314 replies to this topic

[Miscellaneous]

It's refreshing to see the two goofest goofs � Nept and Crafty � finally writing some good stuff and not edgy sarcastic remarks.

 

*DESIRE TO WANT TO WRITE AN EDGY AND SARCASTIC REPLY INTENSIFIES*

[Silverfire]

Wow Benny.... They're bummed about losing their victim status. Wow dude, you've got some problems with that wheeled hamster between your ears.

Have you ever tried contributing to a discussion instead of just silly immature name calling. It's posts like these that cause censorship.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Silver, can you honestly say that with a straight face after reading his post? If so then I'd say there is something wrong with your hamster too.

[Silverfire]

Silver, can you honestly say that with a straight face after reading his post? If so then I'd say there is something wrong with your hamster too.

Yes I can say it with a straight face, yes. I actually did. He's allowed to have his opinion and he said it with less vitriol than you have been saying this entire thread, hidden or unhidden. All I see in your posts is "lol u h8 gaiys, ur ##cked up wuts rong wid ur brain." Grow up, it's tiring and immature, and your pitiful slamming is getting old. We're not all American, we're not all liberal, we're a diverse group of international players who having differing world views on political topics. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing or having a differing view on this topic.

Be civil. And be mature.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Being a group of international people doesn't exempt us from human decency. Maybe in this fantasy land where you live in it does. If you live in Belarus for example and everyone is racist and homophobic doesn't make it ok for you to be one too because everyone else is. I'm sure there are a lot of German soldiers who would have loved for that to be a defense post 1945.

Oh look, our hosts are eating the villagers across the river. Well, it would be rude if we didn't at least try a bite. ERRONEOUS.

[Aregon]

Being a group of international people doesn't exempt us from human decency. Maybe in this fantasy land where you live in it does. If you live in Belarus for example and everyone is racist and homophobic doesn't make it ok for you to be one too because everyone else is. I'm sure there are a lot of German soldiers who would have loved for that to be a defense post 1945.

Oh look, our hosts are eating the villagers across the river. Well, it would be rude if we didn't at least try a bite. ERRONEOUS.

When you are learnt up by culture that it is so and it is punishable to do something against it, it will be hard to understand other`s view on it.

[hoghead]

This was all about getting to ware a badge or not wanting to ware a badge wasn't it? Now we got to eat villagers too! Come on!!

Edited by hoghead, 28 June 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[dorobo]

uh oh give me the badge!

Edited by dorobo, 28 June 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[CraftyDus]

 I'm sure there are a lot of German soldiers who would have loved for that to be a defense post 1945.

 

Speaking of ERRONEOUS

There it is. It was inevitable.

But  then    Godwin's Law   is a constant.

Eventually they always arrive at Hitler or the Nazis.

 

Listen bud, you are very new and so do not know Silverfire, but he's no bigot and you keep trying to paint him as such.

There's nothing wrong with his "hamster wheel".

People like him and he's well respected for being a reasonable person around here.

I can assure you, he's not a Nazi or Hitler.

 

There's very little in the way of saying "be civil, and be mature" that you can reasonably feign outrage toward.

[hestoned]

did somebody say death match? :D

[wolfrock]

y'know the heart camo WAS free before :3c...

Was that before steam? I started playing last march so probably missed it.

[ticklemyiguana]

Was that before steam? I started playing last march so probably missed it.

It was literally in February before that. I've been waiting a year and a half for it. Now quick! Make it exclusive so I can feel special!

[hoghead]

I think we should get one free camo! Yea that's what I think.

[LEmental]

Yes...  The LGBT community has a bad habit of crying Wolf,  and frankly we're tired of it.

"Cry wolf" as you deem it is something necessary.  People need to be called out on their bigoted actions.  I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are CIS gendered male, white, and heterosexual, and most likely middle class (or at least you don't worry about money).  You see, it's very easy for people like that to not understand that they are privileged.  People like that aren't discriminated by some arbitrary thing (color of skin/gender).

 

 

Celebrate as you call it,  but not really, because even in your media,  you are lamenting the loss of your "victim" status.

Who the hell wants to be a victim? I DON'T WANT TO RAPED OR MURDERED!

 

No one has a problem with a gay person or player.   We have a problem with the "Victims" who cry "Wolf" when someone asks you for the time of day

Yes, in fact people do have a problem with gay people.  I have run into many of them.  And yes, violence happens. I don't think you understand the actions that you do to help perpetuate the oppression of marginalized individuals.

 

 

We can't stand people who are dishonest.   that can't defend their lifestyle honestly.

Oh please go on and tell me what it's like to fight for human rights on a daily basis.  Please tell me how I should go about getting equal treatment, because what I (and every other oppressed minority) are doing is slow and painful.  I DON'T WANT TO BE A VICTIM!

 

It's the same mentality with many in the black community.   Do you know why people hesitate to hire some?   Not becasue they're black,  but becasue they're afriad of a lawsuit if an employee wakes up on the wrong side of bed.  It's a litigious liability.

  No, I'm pretty sure they are racist.  Honestly, not many black people in the country have the resources to procure a lawyer anyways.  And anyway, if they are treated equally (based on work performance) then they have nothing to worry about.  It's not easy to sue people.
 

The LGBT community THRIVES on making a stink about things,  look at the debate in this game forum.  Normal,  professional game players are yawning,  and wanting to get to the game,  the LGBT community lets the insults, names, and vitriol fly like flak from a Raider Re-Flak gun, if we all don't "share in the celebration".  

I do believe you are miss reading things.  When someone says that gay marriage being legal is not a good thing, they are homophobic.  That is also like saying "I don't really care if black people can vote"  "Eh, women only get paid 10% less, that's not a big deal".

 

Please please please.  I encourage all of you to take a step back and try to understand the struggle of the oppressed people of this world and not be so hasty to judge. Understand that you may be "accepting" but your actions may speak otherwise.

Edited by LEmental, 28 June 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

Yes I can say it with a straight face, yes. I actually did. He's allowed to have his opinion and he said it with less vitriol than you have been saying this entire thread, hidden or unhidden. All I see in your posts is "lol u h8 gaiys, ur ##cked up wuts rong wid ur brain." Grow up, it's tiring and immature, and your pitiful slamming is getting old. We're not all American, we're not all liberal, we're a diverse group of international players who having differing world views on political topics. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing or having a differing view on this topic.

Be civil. And be mature.

 

Ok, tbh you're either being willfully ignorant to further an agenda or you just aren't reading between the lines of Bad's post (it isn't necessarily bad if you aren't able to; if you don't deal with these things frequently then it's sometimes difficult to understand why something is shitty) if you don't think it's hateful:

 

Yes...  The LGBT community has a bad habit of crying Wolf,  and frankly we're tired of it.   Celebrate as you call it,  but not really, because even in your media,  you are lamenting the loss of your "victim" status.   No one has a problem with a gay person or player.   We have a problem with the "Victims" who cry "Wolf" when someone asks you for the time of day.  And yes,  Polygamists and minors are right behind.   We can't stand people who are dishonest.   that can't defend their lifestyle honestly.   It's the same mentality with many in the black community.   Do you know why people hesitate to hire some?   Not becasue they're black,  but becasue they're afriad of a lawsuit if an employee wakes up on the wrong side of bed.  It's a litigious liability.   The LGBT community THRIVES on making a stink about things,  look at the debate in this game forum.  Normal,  professional game players are yawning,  and wanting to get to the game,  the LGBT community lets the insults, names, and vitriol fly like flak from a Raider Re-Flak gun, if we all don't "share in the celebration".   

 

In short.   I respect good,  professional, courteous game players.   Period.  And I'll celebrate when our team wins!  

 

Here's why:

 

1. Saying "the LGBT community has a bad habit of crying Wolf, and frankly we're tired of it" is implying that the issues GSMs face are insignificant, irritating, and should be ignored by "regular" people.

 

2. The scare quotes around "victim" imply that he thinks no one is actually victimized and that GSMs are just acting like they are out of self-interest to gain some sort of an advantage over cishet people. 

 

3. Saying that gay marriage will lead to the acceptance of pedophilia is a common far-right tactic that has no validity if given the slightest amount of thought. The difference between child marriage and gay marriage is obvious: children are not legally able to consent, and regardless, there is a huge power differential inherent within an adult-child relationship that makes it manipulative and unethical by its very nature. Polygamy should be legal though because I give zero fuzzy bunnys about what consenting adults do as long as no party that doesn't consent is harmed. 

 

4. Do you honestly even need an explanation for why "It's the same mentality with many in the black community.   Do you know why people hesitate to hire some?   Not becasue they're black,  but becasue they're afriad of a lawsuit if an employee wakes up on the wrong side of bed.  It's a litigious liability." is ignorant? Really? 

 

5. This "The LGBT community THRIVES on making a stink about things,  look at the debate in this game forum.  Normal,  professional game players are yawning,  and wanting to get to the game,  the LGBT community lets the insults, names, and vitriol fly like flak from a Raider Re-Flak gun, if we all don't "share in the celebration"." once again insinuates that no problems among GSMs are legitimate and that they just want to stir fuzzy bunny with cishet people for...entertainment? "Normal" is also a fairly loaded term; while heterosexuality is normal insofar as it's the most common sexual orientation, saying people who aren't straight aren't "normal" implies that they're abnormal, a term that's usually interpreted to mean deviant or different in a bad way.

 

I'm not a fan of language policing and don't get pissy whenever someone uses a word I don't like, but his post was most definitely intentionally bigoted.

 

 

In short.   I respect good,  professional, courteous game players.   Period.  And I'll celebrate when our team wins!  

 

It's too bad that I'm such a whiny little SJW while still being a better player than you could ever hope to be 

 

Spoiler

I really, really don't like bragging, but I couldn't resist the snark

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 June 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[LEmental]

Yes I can say it with a straight face, yes. I actually did. He's allowed to have his opinion and he said it with less vitriol than you have been saying this entire thread, hidden or unhidden. All I see in your posts is "lol u h8 gaiys, ur ##cked up wuts rong wid ur brain." Grow up, it's tiring and immature, and your pitiful slamming is getting old. We're not all American, we're not all liberal, we're a diverse group of international players who having differing world views on political topics. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing or having a differing view on this topic.

Be civil. And be mature.

[n3onfx]

"Cry wolf" as you deem it is something necessary.  People need to be called out on their bigoted actions.  I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are CIS gendered male, white, and heterosexual, and most likely middle class (or at least you don't worry about money).  You see, it's very easy for people like that to not understand that they are privileged.  People like that aren't discriminated by some arbitrary thing (color of skin/gender).

 

 

While the person you initially quoted said some pretty disgusting things and I agree with your stance on the matter of gay rights, I hate that SJW buzzword notion of "privilege". It's always applied as a blanket term to every white male in the world, regardless of geographic region or political context. Thinking "american privilege" applies to every person outside of the US as well as long as they have a penis and pale complexion is being short-sighted. History and culture treats people differently in different parts of the world.

[LEmental]

While the person you initially quoted said some pretty disgusting things and I agree with your stance on the matter of gay rights, I hate that SJW buzzword notion of "privilege". It's always applied as a blanket term to every white male in the world, regardless of geographic region or political context. Thinking "american privilege" applies to every person outside of the US as well as long as they have a penis and pale complexion is being short-sighted. History and culture treats people differently in different parts of the world.

I'm going off the fact that (KDR) Bad_BennyAK lives in Alaska.  And yes, if you are White in Japan you will be treated differently.

 

It's not surprising to be uncomfortable with the word "privilege" being used in an aggressive way towards one of your groups.  But, it's important that people try to understand WHY this person is saying that. You may not be a bad person, but people say that a group you belong to does bad things and thus you may feel like they are calling you a bad person.

 

You have a lot of power and just understand that many people don't have that same power.  Understand that not every voice is heard equally.  Give space to those who normally aren't given the opportunity to do so. Understand why people say the things that they do.  Understand that maybe you are saying things that perpetuate the oppression.

 

Like for me, I'm white.  I use my whiteness as an ally to the black community.  I don't say what the black community needs.  It's not my place.  I don't have the slightest clue what it's like to be black.  So, I give them the space to tell me what they need, and I support them.  I may say something that is racist, and when people call me out on that, I correct myself.

 

Everyone makes mistakes.  I think Bruce Lee says it well "Mistakes are always forgivable, if one has the courage to admit them." (At least in the context of something that can be fixed.)

Edited by LEmental, 28 June 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

While the person you initially quoted said some pretty disgusting things and I agree with your stance on the matter of gay rights, I hate that SJW buzzword notion of "privilege". It's always applied as a blanket term to every white male in the world, regardless of geographic region or political context. Thinking "american privilege" applies to every person outside of the US as well as long as they have a penis and pale complexion is being short-sighted. History and culture treats people differently in different parts of the world.

 

It's not really just an SJW buzzword, though. Privilege is almost universally accepted as a valid sociological concept within academic circles; the issue comes when it's misinterpreted and misapplied by some people who only have a cursory knowledge of it and think they can shut down someone they're talking to by pulling out the privilege card on subjects unrelated to the other person's actual privileges. You're right that discussions of it it can sometimes be centered around Western norms, but the idea itself is solid and a ton of privileges are basically ubiquitous. For example, there are no countries I'm aware of that are matriarchal or homonormative. 

 

LE's use of the term was appropriate and accurate because the stated privileges are directly related to the subject at hand (aside from the income part I guess) and preclude firsthand experience while making it easier to hate the "other." 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 June 2015 - 07:13 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

OK.  I'm older, and since I retired from racing motorcycles, I have little connection to today's buzzwords and younger scene.  You, this forum, and the conversations I have in game/TeamSpeak are all that I have to connect with, and I exclude my three daughters (ages 13-19) because I will be DAMNED before I ask them:

 

I need a decoder ring:

 

MSM:

SJW:

Others:

 

?

 

Help a dude out?

Edited by Call_Me_Ishmael, 28 June 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

MSM=men who have sex with men

GSM=gender and/or sexual minority. It's gaining popularity as an alternative to LGBT since it's more inclusive without being alphabet soup like a lot of these: https://en.wikipedia...i/LGBT#Variants

SJW=social justice warrior, a typically pejorative term popular among reactionaries

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 June 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[Nept]

Wow Benny.... They're bummed about losing their victim status. Wow dude, you've got some problems with that wheeled hamster between your ears.

 

Have you ever tried contributing to a discussion instead of just silly immature name calling. It's posts like these that cause censorship.

 

 

I think that response is both overly dramatic and disingenuous.

 

Going to disagree with Jeff and LE on this one - in some respects, anyway.  Were I rating "discussion effort," I'd rate Benny's post higher than Poopslinger's (I think that's Poopslinger, anyway).  The former's offensive because of its (obviously) bigoted beliefs and poor argument structure; to my mind, though, it represents an earnest attempt at discussion.  At the very least, it's an earnest portrayal of beliefs and opinions - however flawed they might be. 

 

Poopslinger's response is flippant, and nothing more.  He makes no attempt to address Benny, and is garnering support only because he represents the more popular opinion (ironically).

 

Silverfire's post obviously originates from a place of frustration.  His hyperbole ("have you ever") was a bit much, but his point is worth considering.  You preclude discussion when your first response to an unpopular opinion - however bigoted it might be - is a flippant insult.  Imagine I were attempting to address sexism and anti-homosexual attitudes within a religious group and opened with the line "You're all stupid, and here's why:".  Not great for discussion.

 

It's very tempting to high-horse your way through "discussions" about social progression and human rights.  It's frustrating and difficult to respond calmly and logically to bigotry.  However, I would suggest bearing in mind the goal of your arguments.  If you're attempting to sway Benny from his position, you're not doing a great job.  In fact, LE's post, when read from Benny's perspective, looks a lot like the "crying wolf" he complained about.  You must beware of confirmation bias - the tendency to interpret information such that pre-existing beliefs are protected - and address incorrect opinions appropriately.  Being right doesn't mean that you've succeeded in conveying your message.

 

Now, if you're simply trying to ridicule Benny in hopes that he'll stop posting - a tactic that I often use on gaming forums - then by all means, proceed.

Edited by Nept, 28 June 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

MSM=men who have sex with men

GSM=gender and/or sexual minority. It's gaining popularity as an alternative to LGBT since it's more inclusive without being alphabet soup like a lot of these: https://en.wikipedia...i/LGBT#Variants

SJW=social justice warrior, a typically pejorative term popular among reactionaries

 

Thanks.  I can now follow the players on the field...

[JeffMagnum]

I didn't really think Wm's posts were particularly constructive either, though. I just had a problem with these parts of Silver's post implying that Benny was making his points respectfully and inoffensively.

 

Yes I can say it with a straight face, yes. I actually did. He's allowed to have his opinion and he said it with less vitriol than you have been saying this entire thread, hidden or unhidden

...

Be civil. And be mature.

[LEmental]

We have better things to talk about than this

 

 

So folks what about reducing that weapon raise delay

 

yea or nay

I think it's posts like this that really get to me. This is a about a current event, not about weapon delay. It's like shoving it under the rug, not caring. If Silverfire spends all this time calling people out on not being civil (which is valid), why wouldn't he call people out for bigoted posts?

[Nept]

I didn't really think Wm's posts were particularly constructive either, though. I just had a problem with these parts of Silver's post implying that Benny was making his points respectfully and inoffensively.

 

Yeah, I can see that.  But it's a bit of a catch-22, right?  How do you respectfully and inoffensively convey views that are inherently offensive?  Even the world's most eloquent writer would be hard-pressed to inoffensively convey his hatred of Asians.  And let's face it: Benny is not the world's most eloquent writer.

 

In my opinion, avoiding offense isn't a necessary component of good discussion.  In fact, I don't think you could adequately discuss many (important) topics if avoiding offense were your goal.

Edited by Nept, 28 June 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[CraftyDus]

A few minor adjustments would make your dressing down a bit more solid, FTFY

 

 

not many black people in the country have the resources to procure a lawyer. 

 

That's not true

 

It's not easy to sue people.

 

 

It's remarkably easy to sue people

 

I do believe you are miss reading things.

 

I do believe its Ms.

 

 

 

 

[JeffMagnum]

Yeah, I can see that.  But it's a bit of a catch-22, right?  How do you respectfully and inoffensively convey views that are inherently offensive?  Even the world's most eloquent writer would be hard-pressed to inoffensively convey his hatred of Asians.  And let's face it: Benny is not the world's most eloquent writer.

 

In my opinion, avoiding offense isn't a necessary component of good discussion.  In fact, I don't think you could adequately discuss many (important) topics if avoiding offense were your goal.

 

I mean, I don't think it would be possible to express his viewpoint in an entirely respectful manner, but some parts of it were clearly unnecessarily offensive and didn't make any meaningful contribution to his "argument." It's like the difference between "I don't like gay people" and "I hate stupid faggots;" the sentiment is roughly the same, but the latter is obviously more aggressive and unnecessarily confrontational. 

 

I agree 100% with the second part of your post, though. And incidentally, tone policing is often used to silence oppressed groups who are rightfully pissed off by how they're treated, so what you said is even more relevant here than usual. 

[CraftyDus]

In my opinion, avoiding offense isn't a necessary component of good discussion.  In fact, I don't think you could adequately discuss many (important) topics if avoiding offense were your goal.

 

This thread in particular sets a new precedent here at CHF of people seeking to be offensive and seeking to be offended.

Not to mention the many late arrivals to the discussion that are completely unaware of the large amount of content that has been removed over the last 2 days.

 

Seeing the attacks on people that they seem to have no idea had earlier in the thread been making grand gestures of support and defense in their stead is disappointing.

 

To one who is aware of it, it looks like an incapacity to exhibit gratitude and a compulsion to lash out indiscriminately.

But then they can't be expected to appreciate it, when they have no clue it happened.

 

I just hope there aren't too many casualties to sense and human decency in everybody's hurry to be righteously indignant and outraged at what amounts to a mere portion of what could truly be revealed about what went on here.

[1uster]

Just read 7 pages. So what's a badge exactly?

[JeffMagnum]

There really wasn't a good solution to take care of some of the earlier posts. The thread is disorganized and hard to understand in some places now, but I think that the earlier arguments would've continued to the point where there would be no other option aside from locking this topic since the devs want to keep the forums at a certain level of decency. I'm sure the newcomers here would've quoted some of the old posts and started the whole argument up again too even if the hypothetical initial flame war would've naturally died down by some miracle. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 June 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[Silverfire]

Opening up the thread to discussion was a bad idea. Event should've been posted, and allowed to happen, but not this long thread. This thread had raised more ire in the community has about political topics than in the past few years. That alone is a reason why I don't want to embroil myself in this too deeply. Tiggs violated the forum rules, and this whole ugly discussion ensued.

I choose to call for civil discussion and choose not to call out people (other than for senseless insulting that don't contribute to discussion) because I don't want to discuss my own beliefs and political views on the forums. If I wanted to do that, I'd have a real conversation. I don't want to put myself on either side of the conflict here because I don't want to deal with bigots that exist on both sides.

If you don't like my nonparticipation and my attempts at neutrality, too bad. It's not my issue, I'm not LGBTQASONEJODMWIHR.

Edited by Silverfire, 28 June 2015 - 04:46 PM.

[CraftyDus]

There really wasn't a good solution to take care of some of the earlier posts. The thread is disorganized and hard to understand in some places now, but I think that the earlier arguments would've continued to the point where there would be no other option aside from locking the thread since the devs want to keep the forums at a certain level of decency. I'm sure the newcomers here would've quoted some of the old posts and started the whole argument up again too even if the hypothetical initial flame war would've naturally died down by some miracle. 

 

Nothing hypothetical at all.

There was some full on hate speech and some bizarre misdirected white-knighting and there's vestiges of it still left, albeit hard to discern.

There was some of the ugliest **** I have ever seen on our forums within the first 2 hours.

Some of it easily warrranted a lock. However others felt locking it would have been a victory for  perpetrators of hate.

Most people trying to "out tolerance" here haven't a clue how bad it's been.

 

We as a community are quite inclusive and defensive over our minority members.

If you are among our GSM members, understand and appreciate many people here have had your backs when you weren't looking.

We are conspicuously decent to each other for the most part in Hawken, in general.

 

Particularly compared to many other popular comp shooter game cultures with glaringly obvious deficits in their ability for compassion and tolerance.

So while I understand the necessity to check and correct antiquated worldviews, I'd suggest cutting some of the marginal cases a little slack.

Most of us are friends here. I'd like to expect that for the most part will remain true.

[JeffMagnum]

I sat in my friends' apartment alone from like 8:00 am to 11:30 pm yesterday with nothing to do but use my phone, so I saw a lot of what was deleted. How bad was it before that?

 

 

If you don't like my nonparticipation and my attempts at neutrality, too bad. It's not my issue, I'm not LGBTQASONEJODMWIHR.

 

I lean very heavily toward heterosexuality to the point that I'm functionally straight, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't care about people who actually get treated poorly because of their gender or sexual orientation. And saying "LGBTQASONEJODMWIHR" is hardly being impartial for multiple reasons, but I'll refrain from giving you further fuzzy bunny about it. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 28 June 2015 - 02:54 PM.

[Bad_BennyAK]

  If you want to be aware of the mentality and driving factors behind certain movements,  it's good to keep up on their media,  on what their writers are saying,  such as The Advocate or Out.  

Eric Marcus,  the Author of "Making Gay History" said, and I quote: 

" There is something wonderful about being part of an oppressed community", yet warns against too much nostalgia.  The most vocal gay rights activitsts may have celebrated being outsiders, but many gay people want "what everyone else wants, - the ability to fall in love, have families, pursue their careers, and live their lives". 

 

As I said,  no one has a problem with gay people - it's the activism,  which more often than not DOES NOT represent the majority of the people they claim to represent.  I hope I made myself clearer.  

Would you agree, or disagree with that perspective? 

 

If rappers could chose to banish the ghetto for a good life,  or keep the ghetto, which is so much the subject of their rap,  which do you think they'd prefer?  

Edited by (KDR) Bad_BennyAK, 28 June 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[Bad_BennyAK]

Opening up the thread to discussion was a bad idea. Event should've been posted, and allowed to happen, but not this long thread. This thread had raised more ire in the community has about political topics than in the past few years. That alone is a reason why I don't want to embroil myself in this too deeply. Tiggs violated the forum rules, and this whole ugly discussion ensued.

I choose to call for civil discussion and choose not to call out people (other than for senseless insulting that don't contribute to discussion) because I don't want to discuss my own beliefs and political views on the forums. If I wanted to do that, I'd have a real conversation. I don't want to put myself on either side of the conflict here because I don't want to deal with bigots that exist on both sides.

If you don't like my nonparticipation and my attempts at neutrality, too bad. It's not my issue, I'm not LGBTQASONEJODMWIHR.

Agreed,  100%   I much prefer arguing over whether a CTF game type should have flag spawn points, or flag drop cooldowns!  

[Bad_BennyAK]

Ok, tbh you're either being willfully ignorant to further an agenda or you just aren't reading between the lines of Bad's post (it isn't necessarily bad if you aren't able to; if you don't deal with these things frequently then it's sometimes difficult to understand why something is shitty) if you don't think it's hateful:

 

 

 

Here's why:

 

1. Saying "the LGBT community has a bad habit of crying Wolf, and frankly we're tired of it" is implying that the issues GSMs face are insignificant, irritating, and should be ignored by "regular" people.

 

2. The scare quotes around "victim" imply that he thinks no one is actually victimized and that GSMs are just acting like they are out of self-interest to gain some sort of an advantage over cishet people. 

 

3. Saying that gay marriage will lead to the acceptance of pedophilia is a common far-right tactic that has no validity if given the slightest amount of thought. The difference between child marriage and gay marriage is obvious: children are not legally able to consent, and regardless, there is a huge power differential inherent within an adult-child relationship that makes it manipulative and unethical by its very nature. Polygamy should be legal though because I give zero fuzzy bunnys about what consenting adults do as long as no party that doesn't consent is harmed. 

 

4. Do you honestly even need an explanation for why "It's the same mentality with many in the black community.   Do you know why people hesitate to hire some?   Not becasue they're black,  but becasue they're afriad of a lawsuit if an employee wakes up on the wrong side of bed.  It's a litigious liability." is ignorant? Really? 

 

5. This "The LGBT community THRIVES on making a stink about things,  look at the debate in this game forum.  Normal,  professional game players are yawning,  and wanting to get to the game,  the LGBT community lets the insults, names, and vitriol fly like flak from a Raider Re-Flak gun, if we all don't "share in the celebration"." once again insinuates that no problems among GSMs are legitimate and that they just want to stir fuzzy bunny with cishet people for...entertainment? "Normal" is also a fairly loaded term; while heterosexuality is normal insofar as it's the most common sexual orientation, saying people who aren't straight aren't "normal" implies that they're abnormal, a term that's usually interpreted to mean deviant or different in a bad way.

 

I'm not a fan of language policing and don't get pissy whenever someone uses a word I don't like, but his post was most definitely intentionally bigoted.

 

 

 

 

It's too bad that I'm such a whiny little SJW while still being a better player than you could ever even hope to be 

 

Spoiler

I really, really don't like bragging, but I couldn't resist being a snarky fuzzy bunny here

Problem,  Jeff. 

 

1.  Your implication is that all LGBTs suffer the same problems, that are very real.  However, i know many people, have a few good friends in that category,  that have no problems at all.  How do they avoid the problems and trials we here about?  Simple, they are decent, normal people who work hard, get along, and are fun to be with.  I"m not saying LGBT's don't have problems.   I'm saying they're of their own making.  

 

2. Again, see 1.  Many LGBT people are great, and have fine lives.   The fact I use quotes is intentional.   It means problems can be avoided.  To say an LGBT activist represents all of that community is like saying Barack Obama or John Boehner represent me.  It's ridiculous. 

 

3. Far right tactic?   Pay attention to age of consent in other countries, and how often we refer to laws in other countries in establishing precedent in our own legislative process... when it suits their purpose.  Also,  in regards to Pedophilila,  the   B4U-ACT Baltimore conference had Dr. Fred Berlin of Johns Hopkins University address the conference, expressing support for organizations suich as B4U-ACT and NAMBLA.   Call me closed minded, but if anyone thinks these organizations have worthwhile "Mission statements",   Well,  we'll agree to disagree. 

 

4.  Do you run a business?  What background checks do you do?  Obviously you look for the most qualified canidates, with the strongest skillsets.  And if you don't find them, or have to choose between employess of limited experience or skillsets,  what's your procedure? How do you evaluate risk? Productivity?  What size city are you in? Pal, unless you run a business in this demographic,  You have no idea what your talking about.  I'm a business owner in an environment that sees high turnover in different occupations, so I deal with this,  employee complaints, schedules, etc. on a regular basis.  How many employees do you have, or manage?  What are the problems that the ones you let go have?  

 

5.  Again, the "problems".  I'm still waiting to see them.  We see a lot of names getting tossed around, but I've yet to see a real LGBT problem here.  

Yes,  I DO agree.   Normal is a loaded term.   I'll clarify.   Gamers who want to game and play Hawken.  Call me weird,  but when I chat with my team in Europe,  I don't bother asking them about the weather,  or what Angela Merkel is up to.  ;)   

 

So,  what points are bigoted? 

 

Bigot.  Noun. A person who is intolerant towards a person holding different opinions.  

 

If anyone is fitting that description here,  it's not me.  I'm here to game.  I'm fine with gay gamers.  I'm fine with Gay activitsts.   I just think if we're going to game, let's game.  And Notice I haven't called anyone a name,  or insulted anyone directly here, just pointed out a few general observations. 

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

Crafty, I respect your game play from some of the streams I've seen and loyalty to your friends I'm seeing here but you are wrong on this one. I too have read most of these posts and they don't paint a pretty picture of your friends. I really have to question your current position on the history of these posts you keep going back to because what you're saying isn't matching up to what was said. I'll have to resign to the fact there are some people who are really good at this game and very active in this forum but they appear to be horrible people IRL based on what I'm seeing here. If that puts me on the moral high horse, ok whatever, I'll live with that. Besides, we all know the high ground is where we all want to be tactically!

I'm looking forward to the day when the enlightenment finally reaches some of the people around here. I'm hoping I'll get a pm message that they're sorry for their earlier crazy position. To which I'll smile, give them a digital high-5 and send an invite to play some siege. Until then, I'll call bs when I see it with zero concern for what the senior members might think. Hopefully that paints me as a target in game, my play is crafty enough to handle it. Muahahaha, see what I did there! Haha ;) GG to all the non haters.

[ticklemyiguana]

Crafty, I respect your game play from some of the streams I've seen and loyalty to your friends I'm seeing here but you are wrong on this one. I too have read most of these posts and they don't paint a pretty picture of your friends. I really have to question your current position on the history of these posts you keep going back to because what you're saying isn't matching up to what was said. I'll have to resign to the fact there are some people who are really good at this game and very active in this forum but they appear to be horrible people IRL based on what I'm seeing here. If that puts me on the moral high horse, ok whatever, I'll live with that. Besides, we all know the high ground is where we all want to be tactically!

I'm looking forward to the day when the enlightenment finally reaches some of the people around here. I'm hoping I'll get a pm message that they're sorry for their earlier crazy position. To which I'll smile, give them a digital high-5 and send an invite to play some siege. Until then, I'll call bs when I see it with zero concern for what the senior members might think. Hopefully that paints me as a target in game, my play is crafty enough to handle it. Muahahaha, see what I did there! Haha ;) GG to all the non haters.

Dude, do you read what you're posting?

 

You've insulted, judged, and to some degree harassed both directly and indirectly people whose only wish is to not participate.

 

You've labeled them as homophobic, stupid, and closed minded without even attempting to understand what they're saying or why they don't want to participate.

 

I'll give you a hint: people like you.

 

The sort of negativity your posts have brought to this thread set movements back quite a bit. They shut down opportunities for growth and legitimate discussion. People with your kind of responses are the reason for people like Benny's responses - they're overdramatic and insubstantial, and contribute to the vision that Benny sees. You would be doing the GSM (going to start using that term instead, thanks Jeff) community a favor by just listening and not putting in your two cents so long as you're having a difficult time not making sweeping generalizations with no evidence.

 

You would be doing the community that you so vocally are trying to support, a favor, by not participating.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 28 June 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[comic_sans]

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