137 replies to this topic

[Onebullit]

You won't learn automatically from playing against better players.

You need to be a thinker and a good observer to learn.

[DerMax]

You won't learn automatically from playing against better players.

You need to be a thinker and a good observer to learn.

You also need to play against only slightly better players (+200 MMR). Playing against someone who is 1000 MMR above you will give you nothing.

[CrimsonKaim]

But does that work on everyone? What you are saying is based on your experience, which does not equal to everyone else`s experience.

 

And that is why no one else except the individual itself can speak. People telling me that others like to learn gently or getting frustrated when playing against the top ... these people's statement are worthless since they are not able to speak for others.

 

This includes this whole thread. Only the OP can tell what he is feeling and what his opinion is. He stated that he is frustrated (in some way). I said, one should use this oppotunity to learn. It is basically a way to turn something bad into something good.

 

 

The only reason why someone is overreacting once again is because I like to tell that straight forward. The content stays the same. I am not responsible for someone else's interpretation.

[GalaxyRadio]

This wasn't for you, Aregon. But if you want a reply:

 

I myself like to play with or against the top, always, no matter what, every game, every sport, whatever. Because you learn way faster this way. Yes it is frustrating at some point but the pay off is simply way bigger than if you learn slowly and 'gentle' like everyone else.

 

Read your own posts, you are just selfcentered, nothing else. We talk about people, yet you are talking only about yourself. You are not the world.

 

For example i like to play games like Dark Souls, iam really happy, if iam able to beat a boss or being in general really good and mostly never dies. Yet some people might play this game and have fun because of atmosphere/spund/graphic whatever, but put it away/selling it after 1-2 hours, because they are not able to beat even a normal monster or mini boss, not in years, they are only frustrated and don't want to play this game again. This is the world.

 

People from Electronic Arts were talking about frustrating/unbeatable games, because people needs to much time to get into it, yet we have today a dozen of games, were the tipps already are telling us without learning effect how to beat specific types of monster, or how to get a riddle done because it took us 1min. of thinking right away, or we can watch through walls with ears or gadget, because players shouldn't get frustrated by trying some routs or learn which route the enemy is using, watch and learn how to use it to your favor.

 

As i said already, strife away you big ego and come down from your high horse. 

 

@DerMax,

 

nope, if i play for example 15 games, 10 are unbalanced, 5 maybe alright and iam really really lucky, if people will sit just once in a lifetime. Sitting is really rare to see and mostly never happens. Sometimes you are just too focused to see the numbers and nobody request for sitting, it happens, but you have to say sorry after that. It happens to me either, a game ende with 10 points difference 40/30, but thats in the range of "ok", but not if a game starts right away with for example 15/3, especially if someone leaves on the weak team and people dont want to switch after 5min. and continue to stompo with 5 vs 3, sometimes i see even 6 vs 3 situations. Its more a hunting then competition then, really disrespectful.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Galaxy Radio

Edited by GalaxyRadio, 23 June 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[Amidatelion]

We in EU usually sit out if the game is too lopsided. I gather that it's not a regular occurence in NA.

It's a regular occurrence but good luck getting a 15 year old that just waited 5 minutes to get into a game to do that.

Edited by Amidatelion, 23 June 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Aregon]

And that is why no one else except the individual itself can speak. People telling me that others like to learn gently or getting frustrated when playing against the top ... these people's statement are worthless since they are not able to speak for others.

 

This includes this whole thread. Only the OP can tell what he is feeling and what his opinion is. He stated that he is frustrated (in some way). I said, one should use this oppotunity to learn. It is basically a way to turn something bad into something good.

 

 

The only reason why someone is overreacting once again is because I like to tell that straight forward. The content stays the same. I am not responsible for someone else's interpretation.

You are able to speak for others if it has been proven that the theory has worked in practice, which my theory has after what I have understood. It is a recommended way by several players and can even be found in other games, which give it a lot more of ground to stand on than how you believe other learn the best from your experience only.

 

We are not overreacting because you are talking straight forward, we are showing our reaction to you believing your experience with something is the only and ultimate way to do something. 

[LRod]

Bottom line (for me in any case): getting sick and tired of having my enjoyment ruined because some ego-maniac wants to continue stroking their "awesomeness" at the expense of everyone else.  There are other options: try a new mech, try a new play style, play bot TDM, join a private server, etc.  EVERY time I get frustrated with some selfish clown killing the match for me and the rest of the players, I find myself wondering why I still bother with this game, and think it might be time to move on.  I've been playing since before the Steam move, and stuck with it during the dev blackout, so if it's frustrating enough for me to question continuing to play this game, I imagine it's an easy choice for new players to say "f*ck this game..." and move on. 

 

The shame of it is that that choice isn't driven by the game being crappy, glitchy, or unstable servers, but rather a handful of selfish ego driven players.

[ThirdEyE]

 

Perhaps u forgot, but Hawken is video game you know, and purpose of playing video games is FUN. F.U.N. Thats why people play games. U got it? Cool.

 

He has right to play, it isnt his fault that he was put here, BUT WHY THE HELL HE HAS TO HOP IN HIS VERY MAIN MECH WHEN HE NOTICE THAT IT IS _RATHER_ LOW TIER GAME

I don't know, maybe the 2800 player also wants to have fun?  Sitting out is boring as hell, and most of the time you can't just find another server because the population is so low and there are rarely ever many high-rated players on outside of tpg matches, scrims, and events.  If you're frustrated with someone maybe you could politely ask them to play a different mech or lighten up, and if they don't then either deal with it or find another server.  You have more options than him and can easily solve your own problem of not wanting to play with him.

[crockrocket]

We in EU usually sit out if the game is too lopsided. I gather that it's not a regular occurrence in NA.

Still a pretty common occurrence. With certain crowds it's still a given that someone will sit if it is lopsided.

[LRod]

 

 

I don't know, maybe the 2800 player also wants to have fun?  Sitting out is boring as hell, and most of the time you can't just find another server because the population is so low and there are rarely ever many high-rated players on outside of tpg matches, scrims, and events.  If you're frustrated with someone maybe you could politely ask them to play a different mech or lighten up, and if they don't then either deal with it or find another server.  You have more options than him and can easily solve your own problem of not wanting to play with him.

 

So, based on that logic...you are stating that the needs of a small group of players, that by all accounts have had plenty of time to enjoy the game, outweigh the desire of the community at large to enjoy the game without being treated like cannon fodder.  Seems reasonable...**sarcasm is implied**

[crockrocket]

So, based on that logic...you are stating that the needs of a small group of players, that by all accounts have had plenty of time to enjoy the game, outweigh the desire of the community at large to enjoy the game without being treated like cannon fodder.  Seems reasonable...**sarcasm is implied**

 

I understand what you're saying here, but you can't just deny someone - on either end of the spectrum - the right to play on the basis of skill. I'll cede that maybe top players do hurt the n00b experience sometimes. But would you rather have the entire comp scene (TPG etc) vanish, along with organized events like WW, SSSDM, and UVW? Not to mention all of the streamers and valuable video content that is produced by high level players, much of which is made with the intent of helping newer players.

 

You can't just lock the top players out of a game, that's a great way to kill it.

[CrimsonKaim]

You are able to speak for others if it has been proven that the theory has worked in practice, which my theory has after what I have understood. It is a recommended way by several players and can even be found in other games, which give it a lot more of ground to stand on than how you believe other learn the best from your experience only.

 

We are not overreacting because you are talking straight forward, we are showing our reaction to you believing your experience with something is the only and ultimate way to do something. 

 

Well my experience is approved to be good by several other players as well. Gentle learning or hard learning, it is even. But no, one can not speak for other's, not even if the majority has an opinion.

That's like taking someone else's vote. It is simply not possible.

[CrimsonKaim]

Read your own posts, you are just selfcentered, nothing else. We talk about people, yet you are talking only about yourself. You are not the world.

 

 

This is my point, I can only speak for myself, just as others can only speak for themselves. I can't say that others have the same opinion as me as I can not read their minds.

 

In addition, you talk about people, everything else except your own experience/statements is worthless as you are not able to speak for others. 

[LRod]

I understand what you're saying here, but you can't just deny someone - on either end of the spectrum - the right to play on the basis of skill. I'll cede that maybe top players do hurt the n00b experience sometimes. But would you rather have the entire comp scene (TPG etc) vanish, along with organized events like WW, SSSDM, and UVW? Not to mention all of the streamers and valuable video content that is produced by high level players, much of which is made with the intent of helping newer players.

 

You can't just lock the top players out of a game, that's a great way to kill it.

I also understand what you are saying, and to a great extent I also agree with your perspective, but I think we can also agree that until this gets sorted out in a way that is amenable to all players; elite-tier players should be sensitive of their effect on a match and 'slow it down' a bit for the benefit of teaching others.  Raising the collective MMR of the entire player base would go a long ways towards making all matches more competitive.

[GalaxyRadio]

I was just showing there are more opinions then yours and yours is not what most people are made off. 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Galaxy Radio

[crockrocket]

I also understand what you are saying, and to a great extent I also agree with your perspective, but I think we can also agree that until this gets sorted out in a way that is amenable to all players; elite-tier players should be sensitive of their effect on a match and 'slow it down' a bit for the benefit of teaching others.  Raising the collective MMR of the entire player base would go a long ways towards making all matches more competitive.

 

 

Well I think population is the real solution. In the interim, I'm not sure that there are any satisfactory solutions.

 

I would suggest that reloaded focus on improving the new player experience: better tutorial, more free hc, etc. Better player retention will lead to more population. Additionally, once reloaded pushes out their first patch, we're going to see a lot of returning players. Both of these will help with population, leading to better mm and fewer mmr barriers broken.

[Hek_naw]

An anecdote from yesterday: I joined a packed 3-star TDM server by the end of the match, then many players left post-match, and then we were only 7.

 

Next match I was in the 3-man team (vs 4 others) and soon after starting, our best player says he should slow down to keep score even, and I was like "what the fuzzy bunny, I'm getting destroyed here 1 or 2 vs four every time and you are the one who wants to slow down?". So ironically I was having a bad time because our star player wasn't even trying to shield me and my team mate, and only played seriously if he saw our team's score drop behind.

 

I just checked herokuapp and he's top 30 in North America, and he scored top (by far) in the following three matches. It all got better afterwards because more players joined in.

[manthi]

thanks everybody for your contribution 

 

 

just reading this thread you clearly see those who care for the community and have a code of honor,

and the rest, the selfish ones only focusing on their own pleasure.

 

i can already foresee who's going to be surrounded by their loves one on their last day on this planet, and who's is going to finish alone, with nobody caring for them

 

have fun 

[Dew]

thanks everybody for your contribution 

 

 

just reading this thread you clearly see those who care for the community and have a code of honor,

and the rest, the selfish ones only focusing on their own pleasure.

 

i can already foresee who's going to be surrounded by their loves one on their last day on this planet, and who's is going to finish alone, with nobody caring for them

 

have fun 

 

What a useless, pity-whoring post.

[manthi]

What a useless, pity-whoring post.

then go somewhere else, nobody is asking for your opinion

[manthi]

To be honest, he/she wasnt trying very hard from the looks of it and you were making it easy for them. 

 

Flying while shooting a sustained weapon with a long spinup.. and not dodging, or going full bore into groups of them with your health almost out... and pretty much not using cover... 

 

At one point he ran right by you and kept going. You were spared, and you still went after him..

i was not trying to be competitive or efficient, i just wanted to make a video to illustrate my point

[coldform]

WEEEEEEE

[reVelske]

i can already foresee who's going to be surrounded by their loves one on their last day on this planet, and who's is going to finish alone, with nobody caring for them

 

Because saying that fuzzy bunny to a community for simply having opposing opinions is going to get you far in life too.

 

Most people actually empathizes your frustration, but with that kind of attitude? Ha.

[thirtysix]

What I find disturbing is that the player in the video lacks good sportsmanship.

[Aregon]

then go somewhere else, nobody is asking for your opinion

You are on a public forum, you asked for all the opinions. 

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

But does that work on everyone? What you are saying is based on your experience, which does not equal to everyone else`s experience.

^

What the good Sir said.

 

I believe that newbies should also have a choice if they want to head against high mmr players.  That way, the ones who want the challenge can get it, while those who don't will be able to practice and have fun as well without getting 'rekt'.

 

The video shows how drastic and one sided conflicts can be when even one high mmr player joins a low mmr match.  Some may like it, most won't; this game isn't the easiest due to the weird in-between in mechanics and pacing.  High mmr players should be able to play, but they shouldn't be pitted against lower levels as much as possible.  It's not fair to the newbies who get into those matches.

 

TL;DR: Everyone should have their fun; but not at the misery of others.  High mmr players might feel bored with easy to kill newbies, and newbies might dislike smashing their face against the hardcore skills of a skilled veteran.

[OmniStone]

Hey, I literally just joined the server right before you started that vid(my ego forces me to point this out). It was like 2100 rating or so when I joined, most likely from cluster being in there. It was also the highest rated TDM going on at the time. You should also know that this game is mostly dead, hence why cluster was probably in there, as it was likely the highest rated TDM server for him as well.

I was watching Cluster through spectator mode one day, and I noticed some very strange things going on. He fired off 13 flak cannon shots, then fired off 3 volleys of 6 tows each, then I watched him dodge around in the shape of a triangle(he even dropped a repair orb on each point of the triangle!). With some basic math(and a touch of logic), I have concluded that Cluster is a member of the high MMR devil worshipping Illuminati group that goes into servers to pubstomp newbies to inflate their super high MMRs.

On a more serious note, you guys are some carebear conspiracy theorists. So cluster touched you in your nono place(your ego), time to run and tell mommy(the forums). A bunch of ppl seem very entitled to having their own version of fun, and when they don't... you had better go out of your way to make sure that they do, otherwise they might make a forum post about it. Grow up, the world doesn't revolve around your fun-having fuzzy bunny. 10/10 thread, I love this community.

[coldform]

TLDR A 15 year old with a deep devotion to the game who waited way too long to play one day played his buns off against those who are less skilled than he is, because the only way he could get into a match was to wait and let the system dump him into the best available match.

Edited by {TDM} coldform, 23 June 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[crockrocket]

I was watching Cluster through spectator mode one day, and I noticed some very strange things going on. He fired off 13 flak cannon shots, then fired off 3 volleys of 6 tows each, then I watched him dodge around in the shape of a triangle(he even dropped a repair orb on each point of the triangle!). With some basic math(and a touch of logic), I have concluded that Cluster is a member of the high MMR devil worshipping Illuminati group that goes into servers to pubstomp newbies to inflate their super high MMRs.
 

 

This is worse than I thought! I hadn't realized that they'd started converting them so young...

[HepTagoN]

 

 

I don't know, maybe the 2800 player also wants to have fun?  Sitting out is boring as hell, and most of the time you can't just find another server because the population is so low and there are rarely ever many high-rated players on outside of tpg matches, scrims, and events.  If you're frustrated with someone maybe you could politely ask them to play a different mech or lighten up, and if they don't then either deal with it or find another server.  You have more options than him and can easily solve your own problem of not wanting to play with him.

 

 

<facepalm> - You got answer for you question in quote. He dont ahve to sit out, he got multiple options. You dont have to read my post, just read that damn part you are quoting. <facepalm again>

 

So you are saying I should ask politely if somone could stop being douche? No way.

I'm rather high tier player in EU, and i can confrim that I there is quite decent server everyday, so i'm sorry but your argument is invalid.

However, recently i've got quite busy, so someone from EU pls confirm. ILikeChickens, neon, galaxyradio?

 

What a useless, pity-whoring post.

 

You did not have to be so rude, OP is thankful because feedback he got, and said truth about caring about community - stomps = decrasing number of players. Or am i wrong

[Nept]

You did not have to be so rude, OP is thankful because feedback he got, and said truth about caring about community - stomps = decrasing number of players. Or am i wrong

 

i can already foresee who's going to be surrounded by their loves one on their last day on this planet, and who's is going to finish alone, with nobody caring for them

 

have fun 

 

Oh yeah.  OP's just a great person.  Don't be rude, guys!

Edited by Nept, 23 June 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[manthi]

What I find disturbing is that the player in the video lacks good sportsmanship.

there is still some nice people around, i just played a game against evil_dustbunny  (2400 mmr)

and when an extra player joined their side (3vs2), the guy just sit and watch us play,

hawken need more player like him

[DM30]

Bottom line (for me in any case): getting sick and tired of having my enjoyment ruined because some ego-maniac wants to continue stroking their "awesomeness" at the expense of everyone else.  There are other options: try a new mech, try a new play style, play bot TDM, join a private server, etc.  EVERY time I get frustrated with some selfish clown killing the match for me and the rest of the players, I find myself wondering why I still bother with this game, and think it might be time to move on.  I've been playing since before the Steam move, and stuck with it during the dev blackout, so if it's frustrating enough for me to question continuing to play this game, I imagine it's an easy choice for new players to say "f*ck this game..." and move on. 

 

The shame of it is that that choice isn't driven by the game being crappy, glitchy, or unstable servers, but rather a handful of selfish ego driven players.

 

It was amusing at first, but I'm starting to get tired of this overused "high mmr players are all evil fun-killers" bandwagon. It's both false and tedious.

 

How about this, then:

 

I'm getting sick and tired of low-mmr skrubs quick-matching into high-tier games and having my enjoyment ruined because some griefer wants to drag his team and the entire quality of the match down at the expense of everyone else. There are other options: use the offline training mode, play bot TDM, look up tips, etc. They're just selfish clowns with vendettas against the game's top tier, killing the match for me and the rest of the players.

 

Unreasonable? Yeah, I think so too. So how about we stop with the baseless generalizations and accept the fact that most of the time people just want to play and take what the game gives them?

[ticklemyiguana]

Not a whole lot of productive discussion in this thread. Good on you, guys.

[thirtysix]

there is still some nice people around, i just played a game against evil_dustbunny  (2400 mmr)

and when an extra player joined their side (3vs2), the guy just sit and watch us play,

hawken need more player like him

 

Indeed. Nothing wrong with doing the right thing. Hope more people try it.

[LRod]

It was amusing at first, but I'm starting to get tired of this overused "high mmr players are all evil fun-killers" bandwagon. It's both false and tedious.

 

How about this, then:

 

I'm getting sick and tired of low-mmr skrubs quick-matching into high-tier games and having my enjoyment ruined because some griefer wants to drag his team and the entire quality of the match down at the expense of everyone else. There are other options: use the offline training mode, play bot TDM, look up tips, etc. They're just selfish clowns with vendettas against the game's top tier, killing the match for me and the rest of the players.

 

Unreasonable? Yeah, I think so too. So how about we stop with the baseless generalizations and accept the fact that most of the time people just want to play and take what the game gives them?

Then I suggest you get real comfortable playing with a really small player base, because eventually that is all you are going to have for an option when everyone else gets tired and moves on to other games.  I wonder how long Reloaded will continue to pay the bills and "keep the lights on" to satisfy an ever shrinking demand for this game.  You and your friends have likely already bought the majority of the mechs, skins, droids, and other customizations that you were going to pay for, and the revenue that your small group will generate cannot compare to the potential dollars/euros/$$ that a larger new-player base will create.  Leaving open the question: who's going to pay to keep the devs around to create new content?  A handful of game snobs?  You alone?  Get real...you're strangling the same game we all enjoy and want to play on an even (fair) level.

Edited by LRod, 23 June 2015 - 05:41 PM.

[GGGanjaMan]

This is just too funny. Hawken already has such a tame community. You're playing a FPS-PVP game, where the goal is to kill others and win. You want to restrict those that perform better at this than you from playing, because they're too good? You actually want them to "slow down" and "play down to your level" for what... to even the playing field for you? This reeks of such a defeatist attitude. I mean instead of trying to improve so that you can play up to their level, you instead want the opposite - your goal is to kill the competitive spirit in general? When did gamers start adopting such a care-bear sentimentality; I mean why are you even playing a PVP game then? If being killed by players better than you makes a game not fun for you, by all means find a PVE or singleplayer game you can have fun at. Go play PVE against the Hawken bots, but beware because they do taunt so you may get your feelings hurt there too.

Trying to overcome the challenge of facing off against more skilled players gets my adrenaline pumping, motivates me to focus, to improve upon my mistakes, and constantly strive to do better than them. Expecting someone to "slow down and play down to my level" seems not only self-deprecading but also silly to me. I'm amazed that you wouldn't find that insulting even. But if people don't like such challenges, there's no reason to continue playing such online PVP games. Because the truth is there will always be someone better than you in these games. If that concept proves too frustrating to handle, there are plenty of good singleplayer games out there, go have fun.

[HeavyMetalFenix]

Reading a thread like this is like watching a group of people complain about each other while they ignore the slowly shrinking room they're in (this game).

 

Matchmaking can't work when there's not enough people. It will never be perfect, but more players to fill more servers = higher likelihood of a balanced match. Sitting out to balance a match, playing as poorly as you can to not pub-stomp, and waiting long periods of time for a suitable-MMR server to appear are not fun ways to spend your time, regardless of the amount of positive karma/honor/good-guy points you build up doing it.

 

I'd like to believe that this game will grow and attract tons of players, and we all have our hopes pinned on Reloaded Games, but I don't think a couple of new maps, a few new mechs, and a facelift are going to attract hordes of players (or entice former players) to return to a game that's been in (somewhat) beta since 2012.

 

They need to think bigger, or get additional investment. Hopefully they know this already and have something good hidden up their sleeves.

 

Otherwise we're gonna keep fighting over the last table scraps in the next thread. And the room keeps shrinking.

[DM30]

Then I suggest you get real comfortable playing with a really small player base, because eventually that is all you are going to have for an option when everyone else gets tired and moves on to other games.  I wonder how long Reloaded will continue to pay the bills and "keep the lights on" to satisfy an ever shrinking demand for this game.  You and your friends have likely already bought the majority of the mechs, skins, droids, and other customizations that you were going to pay for, and the revenue that your small group will generate cannot compare to the potential dollars/euros/$$ that a larger new-player base will create.  Leaving open the question: who's going to pay to keep the devs around to create new content?  A handful of game snobs?  You alone?  Get real...you're strangling the same game we all enjoy and want to play on an even (fair) level.

 

I'm not saying things should stay the way they are. As many people have said countless times, having more players would make this significantly less of an issue. Everyone, including the top tier, would be much happier playing with more people of their own level, not being forced to play outside of it.

 

A lot of really good suggestions have been made on improving new player experience and retention: Better tutorials, locked beginner servers, HC rewards coming back to service awards, discounted prices on players' first mech purchase, and so on. I'm sure there are a lot of other effective ways to grow the game's population so that low and mid-mmr players have more people in their own range to play with, and more players climb the mmr ladder so that the top tier have better games as well.

 

One thing I know for certain, though, is that going around pointing fingers at the game's top players saying "You're all pubstomping jerks out to get the rest of us!" is doing absolutely nothing to help the situation.

[DieselCat]

Bottom Line...game needs more players. When that happens most of these issues being discussed here should disappear. Everyone one has a right to play this game, from top to bottom tier players, but until the player base increases considerably this community will be faced with the same ongoing problems of balance.

 

There just are too many empty servers and not enough players to fill them at the moment. I don't begrudge the best players from trying to find a match and end up getting dumped into a low ranking server because that is where he/she was queued into. Should they maybe take into consideration the situation they are in ?

I Suppose, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to play.

 

That being said, I believe the same thing holds true for a player of considerable lesser skill that ends up in a high tier match. It's unfortunate for everyone because all are trying to get the best experience out of the game that they can.

 

I'm sure Reloaded is fully aware of the status of things at this point and realize the main goal is to get the game more players.

 

*+