61 replies to this topic

[ShadowWarg]

I can't do it. I tried to be patient, I tried to avoid making a topic on it, but I cant.

 

There is no way around it, there is just too much "health" and too many options to heal in Hawken. I would even argue this part of the reason for the game's TTK and pacing roller-coaster ride. The health system has to change or most of these health options have to go. Its not the biggest issue with current Hawken, but it is an issue. Ignoring mech's individual health pools, you have:

 

• Self/manual repairing
• Health orbs that all mechs drop after death (Death Orbs)
• Health / repair item (Repair Orbs)
• Tech mech dedicated to healing
• About 3 or more healing / repair internals
• Defense increasing internals and items

 

I'm not saying health isn't important, but it does feel pretty expendable. The repair orb item has been stated many times by even high level players to be to strong, even more so with the addition of internals. The pocket healing tech has been an issue since day 1 of its release, restoring everything in no time (don't even get me started on its ability). Repairing, originally one of the biggest drawing factor to Hawken which moved away from the auto health regeneration of most modern day games, has been shorted to a large degree. Some of those changes were actually good, but stacking them all on top of one another, and the fact that EVERY mech has access to these healing options, makes health feel more disposable than it should.

 

In the beginning repair times were long and painful but there was a sense of danger, urgency when repairing, while wondering if there would be enough health to fight if found. The death orb (mech souls) gave a smaller portion of health but there was a feeling of reward and relief grabbing it from a downed target, but again had that same urgency felt from waiting for it to be absorbed. Removing most of health options added over time (and I mean completely remove, not nerf) OR changing the way health works would really help Hawkens gameplay, simplifying it. Will it increase the TTK initially? I have no doubt it will, but it will also make it and the pacing more manageable without having to worry about how these items and internals influence the effective health pool while balancing.

 

*sigh* I feel so much better now that is off my chest. Sorry for the essay but this was killing me.

TLDR: Too many health options, some have to go.

 

Spoiler

If I had to make a suggestion for changing the health system, I would say go the style of Halo; 2 health bars, Top layer is "ARMOR" bottom layer is the "CORE". I'm not suggesting automatic regenerating ARMOR though. ARMOR can be repaired with all of the available healing methods including self repair, but the CORE cannot. The CORE can only be repaired slowly with manual/self repair and that is it, so there is no guarantee that you will always be at full health. Keeps the current items in the game (or remove them) and make manual repair have some meaning again

Edited by ShadowWarg, 24 January 2016 - 07:28 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

I agree with the assessment.

 

I think the major culprits are the repair orbs. Slow manual repair/healer classes are fairly ubiquitous. A sidegrade culprit here is that non-repair oriented internals (minus AC) are just so underwhelming. If it really felt like a trade off to slap on a one slot reconstructor or repair kit, I'd have less of an issue.

I personally would enjoy seeing a total removal of health orbs as an item and a real cut to the amount that death orbs can grant you. Like, down to 30-45 health. Enough that it could decide a fight - but not practically guarantee it.

My recommendation for the above post though, is to remove the last item on the list - defense items/internals, as none directly impact health at all times and are largely conditional or require active and effective usage.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 24 January 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[Amidatelion]

I agree with the assessment. I think the major culprits are the repair orbs. Slow manual repair/healer class are fairly ubiquitous. A sidegrade culprit here is that non-repair oriented internals (minus AC) are just so underwhelming. If it really felt like a trade off to slap on a one slot reconstructor or repair kit, I'd have less of an issue.

I personally would enjoy seeing a total removal of health orbs as an item and a real cut to the amount that death orbs can grant you. Like, down to 30-45 health. Enough that it could decide a fight - but not practically guarantee it.

My recommendation for the above post though, is to remove the last item on the list - defense items/internals, as none directly impact health at all times and are largely conditional or require active and effective usage.

 

Just cut the item orbs down to death orbs' health pool and nerf orblord.

 

If you're staying alive too long, go punch above your weight class some.

[DallasCreeper]

If you're staying alive too long, go punch above your weight class some.

But what if Brawler?

[HubbaBubba9849]

I think to start, orb absorption rates should be cut in half and multiple orbs should stack logarithmically instead of linearly. Don't change orb capacity. That way, you can still get the same amount of health out of an orb, just in 6 seconds instead of 3.

 

Also, change the Extractor to increase the absorption distance rather than speed.

 

Leave self-repair rate and tech alone for now. One variable at a time.

Edited by HubbaBubba9849, 24 January 2016 - 07:53 PM.

[Amidatelion]

But what if Brawler?

 

Still not punching high enough.

[DallasCreeper]

Buff Brawler's Health Pool to 1000?

[ticklemyiguana]

I think to start, orb absorption rates should be cut in half and multiple orbs should stack logarithmically instead of linearly. Also, change the Extractor to increase the absorption distance rather than speed.

 

Leave orb capacity, self-repair rate, and tech alone for now. One variable at a time.

I'm not positive though. While yes, it would effect available health during a fight, fights are often not so immediate that a decrease in the rate will have a huge impact. Sure, it'll prevent stupidly tanky light mechs from surviving barrages of multiple mechs, but so would just straight cutting the available health.

 

In 1 on 1 fights, where the amount of health available is the critical factor, decreasing the rate won't do a whole lot.

[Sylhiri]

They lowered the TTK then increased the health options. Wut.

[HugeGuts]

I agree with two separate health bars.

Of course, the easiest solution is to just remove all of this healing, but considering this is a f2p game that has already accepted money for years, this is probably impossible.

In addition to separate health bars, I am also for the following:

o Changing health regen internals to no longer boost healing speeds or amount from orbs. How about the Extractor now increases orb absorption distance and the Repair Kit makes drone healing faster?
o Nerfing health orb item down to death orb values, and removing simultaneous healing from multiple orbs.

Edited by HugeGuts, 25 January 2016 - 12:50 AM.

[-Tj-]

I would prefer the orb absorption be capped, so instead of three orbs giving 3x the speed, it's 1x the speed, but 3x longer. Then the extractor makes the 1x speed faster. I remember seeing this suggested before, seemed to me like the best option.

[ATX22]

I agree with two separate health bars.

Of course, the easiest solution is to just remove all of this healing, but considering this is a f2p game that has already accepted money for years, this is probably impossible.

In addition to separate health bars, I am also for the following:

o Changing health regen internals to no longer boost healing speeds or amount from orbs. How about the Extractor now increases orb absorption distance and the Repair Kit makes drone healing faster?
o Nerfing health orb item down to death orb values, and removing simultaneous healing from multiple orbs.

 

Nah, it's not impossible, I'm sure they could remove entire mechs from the game if they wanted, EULAs usually don't protect YOU and ME, they only protect the company that is click-wrapping the agreement against you and me for their protection.  Isn't Hawken after all these years still in BETA too?  Everything could be "subject to change".  

 

I wonder what's changed though, in the past, suggesting the removal of pretty much any part of the healing system in Hawken outside of the tech and maybe the health orb internal usually got the locals here all worked up in a bad way. 

[Hyginos]

Currently when you take damage while repairing it disables the heal for about 1 second. 

 

This should apply to orbs, and maybe tech as well.

[HugeGuts]

Currently when you take damage while repairing it disables the heal for about 1 second. 

 

This should apply to orbs, and maybe tech as well.

 

Another simple, obvious solution to the healing problem.

 

Though if it were to apply to the Technician, then the Technician would need an offensive buff at the same time.

[StubbornPuppet]

I do not have a problem with the amount of health in Hawken.  I think it's fine.  It's one of the few great things keeping Hawken from being a twitch shooter clone and I even think we could use a bit more stock health put back into the mechs since the Steam move.

 

And I'm talking about the health pool, not the healing.

 

• The orb-lord meta is tiresome - time for that to be put to rest once and for all.  Dump health orbs from the items all together and replace them with an internal that improves the rate of healing from drones during the repair animation. And make it an expensive internal - so it gives players the option of having improved field healing, but avoids being the hands-down, go-to meta.

 

• Mech healing could probably be slowed down in general.

 

• The Tech needs adjustments.

[ShadowWarg]

Nah, it's not impossible, I'm sure they could remove entire mechs from the game if they wanted, EULAs usually don't protect YOU and ME, they only protect the company that is click-wrapping the agreement against you and me for their protection.  Isn't Hawken after all these years still in BETA too?  Everything could be "subject to change".  

 

I wonder what's changed though, in the past, suggesting the removal of pretty much any part of the healing system in Hawken outside of the tech and maybe the health orb internal usually got the locals here all worked up in a bad way. 

Smaller community in the forums I guess.

 

I also don't think its impossible to remove items or such from the game, its been done before and they just reimbursed players for the cost of the items. I personally just rather see most the items removed leaving only the manual repair and the tech. The death orbs maybe, but with a lower health gain and extraction speed like suggested.

[HugeGuts]

I also don't think its impossible to remove items or such from the game, its been done before and they just reimbursed players for the cost of the items. I personally just rather see most the items removed leaving only the manual repair and the tech. The death orbs maybe, but with a lower health gain and extraction speed like suggested.

 

If Reloaded will also reimburse removed items like ADH did, then, as I posted earlier, removing most healing methods is the easiest and most effective idea. Tech would still need the adjustments mentioned in this thread.

Edited by HugeGuts, 25 January 2016 - 07:37 AM.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

 IMO: drop the repair kit or change it to incresase the pickup range instead, have 3 orbs take three times longer to absorb and increase the number of time to absorb an orb bei 15% we're good to go.

[Sylhiri]

Nah, it's not impossible, I'm sure they could remove entire mechs from the game if they wanted, EULAs usually don't protect YOU and ME, they only protect the company that is click-wrapping the agreement against you and me for their protection.  Isn't Hawken after all these years still in BETA too?  Everything could be "subject to change".  

 

Reloaded had their chance to do this without much backlash when they took over the servers. When you start selling (and continue to sell) digital items the words "subject to change"  becomes a PR nightmare.

 

 

If Reloaded will also reimburse removed items like ADH did, then, as I posted earlier, removing most healing methods is the easiest and most effective idea. Tech would still need the adjustments mentioned in this thread.

 

Not sure about you but when ADH reimbursed items it gave me a large increase in HC to the point where I can buy the next ten mechs without problems. I'm not even sure if they still have a track record of who spent MC on what and even if they did that would take a lot of hours to get that done.

Edited by Sylhiri, 25 January 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[HugeGuts]

Two separate health bars would also open up new options for weapons, abilities, and internals. Examples:

 

- Weapons and Abilities -

Breacher - Charged Breacher shots now have Armor penetration.

Precision Overdrive - Now has Armor penetration in addition to increased accuracy.

 

- Internals -

Armor penetration for bullet weapons.

Armor penetration for explosive weapons.

Damage reduction to Armor from bullet weapons.

Damage reduction to Armor from explosive weapons.

 

All values would be by a percentage.

 

If the numbers are right - I'm thinking Core Health needs to be higher than Armor health - than these additions won't be OP while still providing noticeable benefits, because they help with the first "Phase" of the Health Bar, but then immediately lose all momentum when exiting from the "Armor" phase and moving on to the "Core" phase.

Edited by HugeGuts, 25 January 2016 - 11:22 AM.

[Sylhiri]

Two separate health bars would also open up new options for weapons, abilities, and internals. Examples:

 

- Weapons and Abilities -

Breacher - Charged Breacher shots now have Armor penetration.

Precision Overdrive - Now has Armor penetration in addition to increased accuracy.

 

- Internals -

Armor penetration for bullet weapons.

Armor penetration for explosive weapons.

Damage reduction to Armor from bullet weapons.

Damage reduction to Armor from explosive weapons.

 

All values would be by a percentage.

 

If the numbers are right - I'm thinking Core Health needs to be higher than Armor health - than these additions won't be OP while still providing noticeable benefits, because they help with the first "Phase" of the Health Bar, but then immediately lose all momentum when exiting from the "Armor" phase and moving on to the "Core" phase.

 

What about A classes? If the Core was 250-300 and the Armor was 50-85 (or so) then Armor Penetration would make them even weaker. Also if the Breacher penetrates the Shield item then it should lose all armor penetration if someone is in that shield, same if it penetrates more that one object/mech.

Edited by Sylhiri, 25 January 2016 - 12:12 PM.

[GalaxyRadio]

IF you guys delete the option to selfrepair, death orbs and healing items, you will ruin the whole balancing of this game instantly in a really really bad way, cause the team with technician would win 100% for sure. And i say this as a techlover, cause i play that mech most of the time.

 

Really bad idea.

 

Galaxy Radio

[Sylhiri]

IF you guys delete the option to selfrepair, death orbs and healing items, you will ruin the whole balancing of this game instantly in a really really bad way, cause the team with technician would win 100% for sure. And i say this as a techlover, cause i play that mech most of the time.

 

Really bad idea.

 

Galaxy Radio

 

We could always delete the Technician too :D

[HubbaBubba9849]

While we're at it, why don't we just delete the whole game? 

[nepacaka]

Of course, the easiest solution is to just remove all of this healing, but considering this is a f2p game that has already accepted money for years, this is probably impossible.
 

when you create account you agree with game rules
"this game is still in beta, and can be changed while development"
so, devs just can delete something, and it is normal. if you spent some MC to buy these things, they just return your money back.
easy. no problem here. even if devs delete tech, it is not a problem... cuz your agreed with rules :?

Edited by nepacaka, 25 January 2016 - 02:31 PM.

[Sylhiri]

While we're at it, why don't we just delete the whole game? 

 

I didn't know the Technician was equal to over a dozen mechs, nine or so maps, a couple game modes/items etc. Damn people love their TF2 bot.

[ShadowWarg]

Make it so when you die, you are deleted. Like Reboot or Tron

 

IF you guys delete the option to selfrepair, death orbs and healing items, you will ruin the whole balancing of this game instantly in a really really bad way, cause the team with technician would win 100% for sure. And i say this as a techlover, cause i play that mech most of the time.

 

Really bad idea.

 

Galaxy Radio

Well first off, no one is saying delete self repair. That alone was one of the key concepts of Hawken; self health management. Second, Right now throwing off what little balance thee is isn't a bad idea and can't possible hurt things with our numbers. Its because of our numbers that its the best time to throw things out of wack, as its easier to fix with a more dedicated player base who only want to bring this game back up again.

[CounterlogicMan]

TL:DR I think the priority balance issue of Hawken is the dominant strategy of "orblording". Repair kit + Extractor and Health orb Items are way to powerful when combined. Health orb items themselves are also too powerful. Maybe start by reducing their healing amount significantly. Don't change or remove the tech (aside from points from healing), your hate of it is misguided.

 

 

 

I don't really find the tech's healing problematic. Good tech pilots are hard to come by and have to play really well to stay alive in high mmr games. I do think the points granted from healing should be cut in half. That is really the only change I would like to see to the tech. It is a good mech that is harder to play the higher in mmr you get. It is a mech that has a lot of meaningful choices when in battle. More than some of the direct combat mechs. There are a lot of options in countering the tech as well.

 

The power of the tech only sometimes becomes an issue when combined with healing from item orbs and orb modifying internals. As do many of the perceived "problematic" mechs in Hawken. I think it has been agreed upon many times that item orbs are too powerful in their own right, not to mention when they are combined with repair kit and extractor. I like tickles idea of drastically reducing the amount of hp in the health orb items and maybe even reduce the death orbs hp amount. 

 

I really dislike when I see all of these accusations of Hawken being wildly unbalanced being thrown around. After playing through a lot of of what Hawken has to offer, I can say with confidence that it is pretty well balanced. The only real problems I see in Hawken's balance is some of the items/internals aren't attractive choices, and orblording is still a thing after all this time of players from all skill levels saying it is an issue. Also, EOC and hellfire dumbfire need a slight buff, nothing major.

 

I am sure Capnjosh is aware of this as a balance issue. Still worth discussing regardless. 

 

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 25 January 2016 - 05:44 PM.

[Onstrava]

The first thing they can do is remove the orbs that drop from died mechs and healing based internals, not a fan of that myself. Second thing they could do is make it where you can only use healing orb items when you get out of combat for lets say 6 seconds, after an engagement. This makes orbs restricted to people fighting and letting it become more of a support class thing. People would put orbs down before an engagement at a choke point for things like siege. While in team death match, people with orbs would need to think before jumping into a fight. Setting down there orbs in a healing area that is safe from bullet fire in a similar way as siege. People in death match wouldn't likely take orb items because it's a free for all, not much time to set down healing orbs. All this would mean is  that healing with your drone will become more important than ever and classes like the tech will become more integrated into a team. I wont say anything about tech balance because we've all heard the story before, it needs to be balanced and there are good ideas out there to do this or just remove it, dev choice of course. If the devs where to use a similar idea like this then they wouldn't need to do much of anything to the tech at all after that besides simple tweaks.

[IronClamp]

The woes of a skilled player.

 

Yes, the excessive healing is an issue, but only for veteran players. The systems are there for a reason: new players. If all the healing options were narrowed to say self-repair and technicians, new players would put down the game in frustration because they weren't getting heals or kept dying every time they went to heal themselves, not a problem in a match of Seige, but a big problem in TDM and Missile Assault, where there are no dedicated bases to retreat to. Now this would foster a greater need for team cooperation, but it would make Hawken the Dark Souls of mech shooters. Difficult to get into, but wonderful to master.

[ticklemyiguana]

The woes of a skilled player.

 

Yes, the excessive healing is an issue, but only for veteran players. The systems are there for a reason: new players. If all the healing options were narrowed to say self-repair and technicians, new players would put down the game in frustration because they weren't getting heals or kept dying every time they went to heal themselves, not a problem in a match of Seige, but a big problem in TDM and Missile Assault, where there are no dedicated bases to retreat to. Now this would foster a greater need for team cooperation, but it would make Hawken the Dark Souls of mech shooters. Difficult to get into, but wonderful to master.

I'm genuinely confused. Every time I play with new players, they avoid orbs like frosty the snowman avoids actually lighting his pipe. The orbs always always always appear to benefit people who have played more than newer players. Once veteran players get thrown into the mix, it's just yet another way for a skilled player to stomp around the server.

[DallasCreeper]

I just saw a Rocketeer with the replenisher. (It's the 3-slot Internal that reduces Ability cooldown on a kill or assist. Turret mode does not have a cooldown.)

[crockrocket]

I just saw a Rocketeer with the replenisher. (It's the 3-slot Internal that reduces Ability cooldown on a kill or assist. Turret mode does not have a cooldown.)

I mean I have a failsafe on my sharpie

[Hyginos]

I mean I have a failsafe on my sharpie

 

Detonators.

[Sylhiri]

I really dislike when I see all of these accusations of Hawken being wildly unbalanced being thrown around. After playing through a lot of of what Hawken has to offer, I can say with confidence that it is pretty well balanced. The only real problems I see in Hawken's balance is some of the items/internals aren't attractive choices, and orblording is still a thing after all this time of players from all skill levels saying it is an issue. Also, EOC and hellfire dumbfire need a slight buff, nothing major.

 

Personally I don't think Hawken is wildly unbalanced but there is a lot of little things, little annoyances that add up to lower the enjoyment of the game. When I've had conversations with people about Hawken's problems they name 2-3 things, only when I ask them directly "what about x or x" that they start thinking of other things to add to the list. I think the game has stagnated and to those people who are so used to what the game is they don't really see anything more then what bothers them in the current build and how they play. Hawken can't survive in it's current state and something does need to change for it to survive as scary as that sounds. Balance wise, currently it's just as you said it's basically balanced for the people who play it currently.

 

I could be wrong, Reloaded could just add some new mechs and maps and the game could be saved with people flooding in but to me, Hawken is repetition.

[StubbornPuppet]

^Yeah, this isn't as bad as it seems.

[IronClamp]

I'm genuinely confused. Every time I play with new players, they avoid orbs like frosty the snowman avoids actually lighting his pipe. The orbs always always always appear to benefit people who have played more than newer players. Once veteran players get thrown into the mix, it's just yet another way for a skilled player to stomp around the server.

 

Yes, but the design purpose is still there, they exist to benefit new players. But yes, new players aren't as clued in to this as veteran players.

[Sylhiri]

Yes, but the design purpose is still there, they exist to benefit new players. But yes, new players aren't as clued in to this as veteran players.

 

I heard the devs say that the Technician was designed for new players, I have never heard that death orbs or repair orbs are designed for new players. Actually I don't think any item was designed with new players in mind.

Edited by Sylhiri, 26 January 2016 - 02:21 PM.

[EM1O]

reduce repair orbs intake to serial intake: sitting on a pile you still can't intake faster than if you had only one.

eliminate deth orbs

eliminate self-repair

buff the Tech. these will create a whole new game macro.

or

reduce repair orbs as above

eliminate the Tech.

or create servers with either or both of the above environments.

you now have a New Hawken with fresh, new whines.

[Nightfirebolt]

This topic has popped up repeatedly. Everybody - including the new devs - knows it needs to be addressed.

 

I wish we would get a new patch soon so we would have something new to talk about. :\

Edited by Nightfirebolt, 26 January 2016 - 05:02 PM.