248 replies to this topic

[Phos]

Pretty sure that the collision detection issues you speak of are more related to ping and this game's seeming lack of any latency compensation.

[Sylhiri]

SuicideNeil, on May 04 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Glad to see Facility finished- when will it support Seige mode_

Unless they made it bigger that map is way too small for Seige. It's a nice TDM map though, missile is "ok".

Edited by Sylhiri, May 04 2013 - 03:54 PM.

[deBoru]

The Tech doesn't need to be nerfed... if you can't take out a Tech then you must either be going into combat with someone twice your skill level or twice your HP.

I love how everyone whines about the Tech's heat and repair abilities. The damage it does is the balancing factor for both of these. The devs won't put out a class that can't defend itself... if you don't want to be killed by a mech, then don't play the game.

Also, just because a dev doesn't say "Yeah I'll get right on that and change it exactly how you want it" doesn't make them arrogant. The devs are gracious enough to use the community to analyse the game and put our concerns on a list of changes that they can propose.

Just as that 10 million didn't come from one person. Niether will any change in the game.

[Silk_Sk]

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Guiotine, on May 04 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Houruck, on May 04 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Watch the last episode of The Cockpit. Hughes said they are deliberately not sharing hard numbers but rather just how the "changes feel like".

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.

Pfffff, hahaha.

And the changes feel like the best weapons are still the best weapons and the worst weapons are still the worst weapons.

I like how you ignored everything else Silk said.

Why would I need to address them_  The basis for his argument was that adhesive (somehow) didn't have the numbers for their weapons. They clearly do and made the decision not to release them.

Phos isn't arguing. He just likes thinking the devs do what they do just to be jerks instead of considering they might have real, legitimate reasons that lie outside his limited understanding of game development.

Edited by Silk_Sk, May 04 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[Phos]

deBoru, on May 04 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

The Tech doesn't need to be nerfed... if you can't take out a Tech then you must either be going into combat with someone twice your skill level or twice your HP.

I love how everyone whines about the Tech's heat and repair abilities. The damage it does is the balancing factor for both of these. The devs won't put out a class that can't defend itself... if you don't want to be killed by a mech, then don't play the game.

Also, just because a dev doesn't say "Yeah I'll get right on that and change it exactly how you want it" doesn't make them arrogant. The devs are gracious enough to use the community to analyse the game and put our concerns on a list of changes that they can propose.

Just as that 10 million didn't come from one person. Niether will any change in the game.

The main issue with the tech isn't its damage dealing capability (which is way too good as it is, but more on that later), it's that its healing ability encourages stalemates, traveling as a single giant group, and strengthens defender's advantage.  

On its own, combining the RPR with the offensive repair torch, the tech can 1v1 any light mech and can run away from anything heavier due to it being a light.  If he gets the torch on you before your first shot hits him, he's essentially "got you" and you'll be hard pressed to out damage his heal before you either die or overheat and his DPS from the torch is basically guaranteed.  

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Guiotine, on May 04 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Houruck, on May 04 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Watch the last episode of The Cockpit. Hughes said they are deliberately not sharing hard numbers but rather just how the "changes feel like".

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.

Pfffff, hahaha.

And the changes feel like the best weapons are still the best weapons and the worst weapons are still the worst weapons.

I like how you ignored everything else Silk said.

Why would I need to address them_  The basis for his argument was that adhesive (somehow) didn't have the numbers for their weapons. They clearly do and made the decision not to release them.

Phos isn't arguing. He just likes thinking the devs do what they do just to be jerks instead of considering they might have real, legitimate reasons that lie outside his limited understanding of game development.

I have no idea why you continue think Adhesive doesn't have a list of all the weapon values, that would be pretty disorganized on their part if they didn't, or that they would somehow calculate the percent change of everything they changed without having the raw numbers.  They'd be some legitimate mathemagicians to pull that off.

[Silk_Sk]

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.
Phos isn't arguing. He just likes thinking the devs do what they do just to be jerks instead of considering they might have real, legitimate reasons that lie outside his limited understanding of game development.

I have no idea why you continue think Adhesive doesn't have a list of all the weapon values, that would be pretty disorganized on their part if they didn't, or that they would somehow calculate the percent change of everything they changed without having the raw numbers.  They'd be some legitimate mathemagicians to pull that off.

All you're proving is that you didn't read my post. This is real game development, not something a few guys are putting together in their basement. You're acting like the numbers are important to them. They're not. They have much bigger priorites. Yes, they can get the numbers, but they have to sift through several different departments and builds to verify the ones we as players are dealing with in the game. And those numbers are changing constantly because the company is not a singular entity where everyone knows what everyone else is doing at all times and is working accordingly. The product we are playing right now is NOT the product they are familiar with. The product they are familiar with right now is one we will be familiar with several months from now. They can't tell you what the numbers are any more than you can tell me exactly what you ate three months ago and how many calories each bite was. In order to get what you want they will have to travel back in time across multiple planes until they find it and ascertain its accuracy (and they won't be accurate because why would they be_ It was months ago). Maybe once the game gets out of beta they can find the time to get all those numbers.

Edited by Silk_Sk, May 04 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[deBoru]

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

The main issue with the tech isn't its damage dealing capability (which is way too good as it is, but more on that later), it's that its healing ability encourages stalemates, traveling as a single giant group, and strengthens defender's advantage.  

On its own, combining the RPR with the offensive repair torch, the tech can 1v1 any light mech and can run away from anything heavier due to it being a light.  If he gets the torch on you before your first shot hits him, he's essentially "got you" and you'll be hard pressed to out damage his heal before you either die or overheat and his DPS from the torch is basically guaranteed.  

But there is an extremely simple way to break the repair torch's beam... just boost towards them at a 10 degree angle to pass them then 180 it or put something between you and beam... it instantly breaks the stream. You just need to know the formula for the weapon just like beating Rockets.

The ONLY thing that I see as an acceptable nerf to the Helix Torch is to make it's deconstruction beam less sticky or make it so at least to get it stuck you need to have the reticle on them.

[SuicideNeil]

deBoru, on May 04 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

But there is an extremely simple way to break the repair torch's beam... just boost towards them at a 10 degree angle to pass them then 180 it or put something between you and beam... it instantly breaks the stream. You just need to know the formula for the weapon just like beating Rockets.

The ONLY thing that I see as an acceptable nerf to the Helix Torch is to make it's deconstruction beam less sticky or make it so at least to get it stuck you need to have the reticle on them.

You seem to have ignored all the other main issues though, such as constant self healing when healing another mech ( heal 2 mechs at once, because that isn't unbalanced at all, nope... ) self heal when other mech is already fully healed, low heat generation ( it is very low compared to most other weapons ), ability to heal when using death ray- all you seem to focus on is how to avoid the death ray.

Feel free to actually read some posts yourself and stop ignoring all the other pertinent issues raised.

And I didn't say the investment came from one person ( it did come from one company as I understand it however- same thing ), you just failed to read my post correctly.

I don't expect devs to pander to every single persons wants and desires, but I do expect them to acknowledge that some changes they introduce fundamently are bad ideas and game breakers, but they fail to even acknowledge many of these serious issues and just continue with their road map regardless of how many people raise the same issues over & over again.

Also, Facility is not really any smaller than Origin- the silos/eu stations are perfectly well spaced ( look at Origin- you can boost from one end of the map to the other pretty much without needing to slow down in an A-class ) and it would be simple enough to tack a base on either side so that no team has any real advantage over the other in terms of distance to travel, unlike on Bazaar....

[Gunmoku]

Scapes, on May 03 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Mechs

• Increased all mechs starting armor by 50.
  
  • Designer's Note: We wanted to increase time-to-kill (TTK) for all mechs and decided on a flat rate over a percentage. With a too much of a percentage, trying to kill a Type-C mechs would push overheating limits. If we made the percentage too small, Type-A mechs TTK will still be too short. We'll be watching for player feedback and gameplay data to determine if this first step towards a TTK sweet spot is in need of tweaking in future patches.

I kind of like this in particular.  On paper, this is a VERY easy and simple solution to get rid of some insta-gibbing on midget-mechs and increases TTK without having to get so granular you end up over-tuning certain weapons and under-tuning others.  I think this is a wise move because you're not changing the entire game (again) and you're doing it across the board without having to take forever to properly buff and nerf everything.  Can't wait to try this.

[deBoru]

SuicideNeil, on May 04 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

deBoru, on May 04 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

But there is an extremely simple way to break the repair torch's beam... just boost towards them at a 10 degree angle to pass them then 180 it or put something between you and beam... it instantly breaks the stream. You just need to know the formula for the weapon just like beating Rockets.

The ONLY thing that I see as an acceptable nerf to the Helix Torch is to make it's deconstruction beam less sticky or make it so at least to get it stuck you need to have the reticle on them.

You seem to have ignored all the other main issues though, such as constant self healing when healing another mech ( heal 2 mechs at once, because that isn't unbalanced at all, nope... ) self heal when other mech is already fully healed, low heat generation ( it is very low compared to most other weapons ), ability to heal when using death ray- all you seem to focus on is how to avoid the death ray.

Feel free to actually read some posts yourself and stop ignoring all the other pertinent issues raised.

And I didn't say the investment came from one person ( it did come from one company as I understand it however- same thing ), you just failed to read my post correctly.

I don't expect devs to pander to every single persons wants and desires, but I do expect them to acknowledge that some changes they introduce fundamently are bad ideas and game breakers, but they fail to even acknowledge many of these serious issues and just continue with their road map regardless of how many people raise the same issues over & over again.

Also, Facility is not really any smaller than Origin- the silos/eu stations are perfectly well spaced ( look at Origin- you can boost from one end of the map to the other pretty much without needing to slow down in an A-class ) and it would be simple enough to tack a base on either side so that no team has any real advantage over the other in terms of distance to travel, unlike on Bazaar....

if you had read my first post you'd have seen that I already dismissed those and concentrated on it's abilities as a damage dealer. The devs can't just release a mech that can't defend itself. It's low dps is a set back that makes up for the heat.

As for multiple Techs healing a mech. That's more of a core mechanic issue than a Technician issue.

But once again I was concentrated on it's abilities as a damage dealer.

[SS396]

Is this the patch thats going to quit overwriting our ini files_ Seems that should be noted if it is, as thats pretty important to everyone.

[ShadowWarg]

Gunmoku, on May 04 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Scapes, on May 03 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Mechs

• Increased all mechs starting armor by 50.
  
  • Designer's Note: We wanted to increase time-to-kill (TTK) for all mechs and decided on a flat rate over a percentage. With a too much of a percentage, trying to kill a Type-C mechs would push overheating limits. If we made the percentage too small, Type-A mechs TTK will still be too short. We'll be watching for player feedback and gameplay data to determine if this first step towards a TTK sweet spot is in need of tweaking in future patches.

I kind of like this in particular.  On paper, this is a VERY easy and simple solution to get rid of some insta-gibbing on midget-mechs and increases TTK without having to get so granular you end up over-tuning certain weapons and under-tuning others.  I think this is a wise move because you're not changing the entire game (again) and you're doing it across the board without having to take forever to properly buff and nerf everything.  Can't wait to try this.

I don't know, I mean yea I like the idea of an armor boost but I actually have to wonder why the decision was made to give an overall flat boost over a percentage one (10%-20%) I know that they explained it and I know they said the decision was because they didn't want to push the overheating limits when fighting Type-C mechs (if it was to high) but to be honest, I think that is exactly the buff that Type-C mechs need.

As for the patch itself, I get the feeling that it is more of a "test patch" rather than a "full patch" that would normally address major issue; which is good in my opinion, small patches like these allow for some good fine tuning and data collection. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we saw another patch that altered these values or some other things a week or two from the 7th.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.
Phos isn't arguing. He just likes thinking the devs do what they do just to be jerks instead of considering they might have real, legitimate reasons that lie outside his limited understanding of game development.

I have no idea why you continue think Adhesive doesn't have a list of all the weapon values, that would be pretty disorganized on their part if they didn't, or that they would somehow calculate the percent change of everything they changed without having the raw numbers.  They'd be some legitimate mathemagicians to pull that off.

All you're proving is that you didn't read my post. This is real game development, not something a few guys are putting together in their basement. You're acting like the numbers are important to them. They're not. They have much bigger priorites. Yes, they can get the numbers, but they have to sift through several different departments and builds to verify the ones we as players are dealing with in the game. And those numbers are changing constantly because the company is not a singular entity where everyone knows what everyone else is doing at all times and is working accordingly. The product we are playing right now is NOT the product they are familiar with. The product they are familiar with right now is one we will be familiar with several months from now. They can't tell you what the numbers are any more than you can tell me exactly what you ate three months ago and how many calories each bite was. In order to get what you want they will have to travel back in time across multiple planes until they find it and ascertain its accuracy (and they won't be accurate because why would they be_ It was months ago). Maybe once the game gets out of beta they can find the time to get all those numbers.

Quit acting like it'd take a miracle for them to pull the numbers and give them to us.

Fact is, they know the numbers and they can get them to us, in a timely fashion even, but the reason we don't get the numbers is because they don't want us to have them. Stop ignoring the FACT that Hughes himself said this, and that is why we don't get numbers. Not because it's too damn hard and they don't know. Hell, some of the HWK guys involved in the balancing often know the current numbers off the top of their head, or are at least within the ballpark. Getting the stats for mechs and weapons is not some hugely complicated process.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, May 04 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[Wasabi_Wei]

The way I interpreted his take was this: "We have numbers, but there are a few variables in play and the numbers would be misleading, so we would rather go by feel  from the cockpit."

Edited by Wasabi_Wei, May 04 2013 - 09:20 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Wasabi_Wei, on May 04 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

The way I interpreted his take was this: "We have numbers, but there are a few variables in play and the numbers would be misleading, so we would rather go by feel  from the cockpit."

I got into a minor argument with Hughes a while back in PMs over hidden numbers. It's not about variables. They just rather adjust balance based on what we "feel", never mind how subjective and vague "feelings" can be.

[Phos]

If they expect to become a competitive game they're going to need to surface the numbers.

deBoru, on May 04 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

The main issue with the tech isn't its damage dealing capability (which is way too good as it is, but more on that later), it's that its healing ability encourages stalemates, traveling as a single giant group, and strengthens defender's advantage. On its own, combining the RPR with the offensive repair torch, the tech can 1v1 any light mech and can run away from anything heavier due to it being a light. If he gets the torch on you before your first shot hits him, he's essentially "got you" and you'll be hard pressed to out damage his heal before you either die or overheat and his DPS from the torch is basically guaranteed.

But there is an extremely simple way to break the repair torch's beam... just boost towards them at a 10 degree angle to pass them then 180 it or put something between you and beam... it instantly breaks the stream. You just need to know the formula for the weapon just like beating Rockets. The ONLY thing that I see as an acceptable nerf to the Helix Torch is to make it's deconstruction beam less sticky or make it so at least to get it stuck you need to have the reticle on them.

During your entire boost to get behind the tech you are continuously being damaged by the torch which is also healing the tech.  The tech also has all the best mobility, he can track you as well as you track him leaving you with no advantage, not even any gross gain (a net gain is an idle dream) from this.  Why do you think this maneuver would do anything_  

deBoru, on May 04 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

SuicideNeil, on May 04 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

deBoru, on May 04 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

But there is an extremely simple way to break the repair torch's beam... just boost towards them at a 10 degree angle to pass them then 180 it or put something between you and beam... it instantly breaks the stream. You just need to know the formula for the weapon just like beating Rockets. The ONLY thing that I see as an acceptable nerf to the Helix Torch is to make it's deconstruction beam less sticky or make it so at least to get it stuck you need to have the reticle on them.

You seem to have ignored all the other main issues though, such as constant self healing when healing another mech ( heal 2 mechs at once, because that isn't unbalanced at all, nope... ) self heal when other mech is already fully healed, low heat generation ( it is very low compared to most other weapons ), ability to heal when using death ray- all you seem to focus on is how to avoid the death ray. Feel free to actually read some posts yourself and stop ignoring all the other pertinent issues raised. And I didn't say the investment came from one person ( it did come from one company as I understand it however- same thing ), you just failed to read my post correctly. I don't expect devs to pander to every single persons wants and desires, but I do expect them to acknowledge that some changes they introduce fundamently are bad ideas and game breakers, but they fail to even acknowledge many of these serious issues and just continue with their road map regardless of how many people raise the same issues over & over again. Also, Facility is not really any smaller than Origin- the silos/eu stations are perfectly well spaced ( look at Origin- you can boost from one end of the map to the other pretty much without needing to slow down in an A-class ) and it would be simple enough to tack a base on either side so that no team has any real advantage over the other in terms of distance to travel, unlike on Bazaar....

if you had read my first post you'd have seen that I already dismissed those and concentrated on it's abilities as a damage dealer. The devs can't just release a mech that can't defend itself. It's low dps is a set back that makes up for the heat. As for multiple Techs healing a mech. That's more of a core mechanic issue than a Technician issue. But once again I was concentrated on it's abilities as a damage dealer.

Just because you ignore (or "dismiss") a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  50 DPS is 100% competitive among other secondaries and it does this while making negligible heat and healing the tech and with auto aim.  The short range on this weapon is hardly a set back when so many other mech either want to get close to you (making your job easy) or are out of their element while they are close to you (making your job free).  The technician is not wanting for its own DPS and its healing ability is allows for ridiculous sustain even while outnumbered.  2v2 and there's a tech on one side of it_  The tech can just pop his ability and they're both basically invulnerable for its duration.

[_MAD]

Quote

Increased all mechs starting armor by 50

I allready had trouble to kill other mechs at distance with my sharpshoorter, because i can't do enough damage in the short time they need to become aware of me. With the extra armor, they have even more time to become aware, and shift into cover. so, it gets even harder to for me to kill other mechs. Maybe we should change the name sharpshooter to finisher, because an allready damaged mech is the only target a sharpshooter can kill at distance with these specs.

Don't get me wrong: i like this game very much! it stopped me from playing war thunder. :-)

[teeth_03]

I agree with the guy who said the armor should be increased by 10% for all mechs instead of a flat number. The C class mechs clearly need a buff and that would help out a lot.

[FussyBadger]

_MAD, on May 04 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Maybe we should change the name sharpshooter to finisher, because an allready damaged mech is the only target a sharpshooter can kill at distance with these specs.

The Sharpshooter is a precision support mech. It will pick up kills on damaged enemies and rack up assists by setting up kills for teammates. If you avoid playing it like a hidden sniper and more like a mobile extension of your team, you will find more opportunities to pick off foes that no one else can.

The Sharpshooter dishes a huge amount of burst and hitscan damage as it is. It can be invaluable - but it's very different than a traditional sniper.

[ScHizNiK]

Wow everything I wanted! <3

You guys really are listening!