63 replies to this topic

[capnjosh]

Last week we made 3 adjustments to matchmaking:

 

1. Tighten tolerable MMR limits for manually joining matches in the Server Browser (also tolerances used by MatchMaker).

  - Decreased from 500 to 425

2. Increased the time the MatchMaker takes to expand the MMR tolerances when you're in the MatchMaker queue.

  - It can take up to 2 minutes to get a match if your MMR is well outside any current server's MMR

  - Yes, by entering the MatchMaker queue you *will* get a match, even if you can't manually join a server via the Server Browser.  Take it as a compliment - you're amazing at this game ;)

3. Private servers now ignore MMR and are no longer included in MatchMaking

  - You will always be able to join a private server if it's public or you have the password

  - Users in the MatchMaker queue will not be put into matches on private servers

 

 

Here are the charts showing what happened:

 

Avg MMR spread on teams (top line is winning team, middle is losing team, bottom is deatchmatch):

 

How often does someone's manual Server Browser request get rejected because they are outside the fitness range of the server:

 

 

The first chart seems to indicate teams have tighter MMR spreads - approaching what they were before any changes to the matchmaking configs were attempted.  The second chart indicates an additional 15 users per day are now encountering at least one instance of being prevented from manually joining a server because their MMR is outside the server's tolerances.

 

 

What now?

 

I want to further tighten the MMR tolerances.  My goal is to protect matches in the 1200-1400 MMR range from predation by higher-MMR pilots ;)  I believe reducing it to 350 may be good enough.  Here's a chart that shows why.

 

This chart shows 2 things - avg kill spread on each team and the avg MMR of the highest-rated player on each team:

 

Note the 1800 MMR number.  1800 - 350 = 1450.  Something around 58% of all user-matches happen below 1450 MMR.  Reducing the limit by 75 MMR theoretically would protect an additional 15% of all user-matches from encountering significant MMR-based imbalance.

 

So, here are the things we will be changing, and we can all watch the outcome through the fun of refreshable reports:

 

1. Reduce MMR tolerances for Server Browser and MatchMaker from "<avg MMR of server> plus or minus 425" to "<avg MMR of server> plus or minus 350".

  - This *should* result in tighter MMR spreads and kill spreads, both within teams as well as between winning and losing teams.

  - This will likely result in more users getting rejected requests to manually join a server.  I really don't want this number to get too high.

  - Note that private servers now ignore MMR, so you should be able to readily join those any time.

 

2. Increase the time it takes the MatchMaker to guarantee a match for users with MMRs well outside of any any available server's MMR tolerances.  2.5 minutes, up from 2 minutes.

  - This should result in more appropriate servers being selected.

  - I want feedback on this one.  The risk is too much annoyance for our elite pilots.

 

 

I want to emphasize that I do not consider these changes to be the end-all.  Matchmaking in the wild is inherently an iterative process, and I'm trying to give a picture of what that's like.  These changes are not the best one could imagine - they do, however, represent what we *can* do right now.  When we start releasing new client and game server builds, we will be able to improve on things like midmatch balance, server browser filters, and getting more variables to be considered in the MatchMaker algorithm.  For right now, we tune the existing parameters and find out exactly what happens.

[ticklemyiguana]

I am hoping things like this work. I'm hoping all will be well if it doesn't. Still appreciating the clarity here. Muchos gracias.

[Nov8tr]

OK this appears to be a step in the right direction. I give credit when it is due. Not bad. Working better. We still have high level people who purposely browse the low groups in teams despite the many statements to the contrary. It is still happening. I can recognize some by their playstyle and some by the names they choose. Then there are the ones who admit it. I understand their dilemna. I have seen more people who are willing to help other people and that is good. I am happier now.

[Amidatelion]

It's a good start and I hope everyone takes away the most important thing. Clearly work is being done, but there will naturally be some experimentation, trial and error. And well...

 

 

Further adjustments, that is.

[Nept]

I'd say anything under five minutes is fine re: wait times for high-mmr players.  Some of us became accustomed to 10, 15, 20, or infinite wait times in the past.

[crockrocket]

I am again opposed to the decrease from 500 to 425 for the mmr lock, for reasons I have discussed before. Now that I'm around 1900 mmr it is much less of an issue for me personally, but I can imagine lower players having the same experience as myself basically up until my current mmr. 

 

EDIT: Also, in the first chart is the speard for the entire match, since team spread doesn't exist?

 

EDIT2: Maybe further limit the tolerance for matches below you but leave the ability for a player to join a match 500 mmr above them?

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 01 June 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

Is there any chance of removing mayhem servers from the matchmaker too? If I wouldn't get placed in one of those every time I queue, I'd be fine waiting five minutes or so for a game. 

[TheButtSatisfier]

Is there any chance of removing mayhem servers from the matchmaker too? If I wouldn't get placed in one of those every time I queue, I'd be fine waiting five minutes or so for a game. 

 

I'm not above begging for this.

[JackVandal]

I'm not above begging for this.

to use my usual bit, id eat someone for this. id eat several someones for this.

[capnjosh]

There is a growing set of evidence that there is an MMR threshold above which there exists a "different experience".  The population is much much smaller, and the level of skill is very high.  This would imply a different approach needs to be implemented.  I think a lot of people are of a similar opinion.

 

The idea of restricting MMR only in the negative direction could be pretty interesting.

 

I hear you, btw, on the desire to have the 24-slot mayhem servers not really a part of matchmaking.  Wednesday we'll make some adjustments there.

[Loglino]

The idea of restricting MMR only in the negative direction could be pretty interesting.

That way you can choose to get wrecked while being safe in terms of matchmaking placing high skill players in your match without your consent.

Edited by Loglino, 01 June 2015 - 08:33 PM.

[SS396]

There is a growing set of evidence that there is an MMR threshold above which there exists a "different experience".  The population is much much smaller, and the level of skill is very high.  This would imply a different approach needs to be implemented.  I think a lot of people are of a similar opinion.

 

Can you explain this "different experience"? Is it good, bad, indifferent? What leads you to believe this experience exists?





 

The idea of restricting MMR only in the negative direction could be pretty interesting.

 

Won't do any good, and heres 2 reasons why. Its too easy to just tank your own mmr and get down to levels where you don't belong, and the easiest of all is start a new smurf. Shrug.

Locks only keep the honest man honest.



Why are the stupid forums broken when it comes to quotes?

Edited by SS396, 01 June 2015 - 08:46 PM.

[brackets]

Just keep an eye on how much changing the fitness range affects the MMR spread on servers -- last time the MMR spread due to forced joins after the time limit defeated the purpose of reducing the fitness ranges in the first place.

[MomOw]

Is it complicated to make the queuing system send invite to join so that you could play other mode while waiting ? (and increase the waiting time to whatever is required)

Edited by MomOw, 01 June 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[Meraple]

The idea of restricting MMR only in the negative direction could be pretty interesting.

You mean everyone will be free to join servers with infinitely higher MMR than them?

 

I'm sorry if I interpreted it the wrong way, but god no.

It's already bad enough with 1-3 lower players in the only 2200 MMR server in the evening in EU.

If matches above 2200 would allow for everyone of over 2200 to join however, I'd be all for it.

 

 

That way you can choose to get wrecked while being safe in terms of matchmaking placing high skill players in your match without your consent.

This thread was made for a reason.

 

 

I could be paranoid here though, dunno..

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 01 June 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[crockrocket]

You mean everyone will be free to join servers with infinitely higher MMR than them?

 

I'm sorry if I interpreted it the wrong way, but god no.

It's already bad enough with 1-3 lower players in the only 2200 MMR server in the evening in EU.

If matches above 2200 would allow for everyone of over 2200 to join however, I'd be all for it.

I wouldn't say infinite, I'd say us 500 above or 300 below.

 

And, to clarify, what I"m suggesting is a compromise. I don't think mmr locking should exist in general. But rather than having both +/- reduced, I'd like to see that at least just go one way. 

[ArchMech]

lets take daves 2985(ish) mmr, and use the new 350 threshold to determine what the WORST possible match could be made using it, then compare that to what it would be 425 and 500 (for for simplicity's sake heres 500 lol)

 

so dave joins an empty server and is joined by sum1 -350 from his mmr 2635 taking the average down to 2810.5,

 

this trend continues as such (roughly) and dave & 2635 friend are joined by the following in this order

 

2460

 

2343

 

2256

 

2187

 

2128

 

2078

 

2034

 

1995

 

1960

 

1933

 

if this is the worst case of the average mmr dropping in a snowballed method its perfect (thats a full server with a lowest mmr @ 1900)

 

heres what it was with 500

 

2985

 

2485

 

2235

 

2068

 

1943

^^^^not good i just stopped there

 

425 wont be good enough if the above is any indication

Edited by ArchMech, 01 June 2015 - 11:23 PM.

[ArchMech]

yea i just did the math on 425 just for shits and giggles

2985

 

2560

 

2347

 

2205

 

2099

 

2014

 

1943

 

1882

 

1829

 

1782

 

and thats just 10/12

[Pastorius]

Private servers are no longer included in MatchMaking

Great job!

[ArchMech]

this is all assuming of course that a few factors DONT end up playing a part

 

auto balancer making poor life choices

 

player reservations coming and going causing 6v4+1player reserved slot then not actually joining or ghost reservations if thats a thing

 

party's getting roughly +100 average mmr for forming

 

volunteering mid game (combo with party joins, player reservations, pilot error issues, and/or other, for massive clusterfking)

(^^^^double edged sword can also be a GREAT re-balancer)

 

general hawken misfortune, feeding, raging, or other such pilot error related issues

 

unnatural forces working in the darkness

 

but at least we can be glad theres one factor that doesnt affect fuzzy bunny in hawken right? and thats

nobody can pay $60 for a mech thats better then anything you spent some time enjoying the game to get for free, so that you could go spend that $60 making it look like a homeless guy in boxers with hearts or kisses or whatever

best game ever

Edited by ArchMech, 02 June 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[crockrocket]

Removed because I'm confused 

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 02 June 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[?FTD? eXeon]

So limit the rest of the playerbase because one single player has this problem? Screw that. Also on an average day, 2k+ lobbies aren't even a given throughout the day. When they exist, even if it's only 2100 or 2200 avg, 2600+ should be able to join.

The problem isn't him getting in, its the skill level disparity of players becomes larger because the average keeps being skewed in one direction because lower and lower rated players join. A 1900 match could b e joined by someone whose only 1550, someone whose won like 10 games could play against people like dave. This is equally as problematic at the lower spectrum where the MMR is raised until we see 1900 rated players joining 1550 rated games with 1200 rated first game players or much worse.

 

Wish there was a way to lock server mmr after x players joined or something. This was a really annoying thing for me when I played, whether its getting stomped or having a fresh assault on a win streak get put into your game it's really unfortunate side effect of the way adhesive designed their matchmaking.

Edited by OnlyPersonWhoseHadThreeNames, 02 June 2015 - 12:00 AM.

[ArchMech]

like my posts plz

why? because i asked nicely

[crockrocket]

The problem isn't him getting in, its the skill level disparity of players becomes larger because the average keeps being skewed in one direction because lower and lower rated players join. A 1900 match could b e joined by someone whose only 1550, someone whose won like 10 games could play against people like dave. This is equally as problematic at the lower spectrum where the MMR is raised until we see 1900 rated players joining 1550 rated games with 1200 rated first game players or much worse.

 

Wish there was a way to lock server mmr after x players joined or something. This was a really annoying thing for me when I played, whether its getting stomped or having a fresh assault on a win streak get put into your game it's really unfortunate side effect of the way adhesive designed their matchmaking.

I agree that is also an issue, but if there's a match with my friends on it, I should be able to join! Again, less of an issue now that I'm 1900 mmr because that means even with the new limits I can (theoretically, previously cap rounded on basis of next lowest 50 mmr) join on 2325 avg servers. Which is fine.

But say my 1900 mmr friend just got me into the game? I'm at 1250 and my friend is just a tad bit above average. Which means my friend has probably joined a server close to their mmr. 1250 + 425 = 1675. Bleh

[ArchMech]

in this spoiler there is rage crock, view at you're own risk

Spoiler

wth crock why are you fighting this?!?!
http://hawken.heroku...ser/crockrocket
you are 1916 MMR
SMACK dab in the middle of an MMR war you have NO business chiming into ESPECIALLY QUOTING ME AND GOING AGAINST IT BECAUSE I USED DAVE AS A REFERENCE POINT OF THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO, YOU TRYING TO DEFEND THE "REST OF THE PLAYER BASE"? YOU'LL MAKE ME RAGE HARDER THEN XACIUS, DEW, ANY OF THEM, IM THAT KIND OF GUY THAT WILL GO ALL CAPS

 

> http://home.xshade.ca/users/publicmmr
> http://home.xshade.c...rs/leaderboard/
"2600+ mmr" consists of 20 players

[DerMax]

As Arch said, fixing the Auto Balancer is more important that tweaking the matchmaker. It is the Auto Balancer that makes matches lopsided and unfun.

[ArchMech]

So limit the rest of the playerbase because one single player has this problem? Screw that. Also on an average day, 2k+ lobbies aren't even a given throughout the day. When they exist, even if it's only 2100 or 2200 avg, 2600+ should be able to join.

no not because ONE SINGLE PLAYER has this problem

because the rest of the player base has a problem with that one player (to one extent or another)

and thats just one player from that "tier" of play, many of which are lurking

 

Something around 58% of all user-matches happen below 1450 MMR. 

 

 

what do you think that part of the player base thinks of the rest of the player base above the 1900 cutoff?

Edited by ArchMech, 02 June 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Meraple]

Personally I don't like it when 1900 players join the ONLY 2200 server in EU in evenings..

Hell, they can even join 2300 servers, which are even rarer - those appear a few times a week or so?

 

inb4 replies about fuzzy elitist:

There's only a few matches in my MMR range per day - the lowest-rated servers I can join through server browser are of 2218 MMR.

Joining servers with a <2100 average MMR isn't fun for me, and I doubt it's fun for the others there either.

 

 

It's not fun when a higher player gets in a lower tier match.

Is it fun when a lower player gets in a higher tier match?

No, it fuzzy bunny isn't.

Edited by (KDR) Meraple, 02 June 2015 - 01:44 AM.

[HHJFTRU]

I think this is an improvement, but again please make bootcamp servers that are restricted to pilot lvl and MMR.

I participated in too many matches in the last couple of days where the MMR spread was like 1100 - 2300.

Also, please change the MMR calculation in a way that pubstomping won't inflate MMR anymore. Or even does lower it.

And please make it impossible to join a server for groups whose average MMR is above by let's say 350 the server avg.  

[Anichkov3]

I want to give advice to capnjosh. Notes on the graphs in the future, the vertical line the date of change. So it will be much more clearly compare what it was before and after a particular date.

[M4st0d0n]

Thanks for the update. MMRs have been padded for years now, it may be time to do a soft reset and see how it goes instead of tweaking MM ad vitam. It wouldnt be so spread in the end of the spectrum if it wasnt the only endgame pseudo ranked mode for Hawken.

[CrimsonKaim]

Okey, the MM gets some work, but I would also consider the player rating, you know, I see 2500 MMR palyers failing in duels against 1800 MMR players. This is definately not a rating of individual skill and so the value of MMR is questionable, especially for balancing matches.

[crockrocket]

in this spoiler there is rage crock, view at you're own risk

Spoiler

wth crock why are you fighting this?!?!
http://hawken.heroku...ser/crockrocket
you are 1916 MMR
SMACK dab in the middle of an MMR war you have NO business chiming into ESPECIALLY QUOTING ME AND GOING AGAINST IT BECAUSE I USED DAVE AS A REFERENCE POINT OF THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO, YOU TRYING TO DEFEND THE "REST OF THE PLAYER BASE"? YOU'LL MAKE ME RAGE HARDER THEN XACIUS, DEW, ANY OF THEM, IM THAT KIND OF GUY THAT WILL GO ALL CAPS

 

> http://home.xshade.ca/users/publicmmr
> http://home.xshade.c...rs/leaderboard/
"2600+ mmr" consists of 20 players

I may have been reading everything wrong last night. I'll review and edit my comments if necessary. 

[coldform]

Thanks for the update. MMRs have been padded for years now, it may be time to do a soft reset and see how it goes instead of tweaking MM ad vitam. It wouldnt be so spread in the end of the spectrum if it wasnt the only endgame pseudo ranked mode for Hawken.

No. This would result in pure chaos for a small amount of time - as in brand new players fighting against multi-year vets with insane in-game skills, and no indicator to new players that it is happening, resulting in even less player retention.

Any amount of time where this is true is too long, IMO. Tweaking seems to be the only way to improve match quality with minimal impact on Potential NPR decrease.

[Hyginos]

 
Can you explain this "different experience"? Is it good, bad, indifferent? What leads you to believe this experience exists?
 

Won't do any good, and heres 2 reasons why. Its too easy to just tank your own mmr and get down to levels where you don't belong, and the easiest of all is start a new smurf. Shrug.

 

As for the first: game flow is definitely different in a server full of TPG/top level players. I prefer it myself, but obviously I'm biased and it's a subjective measurement.

 

As for the second: You may be right in that it won't stop smurfs, but making it easier to play up than play down certainly won't be a bad thing IMO.

[TheButtSatisfier]

Okey, the MM gets some work, but I would also consider the player rating, you know, I see 2500 MMR palyers failing in duels against 1800 MMR players. This is definately not a rating of individual skill and so the value of MMR is questionable, especially for balancing matches.

 

Though the chances are low, there's always a chance that a highly-ranked player is going to occasionally lose to a lower-ranked player in a duel. However, if a 1800 MMR player is consistently beating a 2500 player in duels then I'm pretty sure the 1800 account is a smurf.

[CrimsonKaim]

Though the chances are low, there's always a chance that a highly-ranked player is going to occasionally lose to a lower-ranked player in a duel. However, if a 1800 MMR player is consistently beating a 2500 player in duels then I'm pretty sure the 1800 account is a smurf.

 

The problems wit hMMR are (in my eyes) the following:

 

1. We do not know anything about how it works (no official statement ... or I am just blind)

2. It apparently is highly reliant on the score, not on KDR, Assists, Damage dealt, time spent in the room, silos captured, etc. ... this is only a guess, though.

 

 

But yes, I see people duelling (which is a reference to their individual skill) like sh*t against newbies. It is easy to play Assault and stay at your team and score points, which is why we have many many unskilled palyers in high tier matches ... still.

[Nept]

There is a growing set of evidence that there is an MMR threshold above which there exists a "different experience".  The population is much much smaller, and the level of skill is very high.  This would imply a different approach needs to be implemented.  I think a lot of people are of a similar opinion.

 

The idea of restricting MMR only in the negative direction could be pretty interesting.

 

I hear you, btw, on the desire to have the 24-slot mayhem servers not really a part of matchmaking.  Wednesday we'll make some adjustments there.

Definitely need the mayhem servers removed from matchmaking.  I typically want the 12-man games, and there's no way I'm getting them through the server browser.

 

Also, could you lock SS396 into 2500+ MMR games for a couple months?  Thanks.

[Xacius]

in this spoiler there is rage crock, view at you're own risk

wth crock why are you fighting this?!?!
http://hawken.heroku...ser/crockrocket
you are 1916 MMR
SMACK dab in the middle of an MMR war you have NO business chiming into ESPECIALLY QUOTING ME AND GOING AGAINST IT BECAUSE I USED DAVE AS A REFERENCE POINT OF THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO, YOU TRYING TO DEFEND THE "REST OF THE PLAYER BASE"? YOU'LL MAKE ME RAGE HARDER THEN XACIUS, DEW, ANY OF THEM, IM THAT KIND OF GUY THAT WILL GO ALL CAPS

 

> http://home.xshade.ca/users/publicmmr
> http://home.xshade.c...rs/leaderboard/
"2600+ mmr" consists of 20 players

 

lol.  Rage harder than Xacius/Dew.  How the fuzzy bunny did I get put into the same bracket as Dew?  I demand a recount.  

[T3CHM3CH]

hi guys

 

i am sure it has already been discussed at some point,

but why don't you make the servers accessible only for people with  mmr between  0/1500,1500/1700, 1700/1900, 1900/2100 ....

plus you make a couple of server accessible for any mmr (for the dave's like players)

 

i just played a game on the only 1800 server available (which is my level) and it was not fun because there was a 2300 player,of course he ended up  with the best score +300,( all the other players were below 200)

highest kill 15

highest kill ratio 15 (means he never died once)

and highest assist

just by himself he made the game unbalanced, we lost something like 23 /40

when the game ended, half of the people left.

so i was left with 2 choices,

i stay and win if i end up on his team or lose if i end up on the other team

or leave and join another server, the problem was the closest server (apart from the 1800 i just left) was a 1450 server 

 

btw that 1800 server had a mmr spread from 1300 to 2300