135 replies to this topic

[Zylox]

I've been maining a pred the last week and a bit and I agree that it is incredibly under-powered in a toe-to-toe fight. However, I don't necessarily agree that it should be buffed in order to survive those situations. If you're fighting someone 1v1 and they haven't taken any damage at all yet, you're not using the mech properly.

Compare the pred's ability with the zerker and you start to understand what role each of the mechs are supposed to fill. Preds are supposed to be ambushers.

Now on the other side of that coin, the pred is not very good at ambushing. I think giving the EOC-P a charge/burst mode with very high heat is an excellent idea. Often when I need to set up an ambush with very little notice, I just don't have the time to set up a proper minefield. Seeing as how their detection and blast radii are so very very small, and the maps are enormous and have hardly any bottlenecks, it just makes them undervalued. Also consider how often mechs are hovering around the map and ground-based proxy mines are kind of.. well, non-threatening.

Wall and ceiling-mounted mines are also incredibly situational; borderline useless. I've seen most pred pilots just spam their EOC's into a group of enemies and do their damage that way. If that's how it's supposed to be used, it may as well be replaced with a grenade launcher.

The breacher in my experience is pretty good the way it is - incredibly accurate and powerful. The ROF on the burst mode needs some serious attention. It does less damage, has more heat, doesn't pierce shields, is wildly inaccurate, and has a longer cooldown. It's kind of dumb really.

The EOC-Repeater is a good alternate weapon that fits the pred's style and I don't really see anything wrong with it. It's hard to use, but very powerful when used properly.

The bolt though is dumb and has no place in the pred's meta, in my opinion. It's just bad.

Other things like the damage-threshold on stealth break, slight walk-speed increase, and a passive "surprise" damage boost on first stealth shot aren't terrible ideas and could probably be implemented in a balanced way.

[Lightangel112]

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Lightangel112, on March 27 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Health needs a slight armour buff.
ROF needs a buff for both weps.
Damage to breacher needs a buff.
EOC P needs a speed buff too.
Predator needs more air dynamics.
Shield piercing should not reduce dmg.
Stealth should be deactived on boosting.
and when taken X amount of damage.

Breacher is a charge weapon it doesn't need a buff.
EOC P trades speed for infinite mine time. Other wise it'd be the standard repeater.
Shield piercing is justified, the shield is an electromagnetic barrier meant to STOP projectiles. Obviously letting something go through it is going to lose impact power.
Stealth deactivates temporarily while boosting. It's stealth also deactivates the moment it's hit, it's Infiltrator your confusing this bit with.

Your basically requesting the Hawken team to completely change the loadout of the Pred from a tactical mech to a substandard SMG/AR/Vulc + TOW. Which is what the game does not need, since those mechs are already way overplayed.

You must think I'm some fuzzy bunny or other. A charge weapon, ok, but its dps is mute. I no longer lay traps in most matches, as it is a waste of time, i dnt care for infinity mine time. What i would like is more projectile velocity so my pucks can at least keep up with the breacher. Remember the rail shot can pierce multiple mechs, 3 if I'm not mistaken, what's a shield to that amount of mech armour. It used to be able to do full dmg, now it is nerfed imo. I'm not mistaking nothing for infiltrator. What I said was, that I would like my stealth to still be active even if I get hit till I take about 400 damage, at the top of my head. This will give me the combat advantage I need to hopefully survive an engagement by using the heat visual. Side dodges can still stop it temp.

Quote

Your basically requesting the Hawken team to completely change the loadout of the Pred from a tactical mech to a substandard SMG/AR/Vulc + TOW. Which is what the game does not need, since those mechs are already way overplayed.

You don't get it still. I know those mechs are overplayed I don't like using them. I like using predator. But atm predator is a subpar mech in comparison. How is that a fair fight_ Even if I get the jump on them, I may not survive all the time. Where is the reward for mastering such a high skill level mech_ So dev's should make it more formidable to stand upto those sustain bullies. Predator is no longer used in competitive play that says a lot man, raider and predator used to be played in them, now they are not, raider got a few buffs this patch, where is the ones for predator coming_ That is all I want to know about. I stopped using predator as of now.

Edited by Lightangel112, March 27 2014 - 06:52 PM.

[Loklov_Krein_Rah]

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Your basically requesting the Hawken team to completely change the loadout of the Pred from a tactical mech to a substandard SMG/AR/Vulc + TOW. Which is what the game does not need, since those mechs are already way overplayed.

The reason those mechs are overplayed is because they have the best track record of consistently (and easily) shredding opponents.

This is the reason the Predator is not often played. It does virtually no dmg in comparison to other mechs of its class. I will get off a single shot with the breacher maybe two before I'm decimated by my intended target. In an ambush against a full life opponent, the Predator will almost always lose, as it stands now.

I Think that the Pred should be able to just about insta-kill an A class with a single attack coupled with the proposed surprise damage boost. Drop a B class to 40% health or less. And do at least a solid 3rd of a C-class's life.

To be able to compete with the more aggressive Assault classes, the Predator needs to be able to decimate a single target almost instantly. The balance would come from the drawback of exposing himself and having long cooldown times before he can fire again. This would lead the Predator to seek out isolated enemies in order to avoid the obliteration that doing so in a team fight would bring.

Now: Before you freak out, I know that this could make the Pred unbalanced so i have an idea.

Perhaps the Pred's Cooldown to recloak after attacking in this matter should be slightly extended maybe to 5 sec instead of 2. Not only would this help to maintain balance, but also it would force a player to be very selective of when he moves in for the kill. Making this mech a High risk High reward sort of deal. If you miss or try to take on more than one at a time, well- you die.

Edited by Loklov_Krein_Rah, March 27 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[Zylox]

Loklov_Krein_Rah, on March 27 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Your basically requesting the Hawken team to completely change the loadout of the Pred from a tactical mech to a substandard SMG/AR/Vulc + TOW. Which is what the game does not need, since those mechs are already way overplayed.

The reason those mechs are overplayed is because they have the best track record of consistently (and easily) shredding opponents.

This is the reason the Predator is not often played. It does virtually no dmg in comparison to other mechs of its class. I will get off a single shot with the breacher maybe two before I'm decimated by my intended target. In an ambush against a full life opponent, the Predator will almost always lose, as it stands now.

I Think that the Pred should be able to just about insta-kill an A class with a single attack coupled with the proposed surprise damage boost. Drop a B class to 40% health or less. And do at least a solid 3rd of a C-class's life.

To be able to compete with the more aggressive Assault classes, the Predator needs to be able to decimate a single target almost instantly. The balance would come from the drawback of exposing himself and having long cooldown times before he can fire again. This would lead the Predator to seek out isolated enemies in order to avoid the obliteration that doing so in a team fight would bring.

Now: Before you freak out, I know that this could make the Pred unbalanced so i have an idea.

Perhaps the Pred's Cooldown to recloak after attacking in this matter should be slightly extended maybe to 5 sec instead of 2. Not only would this help to maintain balance, but also it would force a player to be very selective of when he moves in for the kill. Making this mech a High risk High reward sort of deal. If you miss or try to take on more than one at a time, well- you die.

I'd have to say that's taking it a little too far. The pred's role of taking out wounded mechs is just fine. A pred should never be able to ambush a mech at full-health and kill them before they even know what's happening. That's no fun for either side.

I feel the hate for A-type mechs though. Really, that's a separate issue that arrived with the speed increase - they're waaay too fast now. Once that's balanced out, a wounded A-type would be just as viable a target as any other type.

You have to realize that the pred is not meant to destroy mechs 1v1 - that's not the purpose. They don't need to stand toe-to-toe with assault mechs because that's what other assaults and C-types are for. Preds are basically kill securing mechs. When a wounded mech would otherwise get away and repair, the pred steps out of cover and secures the kill. Some people might find that type of play to be "lame", or not fun, but that's pretty much what the pred's meant to do.

Now, anything that allows the pred to better do that specific job, I'm all in favor of, but to turn it into a 1v1 killing machine_ No.

[Loklov_Krein_Rah]

I disagree. First off, the Pred isn't even well suited for that. To do that he would have to be relatively close to a fray. And more likely then not, he would catch a stray bullet and be decloaked and torn apart instantly (personal experience in trying to play mop up). Plus, the devs have even said that the Predator was originally designed for point defense and to be a powerful area controller. Hence the landmines and stealth. However, the Predator doesn't even do that well.

The original idea behind the Pred is to lie in wait, while defending a control point or other objective, mine the area and strike out from stealth at unsuspecting enemies who have hopefully been damaged by said mines. But, as this thread has proven, that role is far too situational to be consistently useful or fun. If the dev's want to maintain his original purpose, he needs to be able to fuzzy bunny out a shat-ton more mines than he does now, (A higher limit to max # of mines) and do it much faster too.

And btw, having the sole role of taking out wounded mechs is indeed lame, and no one wants to play a mech that can't stand on its own feet. Especially not a mech named "The Predator". And besides, that role is almost just as situational as is waiting for someone to run into your mine field.

You have to pull a shot off and Steal someone else's kill before they strike the final blow, while dodging a hail of stray gunfire,-- without actually dodging or using boosters. The chances of success are ridiculously low. I have only managed probably around 30 kills total using that method. It would be better to play SS in that case who was much better designed for that role anyway.

As far as turning the Pred into a 1v1 killing machine, All you have to do is limit him with heat and reload time, and the balance will emerge. It would turn him into a surgical assassin that could eliminate high priority targets, and if he's good, slip away afterwards.

Edited by Loklov_Krein_Rah, March 27 2014 - 10:59 PM.

[KylarxS]

Zylox, on March 27 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Loklov_Krein_Rah, on March 27 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Your basically requesting the Hawken team to completely change the loadout of the Pred from a tactical mech to a substandard SMG/AR/Vulc + TOW. Which is what the game does not need, since those mechs are already way overplayed.

The reason those mechs are overplayed is because they have the best track record of consistently (and easily) shredding opponents.

This is the reason the Predator is not often played. It does virtually no dmg in comparison to other mechs of its class. I will get off a single shot with the breacher maybe two before I'm decimated by my intended target. In an ambush against a full life opponent, the Predator will almost always lose, as it stands now.

I Think that the Pred should be able to just about insta-kill an A class with a single attack coupled with the proposed surprise damage boost. Drop a B class to 40% health or less. And do at least a solid 3rd of a C-class's life.

To be able to compete with the more aggressive Assault classes, the Predator needs to be able to decimate a single target almost instantly. The balance would come from the drawback of exposing himself and having long cooldown times before he can fire again. This would lead the Predator to seek out isolated enemies in order to avoid the obliteration that doing so in a team fight would bring.

Now: Before you freak out, I know that this could make the Pred unbalanced so i have an idea.

Perhaps the Pred's Cooldown to recloak after attacking in this matter should be slightly extended maybe to 5 sec instead of 2. Not only would this help to maintain balance, but also it would force a player to be very selective of when he moves in for the kill. Making this mech a High risk High reward sort of deal. If you miss or try to take on more than one at a time, well- you die.

I'd have to say that's taking it a little too far. The pred's role of taking out wounded mechs is just fine. A pred should never be able to ambush a mech at full-health and kill them before they even know what's happening. That's no fun for either side.

I feel the hate for A-type mechs though. Really, that's a separate issue that arrived with the speed increase - they're waaay too fast now. Once that's balanced out, a wounded A-type would be just as viable a target as any other type.

You have to realize that the pred is not meant to destroy mechs 1v1 - that's not the purpose. They don't need to stand toe-to-toe with assault mechs because that's what other assaults and C-types are for. Preds are basically kill securing mechs. When a wounded mech would otherwise get away and repair, the pred steps out of cover and secures the kill. Some people might find that type of play to be "lame", or not fun, but that's pretty much what the pred's meant to do.

Now, anything that allows the pred to better do that specific job, I'm all in favor of, but to turn it into a 1v1 killing machine_ No.

Actually the predator is supposed to be used for 1v1 hence the ambush. Its suppose to take out enemies that strayed from the pack. Besides that, if we were to able to last hit the enemy we would actually have to reach him to hit. Most likely he would have teammates beside him meaning even if you manage to reach him with your super slow non-boosting walking speed the minute you shoot him you'll end up dead as well.

[Xacius]

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

TL;DR

The Pred is a trap mech, not a CQC fighter, or any other type of fighter. Correctly placed mines can nearly one shot an A class and mortally wound a B and C. Add on the power of the breacher when charged and you got one fierce trap laying mech. If your not finding it useful/powerful/etc your using it in the wrong fashion. Pred is a strategy mech, not a dumbfire/hail mary mech, you just need to be in the right meta mentality to use it correctly.

The plausibility of landing a full trap on a target is so low that it barely happens once per game at upper tiers of play.  It's incredibly easy to avoid a Predator trap, and once you spot one EOC you can pretty much expect more.  

AOE destroys these traps, making them pretty useless against anyone with a TOW/GL.  When a class's only strength is reliant on enemies being oblivious, it's probably not going to be that great of a mech.  

I'd love to see a direct-hit damage increase and projectile speed increase for its EOC-Predator.

[nepacaka]

Quote

AOE destroys these traps

Is it after the "invasion" mines can be destroyed_ I've played recently, and I could not destroy predator mines with my TOW, only to fly over them.

Quote

I'd love to see a direct-hit damage increase and projectile speed increase for its EOC-Predator.

+1

Edited by nepacaka, March 28 2014 - 03:38 AM.

[DeltaCluster]

I love to play with my Predator and it's my favourite Mech as well. But after the March update it's very difficult to play it. The faster walk and boost speed makes it problematic to ambush other enemies and you can't win a 1 vs 1 fight if you aren't a really skilled Predator pilot. The increased dmg also causes no fun anymore, cause if your enemy sees you you will be dead.

It's right that the EOC Mines are really noticeable and so a Trap is quite useless.

But I want to mention that I had a lot of fun with my Predator before the March update and it's quite powerful if you attack your enemy from behind.

I hope that you guys can release the tuning system fast, because this would be very useful for Predator pilots.

Maybe it's possible to slow down the game to the "before March status" cause Predator pilots get no chance on the battlefield now.

[Desert_Fox2]

The Pred is completely fine where it is. I was playing with a level 28 the other day in DM. He had a Pred and dominated the match. I could not win against him. I tried everything. He one every time at CQC. That tells me that if a person does bad in the Pred it isn't their cup of tea or they are just bad in it.

[Stingz]

Desert_Fox2, on March 28 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

The Pred is completely fine where it is. I was playing with a level 28 the other day in DM. He had a Pred and dominated the match. I could not win against him. I tried everything. He one every time at CQC. That tells me that if a person does bad in the Pred it isn't their cup of tea or they are just bad in it.

Pilot level isn't linked to skill, even MMR is more accurate than pilot level (which is why it's now gone from the scoreboard).

Predator is too unreliable against good opponents to have any value.
Giving EOC Pred the EOC-R hold to load (up to 3-4) mines effect could help immensely.

Edited by Stingz, March 28 2014 - 06:41 AM.

[Lightangel112]

Loklov_Krein_Rah, on March 27 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

I disagree. First off, the Pred isn't even well suited for that. To do that he would have to be relatively close to a fray. And more likely then not, he would catch a stray bullet and be decloaked and torn apart instantly (personal experience in trying to play mop up). Plus, the devs have even said that the Predator was originally designed for point defense and to be a powerful area controller. Hence the landmines and stealth. However, the Predator doesn't even do that well.

The original idea behind the Pred is to lie in wait, while defending a control point or other objective, mine the area and strike out from stealth at unsuspecting enemies who have hopefully been damaged by said mines. But, as this thread has proven, that role is far too situational to be consistently useful or fun. If the dev's want to maintain his original purpose, he needs to be able to fuzzy bunny out a shat-ton more mines than he does now, (A higher limit to max # of mines) and do it much faster too.

And btw, having the sole role of taking out wounded mechs is indeed lame, and no one wants to play a mech that can't stand on its own feet. Especially not a mech named "The Predator". And besides, that role is almost just as situational as is waiting for someone to run into your mine field.

You have to pull a shot off and Steal someone else's kill before they strike the final blow, while dodging a hail of stray gunfire,-- without actually dodging or using boosters. The chances of success are ridiculously low. I have only managed probably around 30 kills total using that method. It would be better to play SS in that case who was much better designed for that role anyway.

As far as turning the Pred into a 1v1 killing machine, All you have to do is limit him with heat and reload time, and the balance will emerge. It would turn him into a surgical assassin that could eliminate high priority targets, and if he's good, slip away afterwards.

Xacius, on March 28 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

RunaPanda, on March 27 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

TL;DR

The Pred is a trap mech, not a CQC fighter, or any other type of fighter. Correctly placed mines can nearly one shot an A class and mortally wound a B and C. Add on the power of the breacher when charged and you got one fierce trap laying mech. If your not finding it useful/powerful/etc your using it in the wrong fashion. Pred is a strategy mech, not a dumbfire/hail mary mech, you just need to be in the right meta mentality to use it correctly.

The plausibility of landing a full trap on a target is so low that it barely happens once per game at upper tiers of play.  It's incredibly easy to avoid a Predator trap, and once you spot one EOC you can pretty much expect more.  

AOE destroys these traps, making them pretty useless against anyone with a TOW/GL.  When a class's only strength is reliant on enemies being oblivious, it's probably not going to be that great of a mech.  

I'd love to see a direct-hit damage increase and projectile speed increase for its EOC-Predator.

I agree with these two posts above.

[Desert_Fox2]

Stingz, on March 28 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Pilot level isn't linked to skill, even MMR is more accurate than pilot level (which is why it's now gone from the scoreboard).

Predator is too unreliable against good opponents to have any value.
Giving EOC Pred the EOC-R hold to load (up to 3-4) mines effect could help immensely.

Yes, that is true. My point in stating his/her level was that they haven't played a ton of the game its self. They may be very good at other games and understand how to use the pred.

[craftydus]

I have a real respect for players who can run a predator well.

It's a art.

Adjusting it so any idiot can easily play it, would just diminish OG pred pilots glory.

[Duralumi]

How to buff the Predator:

1) Walking speed while cloaked is ~25 m/s
2) Increase damage and AoE of mines. Reduce the number that can be deployed.

3a) Allow mines to be airburst for reduced damage
3b) Increase projectile speed of mines

Edited by Duralumi, March 28 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[DeltaCluster]

Stingz, on March 28 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Desert_Fox2, on March 28 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

The Pred is completely fine where it is. I was playing with a level 28 the other day in DM. He had a Pred and dominated the match. I could not win against him. I tried everything. He one every time at CQC. That tells me that if a person does bad in the Pred it isn't their cup of tea or they are just bad in it.

Pilot level isn't linked to skill, even MMR is more accurate than pilot level (which is why it's now gone from the scoreboard). Predator is too unreliable against good opponents to have any value. Giving EOC Pred the EOC-R hold to load (up to 3-4) mines effect could help immensely.

I don't think that the EOC-P needs to be charged. It is very useful like it fires now.

[Loklov_Krein_Rah]

craftydus, on March 28 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

I have a real respect for players who can run a predator well.

It's a art.

Adjusting it so any idiot can easily play it, would just diminish OG pred pilots glory.

From a game developer's view, it is unfavorable to exclude players from enjoying game content due to an excessively high learning curve.

Besides, when I play other mechs I often can take on 3 or even 4 enemy mechs at a time and still win against them all given a little luck. With the Pred, I'm lucky to win against an A class in a straight fight and a C class is pretty much out of the question unless I some how manage to whittle him down without getting caught.

So if you can't beat a Predator as Desert Fox says, I would suggest that you get more practice, because anyone with even just a scout can decimate any Pred within about 5 sec at most, unless he runs away. Then it might take a little longer. The only thing you have to worry about is not stumbling into their Mines. Which isn't too hard. I've only been playing for a week or so and I have no trouble leveling a Pred.

Pred's are just too squishy to stand up to a real fight. And they don't do enough dmg to successfully ambush. All in all, they are just too situational to be used well, especially in higher level play.

Don't get me wrong. They are still fun, however, the Predator would be much more enjoyable if it was actually a Predator and not a just a mozzy that can fuzzy bunny out mines

Edited by Loklov_Krein_Rah, March 28 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[Loklov_Krein_Rah]

The Poll votes say it all. The majority (2/3 of all voters) believe that the Predator is underpowered and too situational. Not only that, but it looks like the only modes that using a Predator is practical on, are siege and missile assault.

So though some of you may have a different opinion, the majority of gamers are dissatisfied with the Predator's performance and viability as it stands now.

The most Popular suggestions by gamers seem to be the following.

Increase Predator movement speed

Increase EOC Pred ROA and/or add a Secondary Charge function that scatters multiple mines

Increase Dmg and AOE Range of mines

Add an airburst function to mines

Other popular suggestions.

Make mines less noticeable.

Increase Predator HP

Add a passive "surprise attack" dmg increase.

What do you think about these_ And can you think of any other tweaks/Changes that you think could improve gameplay for the Predator_

Always keep in mind that no matter what suggestions you make, they can always be balanced out by modifying other aspects. So don't be afraid of making suggestions that might sound over powered. The devs will just have to make the Predator weaker in other areas to balance it out.

It is still my personal opinion that the Max # of deployable mines should be increased-even if the dmg of an individual mine has to be nerfed. As it stands, it is just too hard to effectively cover even just one entrance unless that entrance is also a choke point. And how many pilots would use a choke point to access an objective knowing that there is and enemy Predator roaming about_

I think that if there were more mines on the ground, getting in a fight would go more your way, when your opponent takes mine damage for walking or landing.

Edited by Loklov_Krein_Rah, March 28 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[Xacius]

Desert_Fox2, on March 28 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

The Pred is completely fine where it is. I was playing with a level 28 the other day in DM. He had a Pred and dominated the match. I could not win against him. I tried everything. He one every time at CQC. That tells me that if a person does bad in the Pred it isn't their cup of tea or they are just bad in it.

"I lost to a Predator, so it must be balanced."

Completely false.

[Loklov_Krein_Rah]

+1 and lol