74 replies to this topic

[coldform]

I like the concept of combined health after two matches - I know that this opinion is a little bias due to the fact that this is why cannon fodder won against the BLG rats, and the last match of the round was the only one that we won out of the entire set.

 

also, the timing between changes in the objective focus became more exaggerated,  And, IMO, subtle lapses in communication can mean the difference between winning or losing a match.

 

I also willing to bet that if two teams had the same skill level and precise coordination, a siege match could turn into a knockdown dragout fight in the mud,  making for a much sweeter taste of victory, and a more enjoyable competitive experience.

[SOD_CyberTormentor]

My friends, I had the opportunity to participate for the first time the Cup. As expected, I died too and might not have been able to help my team as much, but enjoyed it enough, it is a privilege to be part of it with the community, seriously ...

 

One of the things that bothered me most was not really the ping as you can imagine, that no one can change, unfortunately. Choose my part so I can not complain though because some players with relatively high pings too. But what bothered me most were the emps not understand this as whining, do not care about dying, just like good fights and the EMP unfortunately strip it of us, ok can be part of the strategy, it is a available item because do not use it? I believe because it is very unfair. It's annoying and takes away the chances of a good match between the teams. It's how you promote a duel and give one player a sword and the other a gun... The comparison seems rude, but that's what it looks like.

 

Still I wanted to thank everyone for the opportunity, especially the team that gave my participation in this Cup, Merl, crockrocket, coldform, bkcat, x9x8x7x e ArchMech. The games were very good

[Elite_is_salty]

EMP is not an overpowered item, and it may be a little dumb to ask for a ban for it. But I will not be bothered to be called dumb to ask for banning/limiting it because it can be turned into an overpowered/annoying/fun ruining strategy.

 

 

Pretty much because we're looking for lost HAWKEN fun more than trying to win. Not that there's a big prize more than the fun and challenge of the matches.

 

Just my point, don't know about yours.

[Xacius]

 

Leave the psychology to me, guys.  Just worry about putting forth (relevant) arguments and opinions re: Siege.

[Amidatelion]

 

WHY DOES THIS EVEN EXIST

[PoopSlinger]

I didn't get to play, but I watched some of a few games.  It was more entertaining to watch than MA.

[Elite_is_salty]

I didn't get to play, but I watched some of a few games.  It was more entertaining to watch than MA.

 

No doubt.

[Hyginos]

Upon reviewing footage and conducting further analysis on the data gathered within the cup, I conclude that I have insufficient data to predict the nature of siege in TPG play. I think the teams that played in the cup could still go a long way in figuring out how to play siege.

 

With this in mind, I think I would vote for a siege season if only because I want to see how it goes.

 

 

I didn't get to play, but I watched some of a few games.  It was more entertaining to watch than MA.

 

Probably because the fight isn't spread across three points. A proper spectator mode (capnjosh plz) might change how these games look to an observer.

[eth0]

Can we talk about class composition? Most teams, iirc, ran 3 fatties. I think 2A/2B/2C limitations would work well. Has this been considered before?

It should make taking the AA easier, especially when going against a team that uses a tech to support their fat. This is also considering that 2 hellfires or 2 sabots is allowed.

It won't make the games any shorter necessarily but it will make taking the AA from a team holding it easier. Imho, an even class distribution is crucial to a fun, if not more balanced, game. It is not fun going up against 3 Cs and a tech inside an AA.

 

 

Probably because the fight isn't spread across three points. A proper spectator mode (capnjosh plz) might change how these games look to an observer.

 

On a 24 man siege server, you could have a cams EVERYWHERE.

Edited by eth0, 01 June 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[_incitatus]

Can we talk about class composition? Most teams, iirc, ran 3 fatties. I think 2A/2B/2C limitations would work well. Has this been considered before?

 

 

I really like this idea.

[Amidatelion]

I really like this idea.

 

Seconding.

[Dew]

It used to be 2A/2B/2C before at one point. If you're trying to limit C-classes I'd suggest just limiting Cs to 2 and other classes to 3. That way if a team wants they can still run tech and 2 other As (not that I know many teams that would want to do this).

[Hyginos]

I think the most important takeaway from this cup is that TANG hasn't yet been officially given the title on the TPG site, therefore Nept is unfit for the admin position and should be impeached promptly.

[Nept]

Can we talk about class composition? Most teams, iirc, ran 3 fatties. I think 2A/2B/2C limitations would work well. Has this been considered before?

 

Not trying to be rude, but not going to happen.  Players have raised this idea in the past, and it's been shot down because I dislike forcing teams into a particular composition (which 2A/2B/2C very much does).

[Elite_is_salty]

Players have raised this idea in the past

 

Well, that's the PAST. If we're looking into making siege a mode that will not make people unhappy, then we must not try to exclude the option of adding/rethinking a previously agreed on rule for the sake of improving the experience. I'm all for 2 C's only.

[Nept]

I'm not implementing more restrictions than are absolutely necessary.  Too often, players - in any competitive league - assume something's overpowered or unbeatable before making any efforts to overcome it.  We saw that happen with EMPs over the weekend, for example.

 

It is extremely unlikely that TPG will further restrict classes.  I am simply letting posters know so that they might focus on something more productive - like the topic at hand, for example.

[TheButtSatisfier]

I'm probably saying the same things others have said, but here are my observations:

• I feel like there were more "traps" in siege than in other match modes (TDM and MA). I would get 250 EU and halfway back to the dropoff I'd get ganked by two players. I don't feel like there's as much incentive to coordinate traps in other modes since there isn't EU to plunder.
• On that same note: it seemed like siege mode is where a good predator player can really shine. It's exciting to run back 250 EU when you haven't seen the enemy predator in a while. A pred can also mine the hell out of the AA.
• Siege matches can take a long time. I enjoyed the matches, but we were on the winning side all but one time. If we were thoroughly losing then I can imagine it not being as fun.
• There's a lot of potential for strategy in siege, especially given the different phases of play. You can have a strategy for running EU, another for intercepting EU from the other team, and then another one for securing AA. That said, there's a lot of time where you aren't fighting. It's not as fast-paced as other modes.
• Siege tends to reduce the active areas of a map. In TDM the fight rotates around the map, but in siege you are primarily fighting in one or two areas depending on the phase. When teams get experienced and coordinated enough I feel like the combat will become a bit one-dimensional; each team will know precisely what to do to hold or rush the AA in a given map, and there won't be much wiggle-room for creativity. I worry that siege combat will get stale fast.
• Sustain is important in siege, especially when you are attempting to displace a team from AA. I don't think there's as much opportunity to use burst in that common scenario.
• In missile assault the scores are usually closer than in siege. Objectively I don't think this matters much - a win is a win, no matter what the difference in scores is. However, in siege (1) the game can take a lot longer, and (2) the differences in scores can be much wider. I imagine this is more demoralizing to the losing team than a loss in MA or TDM. Again, objectively this doesn't matter, but I'd prefer that we try to make these tournaments as fun for as many participants as possible while still keeping it competitive. If most of the losses take a long time, and the spread in scores is generally wide, then how are we enriching the competitive scene and encouraging others to join it?

 

Would I play siege competitively again? Sure, I'll play any Hawken mode competitively. I think other modes might be more fun for all teams involved though. 

Edited by TheButtSatisfier, 01 June 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[crockrocket]

False.

 

Speak your piece.

Okay, fine. I think there are some interesting strategic considerations that could make siege a dynamic game mode for competitive play. When do you launch, when do you hold back from launching, when do you give up taking aa and shoot ship, when do you keep everyone on aa, when do you let someone get eu instead of going aa, etc. It isn't quite so cut and dry as "tdm on a smaller point".

[ThirdEyE]

I think the most important takeaway from this cup is that TANG hasn't yet been officially given the title on the TPG site, therefore Nept is unfit for the admin position and should be impeached promptly.

Great finals matches!  Oh wait...

 

Here's my feedback after participating in 4 games as a sub yesterday.

 

PROS

• Lots of kills!  This won't be a pro in more uneven matches though, as the nature of siege means the stronger team will always be together to continually kill the weaker team on their inevitable push to the AA
• No death orbs.  This helped cut down on the orblording to some extent, but wasn't nearly enough of a nerf to orblording
• King of the hill type of gamemode, which I personally like regardless of the cons.

 

CONS

• Games are long.  Not 100% sure but I think all 4 games went past 30 minutes, with the longest being close to 40 minutes.  I know with more coordinated and practiced teams this length will only increase (especially in even matches) as teams get more accustomed to focusing down ship turrets and focus firing ships faster.  We are going to test how many ships you can effectively shoot down from base tomorrow night!
• Few maps, and most are bad.  Assuming that Bazaar and Bunker aren't in rotation (as they shouldn't be), that only leaves Frontline, Origin, Last Eco, and Wreckage.  Origin is awful with how congested the AA is, Eco has no cover and is basically a shooting gallery, Frontline has very few routes to the AA and highway snipers are still rough to deal with, Wreckage is alright but kinda similar problems as Frontline AA.
• Poor EU node placements.  Origin and Frontline are split during EU collection phase, which means you usually have to pick a side and hold it. Last Eco's nodes are so close together they may as well be a single node.  Wreckage is alright.
• EU falling from destroyed ships is highly inconsistent.  Often this falls outside or on top of the map so you can't reach it, which can really screw a team over if they get unlucky with how much EU they can actually collect from the ship.
• Few AA-taking tactical options.  If the other team has the AA, that usually means your team just lost a fight so now you need to wait for everyone to respawn and push AA together, since your chances of retaking a static point at a numbers disadvantage is very slim in Hawken.
• Some items stand out as nearly mandatory, namely EMP and Repair Charge.  EMP can easily make or break a push for AA, which happened many times in the games I played.  Repair Charge increases your staying power by a huge margin due to the lack of death orbs.
• Very "boom and bust" pacing.  For every bit of action there's twice as much downtime.  Whether you win or lose a fight for the AA, you have to wait extra time to respawn, like I mentioned earlier you need to wait for your/their entire team to respawn before the next push comes usually, and EU collection and delivery is pretty much just sitting in a spot while trying to avoid death.
• Fat and spam rule.  Mechs with the most health and AOE damage are king, which leaves team composition variety lackluster.  Incin, Gren, Brawler are bound to be the core of most teams, and with a Tech on them trying to fight into that will get old pretty quick.
• Lots of people seem very uninterested or opposed to Siege, which will most likely result in not many teams joining the league.  I can pretty much guarantee we wouldn't field a team for a whole siege season.

 

Well that about sums it up I think.  Feel free to comment or debate these points and add anything I missed!

[Elite_is_salty]

I'm really not quite sure if everyone's up for ANOTHER season of MA. The boredom kills. KILLS.

 

If it'll be TDM somehow, I swear to god I'll be laughing my heart out seeing those people talking big game getting their asses hammered and ending up swallowing their words ...

[eth0]

If you're trying to limit C-classes I'd suggest just limiting Cs to 2 and other classes to 3. That way if a team wants they can still run tech and 2 other As (not that I know many teams that would want to do this).

 

It's about limiting any kind of class spam, health or speed. I can't imagine why the technician should get an exception, in this case.

 

Not trying to be rude, but not going to happen.  Players have raised this idea in the past, and it's been shot down because I dislike forcing teams into a particular composition (which 2A/2B/2C very much does).

 

Why do you dislike forcing teams into this particular composition? I would understand not forcing them into a 3As or 3Cs, but that's what's already happening. SG? Keep it heavy. MA? Keep it fast. TDM? Might have something here, but if all else fails bring more orbs and a tech.

 

Hawken is a game where these restrictions make interesting choices like limiting yourself with heat, fuel. If you only have 2 A slots, you better make damn good use of that tech because there are only 2 Cs available to tank. Invariably, there will be incin+tech, but that's another can of worms.
With any composition available? Sure, there is more flexibility in exploiting class advantages. That doesn't sound like fun but I guess people call it competitive.

To make interesting use of class advantage, restrict spamming it and pilots will be forced to use it more effectively.

 

I'm not implementing more restrictions than are absolutely necessary.  Too often, players - in any competitive league - assume something's overpowered or unbeatable before making any efforts to overcome it.  We saw that happen with EMPs over the weekend, for example.

 

It is extremely unlikely that TPG will further restrict classes.  I am simply letting posters know so that they might focus on something more productive - like the topic at hand, for example.

 

You make it sound like Hawken doesn't need any fixing. Whatever happnend with EMPs was horrendous. They happened, and then even more happened in the games following. I think all of those games would have been more fun without them. Without the orb meta the other modes have, EMPs appear to be the most valuable item in siege.

 

I honestly think that even A/B/C distribution would be a positive change for competitive play, especially for siege. If I'm straying too far from the topic somehow, I apologize. I'm not the Hawkenest, but those are my thoughts.

[Nept]

 

Why do you dislike forcing teams into this particular composition? I would understand not forcing them into a 3As or 3Cs, but that's what's already happening. SG? Keep it heavy. MA? Keep it fast. TDM? Might have something here, but if all else fails bring more orbs and a tech.

 

There are far more competitively-viable compositions than most teams assume.  I'm not going to limit those options because people believe that their only recourse is 3 heavies in Siege, fast mechs in MA, and a tech in TDM. 

 

 

You make it sound like Hawken doesn't need any fixing. Whatever happnend with EMPs was horrendous. They happened, and then even more happened in the games following. I think all of those games would have been more fun without them. Without the orb meta the other modes have, EMPs appear to be the most valuable item in siege.

I had my eye on most of the weekend's matches.  What happened with the EMPs happened because the teams utilized heavy compositions alongside poor positioning.  There are ways around that apart from item and mech restrictions - ways that require some thought and some practice.

 

*Edited with my griping

 

 OmniNept: you think the reason you're finding emp's overpowered MIGHT be related to the fact that you're plunking 3 fatties down on a tiny point?
11:43 AM - Crafty: Whoa
11:44 AM - OmniNept: MIND EXPLOSION

 

The sarcasm's not directed at you in particular, eth0, but I have been fielding complaints about EMPs a few times too many this weekend.  Simply put, there are ways around them.
 

Edited by Nept, 01 June 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[eth0]

...

 

Fair enough. Either way, I'd play more Siege even if it was only weekend cups with a few teams.

[LEmental]

I'm not implementing more restrictions than are absolutely necessary.  Too often, players - in any competitive league - assume something's overpowered or unbeatable before making any efforts to overcome it.  We saw that happen with EMPs over the weekend, for example.

 

It is extremely unlikely that TPG will further restrict classes.  I am simply letting posters know so that they might focus on something more productive - like the topic at hand, for example.

I think we should go the other way.  I don't see any reason to restrict A's and B's.  I vote for keeping the 3 C's but not restricting A's and B's

 

I would even consider removing the 3C's cap, but I don't think that would be popular.

 

I was happy to see the double sabot and double hellfire restriction get removed.  Sometimes we make mistakes =P

 

Spoiler

I just really want to run a team with SS, Raider, Assault and Predator XD

Edited by LEmental, 02 June 2015 - 02:49 AM.

[Interrobang87]

I know Counterlogic and I have the games our respective teams played over the weekend highlighted on our twitch streams if anyone wants to use specific situations to back up their thoughts (I also have them on my YouTube channel)

-spot reserved for competitive siege thought, don't have time atm

[CraftyDus]

 I was happy to see the double sabot and double hellfire restriction get removed.  Sometimes we make mistakes =P

 

Remember when we almost banned technicians at the very beginning?! Glad you spoke up!

[Hyginos]

With all this science going on recently I kinda want to try a weekend cup in which there are just flat out no restrictions just to see what people will cook up.

[CounterlogicMan]

Guys GUYs GUYS and LE!!!! 

 

EMPs

 

....bounce off blockades. If you place Blockades in the right spots you can stop a push/emp spam in its tracks, if not at least delay it. Also C classes are emp magnets. Don't be surprised if when your incin+tech brawler and vanguard all clump up they get hit by 6 emps.

 

 

Basically what I am getting at is that emps aren't the end all be all strat of siege.

 

No team has gone beyond the surface of what is tactically possible in siege. Especially if we start talking about lifting restrictions. 

 

Watched all of my footage as well as intero's footage, he had some filthy mlg mt.dew tow shots , and it is clear that the siege meta is very young and undeveloped. That being said....siege still has problems. Some really questionable maps in the pool. Some EU trees need moved. All the EU from the Battleships dying need to fall into mech pathable positions on the map. Also, and this will need some verification, I suspect some ships fly slightly altered paths from their counterparts causing them to take longer to get to the base *balance issue*.

 

I still favor siege as being included in TPG Season 3. 

 

Will edit this with some more thoughts later.

[_incitatus]

With all this science going on recently I kinda want to try a weekend cup in which there are just flat out no restrictions just to see what people will cook up.

This could be fun and interesting.

[eth0]

Guys GUYs GUYS and LE!!!! 

 

EMPs

 

....bounce off blockades.

 

[comic_sans]

It took me a few hours to get over my butthurt about EMPs and I didn't remember I posted here til now.  They're fine, I just need to EMP harder/get EMP'd less.  My butthurt was compounded by being in an incin, a mech which is functionally EMP'd every time it repairs as well to boot.

Edited by &THC& comic_sans, 02 June 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[Amidatelion]

Guys GUYs GUYS and LE!!!! 

 

 

fuzzy bunnyng lost it

 

The Blockades thing might work on Origin, but for other maps I don't think the counter is so cut and dry. Furthermore, the ability of EMPs to reach straight through walls is incredibly irritating.

[coldform]

I skrubbed thru most matches as a tech, and the EMP spam seemed pretty effective against the fat-tech combo.

[crockrocket]

I skrubbed thru most matches as a tech, and the EMP spam seemed pretty effective against the fat-tech combo.

One reason why going more hands free on restrictions is an interesting concept

[LoC_TR]

I think siege would be a pain in the ass to pull off this season, we'd to have at least 2 hours set aside probably 3 hours so we teams have time to set up. People just have so many obligations and from what I've learned in the past two seasons, it's really difficult with this small population of players over multiple time zones to get on at the same time and be able to stay for the entirety. At least with MA or TDM we could knock it out in under an hour if we really needed to. There is probably much more strategy that could go into siege and as each team goes, more practice too. Not that I mind playing more, but it may be that for some of the weaker teams this will never come to fruition, Its one thing to practice interesting strategies and another to apply them. I think Siege offers a lot of potential but it could be really strenuous on the entire league due to time restrictions and the complexity of the mode. Too much time required.

 

On the other hand.. TDM. Vanguard participated in a whole season of it, it was really frustrating for us to say the least. The current meta and the previous one were not all that different, only the pace seemed to be much slower. The game mode is definitely the most difficult of the three because it requires you to react quickly as a team, every move and misstep is ridiculously important, this also encourages stagnant defensive play since no one wants to put themselves into a bad position. If the meta were different and encouraged more aggressive strategies maybe it wouldn't be such a bore, it's just really not that interesting to watch an entire team camp. There is no incentive not to orblord/tech/fat/camp.

 

 

MA to me is not the best gametype but you do get some of both worlds and there can be some really interesting fights across the entire map. It's my choice but only because it the lesser of two weezles. 

Edited by LoC_TR, 02 June 2015 - 06:42 PM.