248 replies to this topic

[GATX]

AsianJoyKiller, on May 04 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

waftycrank, on May 04 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Umbre, on May 04 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Do the impact sounds include getting hit by the EOC_ That weapon has been silent for far too long.

I'm really hoping for this. EOC is pretty much the most evil weapon in the game..
- Highest burst damage out of all the primaries + Half of the secondaries
- Projectiles are nearly invisible on some maps
- Projectiles are completely silent while traveling through the air
- No impact sounds
- Mine spam EVERYWHERE
I can't take anyone seriously who uses this weapon and thinks they have any semblance of skill.
I lose all interest in playing the game when I have to deal with obnoxious players who do nothing but use this weapon. It's really that unpleasant.

Concur.  With shiny gold k-n-o-b-s on.  It's a Secondary weapon with an identity crisis.  "Take only one Secondary weapon to the party_  Not me!  I pack an EOC and take two!"

Had EOC watershed moment recently when piloting CR-T.  (Not played since.  Not owing entirely to EOC.  Burst in general.)  Rest of team were EOC Raiders & Infils with Flak Scout.  CR-T had final score 1-3-28.  Sustain can't keep up.  Ridonkulous.  Waftycrakers.  Bomkers.  Etc.

That's another problem I have with this patch.

Sure. They're increasing the TTK, but they've done nothing, absolutely nothing, to address the fact that burst is highly superior to sustained damage.

They have already taken the steps to address the burst issue in the last patch. Perhaps they are still in the process of gathering data to better get an understanding of what weapons needs adjustments. I completely agree that EOC and MIRV needs to be toned down a bit. Those two weapons currently do the most ridiculous amount of damage and doesn't require much skill to use.

[Phos]

Burst weapons also don't give up much in the way of dps or heat, aside from uncharged heat cannon shots. That is of course accompanied by reduced need for exposure.

[dorobo]

Facility skinned - nice. Can you pls remove servers with above 200 ping for every player in UK region. Thanks. And do not nerf eoc even more pls.. sustained damage weapons are superior these days when fighting in the open area.

[FussyBadger]

dorobo, on May 04 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

sustained damage weapons are superior these days when fighting in the open area.

They should be. But a bursty player isn't playing smart if they engage (or hand out in) open ground.

[Gookywun]

Step in the right direction imo. Would've liked to have seen INDIVIDUAL armour gains on each class but meh, let's see how this plays out.
Detonator nerf is good but should just be removed from the game.
Shield buff_ Not liking the sound of that, it's already being abused.
No EOC nerf_ shame.

[GunnRdog]

Nooooooooo! Don't nerf the detonater. It's my last resort, life saving weapon. I guess I'll be dieing a lot more than I already am. But, looking forward to seeing the Facility map

[YellerBill]

GunnRdog, on May 04 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Nooooooooo! Don't nerf the detonater. It's my last resort, life saving weapon. I guess I'll be dieing a lot more than I already am. But, looking forward to seeing the Facility map

If you're relying on Det then you're already doing it wrong.

[Silk_Sk]

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Ok how about raw damage and heat numbers for every weapon in the game_

Wait, seriously_ That's what you're disappointed about_ That they didn't give us every single stat of everything in the game_ You honestly, truly expect them to list every number of everything with full knowledge that it will already be outdated (from their view) by the time they put it out_ This is not the suggestions board. If you want to keep pretending they have a fraction of the time required to put together and maintain something like that, go make a "I want the devs to make their own damn wiki" thread.

[Akaon]

I doubt they'll ever remove detonator, how about changing its impact instead_ How about a detonator with a 20-30 second cooldown and roughly 50 damage. Instead of being a deciding factor through the high burst it offers next to regular weapons, it just adds damage on a regular basis, instead of every minute.
You could do the same for the HE, with the same values but add a stagger/slowing effect (nothing major, just a reward for using the harder to use item).
Similar changes also possible for EMP.

[Houruck]

Gookywun, on May 04 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Shield buff_ Not liking the sound of that, it's already being abused.

I liked when detonator could penetrate it, it even made sense (Holtzman effect from Dune). I thought I could live with it now that it absorbes explosions and splash damage but I have met a certain pilot who uses shield and EMP with an EOC Raider. This way I need to go inside next to him to deal some damage but he can blast my chassis with MIRV.

Edit: I usually use detonator as a last change to finish someone and I do not think it needs to do so much damage. H.E. charge on the other hand needs some skill (and luck) when not used against a repairing enemy.

Edited by Houruck, May 04 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Pirits]

My mind has been blown.

ILU.

[Phos]

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Ok how about raw damage and heat numbers for every weapon in the game_

Wait, seriously_ That's what you're disappointed about_ That they didn't give us every single stat of everything in the game_ You honestly, truly expect them to list every number of everything with full knowledge that it will already be outdated (from their view) by the time they put it out_ This is not the suggestions board. If you want to keep pretending they have a fraction of the time required to put together and maintain something like that, go make a "I want the devs to make their own damn wiki" thread.

You act like it takes a lot of time to copy and paste from an excel spreadsheet into a forum thread.  They listed hard numbers for how much they changed every weapon in the tech update but for some reason didn't just include the actual values.

[Houruck]

Watch the last episode of The Cockpit. Hughes said they are deliberately not sharing hard numbers but rather just how the "changes feel like".

[Silk_Sk]

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Ok how about raw damage and heat numbers for every weapon in the game_

Wait, seriously_ That's what you're disappointed about_ That they didn't give us every single stat of everything in the game_ You honestly, truly expect them to list every number of everything with full knowledge that it will already be outdated (from their view) by the time they put it out_ This is not the suggestions board. If you want to keep pretending they have a fraction of the time required to put together and maintain something like that, go make a "I want the devs to make their own damn wiki" thread.

You act like it takes a lot of time to copy and paste from an excel spreadsheet into a forum thread.  They listed hard numbers for how much they changed every weapon in the tech update but for some reason didn't just include the actual values.

You act like they program hawken on an excel spreadsheet. They have multiple builds of the game with many people working on many different aspects of them. Compiling the correct information and putting it together is much more difficult for them as it is for us. There is no spreadsheet. There is no copy-paste. They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.

[Phos]

Houruck, on May 04 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Watch the last episode of The Cockpit. Hughes said they are deliberately not sharing hard numbers but rather just how the "changes feel like".

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.

Pfffff, hahaha.

And the changes feel like the best weapons are still the best weapons and the worst weapons are still the worst weapons.

[Akrium]

Umbre, on May 04 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Oh, want to know something funny about TTK_

I've done the calculations and even with the detonator nerf, an EOC Raider can still instagib an A class in one alpha-strike.

EOC: 180 damage optimized to 193
MIRV: 210 damage optimized to 226
Detonator: 140

Total: 559
If using HE Charge instead of Detonator, Total: 594

The A class when optimized for maximum health has: 602

Unless the A class is optimized, it will be obliterated instantly. An optimized A class likely only surviving for about 1/2 - 1 second longer.

Got a few issues with the way you present these numbers. As one who has called out the burst issue with the eoc myself, there are a few things I want to go over. Also it will be done via stock values instead of bonus internal and tree changes. As people can spec for additional dmg or additional health. And at the A class level they basically cancel each other out, though O does win out. So no point in going down that road for shock value.

First off let me point out the stock dmg potential minus any items at all.
EOC (180) +:
kla-mirv (210) = 390 dmg = "raider-M"
hfm (183*_) = 363 dmg = "rocketeer" or "rocket"
kla-slug (170) = 350 dmg = "raider-S"
tow or sabot (155) = 335 dmg = "T/S" **
gl (150) = 330 dmg = "infiltrator" or "inf"
ke-sabot (95) = 275 dmg = "ke" **

*I am not positive of this number, but I also feel it is close enough to make the point.
**Showing possibilities of all secondaries. As the EOC is the reason this is an issue so we need to look at it from all secondary standpoints. I also don't know the number for the current zoomed sabot, so I had to skip that sadly. But I have a feeling it is still less than the kla-Mirv.

So now lets look at stock dmg burst potential with items:
HE (175) +:
raider-M = 565 dmg
rocket = 538 dmg
raider-S = 525 dmg
T/S = 510 dmg
inf = 505 dmg
ke = 450 dmg

Range of 565 to 450.

Det (140) +:
raider-M = 530 dmg
rocket = 503 dmg
raider-S = 490 dmg
T/S = 475 dmg
inf = 470 dmg
ke = 415 dmg

Range of 530-415 dmg.

So out of all those numbers.. only ONE is an instant gib on an A class mech (550 armor) in the new patch. This doesn't do much to show the EOC is what is broken here. Infact I would rather say the HE needs changed to 140 as well and maybe have it's CD reduced another 5-10 seconds. This would also promote higher skill (HE) over easy of use(Det) with the ability to use the HE more often. It will be tough finding that sweet spot but it does exist. So the top damage the raider-M (highest eoc burst combo) could do with an item would be 530 dmg. Thus taking away all abilities to instant gib someone in the game solo (minus funny reverse goomba stomps that also need fixed and possibly SS PS combo + item which is an ability/primary/secondary AND an item combo that I don't know what damage it does).

These numbers are a FAR cry from what they were a few patches ago. The fact is the devs have listened to us not enjoying the effects of burst and have changed how much burst we can do.

As it stands I feel that the EOC could use a slight reduction in heat cost. It felt really good in the previous patch and with the 15% dmg reduction and no heat change, I can seriously feel the difference. Combine that with the Raider secondary balancing the heat gain on that mech in question is through the roof. As it stands the Raider is now a High Skill / High Reward mech. It is very unforgiving on missing any shots, even more so than the SS which is easier to use and has more utility.

I am looking forward to the 50 health gain across the board and the changes to the repair charge. No more almost dead A class mechs diving behind a wall and 3 seconds later having full health again.

[Guiotine]

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Houruck, on May 04 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Watch the last episode of The Cockpit. Hughes said they are deliberately not sharing hard numbers but rather just how the "changes feel like".

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.

Pfffff, hahaha.

And the changes feel like the best weapons are still the best weapons and the worst weapons are still the worst weapons.

I like how you ignored everything else Silk said.

[Phos]

Guiotine, on May 04 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Houruck, on May 04 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Watch the last episode of The Cockpit. Hughes said they are deliberately not sharing hard numbers but rather just how the "changes feel like".

Silk_Sk, on May 04 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

They aren't withholding that information. It's just not worth their time.

Pfffff, hahaha.

And the changes feel like the best weapons are still the best weapons and the worst weapons are still the worst weapons.

I like how you ignored everything else Silk said.

Why would I need to address them_  The basis for his argument was that adhesive (somehow) didn't have the numbers for their weapons. They clearly do and made the decision not to release them.

[Sylhiri]

Phos, on May 04 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

They clearly do and made the decision not to release them.

A man on the inside eh...

You should convince them to make the JT-Nyancat (name by Scapes) thrusters.

[SuicideNeil]

Weakened detonator_ It needs to be made stronger with a larger blast radius, not weaker! I can detonate this in someones face and it causes next to no damage now- it has been nerfed and nerfed way too much- totally the wrong direction to take.

No Technician nerfing_ I've been playing Tech and nothing else pretty much and can confirm ( despite what arrogant devs may say... ) that heat generation is way too slow/small, even when firing both weapons at once; I can overheat any other mech in a few seconds, but the Tech just keeps going & going ). Haven't fixed the self healing even when other tech is 100% health issue_ Haven't increased weapon heating to be more in line with other mechs_ I hope this gets fixed in the next patch- the Tech is a joke at the moment.

Glad to see Facility finished- when will it support Seige mode_

I see no mention if fixing hit detection though- I can still shoot at people and get no hits for the first few seconds of firing/first salvo or missiles/rockets etc. Also imagine that shooting at a mech in turret mode causing no damage/shots passing right through hasn't been fixed either.

I doubt that rocket turrets will be nerfed at all either- the new firing rate is just stupidly high, but the dev I spoke to in game was arrogant enough to just dismiss my concerns; $10million investment and all we get is 'nah, I think it's fine'. Thanks for listening, thanks a lot.