230 replies to this topic

[_incitatus]

at 40 armor per sec, with a max 120 armor in an orb, this would make the orbs dissipate after 3 secs of "lording" regardless of the number of orbs in the vicinity or the incoming dps...

 

 

i like this idea.

 

 

there's gonna be a lot fewer orbs laying around for anyone, let alone the orblords...    

 

But doesn't this still give a big advantage to orblord mechs by nerfing healing across the board to fix an internal specific problem?  

 

Also, wouldn't there be more orbs around since they would be absorbed at a slower rate by everyone?

 

If the rate is capped at 40hp/s, one orb would be gone in 3 secs, but two would last 6, and three would last 9 right?  Unless you had an extractor, in which case it would be 1 orb @ 2.1s, 2 orbs @ 4.2s, and 3 orbs @ 6.7s right?

[StubbornPuppet]

As an observation: if orb healing was disabled on damage, then I imagine that orbs would only be less viable in open combat. Their viability in corner play probably wouldn't be affected to the same degree.

 

I don't have a particular attachment to the suggestion of disabling orb healing on damage, but I figured that its worth exploring the potential changes in gameplay mechanics.

 

Hmm.  There's something to that there...

 

If getting hit by enemy fire momentarily disabled a mech's ability to absorb from an orb... that just might be a simple solution to the biggest part of the problem.  One of the last things Adhesive did was to add a 2-3 second delay to being able to absorb health from an orb after it was deployed.  If getting hit by enemy fire cause a similar delay (probably shorter), that would mean that players, even running an "orb-lord" build, could not just stand on the orbs while fighting.

 

That honestly feels like about as simple of a solution as can be.

[Charcoal]

If a bro has a beer in their hand, then we should be able to knock the beer out of that bro's hand

 

 

Seriously, just make the Orbs movable via body checks and explosives.

[_incitatus]

Hmm. There's something to that there...

If getting hit by enemy fire momentarily disabled a mech's ability to absorb from an orb... that just might be a simple solution to the biggest part of the problem. One of the last things Adhesive did was to add a 2-3 second delay to being able to absorb health from an orb after it was deployed. If getting hit by enemy fire cause a similar delay (probably shorter), that would mean that players, even running an "orb-lord" build, could not just stand on the orbs while fighting.

That honestly feels like about as simple of a solution as can be.

But again, the problem is orblord internals. Why adjust a global healing mechanic to address two internals?

The more I think about it the more obvious it is. What is an orblord? A mech with extractor and repair kit. By the very definition of what makes an orblord an orblord it is obvious that the internals are the problem.

Adjust the rates on the internals or don't allow them to stack. This addresses the actual problem without impacting the gameplay of every mech.

[phed]

But doesn't this still give a big advantage to orblord mechs by nerfing healing across the board to fix an internal specific problem?  

 

Also, wouldn't there be more orbs around since they would be absorbed at a slower rate by everyone?

 

If the rate is capped at 40hp/s, one orb would be gone in 3 secs, but two would last 6, and three would last 9 right?  Unless you had an extractor, in which case it would be 1 orb @ 2.1s, 2 orbs @ 4.2s, and 3 orbs @ 6.7s right?

 

nah dude,

 

that is 40 hp/s per orb, so three orbs is 120 hp/s - as it currently stands.

 

the proposed change makes it 120 hp/s that's wasted, if you stay on the orb after filling up.  so 3 secs on any orb or combination of orbs will completely disipate it. (2.1 with extractor)

 

they could even increase the orb pick up radius to get it an inverse nerf.

 

this way the orb domination (from anyone using multiple orbs) is limited to at max 3 secs on orb, if we do a damage reset then savy players will be able to milk the regen through multiple encounters.

[ARCH3TYP3]

May I please humbly ask for the sake of clarity then; is the community in agreement and is it generally accepted that, fixing (nerfing) the repair kit would be the most effective and preferred approach to balancing the orblord issue?

[_incitatus]

nah dude,

 

that is 40 hp/s per orb, so three orbs is 120 hp/s - as it currently stands.

 

the proposed change makes it 120 hp/s that's wasted, if you stay on the orb after filling up.  so 3 secs on any orb or combination of orbs will completely disipate it. (2.1 with extractor)

 

they could even increase the orb pick up radius to get it an inverse nerf.

 

this way the orb domination (from anyone using multiple orbs) is limited to at max 3 secs on orb, if we do a damage reset then savy players will be able to milk the regen through multiple encounters.

 

I saw no mention of a wasting mechanic.  I thought you were referring to Tj's post where he was discussing capping the rate at 40 hp/s no matter how many orbs you were sitting on.  You can sit on three at a time but you still only get 40 hp/s.

 

Also, I don't like the idea of a wasting mechanic since orblord mechs gain an advantage where they can deplete orbs more quickly.  So not only do they heal faster, they have the ability to remove potential healing from the field faster as well. 

 

Its still a nerf across the board to address a problem that exists solely with two internals.

Edited by _incitatus, 29 July 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

May I please humbly ask for the sake of clarity then; is the community in agreement and is it generally accepted that, fixing (nerfing) the repair kit would be the most effective and preferred approach to balancing the orblord issue?

 

I think that's still very open to interpretation - anyone reviewing this thread will probably come to different conclusions regarding a community consensus (or lack thereof).

 

If any consensus exists, it's likely one that includes one, some, or all of the following: (1) nerfing the relevant internals, (2) capping maximum orb HP gained per second, (3) interrupting orb heals upon damage, and (4) having the orbs still deplete even if a mech is at full health.

 

My guess is probably wrong though, so take that summary with a grain of salt.

[_incitatus]

 

 

If any consensus exists, it's likely one that includes one, some, or all of the following: (1) nerfing the relevant internals, (2) capping maximum orb HP gained per second, (3) interrupting orb heals upon damage, and (4) having the orbs still deplete even if a mech is at full health.

 

 

And only one of those potential solutions specifically addresses the orblord issue without impacting every other mech and/or global gameplay mechanics.

 

I also don't think there is that much of an issue with only the extractor or only the repair kit.  The problem is more about when they are used together. 

 

The adv reconstructor and adv armor fuser stack together, but don't seem to be an issue because you have to be out of combat OR getting kills/assists to activate them.  You have to stop/avoid fighting AND get kills/assists before they will both kick in.  Also the healing ticks aren't too much. 

 

There are no drawbacks like this on orblord internals (other than the trade off of using a different internal).  Standing on an orb activates them both.  You can fight while both are active (which is why I think interrupting healing when damaged while having orblord internals might be interesting).

[Amidatelion]

May I please humbly ask for the sake of clarity then; is the community in agreement and is it generally accepted that, fixing (nerfing) the repair kit would be the most effective and preferred approach to balancing the orblord issue?

 

No.

[EM1O]

previously posted:

A.  Remove self-repair, and orbs as an item.  Technician now becomes a heavily niched mech, totally new game meta.

or

B.  Remove Tech and limit orb value, rate of transfer each individually, or cumulatively. Again, a new game meta.

I own Technician and have orb loard builds, but would welcome either of the two above extremes.  You'd likely soothe a lot of ruffled feathers with either choice.

Edited by EM1O, 29 July 2016 - 12:34 PM.

[phed]

Hi folks,

 

I am looking to see opinions about a proposed change to the infamous 'orblording' mechanic.

 

The change is as follows:

 

What if, when you stood in the 'orb', it drained the 'orb' while standing on top of it, even if you are full armor? This would mean the orb would still heal you while it exists in the game world. This would help curb the benefit from multiple orbs in the same location, as they would be constantly be draining while standing in them.  This change would also give some incentive to move around instead of 'tanking' hits from inside the orb, as to not drain the orb's power.

 

As a note, all other mechanics surrounding the orb, including the health recovery rate, drain rate with multiple players touching the orb, and other related mechanics would still apply.

 

It seems like a simplistic change that would reduce the effectiveness of 'orblording'. What are your thoughts?

 

I am leaving this thread open for feedback. Please keep it civil, constructive, and on topic. I would be interested in hearing your opinions.

 

 

I saw no mention of a wasting mechanic.  [snip]

 

Also, I don't like the idea of a wasting mechanic since orblord mechs gain an advantage where they can deplete orbs more quickly.  So not only do they heal faster, they have the ability to remove potential healing from the field faster as well. 

 

Its still a nerf across the board to address a problem that exists solely with two internals.

 

it's like the first post... the change that they are interested in implimenting that we are supposed to be discussing...

 

i like it.

 

orbs across the board are overpowered, and orb lord is insane.  most of the best players keep orbs on all their mechs, they are aguably the best item in the game, let's curb that.  

 

although...  been playing a bit of howken and locked internals is enough of a nerf to orblording that i'm not even sure if any of this will be necessary in the coming apocalypse, err, i mean 'feature parity' release.

[TheButtSatisfier]

previously posted:

A.  Remove self-repair, and orbs as an item.  Technician now becomes a heavily niched mech, totally new game meta.

or

B.  Remove Tech and limit orb value, rate of transfer each individually, or cumulatively. Again, a new game meta.

I own Technician and have orb loard builds, but would welcome either of the two above extremes.  You'd likely soothe a lot of ruffled feathers with either choice.

 

Those are massive changes to address a specific and isolated topic. I also think implementing either of those suggestions would ruffle way more feathers than they would soothe.

 

I mean, I dislike the tech as much as the next guy, but outright removing it comes off as lazy development. There isn't any other solution to having a tech in the game?

 

And removing a core game mechanic so that each team must run a particular mech to achieve the same effect? Wowza.

 

orbs across the board are overpowered, and orb lord is insane.  most of the best players keep orbs on all their mechs, they are aguably the best item in the game, let's curb that.  

 

For context: there's discussion within TPG to limit the number of EMPs a pilot can carry. The same discussion hasn't been had about orbs to my knowledge. I've seen pilots rage about a perceived overabundance of EMPs raining down on them, but I can't recall someone typing "OMG WTF I HATE ALL THESE ORBS".

 

Which isn't to say that an orb nerf shouldn't be discussed, but contextually, I don't think having 3 orbs is as "bad" / disruptive as having 3 EMPs is.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 29 July 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[_incitatus]

it's like the first post... the change that they are interested in implimenting that we are supposed to be discussing...

 

i like it.

 

orbs across the board are overpowered, and orb lord is insane.  most of the best players keep orbs on all their mechs, they are aguably the best item in the game, let's curb that.  

 

although...  been playing a bit of howken and locked internals is enough of a nerf to orblording that i'm not even sure if any of this will be necessary in the coming apocalypse, err, i mean 'feature parity' release.

 

Yeah, I agree the orb item is a bit OP in general.  I believe in howken not all mechs carry them though so nerfing the death orbs might be a bit drastic.

[DallasCreeper]

Why are all the interesting threads posted while I'm away?

[ATX22]

Just give the health orb a 25% chance to act like the greased up deaf guy in FG.

 

[_incitatus]

it's like the first post... the change that they are interested in implimenting that we are supposed to be discussing...

i like it.

Lol, you snipped the part where I explained my confusion. I thought you were referring to another post in this thread.

Edited by _incitatus, 29 July 2016 - 03:13 PM.

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

this sounds fun, will try it on the van someday.

[WillyW]

I like this change. Its totally fair and it will help alleviate some of the OP-ness of orbs in general.

 

Coming from someone who heavily relies on orbs (not orblording) as a Vanguard main, I think its a great idea.

 

My only suggestion to add would be to make Repair Kit and Extractor have some sort of a cooldown? Orblording would still be OP in terms of the situational power that it provides, but limited to a specified time limit in between orbs.

Edited by WillyW, 29 July 2016 - 06:49 PM.

[phed]

Lol, you snipped the part where I explained my confusion. I thought you were referring to another post in this thread.

 

yeah, lol, because your confusion obfuscated the point hahaha

[LU0P10]

Perhaps tune the orb to gradually loose HP, immediately after the deployment/death.

Also, right now it lives for ~25 sec. How about 5sec?

Exactly. Why people are over-complicating things? Orbs stay on the battleground too long. Make the orb to dissipate in five or less seconds. Very simple solution to the orb-lording problem... and with that change to the orbs I can suggest with straight face this change to the Tech: 

The Tech would have the indefinite source of orbs, it's special ability would be the ability to drop health-orbs (how often, I dunno). Scratch the healing beam and replace that with any other weapon. 

[JeffMagnum]

Is there any way you could come up with an optional publicly-available build similar to the HAB one that existed in the past that would let you push out unpolished changes without worrying about affecting the live environment as a whole? That would be ideal for testing out the various adjustments suggested here. If we'd have to sign an NDA to get a download link then so be it, but something like that would be a huge step forward in terms of getting us involved in a meaningful way if it were offered to everyone.

Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 July 2016 - 05:20 AM.

[Hyginos]

For context: there's discussion within TPG to limit the number of EMPs a pilot can carry. The same discussion hasn't been had about orbs to my knowledge. I've seen pilots rage about a perceived overabundance of EMPs raining down on them, but I can't recall someone typing "OMG WTF I HATE ALL THESE ORBS".

 

Which isn't to say that an orb nerf shouldn't be discussed, but contextually, I don't think having 3 orbs is as "bad" / disruptive as having 3 EMPs is.

 

I think I can elaborate on why this is.

 

If someone is standing on a mountain of orbs you can easily choose not to engage him, contest his hill of robot souls, or bring some friends to help knock him down.

 

EMPs, however, are an item that is popular for their ability to stuff plays. Getting EMPed out of a big push or an ability or something is really irritating. The fact that it actually disables your freedom to act for a few seconds can be obnoxious in large quantities.

 

I would also argue that this is a sign that orbs themselves don't need a huge change, if at all. Based on how TPG season 3 and the 3v3 tournaments post repairkit/extractor ban went it seems like those two internals are 99% of the problem. With out those internals orb pick up is pretty reasonable.

[Draigun]

I agree that nerfing orbs in general is not the solution, because that affects more than orb-lording, which is the real problem.  It is the internals which need to be nerfed/fixed, not orbs in general.
 
(And remove Tech.  Sorry.  Can't help myself.  I REALLY hate that mech.)

 
If the developers are aiming to nerf the orbs, then by all means allowing continued absorption regardless of armor values is an excellent way to go about it. As far as we're concerned though, they are tackling orblording, not the orbs themselves. Reloaded's initial proposal shouldn't be implemented if this is true, especially considering that an orb by itself is not responsible for orblording meta.

[ATX22]

You could have the orbs act as a tether where they slow the movement of the healing mech.  The more orbs you're actively healing from, the greater the impact on movement.  Or have dashing near them cause them to scatter.  Or have them cause increased heat generation.  Something to counter your ability to move and fire while repairing as apposed to normal repairing. 

[Hyginos]

The more I think about it, the more difficult it seems to simply "fix" repair kit without changing it mechanically. The only way to make an orb give more armor without changing the pickup rate is to make the full pickup time take longer. This seems simple enough by itself, but the problem is that every mech on the field draws from the same pool of HP in that orb. If an orb had 170 hp in theory a mech with advanced repair kit should be able to draw 212.5 armor from it, but what happens if that ARK mech pulls 171 armor from the orb then leaves? Another mech ARK would, I would think, be able draw off that remaining 41.5 armor, but not a mech without. And what of a mech with a regular repair kit that can draw a maximum of 191.25 armor from an orb? What happens when a mech with ARK is standing the same orb as a mech without?

 

It ends up being a whole mess of how you communicate to players if and how much they can pull from orbs, and how you handle the remaining balance of armor heals. One thing you could do is have orbs leave a 'ghost orb' on depletion that can only be picked up with a repair kit, but that seems a little contrived.

 

Something you could do with repair kit that would disassociate it from orbs without requiring a name change would be to make it do something with the repair drone, such as faster drone deployment when overheated, below 10% hp, near teammates, etc. This one makes me nervous however because I distinctly recall faster drone deployment being a staple when it was available in the skill tree, so I hesitate to advocate for it without a distinct recollection of why that was removed.

 

Another alternative that should do a lot for the PTFO people would be to give a small amount hp/second when near a teammate that is repairing, on an objective (perhaps only one you own, only one the other team owns, whatever), and/or while pulling EU from a tree. I think the heal amount would have to be pretty small (on the order of a few hp/second) for this one to be balanced, especially heals while on an objective.

 

Honestly though I'm not a huge fan of any of the repair kit fixes above, and I would prefer some of the reworks for extractor in their place. Perhaps someone else has a more clever solution.

 

Going back to extractor, and in keeping with the original idea of pulling armor off of orbs even when at full, perhaps you could make extractor consume orbs to reduce heat when at full armor. Wouldn't even have to change the name.

[Charcoal]

Look, Making the orb movable gives the enemy team a direct counter to an orblording mech.

 

It allows us to shift the mech out of a contested area, while preserving the healing effect without changes to the healing mechanic.

 

The problem of an orblording mech is that you have to kill them to move them from their spot

 

If you give the users another technique to dislodge an orb, that addresses the problem with minimum impact on orbs that are placed in non contested areas

Edited by Charcoal, 03 August 2016 - 04:10 PM.

[6ixxer]

Look, Making the orb movable gives the enemy team a direct counter to an orblording mech.

 

It allows us to shift the mech out of a contested area, while preserving the healing effect without changes to the healing mechanic.

 

The problem of an orblording mech is that you have to kill them to move them from their spot

 

If you give the users another technique to dislodge an orb, that addresses the problem with minimum impact on orbs that are placed in non contested areas

 

...or you could make a charge that is a direct counter to all repairing, not just the orb lord.

Probably easier than turning orbs into movable items.

 

If they are orb lording near a structure or on a stack of death orbs, you throw an anti-repair charge on your side and suddenly all orbs in the AoE are neutralized and they also have to move away to receive effective tech heals or C-repair.

 

If you're trying to push into a choke point or AA, toss the charge into the enemy side and they have to move further away to repair, making it harder for them to hold the point. I think experienced players could find lots of use for this. 

 

#HawkenNeedsMoreItems

[TheButtSatisfier]

I'll admit that moveable orbs would be the coolest way to address orb lording.

[HubbaBubba9849]

I'm not exactly promoting this idea, and it's not completely relevant to the topic at hand, but has anyone tinkered with the idea of having each weight class have different orb absorption efficiency? Like, A classes absorb less than B, which absorb less than C. Something like A:100, B:125, C:150? They already have different fuel consumption efficiency so the idea doesn't seem too far fetched.

 

Spoiler

In fact, you could change the repair kit internal to functionally upgrade your efficiency to the next weight class level. 2 levels for the advanced repair kit. IE: essentially +25 armor for repair kit, +50 armor for adv. repair kit

 

As for my stance on relevant topics:

  -Absorption even at full health: Not so sure about that.

  -Absorption pause on damage: Yes.

  -Move-able orbs: Sure, why not?

  -Internal Adjustments/Reworks: Yeah, probably.

  -Exploding orbs: No way.

  -Remove orb stacking: Yes, or make them stack non-linearly.

  -Natural decay on orbs: Only if at a slow rate like 10 per second.

[SSSS]

What if: orbs don't work unless you're repairing near them (=boost to repair speed).

 

Bonus What if: tech repair beam does not work on you unless you're repairing (=boost to repair speed).

 

Just think about it for a moment.

[Onstrava]

How about this for a little idea, have an item that stops all healing while in the AOE, of course have some kind of indicator show this in your mech. Or something like that as a new item tier, anti-healing tiered items. Of course the limit and item slot size will still be the same, limit of 3 uses for 3 size slot ec. I bet everybody would have those equipped in a skirmish. While where at it, why isn't there a Radar Jammer in this game? I don't mean having multi-dots show up on your radar with Scrambler. I mean an actual Jammer that blocks out your radar while in the AOE, saying something along the lines of "Signal lost". Items, healing and radar seem pretty important in Hawken so I always wondered why we don't have things in this game that interfere with those mechanics.

Edited by Onstrava, 05 August 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[6ixxer]

How about this for a little idea, have an item that stops all healing while in the AOE, of course have some kind of indicator show this in your mech. Or something like that as a new item tier, anti-healing tiered items. Of course the limit and item slot size will still be the same, limit of 3 uses for 3 size slot ec. I bet everybody would have those equipped in a skirmish.

Hmmm, why didn't I think of that....

We could also have a catchy hashtag to promote it like #HawkenNeedsMoreItems

[6ixxer]

While where at it, why isn't there a Radar Jammer in this game? I don't mean having multi-dots show up on your radar with Scrambler. I mean an actual Jammer that blocks out your radar while in the AOE, saying something along the lines of "Signal lost". Items, healing and radar seem pretty important in Hawken so I always wondered why we don't have things in this game that interfere with those mechanics.

I also suggested an anti-scanner internal previously too.
Wouldn't stop you appearing when you generate heat from boosting/shooting, but you could walk past a scanner and not show on enemy radar.

I'd happily discuss other new items/internals for ages, but this thread is specifically about orb-lording

[BlackWarGreymon]

TL;DR- what about de-spawning the orb if a new one is dropped, like how dropping shields works. Atleast this way you can still heal from one orb, but you have to drain it fully before you can drop any more- this way you can't refill your health in a matter of seconds by having 2 or 3 orbs sat in a pile next to eachother.

 

I still don't like the delay between dropping the orb and being able to use it though, maybe get rid of that delay and implement the limit of how many orbs you can have active at once, I like that idea...

[crockrocket]

TL;DR- what about de-spawning the orb if a new one is dropped, like how dropping shields works. Atleast this way you can still heal from one orb, but you have to drain it fully before you can drop any more- this way you can't refill your health in a matter of seconds by having 2 or 3 orbs sat in a pile next to eachother.

I still don't like the delay between dropping the orb and being able to use it though, maybe get rid of that delay and implement the limit of how many orbs you can have active at once, I like that idea...

It would be easier and effectively the same to just increase the item cooldown

[Hyginos]

TL;DR- what about de-spawning the orb if a new one is dropped, like how dropping shields works. At least this way you can still heal from one orb, but you have to drain it fully before you can drop any more- this way you can't refill your health in a matter of seconds by having 2 or 3 orbs sat in a pile next to each other.

 

I still don't like the delay between dropping the orb and being able to use it though, maybe get rid of that delay and implement the limit of how many orbs you can have active at once, I like that idea...

 

The thing is you can still pull off orbs that someone else dropped. A bunch of mechs going down in one area will still make a substantial pile of orbs even if none of the mechs deploy repair charges.

 

If you want to limit mechs to picking up only one orb at a time that can be done directly. If a mech is standing on more than one orb, it can simply pull from them one at a time in the order it hits them.

 

All in all though, I think dealing with extractor and repair kit is a more robust option than playing with how orbs work.

[MomOw]

I'm starting to think that dealing with internals could be the good way to deal with it, and that 2 items buffing orb health regen could be too much.

 

What about :

a repair kit that increase repair rate when you use the repair button (something equivalent to a Mech equipped with an extractor poping an orb before repairing)

an extractor with reduced effectiveness when you are hit (half bonus or something, as already being said).

[6ixxer]

The thing is you can still pull off orbs that someone else dropped. A bunch of mechs going down in one area will still make a substantial pile of orbs even if none of the mechs deploy repair charges.

 

If you want to limit mechs to picking up only one orb at a time that can be done directly. If a mech is standing on more than one orb, it can simply pull from them one at a time in the order it hits them.

 

All in all though, I think dealing with extractor and repair kit is a more robust option than playing with how orbs work.

 

Another reason i suggest anti-repair charge. Throw one on the pile to make all orbs evaporate.

If you get on the pile first and another player wants to get in and rub chassis, drop anti-repair and they lose all the orbs and if they kill you, they lose your death orb too.

 

I'm starting to think that dealing with internals could be the good way to deal with it, and that 2 items buffing orb health regen could be too much.

 

What about :

a repair kit that increase repair rate when you use the repair button (something equivalent to a Mech equipped with an extractor poping an orb before repairing)

an extractor with reduced effectiveness when you are hit (half bonus or something, as already being said).

 

I like the idea of changing one of the orb internals to give bonus self-repair speed instead. it changes one in-combat internal to be out-of-combat to reduce stacking.

[Hyginos]

Another reason i suggest anti-repair charge. Throw one on the pile to make all orbs evaporate.

If you get on the pile first and another player wants to get in and rub chassis, drop anti-repair and they lose all the orbs and if they kill you, they lose your death orb too.

 

I am against this for the same reason I am against and anti-scanner: introducing a hard counter to deal with an OP item is not a robust way to balance.