135 replies to this topic

[Coboxite]

Loklov_Krein_Rah, on March 29 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Nope not at all. The Tow rocket is mapped tow either the middle or the right. But the EOC P is mapped only to middle.

I don't know about you but i haven't used 3 fingers at once since the good olé Gunz days

It wouldn't be so bad if EOC P was a primary weapon, but no, its mapped to right mouse button, meaning I go three fingered, or I have to switch around my middle finger WHILE at the same time having to deal with a weapon that charges to. Also, I have giant ape hands.

[Bazookagofer]

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

TL;DR

The Pred is a trap mech, not a CQC fighter, or any other type of fighter. Correctly placed mines can nearly one shot an A class and mortally wound a B and C. Add on the power of the breacher when charged and you got one fierce trap laying mech. If your not finding it useful/powerful/etc your using it in the wrong fashion. Pred is a strategy mech, not a dumbfire/hail mary mech, you just need to be in the right meta mentality to use it correctly.

Too bad it lays traps so slowly and the traps are so easy to see... and they cover such a small space... so in short words it a miracle if you actually hit something like that then lol.

Anywho I think the best will be if we switch breacher to secondary P-EOC to a primary. Adjust numbers. P-Eoc can be charged etc. After leaving cloak you get a 50% boost to damage and a 20% boost to fire rate for 3 seconds. Pred would have lowest armor of all B classes but would be the fastest. So it would be an extremely bursty quick assasin which can take on a mech in a burst attack but starts losing in longer fights. So you can actually "ambush people" ... numbers would need adjusting.

Edited by Bazookagofer, March 29 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Loklov_Krein_Rah, on March 29 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

AsianJoyKiller, on March 29 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I really feel like you're not using the Pred correctly. I'm playing in a 2000+ MMR range, and I am having none of the trouble you seem to be having with the Breacher, which means that the problem is the pilot, and not the weapon.

In fact, since you mention "true damage", I can tell you don't even fully understand the basic mechanics of the game. There is no such thing as "armor" in the game. Armor and health are the same thing. Unless you are using turret mode or the Bruiser's special ability, you either take full damage, or you take no damage.

Also, it doesn't compare with the TOW because it is a PRIMARY weapon. It is supposed to be inferior, and if you're only using your primary only to try and secure kills, it should be hard to do and underwhelming. If you can't figure out how to use both your weapons under all circumstances, then you should be failing, especially in direct combat.

Your grasp on Hawken's basic mechanics is very shakey.

Nope I understand it just fine. Thetrue damage that I was referring to was in reference to those mecho that can go into turret mode. but the way the predator is setup is backwards. The primary weapon does more than the secondary and even though the primary is unreliable to secure kills the secondary is even more unreliable. it has a quicker rate of fire but extremely slow projectile speed which forces you to switch from firing your Breacher directly at the person to lead shotting with your EOC P. it's completely ineffective and ridiculous. the Breach is closer to a secondary then the EOC. just because the breach is on your primary arm and registered as a primary doesn't mean it actually is. Look at the EOC. it has a faster firing rate and does less damage just like an assault rifle and the Breach has hey rate of fire and damage rate comparable to the toW rocket.

Just because the devs call it the primary doesn't mean that it is.

So it's not a primary just because you say so, despite the devs of the game saying it is and the fact that it fills all requirements of being a primary_ That's not how it works.

Just because it doesn't behave like you believe a primary should act, does not mean it is not a primary weapon. That's not something you get to decide.

Are you capable of recording video_ I really want to see you playing Predator, because I know that I can do fairly well in direct combat with the Pred, and I don't have nearly as many problems as you seem to.

The mere fact that it doesn't cause that many problems for me points to most of your problems being pilot error, and not Breacher failings. If it were the Breacher, I simply wouldn't be able to perform well with it.

[mccrorie]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 29 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Good God.
Who in their right mind thinks the Breacher needs a buff_ That thing is ridiculously powerful. I seriously can't believe some people are implying that it's useless uncharged. I'm convinced they must not know how to use the Predator...

In my mind, the Pred's greatest flaws have to do with the EOC-P.
A slow projectile speed, high heat generation and the inability to lay multiple mines at once make it a sub-par weapon in even light combat, and then even if your just acting as supplementary damage. Hell, even if you're not in combat, the fact you have to lay down mines 1 by 1 means that somebody can happen upon you (not hard, given how loud the EOC-P is) before you have a decent trap set.

But the Breacher having problems_
What a joke. If I had that instead of the Flak cannon on a Scout or Brawler, the killing sprees I'd go on would be ridiculous.

I know, right. But I still find it terribly inconsistent at close range. It's not like using the flak.

[Bazookagofer]

Breacher is fine guys, if anything it a bit over the top even. What is bad though is the P-Eoc. In a engagement I just don't use it whatsoever.... i fight only with the breacher... and that not good.

[AsianJoyKiller]

mccrorie, on March 29 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I know, right. But I still find it terribly inconsistent at close range. It's not like using the flak.

Inconsistent how_

[PlagueDoctor]

mccrorie, on March 29 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I know, right. But I still find it terribly inconsistent at close range. It's not like using the flak.

It has a really long + awkward cooldown, meaning you have to be careful with your aiming. If you can land consistent flak hits, you'll roast people. The weapon takes a lot of practice to use correctly.

Edited by PlagueDoctor, March 29 2014 - 03:38 PM.

[mccrorie]

AsianJoyKiller, on March 29 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

mccrorie, on March 29 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I know, right. But I still find it terribly inconsistent at close range. It's not like using the flak.

Inconsistent how_

Just in how much damage I'm doing at near/medium range. With Flak damage drop-off works much how I would expect. With Breacher I feel like I have nfi why its doing more/less damage at any one point. Plus its fuzzy bunny hard to see where my shots land. Sometimes when I place the cursor directly over a target at close range and fire it does a lot of damage, other times it does very little damage or I don't know if I hit or miss at all.

[ASneakyFox]

im pretty sure the breacher does the same damage per projectile at all ranges. it would be kind of cool if getting a fully charged breacher on another mech right in their face could deal massive damage as it would tie in your ability to be invisible. but i feel like its just as useful to fire from a distance.

[Stingz]

mccrorie, on March 29 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

Just in how much damage I'm doing at near/medium range. With Flak damage drop-off works much how I would expect. With Breacher I feel like I have nfi why its doing more/less damage at any one point. Plus its fuzzy bunny hard to see where my shots land. Sometimes when I place the cursor directly over a target at close range and fire it does a lot of damage, other times it does very little damage or I don't know if I hit or miss at all.

Breacher uncharged has awful spread(14%, double that of Vulcan), avoid using it past close range.

Edited by Stingz, March 29 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Loklov_Krein_Rah]

Coboxite, on March 29 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Loklov_Krein_Rah, on March 29 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Nope not at all. The Tow rocket is mapped tow either the middle or the right. But the EOC P is mapped only to middle.

I don't know about you but i haven't used 3 fingers at once since the good olé Gunz days

It wouldn't be so bad if EOC P was a primary weapon, but no, its mapped to right mouse button, meaning I go three fingered, or I have to switch around my middle finger WHILE at the same time having to deal with a weapon that charges to. Also, I have giant ape hands.

Me too. This is my problem exactly.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Edit: After putting some thought into it, I've edited my stance on the idea of buffing this mech. So for a more accurate representation of my option, just refer to my later post.

The only things I think he predator really needs is a speed boost similar to the infiltrator's when it's cloaked and the ability to air burst the mines. The only real weakness of the predator, to me, was it's difficulty fighting airborne  mechs. Being able to airburst the mines would help out significantly with that problem.

And something needs to be done about the cloak, becuase it's not very useful as an invisibility screen, at all. The infiltrator has a much better cloak, and even that is fairly noticeable. Either the predator should at least be able to walk a bit faster while cloaked, so it can duck behind cover while sneaking around more effectively, or be completely invisible, or only 5% visible versus the 20% visibility it currently has. The damage on the predator is fine, it just has to deliver it a bit more easily.

Also, if the EOC predator should be changed, the only way it should be changed is increasing the amount of damage an individual mine does and decrease the max number out at any one time to balance it. That or let us airburst the mines, as I said before.

Edited by SoldierHobbes11, March 30 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[KylarxS]

Bazookagofer, on March 29 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

TL;DR

The Pred is a trap mech, not a CQC fighter, or any other type of fighter. Correctly placed mines can nearly one shot an A class and mortally wound a B and C. Add on the power of the breacher when charged and you got one fierce trap laying mech. If your not finding it useful/powerful/etc your using it in the wrong fashion. Pred is a strategy mech, not a dumbfire/hail mary mech, you just need to be in the right meta mentality to use it correctly.

Too bad it lays traps so slowly and the traps are so easy to see... and they cover such a small space... so in short words it a miracle if you actually hit something like that then lol.

Anywho I think the best will be if we switch breacher to secondary P-EOC to a primary. Adjust numbers. P-Eoc can be charged etc. After leaving cloak you get a 50% boost to damage and a 20% boost to fire rate for 3 seconds. Pred would have lowest armor of all B classes but would be the fastest. So it would be an extremely bursty quick assasin which can take on a mech in a burst attack but starts losing in longer fights. So you can actually "ambush people" ... numbers would need adjusting.

Actually I don't think the extra firing rate should be given. It wouldn't really help much and the heat generated from the secondary is already so much.

AsianJoyKiller, on March 29 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

mccrorie, on March 29 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

I know, right. But I still find it terribly inconsistent at close range. It's not like using the flak.

Inconsistent how_

You're saying you can kill consistently with the breacher right_ From what I've played so far what you're saying is you somehow manage to hit your opponents every time with it charged and they walk into the minds you lay every time because they're blind. Seeing as you probably have no chance of hitting an A-class if they were flying and a moderate chance of hitting an A-class who actually knows how to dodge instead of walk consecutively at most you would manage to hit 2/5 of your breachers charged shot at a lowered health opponent which in most case is still not enough to kill him. From my experience, if the person you're fighting have a vulcan like weapon you don't really stand a chance. Just my 2 cents.

[KylarxS]

SoldierHobbes11, on March 29 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

The only things I think he predator really needs is a speed boost similar to the infiltrator's when it's cloaked and the ability to air burst the mines. The only real weakness of the predator, to me, was it's difficulty fighting airborne  mechs. Being able to airburst the mines would help out significantly with that problem. And something needs to be done about the cloak, becuase it's not very useful as an invisibility screen, at all. The infiltrator has a much better cloak, and even that is fairly noticeable. Either the predator should at least be able to walk a bit faster while cloaked, so it can duck behind cover while sneaking around more effectively, or be completely invisible, or only 5% visible versus the 20% visibility it currently has. The damage on the predator is fine, it just has to deliver it a bit more easily.

5% is a bit too much don't you think. I've seen lots of people who walk pass me when i'm cloaked if im not moving. Some usually just manage to notice the mech's outline and fire at me though.

[nokari]

KylarxS, on March 29 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

You're saying you can kill consistently with the breacher right_ From what I've played so far what you're saying is you somehow manage to hit your opponents every time with it charged and they walk into the minds you lay every time because they're blind. Seeing as you probably have no chance of hitting an A-class if they were flying and a moderate chance of hitting an A-class who actually knows how to dodge instead of walk consecutively at most you would manage to hit 2/5 of your breachers charged shot at a lowered health opponent which in most case is still not enough to kill him. From my experience, if the person you're fighting have a vulcan like weapon you don't really stand a chance. Just my 2 cents.

All of that sounds made-up

[AsianJoyKiller]

KylarxS, on March 29 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

You're saying you can kill consistently with the breacher right_

Yes, and at least do heavy damage regularly, enough to justify my existence as damage support.

Quote

From what I've played so far what you're saying is you somehow manage to hit your opponents every time with it charged

Why would I always be charging the Breacher_ That's a silly thing to do.
Besides that, it's not that hard to be accurate with the charged Breacher. I regularly harass snipers into running away using charged shots. It's hitscan and very accurate. Doesn't get much easier than that.

Quote

and they walk into the minds you lay every time because they're blind.

Or because I know where to place my mines.
Or because I regularly land direct hit shots with the EOC-P.

Quote

Seeing as you probably have no chance of hitting an A-class if they were flying and a moderate chance of hitting an A-class who actually knows how to dodge instead of walk consecutively at most you would manage to hit 2/5 of your breachers charged shot at a lowered health opponent which in most case is still not enough to kill him.

Perhaps you're this bad at aiming and target prediction.
I'm not.

Quote

From my experience, if the person you're fighting have a vulcan like weapon you don't really stand a chance. Just my 2 cents.

From my experience, if the enemy is using sustained weapons, that makes it all the more easier to kill them. I just keep backing around corners and laying mines as they go, then when they do make it around the corner, I nail them with the Breacher. They need to be in LoS for extended periods of time to kill me, but I don't need to see them for more than a split second.

[Onstrava]

Wasn't there a thread awhile back about quicker mine deployment_ Theres a recent thread about the mines not being detroyable by weapon splash and what not that I've personally also have seen in acouple matches. I'm wonder if thats a bug or intended because it brings up an interesting idea. Have the mines only be destroyable when they are sent out for a short time, after awhile of none interaction the mines become immune to splash and direct hit fire. That really would allow pred to set up there mine web and no cross zones.

Edited by Onstrava, March 29 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Bazookagofer, on March 29 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Anywho I think the best will be if we switch breacher to secondary P-EOC to a primary. Adjust numbers. P-Eoc can be charged etc. After leaving cloak you get a 50% boost to damage and a 20% boost to fire rate for 3 seconds. Pred would have lowest armor of all B classes but would be the fastest. So it would be an extremely bursty quick assasin which can take on a mech in a burst attack but starts losing in longer fights. So you can actually "ambush people" ... numbers would need adjusting.

This is a good idea, I'm not sure if the devs will do this though. :/

IMO, the only things needed to be buffed is:

• Walk Speed/Dodge rate increase
  
• Increase in velocity for EOC-P
  
• Higher refire rate for Breacher

That's it!

[Loklov_Krein_Rah]

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on March 29 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Bazookagofer, on March 29 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Anywho I think the best will be if we switch breacher to secondary P-EOC to a primary. Adjust numbers. P-Eoc can be charged etc. After leaving cloak you get a 50% boost to damage and a 20% boost to fire rate for 3 seconds. Pred would have lowest armor of all B classes but would be the fastest. So it would be an extremely bursty quick assasin which can take on a mech in a burst attack but starts losing in longer fights. So you can actually "ambush people" ... numbers would need adjusting.

This is a good idea, I'm not sure if the devs will do this though. :/

IMO, the only things needed to be buffed is:

• Walk Speed/Dodge rate increase
  
• Increase in velocity for EOC-P
  
• Higher refire rate for Breacher

That's it!

Exactly
This is perfect.

[Zylox]

I think this thread was much more productive the last time I posted something. Now it's just degenerating into "I'm no good with the predator, it needs a buff" and "I'm already good with the predator, it's fine the way it is."

Come on people. The thing has a good role to play, but it doesn't play it perfectly. Anyone who is saying anything at all in this game is perfect at this point in development needs a serious wake-up call. The predator, like all things Hawken, is a work in progress, and needs tweaking and balancing in order to bring it into the role it was designed to fill.

Stop bragging and bickering about personal skill and focus on what should be balanced from an objective point of view. If you can't do that, you need a time-out to cool your head.