33 replies to this topic

[CZeroFive]

Scout: Increased the time it takes to dodge.

G1: (0.8s -> 1.2s)

G2: (0.8s -> 1.1s)

 

Brawler: Decreased the total max armor value.

G1: (850 -> 800)

G2: (900 -> 810)

 

 

NOTE: The above will not be reflected on tooltips in the garage. Only effective in gameplay.

[DingdongJR]

[DerMax]

YOU WHAT!?!? EH! GIME MY DODGE CD BACK!!!

[Amidatelion]

Now taking bets as to how that affects end-user experience.  

 

Currently offering 50-1 that no noticeable improvements will be had.

Edited by Amidatelion, 26 July 2017 - 12:38 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

I concur with Amid.

[6ixxer]

Then you find out they changed it a week ago and no one noticed...

[ArchMech]

babaji forum post restriction got axed, babaji noticed

[Morquedeas]

I'm actually starting to wonder if this is that bad of a change.

 

Comparing the G2 variants to their pre-Howken version, Scout has 20 less hp and .1 seconds longer dodge cd, while Brawler has 10 more hp and .3 seconds longer dodge cd.

 

Both these mechs were top tier even before they received the massive buffs they got in the soft launch, so nerfing them is a good thing, even if the way it was done wasn't exactly how I would have gone about it.

 

And people saying this doesn't help newbies, previously, we have .7 second dodge cd scout.  Thanks the the questionable inclusion of 1 slot air compressors, literally every hotshot scrublord scout player was breaking the turncap every .7 seconds.  Seeing this happen .4 seconds less frequently helps everyone hit scouts.

 

While nerfing the overtuned mechs is a step in the right direction, it might not have been the best way to go about it, but we'll have to see.  Players always spaz out when changes like this occur.  I think they should revert to the 1/1.2/1.4 second dodge cd for the A, B, and C class mechs, respectively, until they really know what they are doing.

[coldform]

KEEP IT COMIN

[nepacaka]

Scout: Increased the time it takes to dodge.

G1: (0.8s -> 1.2s)

G2: (0.8s -> 1.1s)

 

Brawler: Decreased the total max armor value.

G1: (850 -> 800)

G2: (900 -> 810)

 

 

NOTE: The above will not be reflected on tooltips in the garage. Only effective in gameplay.

wat the fock is dis?

RIP scout
RIP brawler

fuzzing G2 maradeur have a 30m/s speed, and 720 HP, when the brawler is a slowest mech and have 810? fuzzy bunny you.

instead do something really need (like nerf all sustain weapons to -5 DPS) you kill mechs which are actually sux.
ok. brawler not sux like scout, but he never be imba in terms of 6vs6 matches, where it sux by speed, and especially have a discomfort on big maps.

fuzzying g2-sasalt have a ~585 HP, which is overbuffed now and literally one of the "nub-shredder" mech.
36m and Civ have useles abilities, but you can't do something with it, instead you kill scout and nerf brawler (there are was a time when brawler got a buff?). fix armor internal atleast, cuz it useless.

fuzzying super-slow speed, low DPS, slowest dodge, and now it lose HP advantage (i forgot notice that is also low radar, and 6 sec overheat value, wich is worst time in game too). which sense it have?
only one thing which brawler have is HP. and now you delete it.

U NUBS, I CAN AGREE WITH THIS NERF ONLY IF YOU BUFF FLAK-CANNON DAMAGE TO 120-125!

Edited by nepacaka, 26 July 2017 - 11:11 PM.

[Gueber]

U wanna help noobs? Give brawlers enough turn speed to actually have a chance of tracking the flies running circles around them.

[nepacaka]

it is also patetic due the all other g2-mechs have a different buff like +15-30 HP, -1 sec dodge, and other stuff like walking speed. you literally change Brawler to prepatch stats when it have 800 HP. but before RLD-patch brawler have 1.4 sec dodge which helkp him with his slow speed, now it is 1.7, so it is not working like before.
especially if compared with other new C-class mech, which all have quite the same HP (700 average) but all of they have much higher speed and dodge (as for C-class of course).

like g2-inci which have infinite healing, highest dps guns, and have a speed near with assault. vanguard - one of the top dps C's with highest speed close to assault, and other stuff. and all of these C-class mechs have all other stats (like radar, overheat, walking speed) better than brawler have.

just right now brawler is an old and rusty washtub, against the background of other mechs, and brawler still CAN simply because the pilots playing on the brawlers are good. Look at how the nubs play on brawlers, their effectiveness in battle quite close to zero, due the brawler is slow. most of players even not play on it, because mechs like vanguard/inci shred everything with overbuffed DPS. most popular mech in random is a van, inci, which dps or speed should be decreased long time ago.


as for scout, u nerf lowest HP mech, which can't survive without dodge.
at the same time, stupid one-button mechs like kerby and some others, have a 1 sec. dodge and higher hp/dps than scout. fuzzy what? where is the logic of this changes?
i can play on kerby with AC, or bers, and shred nubs much more better and faster than scout can.

Edited by nepacaka, 26 July 2017 - 11:29 PM.

[Lion_ThunderPants]

as for scout, u nerf lowest HP mech, which can't survive without dodge.
at the same time, stupid one-button mechs like kerby and some others, have a 1 sec. dodge and higher hp/dps than scout. fuzzy what? where is the logic of this changes?
i can play on kerby with AC, or bers, and shred nubs much more better and faster than scout can.

+1

I don't see a reason to ever touch the Scout now. It has nothing going for it now but straight-line speed. So it's essentially a reworked Charge, another useless mech. Terrible decisions...

[Amidatelion]

+1

I don't see a reason to ever touch the Scout now. It has nothing going for it now but straight-line speed. So it's essentially a reworked Charge, another useless mech. Terrible decisions...

 

Problem with the hotfix in a nutshell.  

 

Scrubs think it's a nerf, vets are still gonna stomp in it.

 

Derives from a fundamental failure to understand game mechanics.

[Gueber]

Well I can't speak for scouts but I was already resigned to give up my brawler main and playing legacy assault instead, and that was before they nerfed it a 2nd time. It hasn't been a competitive mech for a long time, despite people who keep saying it was top tier but you never seen them actually playing it.

[nabla_]

The brawler is worse than ever!

[Lion_ThunderPants]

Problem with the hotfix in a nutshell.  
 
Scrubs think it's a nerf, vets are still gonna stomp in it.
 
Derives from a fundamental failure to understand game mechanics.

Could you explain why it's still in-line with the sustain options of AR Infil or Berserker? I'm glad to be wrong in my thinking but if I'm fighting someone on even terms with my skill, I can't really see why I'd want to choose the Scout because it feels like this change is creating a clear downside to using it as opposed to my previously mentioned choices? Please keep in mind, I'm ignoring stomping lobbies because it's easy to do with most mechs.

[CZeroFive]

Problem with the hotfix in a nutshell.  

 

Scrubs think it's a nerf, vets are still gonna stomp in it.

 

Derives from a fundamental failure to understand game mechanics.

 

We'll see if data aligns up with what you are saying. Players who had a MMR of 2000 or higher always favored the scout and typically had most of their kills on players 800 or more MMR difference than their MMR.

 

The brawler was a close second.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

We'll see if data aligns up with what you are saying. Players who had a MMR of 2000 or higher always favored the scout and typically had most of their kills on players 800 or more MMR difference than their MMR.

 

The brawler was a close second.

 

Pfft. I kill smurfs and good players too.  Can you correlate MY scout kills with smurfs?  If they are in a three-star for me, at 2000 or higher, then they flat out deserve what they get.
 

Shall I play with these new cooldowns and rek face anyway?

[Amidatelion]

We'll see if data aligns up with what you are saying. Players who had a MMR of 2000 or higher always favored the scout and typically had most of their kills on players 800 or more MMR difference than their MMR.

The brawler was a close second.

Again, you don't want to see those players on more technically capable mechs.

Example: hestoned plays scout for fun

He played Gren to win.

[Z1Alpha]

Besides looking at kills, try looking at the deaths in each of those mechs. I place my money on the Scout having probably* three times the amount of deaths the Brawler has. You can get a lot of kills in both, scouts more SIMPLY because of its speed and alignment against nubs, which is safe to say that's the only thing that remains (nubs).

 

It's good to cater to the player base at hand and fix what they are dying too. I understand that. Stats of the Scout are not a problem though, it's just a lack of understanding or skill in the game, and a mech should not be nerfed into a coffin cause THICC-ER BOI's STILL can't remain calm and hit one tow. People (They are not people LuL they are nubs.I know an elitist phrase REEE) don't understand placement and mechanics, besides the obvious "aim and it will die." (Not that they can do that either). 

 

What I'm trying to say is that scouts kills OR stats are not a problem. It hasn't been one since the early years of Hawken. Well I mean now it is with this update.**

 

The Scout is the one mech that can provide the most enjoyment or fun (or if that's to "subjective" for you), adrenaline the game can offer. So of course people who know EVERY nook, every cranny, EVERY detail about the game would resort to speed and timing. A fast paced glass cannon. High risk, high reward. Once a competent player joins in as a fat mech the game turns into a standoff to see what noob can feed the most OR what "pro" is willing to sacrifice a win for fun. (If you ever call playing against fatties fun...) 

 

 

 

Once a pro joins in a Brawler or Assault either you switch to the same mech OR you lose immensely. 

Amid's post above about Hestoned is THE P R I M E example. 

 

----

 

TL;DR scout don't need NO dang NO nerf just cause 1/6 people can't land ONE TOW or a couple of sustained shots. Especially those who cant hit a tow under NOTTA ZIP ZERO SQUINCH PRESSURE CAUSE YOU LEAVE YOUR CHUBBY, STOUT, OVERWEIGHT GREASY  $CHEAP$ HP TO DEAL WITH YOUR problems of not being able to hit a mech.

 

 

On a personal note (That's right the OPINION part of this text cause the rest is 100% FACT ) I'm 85% unlikely to change mechs during a match, as I'd rather tell the noobs to just go fat and tank through hits and yes this update made me salty cause its really not what I want to see or what needs to be fix at the moment. Brawler is OP and I don't care to add onto that cause I AM THE salty vet.  

 

 

(**Added in for clarification)

Edited by Z1Alpha, 27 July 2017 - 11:00 PM.

[nepacaka]

i can kill people with brawler.
but, can you realize that if i'm start use G2-CRT i can increase my final score twice...

just right now i'm specially start play against nubs on TV or vanguard, and they will greatly regret that I do not play on the brawler. I promise that they will suffer more than ever before.

as for brawler, he got a great nerf. now he can survive 1-2 TOW in face less (based on some damage which you get from enemies primary weapon). it is a great nerf, especially for flak-brawler. not for SA-brawler.
it is all about previous devs brawler vision. brawler always be like "Huge HP, but nothing else". at least, give him 850 hp for g2, because +10 HP is a very "ultimate" stats. 850 can be good i think.
 

We'll see if data aligns up with what you are saying. Players who had a MMR of 2000 or higher always favored the scout and typically had most of their kills on players 800 or more MMR difference than their MMR.

 

The brawler was a close second.

you statistic is quite sux c05.
if you trying to play in random, you wil notice, that they are only players which playing on it. because like i say, newbie player suffer A LOT when they trying to play at brawler. you can also notice, that the brawler is a very rare mech in random. 90% time any match have a vanguard, raider, assult, incinirator, tech, infiltrator, bers, rockee.
most of time when i play on brawler, i'm the only one brawler in both team.

at the same time, if 2000+ player use other mech with insane DPS instead brawler, the difference in score can be much higher, for example. due the mechs like Bers or TV killing people X2 faster, don't spent time to overheat, and can shoot from any range without problems.
 

 

incinirator + tech still cause much more problems, than brawler + tech, due the highest DPS, and no heat. but it is still not nerfed/changed (it should be done a year ago, when players talk about it).  instead you nerfed brawler. 
should i notice, that since 2012 brawler always got nerf. always. i don't know any other mech in game which always got nerfs everytime.

and fuzzy bunnyng brawler STILL DONT HAVE ABILITY! and the sustain weapons still great in terms of whole match time and general effeciency in a 6vs6.

brawler always be imba 1vs1, i can agree with this, but not in 6vs6, where brawler always suffer from his own teammates, overheat, and speed, (especially now, when he can't moving fast like boost+dodge, due the 1.7 sec dodge c/d which is also hidden speed nerf for brawler after patch), if we not talk about origin or uptown.


the second thing about brawler (my own opinion) - this mech is very interesting to play for me, because you should deal with his many disadvantages. you should stay at position before enemies. you can't change positions fast, and if you got situation 1vs2, you deal with it. you can't runaway, all what you can do is retreat and shooting with flak/tow, and hope that your teammates goes to help you (which is 50/50 in random), deal with super small range, deal with high flak overheat, deal with low DPS, deal with big and open maps, because if enemy with higher DPS catch you in a open space, you dead. some mech are also can over DPS you from 5m range, just because flak-cannon now is not a "scaryest" weapon as it should be against many of sustain weapons.

it is a things, which i don't care when i playing G2-TV. i just shooting, and if i'm overheat, i press F. if team leave me alone, i press shift+s and runaway (if i want). and i know, that i can over DPS many mechs because SMC is good. all of this is not a problems, if you are not in brawler.



 

Edited by nepacaka, 27 July 2017 - 11:53 PM.

[Morquedeas]

I think I'm actually going to support the changes.

 

Sure it's not how I would have done it, but overall, the game is more balanced now, even if it's not perfect it's closer than it was with 900 hp brawlers and .7 second dodge cd scouts.

 

Again, Scout and Brawler were top tier before being buffed, they've been nerfed relative to their pre-buff state, which is what was been needed.

 

People seem to be focusing too much on how this affects new players, when they could be looking at the big picture.

 

And as usually, people are making a big fuss about things.

Edited by Morquedeas, 28 July 2017 - 12:10 AM.

[nepacaka]

I think I'm actually going to support the changes.

 

 

1) you forgot, that all other mechs got buff. (HP buff. when brawler politics always be you got HP, but all other stats is worse)
2) nubs always sux on brawler/scout in pre-patch, pro always be good at scout/brawler in pre patch.

should i post some screens where i have ~2000 score points in siege at CRT, when all other players have less than 1000 score?

current changes is nothing more than kill flak-brawler and flak-scout. RIP. it have nothing with balance. SA-brawler still can be good. heat-scout probably will be the same too (i don't check it bacoz don't love play on it long time)
 

Edited by nepacaka, 28 July 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[nepacaka]

the real truth it is not brawler or scout was imba.

just right now game have a lot of mechs which literally sux. 
bruiser - sux. Heat/EOK rockee - sux, t32-pred - sux, 36m - sux (but not against nubs), civ - sux, jobs - sux.
alot of mech which is just not worth to play it. they are hard to play, they are less efficiency even if you play good, and put all you skill in it. TV (or brawler, van, bers, is just better and simple to play)

it is not because brawler imba, it is because half of mech loadout sux too much, and anyone who trying play on it - sux. And there alot of mech combinations which shred everything so easy, but why i don't see nerf imba raider which flying with super-sonic speed and annihilate everyone with reflak35?
why i don't see fix of assault and TV which have insane time to overheat which allow the deal insane damage in terms of whole match?
why i don't see fix inci+tech combo, and inci damage in general, which is ridiculous to see how "support role mech" have a higher DPS than other C-classes which positioned as a "damage dealer role"?
why i don't see berserk ability nerf like +5% damage every 30 sec, instead high % every 50 sec, which lead to suicidal behaviour to kill any mech, than die to refresh ability and repeat?
why vanguard shields have imba armor+imba speed, while other C's (rockee, 36m, brawler) have totally useless ability which can't save you from bullets in frontal projection?

Who will fix all of this?

Edited by nepacaka, 28 July 2017 - 01:19 AM.

[Gueber]

LOL vanguard way faster + has the best turret mode (40% damage taken vs brawlers 90%), it's more then twice as better at turtling. Vanguard is way faster so it can actually get into position, brawler is just a slow meat shield with no damage resistance that can't get to the fight in time. The only thing worse is a 36m in turret mode trying to get to the fight.

 

 

 

[Evacerberus]

At this point, what makes purchasing a G2 Brawler worth it? It has 10 more Hp and...? It's slow, and usually easy to deal with, and it's ability is pretty much null, I find myself using turret mode ONLY in a Vanguard, and only when I know it's a good choke-point to defend. Not so much in Brawler, only a 10% reduction for the loss of what mobility you had...not worth it, often times. Nice I suppose when you are alone and can use it to heal, but besides that... All that said though, while I am not stoked about the way you are re-balancing the game, I can say I'm happy you guys are paying attention and tweaking it. I realize my personal experience may not be able to say anything as definitive as the metrics or statistics you all have at your hand, so my bad if I seem like I'm whining over something silly, but nonetheless, thank you for keeping this game alive up to this point.

[Morquedeas]

At this point, what makes purchasing a G2 Brawler worth it? It has 10 more Hp and...? It's slow, and usually easy to deal with, and it's ability is pretty much null, I find myself using turret mode ONLY in a Vanguard, and only when I know it's a good choke-point to defend. Not so much in Brawler, only a 10% reduction for the loss of what mobility you had...not worth it, often times. Nice I suppose when you are alone and can use it to heal, but besides that... All that said though, while I am not stoked about the way you are re-balancing the game, I can say I'm happy you guys are paying attention and tweaking it. I realize my personal experience may not be able to say anything as definitive as the metrics or statistics you all have at your hand, so my bad if I seem like I'm whining over something silly, but nonetheless, thank you for keeping this game alive up to this point.

 

Vg is defintely in a nice spot after the buffs it got in the soft launch, whether they were too much or not I can't say, although it was sub-par before so it did need SOME buffs. 

 

Turret modes are almost universally terrible against mildly competent players so I wouldn't bother including them in any discussion of balance.

 

Generally the brawler's superior weaponry would be why you choose brawler over vg.

[coldform]

we shall see if longer dodge CD will have any effect on a proficient scout player. I don't think it's gonna be much of a difference, I would just keep my escape routes closer from now on.

 

another note: the cooldown for the dodge doesn't effect the dodge's ability to move well past the turning speed of any mech at close range.

 

any mech.

Edited by coldform, 28 July 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[6ixxer]

Sometimes you need to make a fair jump to know when something goes too far, then bring it back; Otherwise you could end up boiling the frog.

[coldform]

Sometimes you need to make a fair jump to know when something goes too far, then bring it back; Otherwise you could end up boiling the frog.

 

You make a good point, but instead of raising the temperature of the water dramatically, they just increased the amount of hot water. I don't think that it will have an effect on the frog either way.

Edited by coldform, 28 July 2017 - 07:51 PM.

[Morquedeas]

we shall see if longer dodge CD will have any effect on a proficient scout player. I don't think it's gonna be much of a difference, I would just keep my escape routes closer from now on.

 

another note: the cooldown for the dodge doesn't effect the dodge's ability to move well past the turning speed of any mech at close range.

 

any mech.

 

I think this change might cause Scouts to play more carefully, and move the mech more to a flanker/hit and run burst mech, and away from it's previous potential as a yolo diver cable of diving into a team and securing kills by mashing shift.  Scout with a .7 second dance was not good.  Honestly, I'd bring it's dodge to 1 second, and knock off a little boost speed, mostly on the G2 (as a Raider main, being slower than a Scout while blitzing triggers me).

 

And you are right, this won't stop Scout's from breaking the turncap, but it will decrease the frequency.  I think the next step would be to rebalance the new air compressors, shortening the dodge distance of the smaller ones.  AC's have always given a tremendous amount of utility, shortening the dodge will make the 1 slot AC less of an auto pick up.

[Ezodev]

Yeah, fuzzy bunny the scouts some moar.

[dorobo]

Ah this.. i cameback to play for a couple of days now and last night it really felt off dodging in a scout so this explains it i guess.