42 replies to this topic

[Kopra]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 08 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I have next seasons rule list:

• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.
  
• Brawler.

It goes on like that for 137 pages.

Am I just seeing things or do we have two posts here_

Edited by Kopra, August 08 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[nepacaka]

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.........\.|.[||.||..uuuu.].|./.............................
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.........{C}.....o-|..|-o...<#>...........................
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[deeman010]

MAKE DEM REPLAYS AVAILABLE PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JeffMagnum]

Hyginos, on August 08 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

[HFC]breadeffect, on August 08 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Also, Incen ban or Papa ban needs to be in place.  That thing is just far too strong for its own good.  Or at least something to indirectly nerf the tech/incen combo.

Force a choice_ tech or incin, not both.

I'm not sure I have a problem with the incin and tech though. Its strong, sure, but both teams can play it, and in the current state both teams know that there will be an incin and a tech on both sides. It may be boring but no one is deriving an unfair advantage from it.

To be fair, you could use the same logic to argue against any of the artificial rules that the TPG organizers have created. Both teams could run five Slug SS and a Tech on Front Line, but that'd be extremely tedious and frustrating for everyone involved.

[Daronicus]

JeffMagnum, on August 09 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Hyginos, on August 08 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

[HFC]breadeffect, on August 08 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Also, Incen ban or Papa ban needs to be in place.  That thing is just far too strong for its own good.  Or at least something to indirectly nerf the tech/incen combo.

Force a choice_ tech or incin, not both.

I'm not sure I have a problem with the incin and tech though. Its strong, sure, but both teams can play it, and in the current state both teams know that there will be an incin and a tech on both sides. It may be boring but no one is deriving an unfair advantage from it.

To be fair, you could use the same logic to argue against any of the artificial rules that the TPG organizers have created. Both teams could run five Slug SS and a Tech on Front Line, but that'd be extremely tedious and frustrating for everyone involved.

Pretty much.  It isn't that the Incin is essential that makes it ban-worthy.  It's that it shuts down aggression extremely hard with its combination of crazy high damage and heat-dispensing ability.  If you get hit by just a few SAARE shots, you basically can't fight even if you get healed to full just because you're at half heat already.  Nobody likes overheating without even taking a shot.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a forced choice between Tech and Incin, just to see how it plays out.

That said, my opinion is perhaps not the most objective.  I believe I've made my opinions on that particular abomination mech known.

[CounterlogicMan]

Incin tech combo particularly strong in tdm. Which in itself is easy to abuse a few kill lead on most maps. Really makes a match stagnate. I am glad ma is a real consideration for next season.


Glad I can play next season....was bummed I had to drop out of the first one due to time constraints.

Btw looking for a team

[Leonhardt]

[HFC]Daronicus, on August 09 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

It's that it shuts down aggression extremely hard

Could say the same thing with Brawler and its amazingly high amount of health when you add health orbs and a tech, you could say the same thing for a good SS which can shut down half of a map at times (depending on the map visibility of course), and of course you could make the case that the tech also shuts down aggression the hardest since it just continuously heals anyone that gets hit when trading. Ah and lets not forget the Gren with its ability on can get triple if not whole team kills with the splash and damage output. Even just by itself the Gren outputs enough damage and splash to push entire teams back.

To single out the Incin as the cause of a problem of aggression is ridiculous because the mech itself requires the user to be aggressive. The mech shows up on radar constantly, has a super low fuel tank and cannot trade around corners without a tech. It has the highest DPS, but to trade evenly with a TOW user it has to hit 2 saare shots directly meaning that you gotta nut up or shut up when you engage there is no super effective in between (also not to mention how slow the saare shots are so easy to dodge at range). Not to mention that whenever the mech stops to heal (using papa the only one worth using) it cannot fire for ~3 seconds. That may not sound bad, but think about all the times you stop and heal around corners before your enemy comes and you will realize that it is huge. The Incin is a mech that requires the user to make far fewer mistakes than other mechs or else they will be punished hard. The tech helps mitigate this and so does team play, but players are so busy cowering behind their team they often don't see how fragile the mech really is. Land an EMP on it and you have not just the EMP time to kill it, but the extra ~3 seconds it takes for it to spin up and fire again. The Incin has more weaknesses then any other mech I have used (which is every singe one in the game) and claiming that it alone puts down aggression is ridiculous. People put down their own aggression when they give up trying to push and decide to sit back or think that the game is over because they don't have the lead.

Despite all of those reasons not to be aggressive Omni (Uni, Barbie Dream Corvettes) were extremely aggressive against the same or similar line ups with Incinerators. How is it possible that a team is able to be so aggressive when a single mech/mech combo on the enemy team is able to beat back the entire team with just a few shots_ Apparently we were so why can't you or anyone else be just as aggressive_

The brawler is particularly weak to the Incinerators balls of fire that cause heat because the Brawler has a really low heat allowance. Personally I feel the Incin's ability to increase peoples heat with ballz of fire should be at the very least toned down if not removed. That being said it is not so incredible as to stop aggression from entire teams, that has not been the case throughout the entire league for our team even when we were not using an Incin and there were plenty of games we saw streamed that did not have this problem even though one or more of the teams was using an Incin.


tl;dr_ The Incin is not the root cause for a lack of aggression teams lacking coordination and confidence cause their own aggression problems. Omni never had a problem being aggressive no matter the mech line up including against Incin tech combo's.

[Ker4u]

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tl;dr_ The Incin is not the root cause for a lack of aggression teams lacking coordination and confidence cause their own aggression problems. Omni never had a problem being aggressive no matter the mech line up including against Incin tech combo's.

i got this impression from most tpg teams i watched, well coordinated attacks would improve the situation but if defending teams  plays on same level it's still in advantage, basically you could be agressive just because enemy team was letting you do it

Edited by Ker4u, August 10 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

tl;dr_ The Incin is not the root cause for a lack of aggression teams lacking coordination and confidence cause their own aggression problems. Omni never had a problem being aggressive no matter the mech line up including against Incin tech combo's.

That said, Omni kind of outclassed several of their opponents. Perhaps not the most objective measure.

[Leonhardt]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 10 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

tl;dr_ The Incin is not the root cause for a lack of aggression teams lacking coordination and confidence cause their own aggression problems. Omni never had a problem being aggressive no matter the mech line up including against Incin tech combo's.

That said, Omni kind of outclassed several of their opponents. Perhaps not the most objective measure.

True, but there are other games with different teams and similar outcomes. Here are two example videos I found in a thread filled with old game footage from the league.



Both teams have Incin and one gets pushed on constantly and loses despite having the "all powerful aggression stopping" incin.

http://www.twitch.tv/hyginos/c/4250061

Again both teams have an Incin and are aggressive throughout the match. In fact right in the beginning TAW makes a really aggressive push onto the other team despite the Incin and other mechs being there.

Ker4u, on August 10 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

i got this impression from most tpg teams i watched, well coordinated attacks would improve the situation but if defending teams  plays on same level it's still in advantage, basically you could be agressive just because enemy team was letting you do it

Answer is in the spoiler below since it is long and would make this post huge.

Spoiler

In my experience in the league a well coordinated offensive push on any map that was playable during the official league matches (not uptown) was not only possible, but just as successful as defending. Often defending teams take positions that are strong, but have weaknesses if exploited properly. A great example of this is on Origin. There are 3 places on Origin most teams try to hold up and defend that being the two platform areas that are flat and the middle AA. The two platform areas seem really great until you realize that their is no cover once the enemy team evens the height advantage by taking one or both of the sides of the platform. The AA is rather difficult to hold because despite having decent cover it is too small for a full team of 6 to hold up without getting destroyed by splash from properly set up teams.

The problem is not that teams of equal skill were advantaged by defending its that teams of equal skill did not practice the proper way to be aggressive since pretty much everyone tries to take the easy way out and defend in Hawken. Its a winning pub strategy and its the strategy ingrained in most players since they have started playing Hawken. How often in a pub do you see a coordinated push_ Almost never because of the uncoordinated play inherent in the system of public play which gives defense an advantage in pubs. Its a lot easier to respond to players in trouble if they are right next to you as opposed to across the map especially when they are not telling you what is happening on their end.

There were only 3 teams we played that even attempted to be aggressive and that was Nice Baths team "Your It!" TAW and Vanguard. Of the 3 "Your It!" was the most coordinated because they regularly practiced with us. Vanguard would push, but often was so uncoordinated they couldn't follow up on any of the advantages they had gained for themselves, a constant pyrrhic victory at most points of aggression. TAW was well coordinated at times and were able to make large pushes in mass, but had more trouble accomplishing this when split up. With more practice they could have been very good at being aggressive.

Every other team played corner games and attempted to whittle down the enemy team so they could come in for an easy victory or sit where they are and remain at a stalemate that could be in their favor depending on the score. Not to say all teams did not use this strategy in some form or another, but most used this as their main strategy which is ultimately a defensive one. If your basic strategy is to sit back and wait for an opening then yeah there will be very little aggression regardless of mech composition.

Edited by Leonhardt, August 10 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Sylhiri]

You could always test different rules and see what fits. Might be changing them anyway if Hawken patches before or during the season.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Answer is in the spoiler below since it is long and would make this post huge.

What's wrong with long posts of huge textwalls_ ;_;

[Leonhardt]

AsianJoyKiller, on August 10 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Answer is in the spoiler below since it is long and would make this post huge.

What's wrong with long posts of huge textwalls_ ;_;

People always go "nope" and scroll down. lol

[Kopra]

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

[HFC]Daronicus, on August 09 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

It's that it shuts down aggression extremely hard

Could say the same thing with Brawler and its amazingly high amount of health when you add health orbs and a tech

Can't an Incinerator also have an amazingly high amount of armor with repair orbs and a tech that synergizes with the Incinerator far more than a Brawler does_

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you could say the same thing for a good SS which can shut down half of a map at times (depending on the map visibility of course),

At least the Sharpshooter is squishy and slow for a B-class and has actual weaknesses, such as low DPS and poor CQC ability. As long as you can flank and surprise (which might then be tricky due to map layout) the Sharpshooter in a reasonable time, it's counterable.

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and of course you could make the case that the tech also shuts down aggression the hardest since it just continuously heals anyone that gets hit when trading.

Wasn't it shown some time ago how techless games result in lower killcounts in TDM_ People playing too cautiously because there is no one to heal them. A tech forces for an offensive flanking action, or something to that effect.

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Ah and lets not forget the Gren with its ability on can get triple if not whole team kills with the splash and damage output. Even just by itself the Gren outputs enough damage and splash to push entire teams back.

Difference: the Grenadier has to take breaks and with a Rev-GL opens up a weakness to flying and mobile enemies to which you don't have a high DPS hitscan weapon to fall back on. With a Vulcan you have reliable anti-air but can't split up grounded groups behind corners as easily. Tradeoffs.

An Incinerator doesn't have to take breaks to suppress an area and has reliable anti-air as well.

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To single out the Incin as the cause of a problem of aggression is ridiculous because the mech itself requires the user to be aggressive.

Suppressing an area by spamming 14m radius fireballs at a distance (which was what mostly happened on the Incinerators on TPG) is aggressive play_

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The mech shows up on radar constantly, has a super low fuel tank and cannot trade around corners without a tech.

If you don't want to show up on radar, stop shooting. It applies to every mech, it's not uniquely an Incinerator problem. If you are worried about spinup time, you stop shooting and just tap the M1 key every now and then to spin the gun. Properly managed and you only have to wait 1 second to shoot bullets. When you no longer care if you show on radar, press M1 to shoot. Being able to shoot constantly is a boon even if you show up on radar, anyway.

As for fuel problems, fuel converters, anyone_

As for trading, C-classes tend to have bigger hitboxes and thus show up earlier on corners. That's a C-class problem in general. Isn't the point of the Incinerator to have a tech up your metallic buttocks to provide gross amounts of support, suppression and DPS anyway_

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It has the highest DPS, but to trade evenly with a TOW user it has to hit 2 saare shots directly meaning that you gotta nut up or shut up when you engage there is no super effective in between (also not to mention how slow the saare shots are so easy to dodge at range).

Actually to trade evenly to a direct hit TOW, a SAARE user has to miss the target twice only by 10.0625 meters to deal exactly 125 damage. Or you can hit one directly and miss another one by a smidgen less than 14 meters.

Most projectiles are easy to dodge at range. The only exception to this is the Heat Cannon due to its speed and big splash. SAARE's saving grace is that you can spam it more often than enemies can dodge.

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Not to mention that whenever the mech stops to heal (using papa the only one worth using) it cannot fire for ~3 seconds. That may not sound bad, but think about all the times you stop and heal around corners before your enemy comes and you will realize that it is huge.

Then don't repair near the enemy lines. Or let the tech heal you up.

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The Incin is a mech that requires the user to make far fewer mistakes than other mechs or else they will be punished hard. The tech helps mitigate this and so does team play, but players are so busy cowering behind their team they often don't see how fragile the mech really is.

How exactly is the SAARE launcher punishing with its less than dodge cooldown reload time, huge AoE, comparatively longer radius until falloff_ The entire weapon screams forgiveness. It's a Corsair KLA grenade mode on crack.

Is PAPA punishing_ Only if you let yourself overheat. How often that happens_ How often does one trip down and break a nose when strolling on the sidewalk_

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Land an EMP on it and you have not just the EMP time to kill it, but the extra ~3 seconds it takes for it to spin up and fire again. The Incin has more weaknesses then any other mech I have used (which is every singe one in the game) and claiming that it alone puts down aggression is ridiculous. People put down their own aggression when they give up trying to push and decide to sit back or think that the game is over because they don't have the lead.

There. An EMP does make an Incinerator more frustrated than other mechs given the situation. Thankfully the Incinerator has the ability to boost away at a speed of 30.08 meters per second and the armor to absorb more attacks than a Vanguard doing the same. Either way, an EMP counters C-classes like no other, if you can get close enough to hit it reliably.


Are you honestly saying an Incinerator has more weaknesses than say, an EOC Rocketeer_

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Despite all of those reasons not to be aggressive Omni (Uni, Barbie Dream Corvettes) were extremely aggressive against the same or similar line ups with Incinerators. How is it possible that a team is able to be so aggressive when a single mech/mech combo on the enemy team is able to beat back the entire team with just a few shots_ Apparently we were so why can't you or anyone else be just as aggressive_

The brawler is particularly weak to the Incinerators balls of fire that cause heat because the Brawler has a really low heat allowance. Personally I feel the Incin's ability to increase peoples heat with ballz of fire should be at the very least toned down if not removed. That being said it is not so incredible as to stop aggression from entire teams, that has not been the case throughout the entire league for our team even when we were not using an Incin and there were plenty of games we saw streamed that did not have this problem even though one or more of the teams was using an Incin.


tl;dr_ The Incin is not the root cause for a lack of aggression teams lacking coordination and confidence cause their own aggression problems. Omni never had a problem being aggressive no matter the mech line up including against Incin tech combo's.

Kudos to people who could work around the combo, but it still doesn't mean the mech is fine or that it's not a part of the lack of aggression part. I believe the root for the lack of aggression goes deeper into the game's mechanics and indeed, how confident one is to be aggressive, but a mech like the Incinerator does not certainly help it.

[Sylhiri]

Kopra, on August 10 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Wasn't it shown some time ago how techless games result in lower killcounts in TDM_ People playing too cautiously because there is no one to heal them. A tech forces for an offensive flanking action, or something to that effect.

From what I heard techless games weren't tested as much as they should have been.

It's not like this hasn't been anything new. Before the Incinerator, the Raider+Tech was the go to mech for comp play. They nerfed the Raider and it wasn't as useful, then the Incinerator came along and the tech got another pairing. It'll be that way until the Incin is nerfed and the tech finds another host to feed off of. The difference is that the Raider isn't a defensive mech, when it had a tech it was made for a very forceful push that broke deathballs and made MA a living hell. The Incinerator has enough health and can spam good amounts of DPS almost infinitely with a bonus of an AOE explosive weapon, it can both push and defend.

You can ban the Incinerator from play but it'll just go to the second best option, which in this meta is a C class. Incinerator can still defend well without a tech though as it does have the power to shut down a pathway for as long as it wants, The Gren produces too much heat to be as effective as Incinerator like that.

"ADH can't do support mechs well".

[Leonhardt]

My reply's are in lovely blue because I am lazy. lol

Kopra, on August 10 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

[HFC]Daronicus, on August 09 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

It's that it shuts down aggression extremely hard

Could say the same thing with Brawler and its amazingly high amount of health when you add health orbs and a tech

Can't an Incinerator also have an amazingly high amount of armor with repair orbs and a tech that synergizes with the Incinerator far more than a Brawler does_

Exactly. Both mechs are rather similar in this regard taking out the Incin will only have the Brawler replace its role as main stay for the tech on most teams. Except the Brawler is a safer pick since it has a corner game and more fuel. While the Incin may have similar health remember that it does not have burst like the brawler. It has to maintain a line of sight on the target and expose itself to damage in order to dish it out.

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you could say the same thing for a good SS which can shut down half of a map at times (depending on the map visibility of course),

At least the Sharpshooter is squishy and slow for a B-class and has actual weaknesses, such as low DPS and poor CQC ability. As long as you can flank and surprise (which might then be tricky due to map layout) the Sharpshooter in a reasonable time, it's counterable.

The sharpshooter is in an nearly unplayable state to be completely honest. That mech has been the subject to so many nerfs there are only 2 people in Hawken right now that can use it effectively in a match by virtue of target acuasition and accuracy. Pointing out that the SS has so many weaknesses and saying that it is counterable is not a very good argument. Especially when the Incin has plenty of weaknesses built into the mech like the fact that a single EMP makes the mech useless for almost 6 seconds and might I remind you landing an EMP on a C-class mech that is forced to stay in line of sight in order to do serious damage is not hard at all. The Inin also has a fuel tank so low it can barely climb more than 1 building on most maps let alone keep up with a team crossing a map or repositioning. More often then not the Incin is left behind because while its fastish it putters out in about 4 seconds.

While the Incin has high DPS it has NO corner game as in against a competent player who can play a corner and trade game the Incin will lose every time because it takes 2 saare shots to equal 1 TOW. Play safe as an Incin and you lose the trade move too far in and you lose in positioning because you don't have the fuel enough to get out.

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and of course you could make the case that the tech also shuts down aggression the hardest since it just continuously heals anyone that gets hit when trading.

Wasn't it shown some time ago how techless games result in lower killcounts in TDM_ People playing too cautiously because there is no one to heal them. A tech forces for an offensive flanking action, or something to that effect.

Lol what when was this proven_ I've been around since Alpha 2 and I can tell you the many many games I played before the tech came out games were far more offensive and the TDM killcounts were much higher. In fact the end game for TDM was 50 kills not 40 pre-tech patch. Most games reached that 50 limit too and it was not uncommon to run into a game with close to 80 or 90 kills total.

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Ah and lets not forget the Gren with its ability on can get triple if not whole team kills with the splash and damage output. Even just by itself the Gren outputs enough damage and splash to push entire teams back.

Difference: the Grenadier has to take breaks and with a Rev-GL opens up a weakness to flying and mobile enemies to which you don't have a high DPS hitscan weapon to fall back on. With a Vulcan you have reliable anti-air but can't split up grounded groups behind corners as easily. Tradeoffs.

An Incinerator doesn't have to take breaks to suppress an area and has reliable anti-air as well.

The anti-air reliability of the Papa is almost nill since its fall off range is incredibly short. If the flying target isn't in your face then you have to hit them with saare shots to be effective. Don't believe me_ You can look at the fall off range and numbers don't know where that page went, but I'll find it later.

First of all I see Hestoned hit Rev-GL shots on air targets all the time especially C and B classes. Second of all the time you have to wait for the heat to go down is almost nothing plus you can heal relatively safely while you wait. If you look at the Incin it cannot heal because if whomever the Incin was trading with pushes forward the Incin comes up with no damage output for 3 seconds (talk about getting caught with your pants down). Once again the Gren has arguablly one of the best corner games in Hawken so what it lacks in ability to fire forever it gains in straight burst potential and corner games. It also does just as good a job suppressing entire areas of the map.

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To single out the Incin as the cause of a problem of aggression is ridiculous because the mech itself requires the user to be aggressive.

Suppressing an area by spamming 14m radius fireballs at a distance (which was what mostly happened on the Incinerators on TPG) is aggressive play_

How players choose to use their mechs is not my concern. If they decide that they are more useful to their team splashing a corner rather then being offensive and entraping the other team that is their decision. Grenadier players do the same thing they sit behind an entrance and splash a corner until they can move in. Saying that the Incinerator can do this indefinatly makes it worse is just straight up horse fuzzy bunny and we all know it. If a Gren is around the corner spamming Rev-GL and G's I am not going around the corner even if I think he is overheated because we all know good players don't overheat and it takes so little time to do so I am gonna get smacked in the face as soon as I round the corner anyway so there is no real advantage as far as locking down areas and zoning. Sure the Gren might wait for a second or so, but this is a false opening and one that is not used by good players or teams.

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The mech shows up on radar constantly, has a super low fuel tank and cannot trade around corners without a tech.

If you don't want to show up on radar, stop shooting. It applies to every mech, it's not uniquely an Incinerator problem. If you are worried about spinup time, you stop shooting and just tap the M1 key every now and then to spin the gun. Properly managed and you only have to wait 1 second to shoot bullets. When you no longer care if you show on radar, press M1 to shoot. Being able to shoot constantly is a boon even if you show up on radar, anyway.

You may not be aware of this, but the papa has a spin up time that exceeds when it first starts shooting. What this means is when you start shooting the papa even if it was spinning a bit before its initial hits will be far lower DPS then if you had just maintained constant fire. You are not properly managing the papa if you are not shooting at full DPS the entire time including out of fights. Maintaining a constant high DPS fire rate is key to Incinerator use. I would know I played it in most of Omni's (Uni) games. Being able to shoot constantly is great, but showing up on radar constantly is not something to shrugg off especially when you are not the only one punished. Every other mech around me is also punished by my constant apperance on radar. If you think being on radar constantly is worth having some of the best DPS in the game then I suggest you try and experience what it is like to go up againts a good corner game. You will find the tradeoff is not as nice as it sounds on paper.

As for fuel problems, fuel converters, anyone_

Fuel converters on the Incin are only so helpful. I have used many different builds with fuel converters. The one I have on right now uses the little 1% converter and truth be told that is just so I can scoot around corners when getting shot. Beyond that it is useless because the rate of return even on the higher slot converters is not worth what you give up for those slots.

As for trading, C-classes tend to have bigger hitboxes and thus show up earlier on corners. That's a C-class problem in general. Isn't the point of the Incinerator to have a tech up your metallic buttocks to provide gross amounts of support, suppression and DPS anyway_

If the tech is on any class you don't trade with it and the Incin is no exception. It requires a tech to even have a corner game so a team can use this to their advantage. If you know the tech is on the Incin then simply switch targets or fronts. Hitting the opponent that is constantly healing is foolish regardless of who is being healed.

The Brawler is one of the best mechs in the game for trading period. It is a C-class and it has 800 health and it has a whole lotta burst. It can dish out enough to put down anything before it hits 300 health. A good brawler will let you hit them a bit because when they hit you in the trade they win the trade because they start out with far more health then a lower class its just simple math. Go even and you win. The Incin cannot go even without hitting twice so it has no corner game without a tech healing it to mitigate the trade that is the difference between it and other C-classes its a simple ratio based on damage out for damage in.

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It has the highest DPS, but to trade evenly with a TOW user it has to hit 2 saare shots directly meaning that you gotta nut up or shut up when you engage there is no super effective in between (also not to mention how slow the saare shots are so easy to dodge at range).

Actually to trade evenly to a direct hit TOW, a SAARE user has to miss the target twice only by 10.0625 meters to deal exactly 125 damage. Or you can hit one directly and miss another one by a smidgen less than 14 meters.

I have been calling for splash reduction on the saare since it was released, but you still have to hit the enemy twice to count for 1 TOW hit and the TOW user could just remote det around a corner and never even look at the Incin. Point being that the Incin still has no real corner game against a good player.

Most projectiles are easy to dodge at range. The only exception to this is the Heat Cannon due to its speed and big splash. SAARE's saving grace is that you can spam it more often than enemies can dodge.

Good players only need to dodge once to get to cover. If you are standing out in the open against a high DPS anything you are gonna get put down hard. The fact that the saare shoots so quickly is the only reason it is viable. If it shot slower it would be rather useless with the current damage values.

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Not to mention that whenever the mech stops to heal (using papa the only one worth using) it cannot fire for ~3 seconds. That may not sound bad, but think about all the times you stop and heal around corners before your enemy comes and you will realize that it is huge.

Then don't repair near the enemy lines. Or let the tech heal you up.

The further away from the enemy you are the less help you are to your team. This is a huge weakness and not one to be taken so lightly. It is telling to me that you find this to be no problem as it suggests that you don't have much experience using the Incin at a high level. This is probably the biggest weakness the mech has and if the tech has to constantly heal the Incin whenever they back up that is pushing potential lost.

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The Incin is a mech that requires the user to make far fewer mistakes than other mechs or else they will be punished hard. The tech helps mitigate this and so does team play, but players are so busy cowering behind their team they often don't see how fragile the mech really is.

How exactly is the SAARE launcher punishing with its less than dodge cooldown reload time, huge AoE, comparatively longer radius until falloff_ The entire weapon screams forgiveness. It's a Corsair KLA grenade mode on crack.

The saare launcher_ I said the Incin as a whole is punishing not the saare launcher. The saare launcher is the saving grace of the mech it is what makes all the other problems worthwhile. The constant radar presence, low fuel tank, lost damage due to spin up on both self healing and EMP's.

Is PAPA punishing_ Only if you let yourself overheat. How often that happens_ How often does one trip down and break a nose when strolling on the sidewalk_

Papa is punishing to the extent that it is useless at even somewhat medium range and has a really long spin up time that resets whenever you are sneezed on by an EMP or the "C" button. Again you isolated one of the better aspects of the Incin and made it seem like I was singling this out to be a punishing aspect of the mech. I am talking about the mech as a whole and you are pointing to one thing and saying the whole thing is easy. You cannot just reduce the scope of the argument and call it the whole that is short sighted and frankly quite rude.

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Land an EMP on it and you have not just the EMP time to kill it, but the extra ~3 seconds it takes for it to spin up and fire again. The Incin has more weaknesses then any other mech I have used (which is every singe one in the game) and claiming that it alone puts down aggression is ridiculous. People put down their own aggression when they give up trying to push and decide to sit back or think that the game is over because they don't have the lead.

There. An EMP does make an Incinerator more frustrated than other mechs given the situation. Thankfully the Incinerator has the ability to boost away at a speed of 30.08 meters per second and the armor to absorb more attacks than a Vanguard doing the same. Either way, an EMP counters C-classes like no other, if you can get close enough to hit it reliably.

You forget to mention that it can only boost away at that speed for almost less then half the time of the Vanguard. So while its useful to run away for short distances it is not gonna help you when chased and you cannot even fire back especially if you had been boosting before you got hit which most people do since boosting is part of fighting in Hawken.

Are you honestly saying an Incinerator has more weaknesses than say, an EOC Rocketeer_

Hellfire MIssiles are so easy to dodge/mitigate at a distance and up close that the Rocketeer and the Bruiser are weaker then the Incin, but as far as inherent weaknesses of the mech itself the Incinerator trumps the "EOC Rocketeer" because the only barrier on that mech to its proper use other then hellfire sillyness is the skill to use the EOC and maintain good positioning with the rocketeer. The "EOC Rocketeer" has nothing to micromanage, a plentiful fuel tank and an autoaim secondary to boot. Its biggest weakness is letting someone in close, but that is minor when compared to something like constant radar presence, really small fuel tank, and no corner game potential plus the need to micromanage firing rates based on heat generation of yourself, friendlies and enemies.

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Despite all of those reasons not to be aggressive Omni (Uni, Barbie Dream Corvettes) were extremely aggressive against the same or similar line ups with Incinerators. How is it possible that a team is able to be so aggressive when a single mech/mech combo on the enemy team is able to beat back the entire team with just a few shots_ Apparently we were so why can't you or anyone else be just as aggressive_

The brawler is particularly weak to the Incinerators balls of fire that cause heat because the Brawler has a really low heat allowance. Personally I feel the Incin's ability to increase peoples heat with ballz of fire should be at the very least toned down if not removed. That being said it is not so incredible as to stop aggression from entire teams, that has not been the case throughout the entire league for our team even when we were not using an Incin and there were plenty of games we saw streamed that did not have this problem even though one or more of the teams was using an Incin.


tl;dr_ The Incin is not the root cause for a lack of aggression teams lacking coordination and confidence cause their own aggression problems. Omni never had a problem being aggressive no matter the mech line up including against Incin tech combo's.

Kudos to people who could work around the combo, but it still doesn't mean the mech is fine or that it's not a part of the lack of aggression part. I believe the root for the lack of aggression goes deeper into the game's mechanics and indeed, how confident one is to be aggressive, but a mech like the Incinerator does not certainly help it.

My point was simply that the Incinerator is not the root cause of people playing defensively/passively and once you start banning mechs for reasons put before you then you have to start applying the same logic to other mechs in a serious way. If we ban the Incin for that reason then we should also ban the Brawler, the Tech, the SS, and the Gren because they all do the same thing in different ways.

Edited by Leonhardt, August 10 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[Kopra]

Replies in plum, as they taste yum.

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

My reply's are in lovely blue because I am lazy. lol

Kopra, on August 10 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Leonhardt, on August 10 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

[HFC]Daronicus, on August 09 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

It's that it shuts down aggression extremely hard

Could say the same thing with Brawler and its amazingly high amount of health when you add health orbs and a tech

Can't an Incinerator also have an amazingly high amount of armor with repair orbs and a tech that synergizes with the Incinerator far more than a Brawler does_

Exactly. Both mechs are rather similar in this regard taking out the Incin will only have the Brawler replace its role as main stay for the tech on most teams. Except the Brawler is a safer pick since it has a corner game and more fuel. While the Incin may have similar health remember that it does not have burst like the brawler. It has to maintain a line of sight on the target and expose itself to damage in order to dish it out.

Ah, choices. A Brawler might have the corner play but is a much slower mech and as you said, can't afford to miss much because of overheat. The Flak also has a worse range than PPA. The Brawler does have better close range anti-air capability and indeed, burst in the form of a single shot. PPA could be considered a burst weapon due to its high ROF and high damage, too. In my opinion the Brawler + tech combination does not break the game, as the tech cannot heal practically forever and the Brawler being slower with limited range, you can play around that limitation easier.


A Brawler might have more fuel but the Incinerator is overall faster, both in short term and long term (the higher boost and running speed compensate for the short fuel tank). Based on my own "Grand Prix" test (lap around the training facility map) for general movement. The Incinerator finished the lap in about 35 seconds while the Brawler did it in 40 seconds. I took into account the combinations of boosting and dodging and took the average. I find the test handy, but is it the most accurate measure of mobility, probably not.

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you could say the same thing for a good SS which can shut down half of a map at times (depending on the map visibility of course),

At least the Sharpshooter is squishy and slow for a B-class and has actual weaknesses, such as low DPS and poor CQC ability. As long as you can flank and surprise (which might then be tricky due to map layout) the Sharpshooter in a reasonable time, it's counterable.

The sharpshooter is in an nearly unplayable state to be completely honest. That mech has been the subject to so many nerfs there are only 2 people in Hawken right now that can use it effectively in a match by virtue of target acuasition and accuracy.

The Sharpshooter still has the most reliable long range punch of any mech. Can't dodge hitscan. It's better to then have it be hard to use than it being a mandatory mech.



Pointing out that the SS has so many weaknesses and saying that it is counterable is not a very good argument. Especially when the Incin has plenty of weaknesses built into the mech like the fact that a single EMP makes the mech useless for almost 6 seconds and might I remind you landing an EMP on a C-class mech that is forced to stay in line of sight in order to do serious damage is not hard at all. The Inin also has a fuel tank so low it can barely climb more than 1 building on most maps let alone keep up with a team crossing a map or repositioning. More often then not the Incin is left behind because while its fastish it putters out in about 4 seconds.

Can you please list all the weaknesses of the Incinerator mech_ Every single one that comes into your mind. Especially compared to the other C-class mechs. While the EMP and post-repair spinup are obvious, stuff like inability to climb as efficiently (of which importance varies on the played map, as not all maps have multi-platform buildings)

The boost duration is actually 9 seconds, not 4, unless you tap a lot of spacebar.



While the Incin has high DPS it has NO corner game as in against a competent player who can play a corner and trade game the Incin will lose every time because it takes 2 saare shots to equal 1 TOW. Play safe as an Incin and you lose the trade move too far in and you lose in positioning because you don't have the fuel enough to get out.

DPS, Suppression, Support. It does lack in the corner game if you are going by the traditional peekaboo with detonated secondaries, but it does not need it because it has the aforementioned out of the wazoo. Any other C-class mech will simply lose in a straight fight you can force with your higher boost speed and high armor.

How exactly do you lose fuel when playing safe and spamming a chokepoint_

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and of course you could make the case that the tech also shuts down aggression the hardest since it just continuously heals anyone that gets hit when trading.

Wasn't it shown some time ago how techless games result in lower killcounts in TDM_ People playing too cautiously because there is no one to heal them. A tech forces for an offensive flanking action, or something to that effect.

Lol what when was this proven_ I've been around since Alpha 2 and I can tell you the many many games I played before the tech came out games were far more offensive and the TDM killcounts were much higher. In fact the end game for TDM was 50 kills not 40 pre-tech patch. Most games reached that 50 limit too and it was not uncommon to run into a game with close to 80 or 90 kills total.


So apparently it should have been researched more. Note, I did ask in the thread how this conclusion was conducted, but never got an answer. But here's the link to that statement.


https://community.pl..._20#entry520993

Spoiler

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Ah and lets not forget the Gren with its ability on can get triple if not whole team kills with the splash and damage output. Even just by itself the Gren outputs enough damage and splash to push entire teams back.

Difference: the Grenadier has to take breaks and with a Rev-GL opens up a weakness to flying and mobile enemies to which you don't have a high DPS hitscan weapon to fall back on. With a Vulcan you have reliable anti-air but can't split up grounded groups behind corners as easily. Tradeoffs.

An Incinerator doesn't have to take breaks to suppress an area and has reliable anti-air as well.

The anti-air reliability of the Papa is almost nill since its fall off range is incredibly short. If the flying target isn't in your face then you have to hit them with saare shots to be effective. Don't believe me_ You can look at the fall off range and numbers don't know where that page went, but I'll find it later.

First of all I see Hestoned hit Rev-GL shots on air targets all the time especially C and B classes. Second of all the time you have to wait for the heat to go down is almost nothing plus you can heal relatively safely while you wait. If you look at the Incin it cannot heal because if whomever the Incin was trading with pushes forward the Incin comes up with no damage output for 3 seconds (talk about getting caught with your pants down). Once again the Gren has arguablly one of the best corner games in Hawken so what it lacks in ability to fire forever it gains in straight burst potential and corner games. It also does just as good a job suppressing entire areas of the map.

https://docs.google....1#gid=416460446

I wouldn't call 70m start of falloff incredibly short, especially when the falloff stop is 200m and the minimum damage is 9.75. That's 0.25 damage lost every 10 meters after falloff start, or 2.0 DPS lost every 10 meters. This is typically around 4 DPS lost for other weapons, so the PPA is actually quite decent as a ranged option.

Hitting middle range midair targets is considerably harder and less reliable than spewing bullets out of a Vulcan. If there's a player that can dodge a wrench, they can dodge a Rev-GL, no matter how accurate one is with their shots.

So, you say that the time to wait for the heat down is almost nothing_ If you have maximum heat, it takes you 4.43 seconds to cool down. If 4.43 seconds is almost nothing to you, then an Incinerator not being able to shoot for 3 seconds should be even less of a trouble.

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To single out the Incin as the cause of a problem of aggression is ridiculous because the mech itself requires the user to be aggressive.

Suppressing an area by spamming 14m radius fireballs at a distance (which was what mostly happened on the Incinerators on TPG) is aggressive play_

How players choose to use their mechs is not my concern. If they decide that they are more useful to their team splashing a corner rather then being offensive and entraping the other team that is their decision. Grenadier players do the same thing they sit behind an entrance and splash a corner until they can move in. Saying that the Incinerator can do this indefinatly makes it worse is just straight up horse fuzzy bunny and we all know it. If a Gren is around the corner spamming Rev-GL and G's I am not going around the corner even if I think he is overheated because we all know good players don't overheat and it takes so little time to do so I am gonna get smacked in the face as soon as I round the corner anyway so there is no real advantage as far as locking down areas and zoning. Sure the Gren might wait for a second or so, but this is a false opening and one that is not used by good players or teams.

4.43 seconds breaks versus no breaks. Hmm. I wonder which one will be better at securing a corner or several. Locking down a path is not useful in a game where most of the flank routes are lengthy and position is key_ Ok. Of course you don't go through that corner that is being spammed, you are forced to take the other route and have less options. When needed the Incinerator can switch to spamming the area that enemies are actually coming from.

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The mech shows up on radar constantly, has a super low fuel tank and cannot trade around corners without a tech.

If you don't want to show up on radar, stop shooting. It applies to every mech, it's not uniquely an Incinerator problem. If you are worried about spinup time, you stop shooting and just tap the M1 key every now and then to spin the gun. Properly managed and you only have to wait 1 second to shoot bullets. When you no longer care if you show on radar, press M1 to shoot. Being able to shoot constantly is a boon even if you show up on radar, anyway.

You may not be aware of this, but the papa has a spin up time that exceeds when it first starts shooting. What this means is when you start shooting the papa even if it was spinning a bit before its initial hits will be far lower DPS then if you had just maintained constant fire. You are not properly managing the papa if you are not shooting at full DPS the entire time including out of fights. Maintaining a constant high DPS fire rate is key to Incinerator use. I would know I played it in most of Omni's (Uni) games. Being able to shoot constantly is great, but showing up on radar constantly is not something to shrugg off especially when you are not the only one punished. Every other mech around me is also punished by my constant apperance on radar. If you think being on radar constantly is worth having some of the best DPS in the game then I suggest you try and experience what it is like to go up againts a good corner game. You will find the tradeoff is not as nice as it sounds on paper.

I am fully aware of it. t takes you a little over a second to go into full auto from clicking M1 to merely spin the gun to be ready. Of course you fire the gun more when in a firefight or when you are anticipating one to happen in 1 second. The argument was that you don't have to show up on radar constantly, especially out of combat.



As for fuel problems, fuel converters, anyone_

Fuel converters on the Incin are only so helpful. I have used many different builds with fuel converters. The one I have on right now uses the little 1% converter and truth be told that is just so I can scoot around corners when getting shot. Beyond that it is useless because the rate of return even on the higher slot converters is not worth what you give up for those slots.

Mind telling what you are instead using_

As for trading, C-classes tend to have bigger hitboxes and thus show up earlier on corners. That's a C-class problem in general. Isn't the point of the Incinerator to have a tech up your metallic buttocks to provide gross amounts of support, suppression and DPS anyway_

If the tech is on any class you don't trade with it and the Incin is no exception. It requires a tech to even have a corner game so a team can use this to their advantage. If you know the tech is on the Incin then simply switch targets or fronts. Hitting the opponent that is constantly healing is foolish regardless of who is being healed.

The Brawler is one of the best mechs in the game for trading period. It is a C-class and it has 800 health and it has a whole lotta burst. It can dish out enough to put down anything before it hits 300 health. A good brawler will let you hit them a bit because when they hit you in the trade they win the trade because they start out with far more health then a lower class its just simple math. Go even and you win. The Incin cannot go even without hitting twice so it has no corner game without a tech healing it to mitigate the trade that is the difference between it and other C-classes its a simple ratio based on damage out for damage in.

The Brawler can't do much if the Incinerator is in a position to start a DPS race. The Brawler has 50 more armor, and can do a burst of 233, continuing with 144 DPS.

An Incinerator is capable of a burst of 80 and continue with a DPS of 210.

Granted, they would match eachother after about 3 seconds (both would have 74 armor left) due to Brawler's initial burst and armor advantage, which is probably why the Brawler not being a bad matchup against the Incinerator in its own territory. The match could end up either way. This does not take techs or Saare's heating effect into account (which would then heavily lopside the matchup for the Incinerator), but as you said it's not a bad. If a Brawler can keep up the corner game to an even decent degree, the Brawler can win. If the Incinerator catches the Brawler in a few fireballs and can force a DPS race, then it's Incinerator's triumph. This is Flak Brawler's forté, and its specialization, though. The Incinerator can still be a beast at range while providing support and suppression, while matching the CQC king in a DPS race.

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It has the highest DPS, but to trade evenly with a TOW user it has to hit 2 saare shots directly meaning that you gotta nut up or shut up when you engage there is no super effective in between (also not to mention how slow the saare shots are so easy to dodge at range).

Actually to trade evenly to a direct hit TOW, a SAARE user has to miss the target twice only by 10.0625 meters to deal exactly 125 damage. Or you can hit one directly and miss another one by a smidgen less than 14 meters.

I have been calling for splash reduction on the saare since it was released, but you still have to hit the enemy twice to count for 1 TOW hit and the TOW user could just remote det around a corner and never even look at the Incin. Point being that the Incin still has no real corner game against a good player.

Couldn't the Incinerator just spam the ground with the fireballs in that situation_ Detonation or no detonation, 14m > 12m. You don't have to be looking at the enemy either to do damage. As for their minimum damages, SAARE's 40 is not that far away off from TOW's 52.785. And if you hit the enemy with the SAARE with the same accuracy as the TOW user hitting at the 12m edge, you get 51.43 damage shots.

But I get you, that detonation is quite the beast and can't be compared. It makes hitting light years easier and safer than direct hit/ground splash.


Most projectiles are easy to dodge at range. The only exception to this is the Heat Cannon due to its speed and big splash. SAARE's saving grace is that you can spam it more often than enemies can dodge.

Good players only need to dodge once to get to cover. If you are standing out in the open against a high DPS anything you are gonna get put down hard. The fact that the saare shoots so quickly is the only reason it is viable. If it shot slower it would be rather useless with the current damage values.

I wouldn't mind it being toned down. It's supposed to be a support mech. Why can't it just play around the heating factor, does it need to be the fire magic druid cannon it is_

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Not to mention that whenever the mech stops to heal (using papa the only one worth using) it cannot fire for ~3 seconds. That may not sound bad, but think about all the times you stop and heal around corners before your enemy comes and you will realize that it is huge.

Then don't repair near the enemy lines. Or let the tech heal you up.

The further away from the enemy you are the less help you are to your team. This is a huge weakness and not one to be taken so lightly. It is telling to me that you find this to be no problem as it suggests that you don't have much experience using the Incin at a high level. This is probably the biggest weakness the mech has and if the tech has to constantly heal the Incin whenever they back up that is pushing potential lost.

You are less useful dead. Compared to other C-class mechs, an Incinerator can afford to get in a slightly better location to repair OR just let the tech heal you up and drop a repair orb. It's not necessary to repair right at the enemy gates and intentionally let the enemy get you caught pants down.

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The Incin is a mech that requires the user to make far fewer mistakes than other mechs or else they will be punished hard. The tech helps mitigate this and so does team play, but players are so busy cowering behind their team they often don't see how fragile the mech really is.

How exactly is the SAARE launcher punishing with its less than dodge cooldown reload time, huge AoE, comparatively longer radius until falloff_ The entire weapon screams forgiveness. It's a Corsair KLA grenade mode on crack.

The saare launcher_ I said the Incin as a whole is punishing not the saare launcher. The saare launcher is the saving grace of the mech it is what makes all the other problems worthwhile. The constant radar presence, low fuel tank, lost damage due to spin up on both self healing and EMP's.

Shooting causes all mechs to show on radar. Not just Incinerator. A Grenadier spamming grenades will also show on the map. Corner game mechs shooting their secondary behind the corner every few seconds also show up on the map. The fuel tank is enough for a 270 meter long boost, how much more do you need_ Other mechs also lose damage when they repair and get EMP'd.

750 armor, not needing to cool down like other mechs, having a passive ability to make your team be able to spam their weapons at leisure, CQC-midrange domination, fast speed, hitscan + splash all make this quite a forgiving mech in my opinion. At least more forgiving than most other mechs. Certainly not the easiest mech but not the hardest either. Especially when you have a tech behind you which is the point of almost all the discussions about the Incinerator.



Is PAPA punishing_ Only if you let yourself overheat. How often that happens_ How often does one trip down and break a nose when strolling on the sidewalk_

Papa is punishing to the extent that it is useless at even somewhat medium range and has a really long spin up time that resets whenever you are sneezed on by an EMP or the "C" button. Again you isolated one of the better aspects of the Incin and made it seem like I was singling this out to be a punishing aspect of the mech. I am talking about the mech as a whole and you are pointing to one thing and saying the whole thing is easy. You cannot just reduce the scope of the argument and call it the whole that is short sighted and frankly quite rude.

70 meter falloff start, decent spread and low damage loss per distance unit says no.
I apologize if I seemed rude, but saying things like that just to make things seem more complicated than they really are is not a way to convince me. Often it's player issue when it comes to these things, but the C-class in general has not been an unforgiving class since the speed buffs to them, turn rate cap increase and huge armor disparency between the classes. Why does a C-class mech need to be at the same time magic buff support, DPS, tank, jet plane, CQC, debuff wizard_ It's a slightly harder to use mech in that kind of environment but it makes the game more dull. It makes the matches look dull. It's a dull concept to have a Mary Sue mech that has it all built in. The weapons are different but not super hard to use. You make a mistake, you don't die. You get to try again and again and again because of the huge armor pool, fast speed, etc. and so do your teammates.

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Land an EMP on it and you have not just the EMP time to kill it, but the extra ~3 seconds it takes for it to spin up and fire again. The Incin has more weaknesses then any other mech I have used (which is every singe one in the game) and claiming that it alone puts down aggression is ridiculous. People put down their own aggression when they give up trying to push and decide to sit back or think that the game is over because they don't have the lead.

There. An EMP does make an Incinerator more frustrated than other mechs given the situation. Thankfully the Incinerator has the ability to boost away at a speed of 30.08 meters per second and the armor to absorb more attacks than a Vanguard doing the same. Either way, an EMP counters C-classes like no other, if you can get close enough to hit it reliably.

You forget to mention that it can only boost away at that speed for almost less then half the time of the Vanguard. So while its useful to run away for short distances it is not gonna help you when chased and you cannot even fire back especially if you had been boosting before you got hit which most people do since boosting is part of fighting in Hawken.

An Incinerator can boost for 9 seconds for a 270 meter distance. A Vanguard boosts about the same duration and distance. Tell me where you are getting these 4 seconds from_ I thought you were always going to be 1 dodge away from cover and then able to zip away_




Are you honestly saying an Incinerator has more weaknesses than say, an EOC Rocketeer_

Hellfire MIssiles are so easy to dodge/mitigate at a distance and up close that the Rocketeer and the Bruiser are weaker then the Incin, but as far as inherent weaknesses of the mech itself the Incinerator trumps the "EOC Rocketeer" because the only barrier on that mech to its proper use other then hellfire sillyness is the skill to use the EOC and maintain good positioning with the rocketeer. The "EOC Rocketeer" has nothing to micromanage, a plentiful fuel tank and an autoaim secondary to boot. Its biggest weakness is letting someone in close, but that is minor when compared to something like constant radar presence, really small fuel tank, and no corner game potential plus the need to micromanage firing rates based on heat generation of yourself, friendlies and enemies.

An EOC rocketeer has to manage mines, which are on a timer and have a good balance between the HF suppression and EOC puck spam to provide suppression to make enemy movement more predictable. It requires a really good timing if you want to guarantee a shot from either the HF or a full hexa of pucks. Almost every mech has something they can micro, not just Incinerator. Even then the micro in this game is NOTHING compared to other games.
How is letting someone close a minor thing when it's easy to get close to an EOC rocketeer without taking much damage unless the EOC Rocketeer is doing everything perfectly.
The Incinerator having no corner potential is simply not true due to having a 14m splash weapon in the first place. It might not be as good as a GL or TOW, but to say it has no potential is just false.

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Despite all of those reasons not to be aggressive Omni (Uni, Barbie Dream Corvettes) were extremely aggressive against the same or similar line ups with Incinerators. How is it possible that a team is able to be so aggressive when a single mech/mech combo on the enemy team is able to beat back the entire team with just a few shots_ Apparently we were so why can't you or anyone else be just as aggressive_

The brawler is particularly weak to the Incinerators balls of fire that cause heat because the Brawler has a really low heat allowance. Personally I feel the Incin's ability to increase peoples heat with ballz of fire should be at the very least toned down if not removed. That being said it is not so incredible as to stop aggression from entire teams, that has not been the case throughout the entire league for our team even when we were not using an Incin and there were plenty of games we saw streamed that did not have this problem even though one or more of the teams was using an Incin.


tl;dr_ The Incin is not the root cause for a lack of aggression teams lacking coordination and confidence cause their own aggression problems. Omni never had a problem being aggressive no matter the mech line up including against Incin tech combo's.

Kudos to people who could work around the combo, but it still doesn't mean the mech is fine or that it's not a part of the lack of aggression part. I believe the root for the lack of aggression goes deeper into the game's mechanics and indeed, how confident one is to be aggressive, but a mech like the Incinerator does not certainly help it.

My point was simply that the Incinerator is not the root cause of people playing defensively/passively and once you start banning mechs for reasons put before you then you have to start applying the same logic to other mechs in a serious way. If we ban the Incin for that reason then we should also ban the Brawler, the Tech, the SS, and the Gren because they all do the same thing in different ways.

The Incinerator has actual good reasons to be banned. It's absurdly strong in the areas it excels in and its weak points are patchable up with either items, internals, a technician. The situation it's bad in is mitigated by infinite amounts of spam in maps whose alternative routes take far too long to traverse in stealth.

But who am I to say.
I've got a great distaste to the Incinerator, and so do many others. It might not be the absolute best in the really uppest tiers of play where Incinerators magically lose half of their fuel, or time-space continuum suddenly warps into 4.43 second time being almost nothing while 3 second time that can be reduced to a mere 1 second is an eternity.

[shosca]

I think the TPG should stick to siege on bunker for the next season.

/runs

[Ker4u]

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<sub><sup>In my experience in the league a well coordinated offensive push on any map that was playable during the official league matches (not uptown) was not only possible, but just as successful as defending. Often defending teams take positions that are strong, but have weaknesses if exploited properly. A great example of this is on Origin. There are 3 places on Origin most teams try to hold up and defend that being the two platform areas that are flat and the middle AA. The two platform areas seem really great until you realize that their is no cover once the enemy team evens the height advantage by taking one or both of the sides of the platform. The AA is rather difficult to hold because despite having decent cover it is too small for a full team of 6 to hold up without getting destroyed by splash from properly set up teams.

The problem is not that teams of equal skill were advantaged by defending its that teams of equal skill did not practice the proper way to be aggressive since pretty much everyone tries to take the easy way out and defend in Hawken. Its a winning pub strategy and its the strategy ingrained in most players since they have started playing Hawken. How often in a pub do you see a coordinated push_ Almost never because of the uncoordinated play inherent in the system of public play which gives defense an advantage in pubs. Its a lot easier to respond to players in trouble if they are right next to you as opposed to across the map especially when they are not telling you what is happening on their end.</sup></sub>

i''d say all 3 of these places are not that great for defence  (especially if you just stack all 6 people on top like i saw in few tpg  vids), and just wait for enemies to surround you and wear down  with spam/ emp/ sniper fire/ incin/ revgls.
It all comes down to hawken's game mechanics (dodge, radar, splash, scanner, boost delay) and if defending  team takes good positions, focus fires targets, and backs off at right time,  it's  pretty much impossible to catch them off guard. Attacking side need to put in much more preparation, time on flanks and items use  to make it even.
I bet if there would be  10000000$ final game,   team that  got 1-0 ahead  would just start a +back marathon

But this example doesn't matter, real high level games are not possible in hawken yet, even current best players are far from  12h per day playing koreans (in a world where hawken would become the next league of legends)
just watch this attack, semifinals usa finest @ 3.35, it's neither coordinated or  well executed, 3 people are not doing anything while brawker attacks, and  it still works http://www.twitch.tv...nicus/c/4783429

Edited by Ker4u, August 11 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[Leonhardt]

Kopra, on August 11 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

But who am I to say.
I've got a great distaste to the Incinerator, and so do many others. It might not be the absolute best in the really uppest tiers of play where Incinerators magically lose half of their fuel, or time-space continuum suddenly warps into 4.43 second time being almost nothing while 3 second time that can be reduced to a mere 1 second is an eternity.

The difference between the numbers you provide and the actual application are sorely apparent to anyone who has actually sat down and put not only time into using the mech in the league, but also playing other mechs extensively in the same setting. It is clear that yourself and others have a "distaste" for the Incinerator that colors your perception of its existence in the game which makes it rather futile for me to continue writing anything of significance here in reply as that would not only be a wasted effort it would probably also just put me in a bad mood as I really have a "distaste" for people talking about things with stuff they learned from a "book" and asserting their word as if they have actual experience putting it to use a distinction that is not lost on me and is clearly evident throughout your replies.

I will be the first one to admit that I do not use "tried and true" numbers in my posts, but the point being that the "tried and true" numbers misrepresent the actual application of the mechs in the game. You are probably thinking "how could the correct numbers at all misrepresent the application of the very stats being put to use_" well the simple answer is that the stats are the basis for the mech and the player works around them. When people discuss these stats from an "objective" point of view they often end up coloring them in a light that isn't the actual usage of the stat which is the main reason why game developers such as ADH actually debate whether or not to give out the actual numbers in the stats for mechs.

Also don't think that my own decision about the Incinerator being banned or not being banned is all that colored by personal preference. To be completely honest I would much prefer to play another mech in competitive play and if it were banned I would be just as happy if not more so to play another mech or role. It gets tiring to play the same thing every time especially when its a tedious task of constant micro management with limitations in areas I rather enjoy advantages in use on other mechs. My reason for not wanting the Incinerator banned is purely logic based as the banning of it for the reasons laid before me "it stifles aggressive play" is lacking in my actual experience in the league and if applied to many other mechs the same logic would dictate their ban from the league.

You cannot pick and choose where you apply your criterion for banning mechs that is a road to folly. You have to judge all mechs by the same standard of logic otherwise you end up with a banning process that is arbitrary and filled with gut reaction.