230 replies to this topic

[Xacius]

Only if they are designed poorly.

 

Creating an item to balance another one is like trying to address the wage gap by just making one woman extremely, extremely rich. Technically each solution "works" by narrow definition, but in practice they both fail to address the issue.

WHY'S IT HAVE TO BE A WOMAN?  ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT THE WOMEN WAS INITIALLY POOR?  DID YOU JUST ASSUME HER INCOME?

[Sokram]

Orblord = healing with multiple heal items at the same time while shooting things.

 

 

Solutions : 

 

> Allow only ONE orb to be consumed at the same time ( limit healing ).

 

 >  Add heal disruptor item.

 

   >  Add "heal supress" debuff  when in combat.  50% heal reduction during combat and few second after you get damaged.   

 

Or just remove orbs...

[coldform]

Orblord = healing with multiple heal items at the same time while shooting things.

WRONG.
Orblord refers to using internals that specifically increase both the speed and amount of healing that an orb does, regardless of wether or not a pilot is using the orb item.

The buffs provided by extractor and repair kit apply to all orbs, not just the repair charge item.

[6ixxer]

Creating an item to balance another one is like trying to address the wage gap by just making one woman extremely, extremely rich. Technically each solution "works" by narrow definition, but in practice they both fail to address the issue.

It is in no way like making one woman rich. Mechs have no gender but perhaps class equates better to gender. We are trying to balance have's and have-not's.

 

I'd say it's more like all those people without cars complaining about the people who have cars.

The solution would seem to be giving everyone else the option to purchase bicycles, not to ride, but to throw in the path of the cars, to piss them off and slow them down.

 

Some people may elect to ride over your bicycle, laugh in your face and steamroll over you too.

Then it becomes a balancing act of limiting the size of the cars and making the bicycles an increasing pain in the A to drive over.

 

It may seem like a ridiculous solution. It would appear to address the issue. What you see as an issue, I see as strategy and variety.

[Hyginos]

It is in no way like making one woman rich. Mechs have no gender but perhaps class equates better to gender. We are trying to balance have's and have-not's.

 

I'd say it's more like all those people without cars complaining about the people who have cars.

The solution would seem to be giving everyone else the option to purchase bicycles, not to ride, but to throw in the path of the cars, to piss them off and slow them down.

 

Some people may elect to ride over your bicycle, laugh in your face and steamroll over you too.

Then it becomes a balancing act of limiting the size of the cars and making the bicycles an increasing pain in the A to drive over.

 

It may seem like a ridiculous solution. It would appear to address the issue. What you see as an issue, I see as strategy and variety.

 

 

There was once a statistician,

with feet on ice head in the oven,

he felt  fine, it seemed,

'casue he just chased the mean,

that's the gist of Butt's spiel about women.

Edited by Hyginos, 25 September 2016 - 08:25 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

There was once a statistician,

with feet on ice head in the oven,

I felt  fine, it seemed,

'casue he just chased the mean,

that's the gist of Butt's spiel about women.

 

 

When Einstein was traveling to lecture in Spain,
He questioned a conductor again and again:
�It may be a while,�
He asked with a smile,
�But when does Madrid reach this train?�

[6ixxer]

It is in no way like making one woman rich. 

 

It may be like giving all women access welfare or tax cuts, but not telling them. They have to work it out themselves or be told by other women.

 

Also technically a solution.

[moosa17]

Are you confusing the repair orb item with the repair kit internal?

I used the wrong name yes. I meant the "repair charge."

 

 

To put it a different way: right now the extractor and the repair kit internals are the only internals that interact with items. No other internal increases the detonation radius of an EMP, or increases the damage output of a detonator, or increases the hitpoints of a shield. If such internals did exist, then we'd be having discussions about EMPlording or shieldlording or detlording or whatever.

 

To reword what you've stated, the repair charge is the only item that interacts with internals. That supports the idea of removing the repair charge. That's removing one item instead of removing two internals which have use outside of the full orblord build (I actually run extractor on my Infil and repair kit on my Brawler). Nerfing any of these internals is not what we want as it would make them useless in any other context.

The above argument combined with the redundancy argument is plenty to indicate that the cleanest solution is to remove the repair charge.
 

[Hyginos]

I used the wrong name yes. I meant the "repair charge."

 

 

 

To reword what you've stated, the repair charge is the only item that interacts with internals. That supports the idea of removing the repair charge. That's removing one item instead of removing two internals which have use outside of the full orblord build (I actually run extractor on my Infil and repair kit on my Brawler). Nerfing any of these internals is not what we want as it would make them useless in any other context.

The above argument combined with the redundancy argument is plenty to indicate that the cleanest solution is to remove the repair charge.
 

 

As we discussed prior in this thread,

the game without orbwhore was tested

when we did it in comp

just orbs weren't too stronk.

The orbwhore heals just can't be bested.

[TheButtSatisfier]

To reword what you've stated, the repair charge is the only item that interacts with internals. That supports the idea of removing the repair charge. That's removing one item instead of removing two internals which have use outside of the full orblord build (I actually run extractor on my Infil and repair kit on my Brawler). Nerfing any of these internals is not what we want as it would make them useless in any other context.

The above argument combined with the redundancy argument is plenty to indicate that the cleanest solution is to remove the repair charge.

 

As Hyginos poetically stated, Hawken's competitive league banned the orb lord internals (EX and RH) and there were no issues with players carrying orbs. Nobody complained that there were too many orbs, or that someone was too powerful because they were carrying 3 orbs. Not a single soul. As a matter of fact, the only item that people did complain about was the abundance of EMPs flying around. There were plenty of people very upset by that.

 

As a result, if we applied your same prioritization method of going for the the "cleanest solution" to the problem of overpowered EMPs, then we'd be removing EMPs too. I do not think that the solution to addressing an OP or UP item/internal/mech/whatever is to outright remove it from the game. That's lazy, it's throwing a ton of development work away because someone was afraid to modify a few fuzzy bunnyng values, and it's basically amateur hour game design. No serious game developer should ever throw their hands in the air and remove an unbalanced asset before trying to balance it first.

 

To reword what you've stated, the repair charge is the only item that interacts with internals. That supports the idea of removing the repair charge. That's removing one item instead of removing two internals which have use outside of the full orblord build (I actually run extractor on my Infil and repair kit on my Brawler). Nerfing any of these internals is not what we want as it would make them useless in any other context.

 

I see your point, but there's a dozen unique items in this game, and only two internals interact with one of those items. From that perspective then the effect the internals have on that subset of items is the culprit. We could probably just settle this by saying "it's all relative". Plus, I don't think that the game designers had any idea that three years from implementing the EX and RH that we'd be having an online debate about whether or not we should keep them / change them / throw them away, so trying to make value judgments about how "important" it is that the EX and RH interact with only orbs is probably misguided. Maybe there were plans to make internals that affected other items that never came about. I'd wager it's irrelevant.

 

Now don't get me wrong. As I've explored before: would removing orbs as an item work? Yes. Would removing the EX and RH internals work? Yes. But the principle of the action is a step backwards for all the reasons I've listed.

 

My preference is that the fewest changes possible are made to address this issue. Removing an item from this game is a larger change than reducing the appropriate values for the EX and RH. As I've said before, if those internals only offered a 1% bonus to extraction or orb health value, nobody would pick them. Right now, they're a strong choice because they offer borderline OP bonuses. Assuming both of those statements are true, there's a Goldilocks zone of values that the EX and RH can be changed to so that they're neither OP or UP. I am of the opinion that Reloaded would be best served by slowly reducing those values until they get both internals to a more balanced state.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 26 September 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[6ixxer]

We could probably just settle this by saying "it's all relative".

 
it's all relative [/thread]

[DemitronPrime]

soo im curious, were any of these small changes implmented during the last update

 

[TheButtSatisfier]

soo im curious, were any of these small changes implmented during the last update

 

[takes bait]

 

Reloaded changed orbs on consoles so now they dissipate if you stand on them, regardless if you have full health or not. Which is actually really neat because it does nothing to address RK+EX orblording, which is what "orblording" actually is, and not "oh boy look there's two orbs near each other now I can be an honorary orblord". The other really awesome aspect of Reloaded's change is that the only mech on consoles that actually has an RK+EX+orbs orblord build (remember: builds are locked on consoles because fuzz yeah) is the Brawler, so you know Reloaded had a full-blown epidemic on their hands of orblorders running around causing havoc and Reloaded needed to act very quickly and bravely before the whole console community implohahahahahhaha.

 

Of course, I hold each and every one of you responsible for this failure, because apparently 5 pages of detailed analysis and discussion regarding the topic is insufficient for Reloaded to understand what orblording is, how it's a problem, and how to act accordingly.

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 29 September 2016 - 06:33 AM.

[dorobo]

[CZeroFive]

The changes were made to target orb stacking in general on consoles, not just 'orblording' configs. When we made the changes, it wasn't made to address the brawler, it was made to address the fact that stacking orbs on top of each other from dead opponents was a bad gameplay mechanic. Which is a form of orblording, mind you, just not one that can be done intentionally.

 

The PC build will be seeing different changes, and consoles will be seeing a change to this mechanic. As I posted in the OP, this thread was made to gather feedback so we can implement a proper fix for the PC build. (and hopefully the console build, when they get some gameplay changes we've yet to discuss formally regarding customization of mechs)

 

That being said, the changes recently seen on console were not the changes meant to address the issue of the orblording internals because there are very few kits that can benefit from that on consoles right now. Well, that, and you can't change items/internals on console for now.

Edited by CZeroFive, 29 September 2016 - 07:08 AM.

[TheButtSatisfier]

-snip-

 

Regardless of how grumpy we sound, having you guys communicate with us is still very appreciated.

[CZeroFive]

Regardless of how grumpy we sound, having you guys communicate with us is still very appreciated.

 

I know you guys are 'living on a prayer' for any information from us. Hopefully there will be another blog soon; keep your eyes peeled.

[StubbornPuppet]

I know you guys are 'living on a prayer' for any information from us. Hopefully there will be another blog soon; keep your eyes peeled.

>Awaits the new Visine internal...

[Hyginos]

The changes were made to target orb stacking in general on consoles, not just 'orblording' configs. When we made the changes, it wasn't made to address the brawler, it was made to address the fact that stacking orbs on top of each other from dead opponents was a bad gameplay mechanic.

 

That does not really make sense

the change therein does not address

the heal rate from stacking.

So what's wrong with capping

the the rate at which heals can dispense?

 

The only thing I see this doing

is encourage mechs to keep moving.

Can't linger too long,

or your orbs will be gone,

but you still can out-heal someone shooting.

Edited by Hyginos, 29 September 2016 - 08:30 AM.

[CounterlogicMan]

That does not really make sense
the change therein does not address
the heal rate from stacking.
So what's wrong with capping
the the rate at which heals can dispense?

The only thing I see this doing
is encourage mechs to keep moving.
Can't linger too long,
or your orbs will be gone,
but you still can out-heal someone shooting.

The heal rate being uncapped is a much bigger problem when a mech can sit on orbs at full health and effectively not take any damage. The change on console eliminates that dynamic. If anything it raises the skill requirement for orblording ever so slightly.

As for the second paragraph, I would guess that that is the entire point of using that particular change over others suggested here. Hawken is about moving and shooting, not turtling on orbs.

I just hope that the tutorial on console got changed to reflect this new orb wasting mechanic.

[DM30]

...it was made to address the fact that stacking orbs on top of each other from dead opponents was a bad gameplay mechanic. Which is a form of orblording, mind you, just not one that can be done intentionally.

 

*triggered*

 

I'm sorry. I don't like to come across as aggressive toward the devs who have put so much hard work into this game, and I especially appreciate this thread which reflects an increased effort to directly involve the community in development processes. Big +1 for those things, really.

 

BUT.

 

Did a member of the dev team that has been working on this game for little more than a year really just try and tell the community that has been playing Hawken for 4 years what the definition of an established, community-generated term is?

 

Seriously?

 

As has been stated multiple times in this thread, Orblording is strictly the use of Repair Kit and Extractor internals, usually in combination with orb items. The act of orb stacking isn't the same thing.

 

Again, as has been stated already here, in TPG competitive play when Orblord internals were banned, there were no complaints about orbs from participants, at least that I ever saw in game or here on the forums (and I lurk here a LOT). This lack of complaints includes the act of stacking item orbs on death orbs. I know that competitive players are not a good representation of the game as a whole, but that isn't a fact to ignore either.

 

I don't know if this new change is good or bad. It might actually have a beneficial impact on the flow of the game for all we know now. But I really, REALLY doubt it's going to do anything against Orblording. Full heath orb draining or not, an Orblord mech can still drop an orb or two in combat and receive a massive advantage from it that is disproportionate to any other internal build.

Edited by DM30, 29 September 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[_incitatus]

The changes were made to target orb stacking in general on consoles, not just 'orblording' configs. When we made the changes, it wasn't made to address the brawler, it was made to address the fact that stacking orbs on top of each other from dead opponents was a bad gameplay mechanic. Which is a form of orblording, mind you, just not one that can be done intentionally.

 

So, can the console Brawler now soak up orbs at an absurd rate (repair kit and extractor) even at full health?  Can it sit on three orbs at full health and drain them all at the same time and at the same rate as a single orb?

 

If so, it seems like the orblord internals just got an indirect buff.

Edited by _incitatus, 29 September 2016 - 10:26 AM.

[hestoned]

i like this change. doesnt break the internals but makes stacking orbs less obnoxious. no one even notices orbkit on just 1 repair orb. you do notice when you tow an orbkit mech sitting on 2 or 3 orbs. thats what players have trouble with. well this change to orbs makes tanking way less effective. even more so with orbkit since they are consumed faster. now you cant control a corner for 30 secs just from brain dead left right strafing

besides if your enganging a mech in that situation in the first place then you are doing it wrong

[crockrocket]

I'd say the change will help but is by no means a fix as it doesn't directly address orblording.

[CZeroFive]

So, can the console Brawler now soak up orbs at an absurd rate (repair kit and extractor) even at full health?  Can it sit on three orbs at full health and drain them all at the same time and at the same rate as a single orb?

 

If so, it seems like the orblord internals just got an indirect buff.

 

The only change is just the orb will now drain regardless of if you're at full health or not. Every other mechanic works the same. So if you're at full health, you will just be wasting the orb.

 

 

Did a member of the dev team that has been working on this game for little more than a year really just try and tell the community that has been playing Hawken for 4 years what the definition of an established, community-generated term is?

 

It was a 'form' similar to the problem with 'orblording' internal loadout. The issue we addressed was similar enough that I felt the wording was appropriate. Tough crowd, I guess. :)

 

 

The only thing I see this doing

is encourage mechs to keep moving.

Can't linger too long,

or your orbs will be gone,

but you still can out-heal someone shooting.

 

That's exactly what this change hoped to address.

Standing on an orb is not fast paced, and we wanted to keep the pace of Hawken fast.

Edited by CZeroFive, 30 September 2016 - 02:01 AM.

[Hyginos]

That's exactly what this change hoped to address.

Standing on an orb is not fast paced, and we wanted to keep the pace of Hawken fast.

 

Does any one actually do that?

It makes you so easy to shoot at.

When 'sitting' on orbs

you swipe back and forth.

Unless console play has static combat...

 

What really did make the game slower:

The dodge cooldowns got a cold shower.

I guess air speeds are fine,

but just in straight lines,

while dancing lost lots of it's power.

[nepacaka]

Actually, added +50 HP for every top-tier,
It doesn't help run mech on top-gear,
steam-patch was be fast-paced as well,
Sorry, but it is babaji poem.

[CounterlogicMan]

Does any one actually do that?
It makes you so easy to shoot at.
When 'sitting' on orbs
you swipe back and forth.
Unless console play has static combat...

What really did make the game slower:
The dodge cooldowns got a cold shower.
I guess air speeds are fine,
but just in straight lines,
while dancing lost lots of it's power.

In my experience the vast majority of people just stand or strafe on the orbs. At most a skilled player would dodge off them at the moment a big burst is coming, or to bait the enemy, then dodge back onto them. Not exactly what you would call fast paced....


It was a lovely poem nepa.... no fuzzy bunny clue what it meant but it was nice. It brings a tear to any emp/bomb drone's robo eye.

[_incitatus]

The only change is just the orb will now drain regardless of if you're at full health or not. Every other mechanic works the same. So if you're at full health, you will just be wasting the orb.

 

I wouldn't call it wasting the orb if your goal is to very quickly drain any orbs you don't need to prevent opponents (or your teammates) from using them.

[TheButtSatisfier]

In my experience the vast majority of people just stand or strafe on the orbs. At most a skilled player would dodge off them at the moment a big burst is coming, or to bait the enemy, then dodge back onto them. Not exactly what you would call fast paced....

 

I mildly disagree. I usually see two types of players: (1) those that regularly use orbs and, as a result, know to dance / dodge on them versus (2) players that don't regularly use orbs and usually forget about them as soon as they're thrown. Edit: okay I realize I basically just agreed with you.

 

The siphoning change will undoubtedly reduce the number of orbs laying around as mech traffic passes by their siphoning range. That's the only change I feel confident predicting. But there's still a lot of questions. Does it mean that players who include the orb item in their loadouts are now more at an advantage than those who don't, since orbs will be more rare? Will the change have any effect on the RK+EX orblord build?

 

That's exactly what this change hoped to address.

Standing on an orb is not fast paced, and we wanted to keep the pace of Hawken fast.

 

(Red emphasis mine) When I first read this last night, I disagreed. The reason why is that I interpreted "pacing" as referring to the individual movements of pilots in combat. I thought to myself, "Even during brief sustained engagements, the presence of the orb doesn't really speed up or slow down the actual movement of mechs fighting (assuming they aren't noobs who plant themselves firmly atop an orb)".

 

Now that I read the red text again, I read the sentence more as a comment on strategic pilot movement, and I find myself agreeing with it. The actual flow and pacing of pilot movements across the match as a whole won't pause on orb fields as much, and there will be fewer orbs of opportunity for players to sit on. In a sense, orbs are almost like little gravity wells, especially near chokepoints. Players tend to gravitate towards them. With this change, the strategic movement of mechs across the battlefield won't be as influenced by whether or not orbs are in a particular area (at least not to the same degree as now).

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 30 September 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[-Tj-]

The only change is just the orb will now drain regardless of if you're at full health or not. Every other mechanic works the same. So if you're at full health, you will just be wasting the orb.

 

Standing on an orb is not fast paced, and we wanted to keep the pace of Hawken fast.

 

I don't think that's a good way of increasing the pacing, especially after nearly every video I've seen here showing loads of players on console moving very little, regardless of whether an orb is beneath them or not. That seems to me more inexperience than a problem of standing on an orb, and in more advanced games I don't see players standing on orbs for very long.

 

Edit:

Thinking about my own play style, I would likely end up watching the health bar level more than I do now while recovering with an orb. Right now, the orb stops making the "ahhhhh" noise when your health is full, and in many cases I instinctively move away from the orb once that sound stops. If the modified orbs keep making the noise while health is full and the orb continues to absorb, I would see this as a negative to the overall pacing, since I would end up either staying on the orb longer if I listen to the sound, or would have to pay more attention to my health bar instead of the battle.

Edited by -Tj-, 30 September 2016 - 06:51 PM.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

This change to orbs doesn't sound totally offensive. I can see some denial of orb attacks going down with a crafty pred that flanks the enemy group during a fight. All in all worth checking out then making a judgement regarding.

[nepacaka]

another thing which probably can working not bad. (and i think it can be easily changes in 2 click)
- decrease "orb item" life time to 20 sec.
- decrease "orb" (from dead mech) life time to 10-12 sec.
to not gain field full of orbs after battle, like we can see it sometimes on prosk (or other maps) after "good massacre" in the middle of the map

not related with orblording as is, but i think it more like gameplay changes. if you have extraktor+rep.kit, you should consume orbs faster, because if you not, they just dissapear. i.e. you should work as a "train". kill enemy, consume, kill, consume, don't stop.
at the same time enemy can prevent your wishes to consume orbs. so, if you not do it fast, those internals probably not so very effective, because you can't consume it all, and you spent time to reach the orb, and spent time to consume it, and it can dissapear before you consume it. mostly it is working 100% from you own "orb items", and now it is only Van and Brawler.

Edited by nepacaka, 02 October 2016 - 01:31 AM.

[talon70]

It is common knowledge the internals cause the orbwhore problem. Shortening the life of an orb on the battle field seems to favor the orbwhore fuzzy bunnies and punish the new player who has no clue.

Edited by talon70, 02 October 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[nepacaka]

delete orbs. delete tech. problem solved. ez.

to be honest, new players suffer not from this. they just don't understand nothing in game, or game is too hard for them (by brain, reflexes, or other human parameters)

Edited by nepacaka, 02 October 2016 - 11:33 AM.

[_incitatus]

It is common knowledge the internals cause the orbwhore problem. Shortening the life of an orb on the battle field seems to favor the orbwhore fuzzy bunnies and punish the new player who has no clue.

 

This was my impression as well, its seems that the internals would be stronger with this change because not only do you still heal super fast, but now you can deplete orbs you don't need super fast.

[TheButtSatisfier]

This was my impression as well, its seems that the internals would be stronger with this change because not only do you still heal super fast, but now you can deplete orbs you don't need super fast.

 

I can see this being a benefit to an orblording player in DM, but in the other gamemodes I'd imagine such behavior being equally detrimental to allied and enemy players alike. On the other hand, I can see a player with solid map awareness depleting orbs only on the enemy side of a battlefield.

 

Someone with time and math answer this riddle: how much more quickly does someone with an EX (I'm assuming RK doesn't speed up orb depletion time since it grants additional siphoning health/second, but maybe I'm wrong) deplete a full orb versus someone without?

[_incitatus]

I can see this being a benefit to an orblording player in DM, but in the other gamemodes I'd imagine such behavior being equally detrimental to allied and enemy players alike. On the other hand, I can see a player with solid map awareness depleting orbs only on the enemy side of a battlefield.

 

Someone with time and math answer this riddle: how much more quickly does someone with an EX (I'm assuming RK doesn't speed up orb depletion time since it grants additional siphoning health/second, but maybe I'm wrong) deplete a full orb versus someone without?

 

I think its 30% faster?

[coldform]

I betting that someone who has plenty of experience orbwhoring would be able to time their drops, and would mitigate the wasted hp from not siphoning an orb to negligible amounts.

[StubbornPuppet]

I see the discussed phenomenon of "standing on piles of orbs" as a really bad tactical move - a mistake.  Unless the enemy you face is an even worse player than you are, attempting to move so that you keep ending up on top of orbs is predictable and will just get you killed.  When I see a person doing this, I just keep aiming my slower and/or explosive weapons at the orbs and time them for when the person is most likely to attempt to move on top of them again.  Sure, it may give them an extra second or three of life... but they're going to get killed.

 

Better and more tricky movements that are less predictable are a far superior tactic.