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Feedback Requested: Orblording Changes

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#1
CZeroFive

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Hi folks,

 

I am looking to see opinions about a proposed change to the infamous 'orblording' mechanic.

 

The change is as follows:

 

What if, when you stood in the 'orb', it drained the 'orb' while standing on top of it, even if you are full armor? This would mean the orb would still heal you while it exists in the game world. This would help curb the benefit from multiple orbs in the same location, as they would be constantly be draining while standing in them.  This change would also give some incentive to move around instead of 'tanking' hits from inside the orb, as to not drain the orb's power.

 

As a note, all other mechanics surrounding the orb, including the health recovery rate, drain rate with multiple players touching the orb, and other related mechanics would still apply.

 

It seems like a simplistic change that would reduce the effectiveness of 'orblording'. What are your thoughts?

 

I am leaving this thread open for feedback. Please keep it civil, constructive, and on topic. I would be interested in hearing your opinions.


Edited by CZeroFive, 27 July 2016 - 10:51 PM.

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#2
DerMax

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This would help only partially, because the orblord would still be the strongest loadout by a considerable margin. To further alleviate this, you should make it impossible to heal from several orbs simultaneously.

 

A more fun approach would be to make orbs explode upon shooting them (akin to Pred's mines). But I'm not sure about this one.


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#3
Shade__

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A more fun approach would be to make orbs explode upon shooting them (akin to Pred's mines). But I'm not sure about this one.

it would also be very satisfying to kill an orblord by shooting its orb.... ALSO OMGWTFBBQ THE DEVS ARE HERE TO SAVE THE DAYYYYYYYY THANK YOU SO MUCH!


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#4
dorobo

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you would have to look around before comin close to them orbs but quadra/penta kills would be so much easier to achieve when people pile up and start dropping



#5
DemitronPrime

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I will state... in joshy fashion....

 

Im open to it


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#6
Neraste

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I would say let's try on in a subset of servers for a certain amount of time.


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#7
Guns_N_Rozer

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how about reduce the orb health like 40 or 50 HP instead of 120HP ? or on death there will be no more orb .or slow down the health regeneration rate .like 3x slow down .or better remove the orb lord internal  



#8
CZeroFive

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To further alleviate this, you should make it impossible to heal from several orbs simultaneously.

 

The issue we've found with orblording is actually a dual part issue - the issue is with two orbs at once resulting in double the amount of healing per second, and the other issue is the sustainability of the orbs themselves. If you are constantly draining 2-3 orbs under the old system, you are actually hitting max health more often than not, and are stationary and practically invincible by sitting in one place and you only drain the orbs 'as-needed'.

 

Overall the issue is not the healing per second (the mech that has the 'orblording config' has to be viable, as you sacrifice other functionality to get the 'orblording'), it's the amount of total healing that happens over a prolonged period of time. With all orbs constantly draining the maximum transfer rate of the orb, which is 40 armor/second base rates at the time of writing on XB1/PS4, you actually decrease the total healing potential of the orb over a sustained period of time, which 'orblording' exploits in a way.

 

At any rate, thanks for the feedback and I would love to hear more constructive criticism and ideas :)


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#9
DerMax

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The issue we've found with orblording is actually a dual part issue - the issue is with two orbs at once resulting in double the amount of healing per second, and the other issue is the sustainability of the orbs themselves. If you are constantly draining 2-3 orbs under the old system, you are actually hitting max health more often than not, and are stationary and practically invincible by sitting in one place and you only drain the orbs 'as-needed'.

 

Overall the issue is not the healing per second (the mech that has the 'orblording config' has to be viable, as you sacrifice other functionality to get the 'orblording'), it's the amount of total healing that happens over a prolonged period of time. With all orbs constantly draining the maximum transfer rate of the orb, which is 40 armor/second base rates at the time of writing on XB1/PS4, you actually decrease the total healing potential of the orb over a sustained period of time, which 'orblording' exploits in a way.

 

At any rate, thanks for the feedback and I would love to hear more constructive criticism and ideas :)

Competent players will know to jump off the orbs at close-to-full hp, only to jump back after receiving damage. The solution proposed in the original post does not make much of a difference to the existing situation, in my opinion.



#10
nepacaka

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I would love to hear more constructive criticism and ideas

 

- add to orb platform a 140-150 HP (i mean, this round disk under orb item. make it destructible, like MG-turrets)
- allow EMP deactivate orb platform to 4-5 sec (orb not destroyed, but continue healing only after emp effect off, the same like blockades)

make items more interaction between each other. also.

- make blockade not penetrated but breacher, and immune to damage in "blue wall". the player has to shoot into blockade's pedestal to destroy it, not in generated wall.

- do something with ISM (my persomal idea, add -5% or -10% armor debuff for enemy while he under ISM effect)

- allow hollogram looking and turning to nearly players. let it simulates the shooting in you as a nubs or bots

- buff HE :P

 


Edited by nepacaka, 28 July 2016 - 12:29 AM.

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#11
Chickin

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Perhaps tune the orb to gradually loose HP, immediately after the deployment/death.

Also, right now it lives for ~25 sec. How about 5sec?


Edited by Chickin, 28 July 2016 - 01:07 AM.

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#12
6ixxer

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If you absorb it regardless of being at full health, at least introduce it at a low rate.
Previous Devs have over-nerfed things before.

Regardless of changes to the repair-charge itself, I'd still like to see an AoE anti-repair charge (partly why I don't want your proposed change to be too big a nerf in itself). Similar to a heat-charge but it neutralizes any repair orbs/charges in its radius and if you try to repair yourself or tech-repair someone in the zone it is at a slower rate. This would provide a strategy against orb-lording and also against pocket tech and AA defenders.
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#13
Merl61

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Ok. "Orblording" in any form should not be a thing. Period. Mechs should not be able to be tuned to get any kind of increased health. HP is king. Any mech that can have more effective HP than it should will be op. That is why on PC orblording is banned in competitive play. The essence of the issue is the HP gain. Not the stacking. Remove orbs because they will always be broken. 

 

Radical statement above aside, here's a more moderate solution. 1. Remove orb stacking, but keep functionality the same. 2. Change the base HP gain of all orbs to something like 80-100. This would allow "orblording" to still be a thing while bringing it at least somewhat in line with other viable item builds. 


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#14
Merl61

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The issue we've found with orblording is actually a dual part issue - the issue is with two orbs at once resulting in double the amount of healing per second, and the other issue is the sustainability of the orbs themselves. If you are constantly draining 2-3 orbs under the old system, you are actually hitting max health more often than not, and are stationary and practically invincible by sitting in one place and you only drain the orbs 'as-needed'.

 

Overall the issue is not the healing per second (the mech that has the 'orblording config' has to be viable, as you sacrifice other functionality to get the 'orblording'), it's the amount of total healing that happens over a prolonged period of time. With all orbs constantly draining the maximum transfer rate of the orb, which is 40 armor/second base rates at the time of writing on XB1/PS4, you actually decrease the total healing potential of the orb over a sustained period of time, which 'orblording' exploits in a way.

 

At any rate, thanks for the feedback and I would love to hear more constructive criticism and ideas :)

It sounds like to me that you guys found a solution and know how to code it easily so you're trying to win the community over by pretending to listen to our suggestions and then you're going to implement what you originally put forward. (which isn't terrible, but it isn't the best solution either)


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#15
CounterlogicMan

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I read it as this. Currently, 40 hp/s is what the orbs provide. They are only depleted if the player(s) can recieve health. With the proposed change the orbs would always be reduced by 40 hp/s regardless of if the player can receive health or not. That means a brawler, for example, standing on 3 orbs would reduce all 3 orbs at 40 hp/s respectively regardless of if it is damaged or not. This in effect would drastically reduce the effectiveness of the orbs at higher hp. It would also mean that if there are 3 orbs in proximity. The terms on which they all got there will dictate how much starting hp they have available.
 

If I read it correctly, I think the idea of adding a wastage mechanic, as you are suggesting, would work. Or at least be a good starting point.

 

Here is my reasoning for agreeing. If a player is doing what dermax said and jumping off the orbs at near high health to avoid wasting the orb. Then jumping back on once they have taken damage to make sure they are using it all efficiently. Is that not skillful/tactical movement? If they do not time it right they will waste the orb. If the enemy gets on the orb, full health or not, they will use part of the orb. I think that is the real important part here.

 

Other players will be able to negate the effectiveness of someone orblording in other ways than just shooting the guy orblording, or taking damage then jumping on the orb. Both options benefiting the orblorder who already has the high ground, or orb ground, so to speak. It will also mean that any teammates  passing by the orbs, even momentarily, will decrease the health available from the orb. It would no longer be so simple as just finding 2 dead mechs, or 1 dead mech then throwing your orb on it. Then proceed to just dance around on it. The change you propose in my mind puts a ticking clock on the effectiveness of a set of orbs. I really like that and think it will significantly reduce the effectiveness of orblording as a "easy/cheesy" strat and instead make it a calculated strategy that is more effective on certain mechs.

 

TL:DR - I think it would be a nice change.

 

P.S. Thanks for asking!


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 28 July 2016 - 02:06 AM.

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#16
Kopra

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The proposed change of draining orbs does very little to address the almost instant, no aiming required and crutch-like, tactical advantage given by the orblord setup. Sure, it specifically addresses sitting on the orb at full armor, there is just a loophole around it: you would just have people avoid sitting on it, instead sitting right next to it and stepping into the orb when taking damage to avoid wasteful drainage.

 

The proposed change does not address the way how the orb is used in combat to effectively gain a huge effective armor advantage. If you balance the game by small armor differences like some mechs having 355 armor and other having 320 armor and one is being seen as squishy and the other as having "too much armor" (at a 35 armor difference), what do you think happens when you introduce an item that gives 170 armor over a short duration?

 

Just gut the in-combat healing gained by the orb and especially multiple orbs (make it only repair at the rate of a single orb). Why?

 

Almost every healing mechanic in the game is affected by shooting the healing target. Healing gained by 'C' gets interrupted for a short time after taking damage, Technician's beam's healing becomes weaker for a short time if the patient takes damage and the self-healing from the vamp beam becomes weaker if you take damage, Brawler turret mode's healing drops considerably for a short time after taking damage. Reconstructors get interrupted by taking (and annoyingly, dealing) damage.

 

This does not apply to the Repair Orb or Armor Fusor. While the Armor Fusor effect is powerful on mechs that have a lot of armor, extending their longevity, it does not let them survive through high DPS or let them to heal to full in a few seconds from near-death (at least on the PC version with healing divided over 20 seconds). The Repair Orb, even with its 2 second delay upon throwing, gives a considerable boost on surviving while in combat, being comparable to a Technician heal beam. Even more so with internals that almost double the healing per second, making it more unlikely to die while the orb is actively healing or with multiple orbs that multiply the effect even more. Even the Green Beam does not heal as effectively as internal boosted multiple orbs that let you survive an attack even if you had dropped to a low armor state.

 

If you gut the in-combat healing by the orb to say, 15 armor/second base value (still affected by internals) for 2 seconds after taking damage, you could still boost that to 28.275 armor/second (for 1.885 modifier I assume with +45% Adv. Extractor and +30% Adv. Repair Kit). After a 60% damage reduction, a Vanguard in turret mode could effectively reduce incoming DPS by ~70, not counting flankers and splash weapons (especially TOW and GL), it'd still provide somewhat of a boost to the current Vanguard, but not over the top, and certainly something you wouldn't try in every scenario (one trick ponies suck).

 

Outside of the Vanguard example, the orblord kit would mostly be useful for quick repairs out of combat near the frontline. A Brawler (another orblord kit user) could throw out an orb behind cover while waiting to cool off weapons, extracting the orb out by the time the weapons are completely cooled off.

 

The repair orb would still be effective out of combat. Just like every other form of healing. It would still make repairs faster, let you repair decent amounts of armor while having access to the radar. Dropping an orb on top of a death orb for extra 290-377 effective armor should not be the grand strategy in open combat.


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#17
DerMax

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It sounds like to me that you guys found a solution and know how to code it easily so you're trying to win the community over by pretending to listen to our suggestions and then you're going to implement what you originally put forward. (which isn't terrible, but it isn't the best solution either)

I have the same impression.



#18
CounterlogicMan

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After more thought and deliberation with members of the high tier cabal and the circle of several sabot.

 

Proposed dev changes are a definite possible step in the right direction that is welcomed but doesn't address the root problem of C classes running orblord being able to sustain extreme amounts of damage due to the extraction rate (core problem). This in the opinion of myself and others makes other setups, on c classes in particular, not viable in comparison due to the extreme power of orblord. 

 

However:

 

The problem really came down to C classes being the main issue when it comes to orb lording. A classes and B classes simply don't have the same survival potential when orblording. The base hp advantage coupled with the reality of how orb lording is employed by coordinated, or aware, teams/pub players means that the vast majority of C classes don't have another viable build aside from orb lording. Especially in game modes with death orbs.

 

The example that kept coming up in our discussion was that one of the main strategies in defending a position, the example used was s2/s3 on wreckage, was to have 2 orb lord c class sitting at obvious entrances. Then have them and teammates throw orbs down at their feet just as the enemy started to push in. The 2 C classes would absorb all of, or most of the damage, and live or die. Regardless they will have blunted the enemy attack and/or served as anchor points/distractions long enough for the damage to be done to the enemy. The proposed dev changes would not change the situation because the C classes would not likely be at full health at any point during the engagement but would still enjoy the unchanged hp per second of the orbs. The wastage from the orbs going to full health mechs would be minimal.

 
Did some brain storming and so far have come up with these.

 

An added set of possible changes to accompany the proposed dev change, which I think might help with the root problem:

 

1st possible addition/alternative: Change the base rate of extraction to be lower for orbs. This might help the core issue in competitive play of C classes being able to tank incredible amounts of damage without dying in a short amount of time. While at the same time eliminating the need to change the stats of the repair kit or extractor internal.

 

2nd (which I am biased towards): Significantly increase the radius at which orbs are absorbed in addition to the proposed change by Czero. This would require the players employing any tactic similar to the one described above, involving the 2 c calsses as anchor points for orbs, to further isolate the C classes in order to make sure they are at their peak efficiency while under fire. It would potentially make orbs in general less effective anchors because it would be easier to steal, or waste, their hp. Currently with the orbs very small extraction radius, it is quite risky to try and steal orb health from a C class. For one, you have to take damage; two, you have to get into face hug range with the damn thing; third, you are potentially body blocking your teammates shots while also exposing yourself to enemies. If the radius was larger and you could steal without taking as much damage, or blocking teammates shots, making it less risky to steal/waste the orb(s). While at the same time introduce a little more practical risk to the orblord who would have to worry much more about where to place the orbs for risk of it/them being siphoned by teammates or enemies.

 

At the end of the day. I think that the health orb in its current state as an item is a huge problem. There is really no reason a skilled player that wants to win would take any other item in its place.

 

Sorry for bad spelling/grammar. Post written at 6 am.


Edited by CounterlogicMan, 28 July 2016 - 03:22 AM.

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#19
ATX22

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Could boost the dmg taken while healing from an orb, similar to when you self repair.
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#20
dorobo

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Get rid of the orbs VS get rid of the tech?



#21
ARCH3TYP3

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I'm happy to see the devs communicating with, and asking for feedback from, the players.
Thanks devs.

Personally, I honestly do not have enough experience to weigh in, but I would like to say that I trust the experienced players, your opinions, and your ability to come to a consensus to be offered to the devs.
Thank you.

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#22
DerMax

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2nd (which I am biased towards): Significantly increase the radius at which orbs are absorbed in addition to the proposed change by Czero. This would require the players employing any tactic similar to the one described above, involving the 2 c calsses as anchor points for orbs, to further isolate the C classes in order to make sure they are at their peak efficiency while under fire. It would potentially make orbs in general less effective anchors because it would be easier to steal, or waste, their hp. Currently with the orbs very small extraction radius, it is quite risky to try and steal orb health from a C class. For one, you have to take damage; two, you have to get into face hug range with the damn thing; third, you are potentially body blocking your teammates shots while also exposing yourself to enemies. If the radius was larger and you could steal without taking as much damage, or blocking teammates shots, making it less risky to steal/waste the orb(s). While at the same time introduce a little more practical risk to the orblord who would have to worry much more about where to place the orbs for risk of it/them being siphoned by teammates or enemies.

I don't understand how this fixes anything. As the orblorder, I'd just place my orbs differently, further away from the enemy's attack direction. Besides, how big do you want the radius to be? Even if it becomes comparable to the EMP radius, that's still CQC you're getting into�with a 900 hp monster with Flak and TOW.


Edited by DerMax, 28 July 2016 - 03:58 AM.


#23
Nept

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After more thought and deliberation with members of the high tier cabal and the circle of several sabot.

 

Proposed dev changes are a definite possible step in the right direction that is welcomed but doesn't address the root problem of C classes running orblord being able to sustain extreme amounts of damage due to the extraction rate (core problem). This in the opinion of myself and others makes other setups, on c classes in particular, not viable in comparison due to the extreme power of orblord. 

 

However:

 

The problem really came down to C classes being the main issue when it comes to orb lording. A classes and B classes simply don't have the same survival potential when orblording. The base hp advantage coupled with the reality of how orb lording is employed by coordinated, or aware, teams/pub players means that the vast majority of C classes don't have another viable build aside from orb lording. Especially in game modes with death orbs.

 

The example that kept coming up in our discussion was that one of the main strategies in defending a position, the example used was s2/s3 on wreckage, was to have 2 orb lord c class sitting at obvious entrances. Then have them and teammates throw orbs down at their feet just as the enemy started to push in. The 2 C classes would absorb all of, or most of the damage, and live or die. Regardless they will have blunted the enemy attack and/or served as anchor points/distractions long enough for the damage to be done to the enemy. The proposed dev changes would not change the situation because the C classes would not likely be at full health at any point during the engagement but would still enjoy the unchanged hp per second of the orbs. The wastage from the orbs going to full health mechs would be minimal.

 
Did some brain storming and so far have come up with these.

 

An added set of possible changes to accompany the proposed dev change, which I think might help with the root problem:

 

1st possible addition/alternative: Change the base rate of extraction to be lower for orbs. This might help the core issue in competitive play of C classes being able to tank incredible amounts of damage without dying in a short amount of time. While at the same time eliminating the need to change the stats of the repair kit or extractor internal.

 

Nept is awesome.

 

For the record, I agree with everything I've quoted, but I don't love the second alternative/addition.  AOE rebalancing often affects gameplay aspects beyond what's immediately obvious.


Edited by Nept, 28 July 2016 - 04:15 AM.


#24
JesusHatesWisc

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The problem really came down to C classes being the main issue when it comes to orb lording. A classes and B classes simply don't have the same survival potential when orblording. The base hp advantage coupled with the reality of how orb lording is employed by coordinated, or aware, teams/pub players means that the vast majority of C classes don't have another viable build aside from orb lording. Especially in game modes with death orbs.

 

Anybody have video of a scout DM orb orgy where you can dodge back and forth over a bunch of orbs with any combination of extractor, RK, deflectors and fuel coverter and fuzzy bunny on anybody you please?

 

This would be the one exemption to where the depletion mechanic would have no change.   There should be video from TPG S1-S2 times where Merl, Cluster, hestoned, Dave, or even me (to scrubbier players) dancing back and forth with a scout/infil/zerker on a group of orbs.  You can tank damage from multiple people and fuzzy bunny on people much better than you.  All while not sitting on an orb at anything near full health.


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#25
Morticius

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or just limit the amount of hp repair to the equivalent value of the transfer rate of a single orb.  or, no matter how many orbs you're sitting on, your repair rate is locked to one orb at a time.  eliminates the jumping into a pile of corpse orbs and/or golden globes and having near-instantaneous full health.  this has been suggested several times in the past.  :wallbash:


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#26
Hyginos

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Repair kit, per its description in game, should give you only more heals per orb and not increase the rate at which orbs heal you. Right now an advanced repair kit will give you 25% more armor from a repair charge, but it will give it to you in the same amount of time as if you had nothing, effectively increasing the rate at which you pick up the orb by 25%. Start by fixing that.

 

The proposed solution does not fix the issue of a mech being functionally invincible with a full orb build while it is standing on 2+ orbs. In my opinion, taking damage should prevent a mech from getting any heals from orbs at all for about 500-1000 ms, much like it stops healing while a mech is repairing. Literally just re-use the code that makes a mech stop healing for a second when it takes damage in repair mode.

 

What this would do is make orb related internals purely a re-engagement tool and destroy their combat functionality. This means that an orb build will be weaker in an open 1v1 against something like a deflectors/fuel converter build, but will be stronger in very defensive corner play. Coupled with the repair kit fix mentioned above I think that would go a long way toward bringing full on orb-tard builds in line with other options.

 

EDIT:

Watch how dumb this fight is. Fix repair kit please.

 

EDIT 2:

Here is a thread where some of this was discussed in the past.


Edited by Hyginos, 28 July 2016 - 06:26 AM.

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#27
harmless_kittens

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Remove Tech.  Problem solved.  


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#28
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The proposed solution does not fix the issue of a mech being functionally invincible with a full orb build while it is standing on 2+ orbs. In my opinion, taking damage should prevent a mech from getting any heals from orbs at all for about 500-1000 ms, much like it stops healing while a mech is repairing. Literally just re-use the code that makes a mech stop healing for a second when it takes damage in repair mode.

th other options.. Fix repair kit please.

Does this resonate with anyone else? It does for me, in my (limited) experience.
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#29
DerMax

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Does this resonate with anyone else? It does for me, in my (limited) experience.

I think this is the best suggestion so far.


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#30
Dr_Freeze001

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Reconstructors get interrupted by taking (and annoyingly, dealing) damage.
 
This does not apply to the Repair Orb or Armor Fusor.

 

 

Sounds like a solution to me: make orblord internals inactive  when being shot at, reactivate then when 10 sec out of battle.

 

Also, yes:

 

 

The proposed solution does not fix the issue of a mech being functionally invincible with a full orb build while it is standing on 2+ orbs. In my opinion, taking damage should prevent a mech from getting any heals from orbs at all for about 500-1000 ms, much like it stops healing while a mech is repairing. Literally just re-use the code that makes a mech stop healing for a second when it takes damage in repair mode.

 

 


Edited by (KDR) Dr_Freeze001, 28 July 2016 - 06:03 AM.

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#31
Amidatelion

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I appreciate that you are getting around to fixing the problem, CZeroFive.

 

But please consider reading up on the detailed analysis provided multiple times by several dozen community members about what the problem actually is. For example:

 

 

Repair kit, per its description in game, should give you only more heals per orb and not increase the rate at which orbs heal you. Right now an advanced repair kit will give you 25% more armor from a repair charge, but it will give it to you in the same amount of time as if you had nothing, effectively increasing the rate at which you pick up the orb by 25%. Start by fixing that.

 

...

 

EDIT:

Watch how dumb this fight is. Fix repair kit please.

 

 

The problem you have identified and the solution that you have suggested is limited by your inexperience with actual play. Example:

 

 

The issue we've found with orblording is actually a dual part issue - the issue is with two orbs at once resulting in double the amount of healing per second, and the other issue is the sustainability of the orbs themselves. If you are constantly draining 2-3 orbs under the old system, you are actually hitting max health more often than not, and are stationary and practically invincible by sitting in one place and you only drain the orbs 'as-needed'.

 

Overall the issue is not the healing per second (the mech that has the 'orblording config' has to be viable, as you sacrifice other functionality to get the 'orblording'), it's the amount of total healing that happens over a prolonged period of time. With all orbs constantly draining the maximum transfer rate of the orb, which is 40 armor/second base rates at the time of writing on XB1/PS4, you actually decrease the total healing potential of the orb over a sustained period of time, which 'orblording' exploits in a way.

 

 

This is tangential to the core problem and in many ways wrong. To begin with, there is no mech on which orblord is not the optimal build. You do not sacrifice functionality, except arguably the air compressor. The Rocketeer and Berserker, the mechs that need AC more than ANY OTHERS benefit more from orblord than air compressor, deflectors and fuel converter, their next-most optimal build. Furthermore, no one even marginally competent just stands on an orb unless they are taunting their opponent. They are moving between multiples, providing a moving target and adjusting their positioning. Orblord outside of combat where you can hit your max HP is a side issue to the fact that in combat a mech can lose beyond its max HP and heal all of it back at no cost. This is how orblorded Scouts beat unorbed mechs. They're never going to be at max HP, but the opposing mech is extremely unlikely to out-DPS the orblord.

 

Orblord is the intersection of 3 problems:

  1. Deployed item orbs have roughly twice the health of death orbs.
  2. Extractor speeds the rate at which health (and tangentially, EU) is collected from orbs
  3. Repair kit increases the total amount of health which can be collected.

The broken characteristics of orblord arise out of all three of these. Your proposed solution in no way addresses these intersecting, compounding flaws.

 

Fixes that have been been previously proposed:

  1. Reduce item orb HP to death orb HP
  2. Remove orb stacking
  3. Have orbs dispense HP constantly, regardless of the existence of repairable mechs nearby, reducing their total lifetime.
  4. Use the same mechanic that the Tech has, slowing healing from orbs while "in combat."
  5. Split the healing rate of an orb between two mechs ala EU stations
  6. Nerf the percentages across the board on all extractors and repair kits 

Why #6 is not your go-to solution is almost beyond me. I understand a reluctance to implement ham-handed, outright nerfs in a general design sense and the idea that you don't want to remove a tactical option from the table, but this is one of the few instances in any game I can think of where this sort of mend-it-with-a-hammer approach would be universally vocally welcomed. We have been banging on about this for two years now and any solution that addressed the core problems are welcome. 

 

Thanks for your time and consideration.


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#32
CraftyDus

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The cap to orb absorb time in the way c05 described will be a welcome alteration.

In conjuction with a repair kit nerf as described by Hyginos this would be a good adjustment, while keeping the orb lord crutch intact for those that cannot do without it.

Ship it.


Edited by CraftyDus, 28 July 2016 - 06:37 AM.

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#33
Nept

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I appreciate that you are getting around to fixing the problem, CZeroFive.

 

But please consider reading up on the detailed analysis provided multiple times by several dozen community members about what the problem actually is. For example:

 

The problem you have identified and the solution that you have suggested is limited by your inexperience with actual play. Example:

 

This is tangential to the core problem and in many ways wrong. To begin with, there is no mech on which orblord is not the optimal build. You do not sacrifice functionality, except arguably the air compressor. The Rocketeer and Berserker, the mechs that need AC more than ANY OTHERS benefit more from orblord than air compressor, deflectors and fuel converter, their next-most optimal build. Furthermore, no one even marginally competent just stands on an orb unless they are taunting their opponent. They are moving between multiples, providing a moving target and adjusting their positioning. Orblord outside of combat where you can hit your max HP is a side issue to the fact that in combat a mech can lose beyond its max HP and heal all of it back at no cost. This is how orblorded Scouts beat unorbed mechs. They're never going to be at max HP, but the opposing mech is extremely unlikely to out-DPS the orblord.

 

I liked your post!  Suppose it's worth noting our reasoning behind TPG's orblord internals ban:

 

Updated Restrictions: the Basic Extractor, Extractor, Repair Kit, and Advanced Repair Kit internals are now banned.  Our intent is to curtail "Orb Lording" without entirely removing Repair Charges and their impact on gameplay.  In our opinion, orb lording upsets class balance, heavily discourages evasive movement, and presents players an obvious "best build" for almost any situation or mech.

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#34
_incitatus

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Don't allow us to equip Repair Kits and Extractors together.  Remove this combo where it exists in Howken.

 

Cap the absorption rate such that it is always equal to standing on one orb even though you may be standing on three, but pull health out of all the orbs you are standing on at the same reduced rate.  Basically heal longer, not faster.  Perhaps reduce orb life such that you wouldn't be able to absorb all three orbs before they expired.

 

If the orbs kept healing at full HP, teammates could drain orbs unintentionally and enemy orbs could be soaked up by sitting on them.  Not sure if that is desirable game play.

 

I don't feel the problem is with the orbs so much as stacking the orblord internals.


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#35
devotion

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remove the extractor internal altogether, decrease the total health/base rate of healing on orb by like a third, delete 2 slot repair kit, nerf 3 slot repair kit, prevent orbs from stacking

 

draining orbs at full hp is unintuitive imo


Edited by devotion, 04 August 2016 - 01:05 AM.


#36
-Tj-

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or just limit the amount of hp repair to the equivalent value of the transfer rate of a single orb.


This is the one I was going to suggest. Just divide the rate of healing by the number of orbs being absorbed.

#37
TheButtSatisfier

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draining orbs at full hp is unintuitive imo

 

I agree. As Hyginos proposed, It's far more intuitive to have orb healing halt for ~500ms upon receiving damage, because that's a mechanic that's already present with mech self-healing.

 

For the sake of trying to explore other consequences of such a change, I imagine that would neuter the efficacy of orbs in an open DM, especially if a mech is receiving sustained damage. This would effectively reduce the average TTK of mechs in any given match. It would also disproportionately affect the Howken Brawler, which currently has an orblord internal loadout. Maybe that could be addressed by replacing the current Brawler special ability yawnfest with an ability that would remove the orb healing interrupt for X amount of seconds. That way, a Brawler could waddle into battle, throw down an orb, and hit the ability to still capitalize on its build in combat.


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#38
CZeroFive

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Thanks for the feedback, folks - and thanks for keeping it constructive. We'll evaluate all of the suggestions, especially the suggestion regarding internal changes, that is really well thought out and we will keep in mind that we may have to tweak that internal.

 

I'll be checking in on this thread periodically, please continue the discussion.


Edited by CZeroFive, 28 July 2016 - 08:40 AM.

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#39
StubbornPuppet

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The change is as follows:

 

What if, when you stood in the 'orb', it drained the 'orb' while standing on top of it, even if you are full armor? This would mean the orb would still heal you while it exists in the game world. This would help curb the benefit from multiple orbs in the same location, as they would be constantly be draining while standing in them.  This change would also give some incentive to move around instead of 'tanking' hits from inside the orb, as to not drain the orb's power.

 

As a note, all other mechanics surrounding the orb, including the health recovery rate, drain rate with multiple players touching the orb, and other related mechanics would still apply.

 

It seems like a simplistic change that would reduce the effectiveness of 'orblording'. What are your thoughts?

 

I am leaving this thread open for feedback. Please keep it civil, constructive, and on topic. I would be interested in hearing your opinions.

 

A problem I see with having them constantly draining when in contact with a mech is that it damages the concept of throwing an orb for other teammates to use.  I like to throw orbs down in places that I know my teammates will benefit from passing over them while trying to hold an objective like the AA.  Most of these places are choke-points or corners, so having them drain anytime someone steps on them would really waste them.

 

Now, I can see where the argument could be made that "players will need to be more thoughtful of where they walk"... but I'm just not sure this is a mechanic I would want to change that way.

 

Perhaps the approach I would take is two-fold:

1. Adjust orbs so that they can only be deployed 1 at a time per player - where, even if your cool-down timer for deploying an orb has run out, you cannot deploy another if the first one is still existing.  This would force a player to be very thoughtful of where and when they deploy them, because if they run off from where they put one before it is drained or disappears, they'd have to find it and drain it... or wait for it to vanish before they could use another.

 

2. IF you're going to make them constantly drain, even when at full health, while being stood on - make it so that only happens to the person who deployed the orb.  That way, other players won't ruin the orbs unintentionally and those who do need the orbs teammates are dropping for them can take advantage of that.  It would also foster a teamwork mechanic that is sorely lacking at times.


To be serious for a moment this is just a joke

 


#40
Anichkov3

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You can enter a scale of accounting from the orb. For example directly on line to put a label with armor. And count up this line of 150% of the value of one orbs. When one reaches 150% orbs to stop all further repairs orb for the next 3 minutes. I find it hard to describe the idea of the text, so give explanatory picture:

 

OTzykyS.gif

 

 

 

PS: PLS. Update shield. To contact when the two shields - both of shield were disabled.

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Edited by Anichkov3, 28 July 2016 - 09:23 AM.

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