in place.  easy counter is to just not engage there.  

 

 

 

ps: in my mind the brawler is a bloke, even when piloted by a shiela

Vanguard has it as well.

[Darktim300]

I mean, you could just make the orbs detonate for some damage when shot. Thus it would be a cost vs benefits scenario to stand on them.

 

Might discourage standing on three of them if they went pop when you are already low health. 

[_incitatus]

Next, you need a holo to be on the orb to act as a negative charge point, and your mech has a positive charge point, and that's how the health is transferred to your mech. That way, you can only siphon from an orb if a holo is on it. Bam, problem solved. Players now will be 180'ing in combat to desperately deploy their orbs, and who knows where they'll go! And now holos are actually included in the meta. Win-win-win-win-win.

Since holos cost HC/MC, requiring them to heal is obviously p2w. Like the old consumables.

Also, holos are already part of the meta. In fact, they ARE the meta.

[StubbornPuppet]

I don't "know" anything Buttsatisfier.  This is a place for opinions and discussions.  I always like to presume that whatever I, as an individual type, unless I say, "it's a fact", will be presumed to be my opinion.

 

By "easiest", I kind of meant "simplest" from a game-play mechanic standpoint.  As for development, I'll concede that making them interrupted by fire and only deployable one at a time should technically be more complicated than removing them entirely.

 

I would, I suppose, be fine if they just took out the internal(s) that allow "more and faster" absorption of orbs.  I suppose they could just make them so they work only on drawing EU from the towers.  But, the problem there, is that it would mean you have an internal that is only useful in one game mode.

[TurquoiseTortoise]

remove orbs from the mecha game ?

 

make orbs exclusively an item you must deploy?

Edited by TurquoiseTortoise, 10 August 2016 - 10:41 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I don't "know" anything Buttsatisfier.  This is a place for opinions and discussions.  I always like to presume that whatever I, as an individual type, unless I say, "it's a fact", will be presumed to be my opinion.

 

When I asked you, "How do you know," I wasn't trying to steer the conversation into philosophical territory. I was asking for supporting arguments and evidence, so thank you for providing them and clarifying your position.

[StubbornPuppet]

I don't "know" anything Buttsatisfier.  This is a place for opinions and discussions.  I always like to presume that whatever I, as an individual type, unless I say, "it's a fact", will be presumed to be my opinion.

 

 

When I asked you, "How do you know," I wasn't trying to steer the conversation into philosophical territory. I was asking for supporting arguments and evidence, so thank you for providing them and clarifying your position.

 

I always like to get all philosophical and fuzzy bunny. :P

[6ixxer]

That's exactly what it has in mind. We are talking about a game that has a Free2Play^� grind. If the only way to escape unfettered wallhax or being a dead mech walking (that is, mobility inhibited) is to buy an internal/item then you are placing an HC/MC wall between a new player and competitiveness. Outplay should always be available, even at minute zero.

 

The everything is OP so nothing is OP approach is fine for mobas, but it doesn't fit in arena shooters.

 

Also, TPG's ban on RK/EX has shown pretty definitively that base orb pickup is pretty well balanced. This makes removing the ability to increase orb pickup rate with internals an extremely safe balance change. The play testing has already been done.

 

Noobs can grind their own scanner or an anti-scanner internal and then its no longer an issue.

I honestly DGAF about the grind. People need to suck it up or pay some cash cos thats how free to play works.

"Outplay should always be available, even at minute 0" sounds utopian, rather than a set rule.

I have played other free2play grinds and I didn't have the upgrades so I got pwned.

 

I also have said i'm not against changing the internal, but would also like to keep my suggestion on the table as it is relevant.

Edited by 6ixxer, 10 August 2016 - 10:44 PM.

[Hyginos]

Noobs can grind their own scanner or an anti-scanner internal and then its no longer an issue.

I honestly DGAF about the grind. People need to suck it up or pay some cash cos thats how free to play works.

"Outplay should always be available, even at minute 0" sounds utopian, rather than a set rule.

I have played other free2play grinds and I didn't have the upgrades so I got pwned.

 

I also have said i'm not against changing the internal, but would also like to keep my suggestion on the table as it is relevant.

 

Just because other f2p games are poorly balanced and steep on the grind doesn't mean Hawken has to be, or would benefit from it, but I think at this point we are deviating from the topic.

 

"The orb lording problem" is not a problem with orbs. It is a problem with RK/EX being the clear optimal build over the next strongest internal. If you get rid of RK and EX's orb sucking properties then they can fall in line with the rest of the internals. Adding an anti-orb is a separate discussion, as it will have an impact on death orbs, mechs that don't have RK/EX, and very probably the flow of the whole game depending on execution.

 

Certainly adding an anti-orb is not unreasonable, but if you fix the RK/EX problem and introduce an anti orb then you have a hard counter to an item that is otherwise fairly in line with other options. Is it worth solving the problem twice? If you leave RK/EX broken they will still be the optimal build, as internals will out-last anti-orb item charges be virtue of permanence. Strictly speaking I'm not against an anti-orb item, I just don't think it solves the orb vacuum problem, and I think its implementation has to be very careful.

 

 

"Outplay should always be available, even at minute 0" sounds utopian, rather than a set rule.

 

TPG restrictions on RK/EX and scanner have shown that we can take a step toward it without sacrificing much. Just because you don't think outplay at minute zero is an achievable goal doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get close.

[comic_sans]

So what's the word?  Are we gonna try something, or are we gonna let perfect get in the way of good and scare the crap out of czero with an endless discussion?  All of these great points and terrifically insightful analyses are moot if we can't agree to try one thing, even if it's not exactly what fixes the problem.  Gimme a reason to come back and play for a bit, dammit!!

Edited by comic_sans, 11 August 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[Shade__]

So what's the word?  Are we gonna try something, or are we gonna let perfect get in the way of good and scare the crap out of czero with an endless discussion?  All of these great points and terrifically insightful analyses are moot if we can't agree to try one thing, even if it's not exactly what fixes the problem.  Gimme a reason to come back and play for a bit, dammit!!

i made a strawpoll http://www.strawpoll.me/10971068

[CounterlogicMan]

i made a strawpoll http://www.strawpoll.me/10971068

Voting in a straw poll is nice to visualize stances in this thread. Just remember that game development is not a democracy.

[comic_sans]

Voting in a straw poll is nice to visualize stances in this thread. Just remember that game development is not a democracy.

 

It's not, but I feel like a 4 page long thread with walls of text isn't exactly a community consensus, and we were asked our opinion, for once.  I think it'd be good to come to an agreement and present it to have the best chance of seeing something done.

Edited by comic_sans, 11 August 2016 - 01:36 PM.

[Shade__]

Voting in a straw poll is nice to visualize stances in this thread.

that was all i was trying to do get something easy on the eyes and to understand.

[HOHOHOSANTA]

I don't use orbs. :D and I turned out ok.

[HOHOHOSANTA]

Honestly this thread is nothing but lols. All you need is that xrosshair. Your mouse. Your keyboard. No internals needed. Or items.
THC did this before stopping practices and everyone still got the same results or better. Nobody did worse.

[_incitatus]

Honestly this thread is nothing but lols. All you need is that xrosshair. Your mouse. Your keyboard. No internals needed. Or items.
THC did this before stopping practices and everyone still got the same results or better. Nobody did worse.

Yeah, that was Crafty's imperative to us. Once you put internals and items back on after playing naked for a while, you feel stronk. For a guy with such a small.........














ego, he has some good ideas.

[StubbornPuppet]

The biggest problem with the online straw polls is that people can vote as many times as they want.  With nothing to prevent that, straw polls become nothing other than a competition to see which subset of people are more motivated to do anything it takes to prove their point.

 

Built in Forum Polls are far more reliable.

 

All online polls suffer from a skewing factor that practically invalidates them: human nature.  People who are angry about something will ALWAYS seek to share that anger.  They will go to extreme lengths to be heard and will seek anyone who is willing to join them in their cause.  People who are happy or content generally don't bother to seek any avenue to express that unless another party actively goes seeking them.

 

So, if there's a poll online, you can be sure that, just like a forum, the majority of the participants are pretty ticked off about something... even when they generally make up only a small minority.

Edited by StubbornPuppet, 12 August 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[comic_sans]

Either I'm blind or I'm unable to make a topic with a poll in it.

 

I really do not want to watch us bungle and forget about the first time we get asked for input and I'm kind of disappointed that the discussion ground to a halt after we tried to come to a consensus.  Do we at least agree on the three options in shade's straw poll?  I'll PM czero once I get back from errands to see if he can make a proper poll if so, since I assume mods can create poll topics if I can't.

[crockrocket]

 

I really do not want to watch us bungle and forget about the first time we get asked for input

 

RIP Josh

[comic_sans]

Seriously though, if nobody objects by the time I check this thread tomorrow, I'm going to PM czero with the request that a poll topic be made with the same options as shade's straw poll.

 

I was really hoping someone else would respond to me so I wouldn't feel like I'm wresting any of our meager decision making input/power from anyone else in this thread or the community in general; I hope this is not how my actions will be perceived.  I just want to see this brought to a conclusion.

 

We've certainly waited long enough.

[crockrocket]

Seriously though, if nobody objects by the time I check this thread tomorrow, I'm going to PM czero with the request that a poll topic be made with the same options as shade's straw poll.

I was really hoping someone else would respond to me so I wouldn't feel like I'm wresting any of our meager decision making input/power from anyone else in this thread or the community in general; I hope this is not how my actions will be perceived. I just want to see this brought to a conclusion.

We've certainly waited long enough.

Go for it, I think it's a good idea

[Flifang]

While I respect your opinion as an experienced player, it doesn't necessarily have new player experience in mind.

There has to be items and internals for variety and they wont always balance.
I'm also not just sitting back suggesting one item to disrupt orblording, I'm suggesting that we could reduce orblording internals AND also have this item which doesn't only target orblord. I have suggested numerous items previously to spice things up.

If not having the item was just as good as having it, then why would we go unlocking them?
The answer is each player equips the items that suit their playstyle or interrupt other players playstyle. Hello EMP. Lets go nerf EMP cos we hate getting hit by them?

I also think we need more AoE charges to be used in Siege and MA (and CTF!), both defensive an offensive.
That's where I see balance. Having a counter-strategy. I'll throw HC and even MC at it, which is good for the game at a different level.

If you think "I'm good because I carry Dets and speed internals. Scanner users suck" then other pilots will rage at you and equip any measure they can in order to spot you coming and increase their survivability. And they should be able to. If you hate getting scanned, then equip an internal that hides you from scanners while not actively generating heat, and sacrifice your speed/orbsucking internals.

I suggested a speed debuffing weapon and all the veterans cried that they didn't want to be robbed of their precious speed; so I suggested a Damper internal that can reduce debuffs from any source by n1%, n2%, n3% etc (including redox, bear mama heat, and speed reduction). Oh no, they now cant orblord or use AC (which are hated by other pilots).

I suggested an internal to reduce the duration of EMP/ISM too, but if you don't like EMPs enough to equip it then you have to give up something else. Perhaps even get duplicate mechs with different loadouts (more revenue for RLD). Anti-scanner (3 slot) and Damper II (3 slot) could be the build for someone that hates the Scanner/EMP prevalence. It gives them their independence to flank and perhaps point blank EMP another player knowing they will get their weapons back sooner (unless the other guy has Damper III!).

I like a game of compromises, not necessarily balance. Have items/internals/abilities that cause other players to actively seek out ways to counter it. The game stays interesting and will more often get new content than nitpicking over perfect balance. Comp players are organised enough to ban items if they are too OP for comp.

In a game where new pilots are thrown in with veterans, you need to give the fresh pilots benefit of the doubt or they'll leave forever. No fresh pilots means no upcoming mid-high tier. When we have a high enough population, then we can talk about rebalancing everything. Except PN-223 Reloaded. You can balance that now :)

Dunno how long you have been playing, but back in the good ol' days there were these things you could purchase aside from items and internals. They were called counter measures. There was one for overheating, Emp, and one other thing I cannot recall.

 

They were consumable items that were purchasable with money that dampened the effect of the things I listed. As far as I know nobody used them. Now they're gone. My guess is either the decision was made that they dumb down gameplay, were removed due to a severe lack of people actually buying them, or it was one of the data things that got broked'ed like the old cockpit visuals at one point and they never bothered to re-create/re-implement them.

 

Either way I don't expect them to return in any way shape or form because they were completely unnecessary if any player knew how to dodge emps and manage their heat properly.

[Silverfire]

I just checked the descriptions on the countermeasures: 

 

If you had a countermeasure equipped, it would immediately counteract the negative effect, your overheat, or being EMP'd, etc.  They were purchasable for real money and the anti-EMP would just negate the effects and the anti-overheat worked like an Assault's ability, but for any mech more or less, from what I remember.

 

I always figured they were removed because they were dumb countermeasures.  They offered a direct bandaid to paying players who overheated or got EMP'd, and that was a poor design decision that ADH realized and corrected by moving countermeasures to coop mode where they have zero effect on PvP which was the issue.

Edited by Silverfire, 19 August 2016 - 10:04 PM.

[6ixxer]

countermeasures sound like they didn't come with a compromise. That is very pay-to-win. My suggestion is that you can have a mech in your garage that has anti-debuff, anti-scanner or anti-EMP, etc internals which means you can't carry orblord or other internals. also you would be able to get them with in game currency.

Its the kind of thing you pull out when the enemy goes heavy on those attacks.
I've only recently started doubling upon mechs in my garage to have an alternate loadout.

[ThatDamnedBoedy]

This would help only partially, because the orblord would still be the strongest loadout by a considerable margin. To further alleviate this, you should make it impossible to heal from several orbs simultaneously.

 

A more fun approach would be to make orbs explode upon shooting them (akin to Pred's mines). But I'm not sure about this one.

 

it would be fun I'll admit.  Also maybe its just me but I have more issues with the scout and the infinitely hovering berserker than a giant easily shootable mech...but maybe that's just me.

[Shade__]

it would be fun I'll admit.  Also maybe its just me but I have more issues with the scout and the infinitely hovering berserker than a giant easily shootable mech...but maybe that's just me.

scout + orblord + orbdancing = your best worst nightmare

[moosa17]

The only thing that needs to happen is removing the repair kit repair charge.

We can already repair from fallen enemies, from several internals, a friendly tech, or (in all cases) repair anywhere at any time with some risk with repair drones. Repair charge orbs are clearly redundant, and beyond that, are the only thing that doesn't require anything upfront and has no risk. Hence the whole reason why the orblording meta is OP.

Healing from fallen mech drops is in no way an issue. Even with full orblord internals, that would only be effective very situationally, which is not OP. The repair charge is the problem because it removes the situationality. Even without the internals the kit removes the situationality of the orbs and is too easily abused. 

Forget the internals. If you're in a 1 on 1 situation, someone can hide behind cover and pop an orb out to repair with no effort and no risk. You can't punish it because there's nothing to punish. The only way to match that advantage is to have a repair kit installed yourself. That is a very clearly defined recipe for OP.

Edited by moosa17, 26 September 2016 - 08:16 AM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

The only thing that needs to happen is removing the repair kit.

 

 Repair kit orbs are clearly redundant, and beyond that, are the only thing that doesn't require anything upfront and has no risk.

 

Are you confusing the repair orb item with the repair kit internal?

[TheButtSatisfier]

Forget the internals. If you're in a 1 on 1 situation, someone can hide behind cover and pop an orb out to repair with no effort and no risk. You can't punish it because there's nothing to punish. The only way to match that advantage is to have a repair kit installed yourself. That is a very clearly defined recipe for OP.

 

Effort and risk are poor measures of the efficacy of keeping orbs as an item in this game. I believe it's more useful to gauge that by analyzing the tradeoffs of equipping orbs over another item. If I choose to slot orbs, then that's fewer slots I can use for EMPs or detonators. I feel like that's in a very good place right now because I'm still constantly rotating my loadouts between those three items, and I still can't settle on what my ideal item loadout is. To me, that's a sign that the orb as an item is exactly where it needs to be, and they are not the primary issue in orblording. The internals that increases the efficacy of the orbs themselves is where the issue is, and that point has been effectively made multiple time in this thread already.

 

To put it a different way: right now the extractor and the repair kit internals are the only internals that interact with items. No other internal increases the detonation radius of an EMP, or increases the damage output of a detonator, or increases the hitpoints of a shield. If such internals did exist, then we'd be having discussions about EMPlording or shieldlording or detlording or whatever.

 

The internals are the issue here. While some items still need tweaking to be on the level of EMPs and orbs and dets (scrambler, MG turret, heat charge), those are only small values that need to be edited.

 

Getting rid of orbs as an item is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

Edit: I also think it's worth pointing out that anyone who thinks that orbs require zero skill to use probably isn't getting the most out of them. Additionally, the risk of using an orb should be obvious: now you have a cooldown where you can't use another item. I can't count the times where I've used an orb and then immediately regretted it because I should have used an EMP or shield instead. And now I'm dead, and the dude who killed me is sitting on my death orb and my item orb. That's risk. That mechanic creates additional compelling gameplay opportunities, and getting rid of orbs as an item would remove those unique opportunities for people to exploit (or prevent - if I don't throw down an orb when I'm positive I'll die, then I'm not giving an opponent a freebie).

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 25 September 2016 - 11:09 AM.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

the countermeasures was pretty expensive but you could buy with HC after each round and still have some HC to profit, i used to use anti emp on my HP tuned orblord hawkins brawler in turret mode and sweep up entire teams at once

 

edit: just thinking of a counter to an orblord spammer today, i find spamming back heat charges on an incin+mama to be effective if you get in there and overheat people, buttslam everyone repeatedly thanks to heat charges, syphon hp from the enemies orbs while your recharging heat from heat charges so your gaining hp, dealing heat, absorbing heat for buttslam and massive aoe every few seconds its chaotic fun in the incin

Edited by MechFighter5e3bf9, 25 September 2016 - 08:57 AM.