314 replies to this topic

[LadyTiggs]

Take a step back and chill out, you're all adults and not acting like it at all.  I'm really shocked at how a few of you are behaving, there are many other companies that are showing their support and are much more vocal about it then we are. At this point if you don't like it, that's fine you're allowed your opinion, just keep it civil, under control, on topic and rated G. 

[DieselCat]

http://steamcommunit...s/?id=465780471

 

#lovewins Hawken screenshot

 

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[CraftyDus]

Take a step back and chill out, you're all adults and not acting like it at all.  I'm really shocked at how a few of you are behaving, there are many other companies that are showing their support and are much more vocal about it then we are. At this point if you don't like it, that's fine you're allowed your opinion, just keep it civil, under control, on topic and rated G. 

 

You're shocked?

We have avoided divisive political discussions on our hawken forums for years and  saved our nerdy vitriol for game-related arguements.

This has enabled us to do without this obvious and predictable outcome to your political thread.

These disparate reactions are inevitable.

 

We are an international community of hawken nerds, with wildy diverse worldviews and perspectives.

We come here for the videogame comraderie.

We've know better than to post about politics for a long time here. Why don't you?

Edited by Crafty, 27 June 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Shoutaxeror]

Long live love.

[JeffMagnum]

I really think those things are pretty futile to ask for at this point, Tiggs. You're doing a great job at keeping the thread decent though by removing the worst posts so at least there's that.

Tbh I'm just surprised and disappointed by how hateful some people have been. I don't have Hawken liked on FB, but I checked the comments on the new pictures and they were (predictably) even worse. The only reason I even participate on these forums is because the community seems a lot more tolerant and accepting of GSMs and women than any other gaming-related one I've seen plus gamergate supporters never brought that fuzzy bunny here, so I assumed this topic would have fairly unanimous support. "Gamer culture" is just awful in general, but these forums seemed to lack a lot of the things that bother me about it.

Stop being idiots and just ignore the topic if you're so ridiculously offended by it. I never brought up any of my evil SJW beliefs in the over two years I've posted here because it just wasn't necessary to do so, but this is stupid.

Edited by JeffMagnum, 27 June 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[Nept]

it have a difference. For example, in my country no one restricted you to be a g?y. if you reach 18, you can sleep with men or women. go on special forum and talking with the same people, or go in g?y-club. nobody care. but don't try to organize a g?y pride parade, cuz it is a propoganda.

 

Personally, I find gay pride parades a bit annoying � certainly ostentatious. They're not something that I would enjoy being near (the parades, not gay people). They serve an important purpose, though: they demonstrate to the populace that it's acceptable to be gay. They're direct opposition to our previous social standards, whereby homosexuality was tolerated only when it occurred out of sight. And the wording's important too: tolerated, not accepted.

 

Is it propaganda? Amongst other goals, organizers aim to shift attitudes toward gay acceptance, so yes, it's propaganda. However, so too are the messages conveyed by your government and its religion, Nepa. In fact, government and organized religion constitute some of the most powerful propaganda engines in existence.

 

Propaganda isn't necessarily negative, though. I think that its harm potential depends primarily on 1) the message and 2) the means of conveyance (tied closely to the opportunity for discussion). The first factor is pretty derp, so we'll skip it; the second factor is slightly more subtle, and it doesn't seem as though you've given it much thought.  Let's briefly examine it through Russia and its state religion.

 

The Russian government and its state religion are powerful entities. One rules through legislation and almost complete media control, and the other rules under the pretense of ethical expertise (as do most religions) in conjunction with state interests. When either source presents an opinion, through legislation (like the homosexual propaganda laws) or other means, it's very difficult to argue against them � not because they're correct, but because they hold power and permit no public discussion. They change minds not through debate, but through force (argumentum ad baculum). A gay pride parade � and its organizers � have no such power, and must attempt to shift attitudes through appeals to logic and emotion.

 

Simply put, propaganda pushed by powerful sources runs a higher risk for harm. If your complaint against homosexuals is that they're bombarding you with propaganda, then you should level that same complaint against your government and its religion.

 

 

g?ys - the ordinary people in Belarus. they have the same rights as the rest people. they must obey the law as well as the rest people. nobody oppresses they . . .nobody beat they cuz they are g?ys.

 

yes, they can't live in official marriage, cuz our religion don't admit it. but they can easy live in civil marriage and love each other.

did you see here is the fundamental difference? i'm not.

 

we infringes someone's rights? I do not think so.

 

only one difference, they can't adopt a children. for ethical reasons. You can not give birth, it's your problem. it is the law of Nature, and you can not break it.

 

Firstly, when powerful sources push propaganda against minorities, they're seeking to shift public opinion against those groups. These shifts � especially those conducted under the pretense of �protecting the children� � often spur people to violence.  Gay people have been targeted, threatened, and beaten in Russia. I'm not sure how you've missed that, because the rest of the world hasn't.  To be fair, though, that's not just a Russia thing.

 

Secondly, �separate but equal� has failed spectacularly for the United States. People simply feel discriminated against (as they should) when they aren't allowed the same privileges and ceremonies as their peers, whether for reasons of race, religion, gender, or sexual preference. Since your church is so closely integrated into government, �separate but equal� will last longer than it has in the States. Eventually, though, enough people will rebel enough times to force change � just like situation in the States.

 

Thirdly, the moment you cite ethical reasons for denying homosexual couples adoption, you're admitting that they're viewed as inferior to their heterosexual brethren. Or are sterile heterosexual couples also denied adoption rights?

Edited by Nept, 27 June 2015 - 04:48 PM.

[CraftyDus]

I really think those things are pretty futile to ask for at this point, Tiggs. You're doing a great job at keeping the thread decent though by removing the worst posts so at least there's that.

 

Not at all.

She's deleted all kinds of clever, decent, and completely benign posts in her scramble to clean up the mess she created by introducing a discussion on the actions of the US Government here.

 

How she thinks its perfectly acceptable when the rest of the community knows not to post anything remotely political here for the good of our videogame community, seems more than a little oblivious of how we've always approached the community hawken forums as community members.

 

It's even in our community hawken forum rules as we all know.

 

The very reason you said you liked how there was no gamergate drama here was BECAUSE of this long recognized etiquette we use here regarding political discussion.

[DieselCat]

That's like the pot calling the kettle black...at times you can be the biggest drama queen here (no pun intended)

 

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[Amidatelion]

 

We've know better than to post about politics for a long time here. Why don't you?

 

You know, I've finally realized why this gets my goat.

 

This is incredibly patronizing and stuck in the past, a passive mainstay argument of people unwilling to change or act like they aren't 18 and playing UT99 anymore. 

 

Nerdy vitriol is nothing to be proud of, and saving it up for "game-related arguments" is laughable. It is a poor attitude to have and apparently not being able to control it when something "political" comes on the table is a mark of infantile behaviour, the sort of thing that tantrum-throwing children get put in a corner for. It's exactly attitudes like that that lead to simmering flame wars because a group of bloody adults regardless of their culture cannot seem to discuss things like the adults they claim to be. Yes, it is difficult to control emotions. That's not an excuse not to.

 

The belief that the status quo is the best way is stagnant and the belief these things must always devolve into flame-wars is lazy, entitled and typical of insular communities unwilling to accept new points of view.

 

I'm out of this thread, but I'm going to close with this:

 

Everyone in here made the choice to post when there was the option not to; freedom of speech is not a requirement to answer for everything, especially when you are completely capable of realizing that engaging will actively worsen the situation. 

[JeffMagnum]

I'm not saying every post was deleted fairly, but this thread would be far more of a shitshow than it is now and would probably just have degenerated into who can yell insults the loudest. I'm not a huge fan of overly aggressive moderating at all, but I think it's more appropriate here than with average topics.

That rule certainly contributes to it, but I'm still convinced most people here are less ignorant regarding social issues than the average posters on other gaming forums. W32's clan went over fine aside from one or two people who had minor issues, and multiple trans women have posted their pictures in that thread in OT without anyone making stupid comments.

Edited by JeffMagnum, 27 June 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Dedhed]

Yay for forum badge and paint sale!

 

I think it's pretty clear as to why Tiggs put this as a celebration in Hawken --> online game chat pretty much = hate towards multiple groups, one of the absolute most hated on being the gay community.

 

It's also kind of funny/ridiculous/sad that some replies here criticizing "the mess she created" with this thread and such are from people I've seen post some of the most obvious attempts at getting bad reactions, trying to justify their nonsense with "but this is political".

 

**sigh**    On the plus side, my frustration subsides when I remember that we humans are very prone to hubris, hypocrisy, denial and all other manner of mental tricks to make ourselves feel better about our own actions and superior to others, though none of us deserve the latter. You can't make anyone do anything, certainly not become honest or self aware.

 

So, once again: Yay for forum badge and paint sale!

[CraftyDus]

You know, I've finally realized why this gets my goat.

 

 

Some might misconstrue that to you sounding butthurt. Don't let it bother you so much.

 

BTW you have no idea how much of this thread you haven't seen and never will.

She's started what was obviously going to devolve into a series of ugly political flamewars and says she's shocked.

On the other hand we've never had a flame thread about something political in hawken, so nice work on introducing an exciting new direction for our community hawken forums, Tiggs!

[Nept]

I'm not saying every post was deleted fairly, but this thread would be far more of a shitshow than it is now and would probably just have degenerated into who can yell insults the loudest. I'm not a huge fan of overly aggressive moderating at all, but I think it's more appropriate here than with average topics.

 

I'm a bit annoyed I missed the earlier posts.

[DieselCat]

I'm a bit annoyed I missed the earlier posts.

 

Just ask Crafty, apparently he's seen and read every one before they got deleted......

 

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[CraftyDus]

It's kind of funny/ridiculous/sad that some replies here criticizing....

 

It's kind of funny/ridiculous/sad your inability to be direct.

 

Having some trouble addressing me there, aren't ya pal?

[Aregon]

I'm not saying every post was deleted fairly, but this thread would be far more of a shitshow than it is now and would probably just have degenerated into who can yell insults the loudest. I'm not a huge fan of overly aggressive moderating at all, but I think it's more appropriate here than with average topics.

That rule certainly contributes to it, but I'm still convinced most people here are less ignorant regarding social issues than the average posters on other gaming forums. W32's clan went over fine aside from one or two people who had minor issues, and multiple trans women have posted their pictures in that thread in OT without anyone making stupid comments.

It is better in my opnion to be led by an iron hand and be civilized than to be given a lot of freedom and then miss-use it utterly. 

[ticklemyiguana]

Some might misconstrue that to you sounding butthurt. Don't let it bother you so much.

 

BTW you have no idea how much of this thread you haven't seen and never will.

She's started what was obviously going to devolve into a series of ugly political flamewars and says she's shocked.

On the other hand we've never had a flame thread about something political in hawken, so nice work on introducing an exciting new direction for our community hawken forums, Tiggs!

Lay off a tad. Overall I think this has gone ok. No one died, maybe some feelings were hurt, but that's no different than usual. Sure Tiggs used a saw instead of a scalpel earlier in the thread, but there's no real precedent in this community to predict how a thread like this would go. (inb4 "it's the internet.")

 

I believe Tiggs shares my own esteem for this community and felt we could handle it. I'm unsure whether or not she's right on that matter, but I won't say I haven't enjoyed the days conversation.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 June 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

I'm a bit annoyed I missed the earlier posts.

I think the one that started a lot of it was along the lines of "i hate seeing gays rub their sexuality in my face all the time so they shouldn't be affectionate at all in public because gross/why do they get special treatment just for buttsexing each other/what about the children!!1/i don't hate gays i just hate everything they do and think they should have way less rights"

[DieselCat]

It's kind of funny/ridiculous/sad your inability to be direct.

 

Having some trouble addressing me there, aren't ya pal?

 

not at all bubba...your opinion opposing whether this topic should have been allowed in the forums in the first place is one that seems to be of a few and you are the lone vocal minority that keeps bringing this up. 

 

That's your opinion, fine. But please don't think you are the spokesperson for the entire community when in fact the majority don't seem to be having a problem with have this kind of topic posted on a gaming forum.

 

Happy now  

 

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[JeffMagnum]

And yeah, I've been stuck alone for like 12 hours in a friend's apartment that's almost completely empty because they're moving so at least this has been a valuable source of entertainment

[Aregon]

I think the one that started a lot of it was along the lines of "i hate seeing gays rub their sexuality in my face all the time so they shouldn't be affectionate at all in public because gross/why do they get special treatment just for buttsexing each other/what about the children!!1/i don't hate gays i just hate everything they do and think they should have way less rights"

 

This post has proved for me that both parts in this discussion are equally incompetent and are flat-out embarrassments for those in the community that try to act civilized, but overshadowed by discussions like these.

[ticklemyiguana]

This post has proved for me that both parts in this discussion are equally incompetent and are flat-out embarrassments for those in the community that try to act civilized, but overshadowed by discussions like these.

I don't want to offend you here, but it's discussions like this that determine what exactly civilization is.

[Call_Me_Ishmael]

 

not at all bubba...your opinion opposing whether this topic should have been allowed in the forums in the first place is one that seems to be of a few and you are the lone vocal minority that keeps bringing this up. 

 

 

I think it's really divisive.  I think we really can't afford the division.  I have *no* opinion other than that.

[JeffMagnum]

This post has proved for me that both parts in this discussion are equally incompetent and are flat-out embarrassments for those in the community that try to act civilized, but overshadowed by discussions like these.

My post just now or the one I was mockingly paraphrasing?

[CraftyDus]

....your opinion opposing whether this topic should have been allowed in the forums in the first place is one that seems to be of a few and you are the lone vocal minority

 

*+ 

 

 

No

But it seems like that to you because of whole pages of thread Tiggs felt the compulsion to delete, that you will never see.

this is fun

 

 

* edit

 

you replied to me while I was addressing dedhed, are you on multiple accounts in the same thread?!

top

kek

Edited by Crafty, 27 June 2015 - 04:25 PM.

[cavefishes]

I'm very happy about the news! Also excited to be able to get some new technicolor camos on the cheap!

 

It's a shame how good things like this can bring some real party poopers out of the woodwork, but I think that's going on all around the rest of the internet as well.

 

Now how about an actual rainbow skin? I need all the colors on there! 

[Aregon]

My post just now or the one I was mockingly paraphrasing?

Yes, almost every single post in this thread part of the discussion. No side is better than the other, and if anything I feel disgusted reading through all the posts.

[DieselCat]

No

But it seems like that to you because of whole pages of thread Tiggs felt the compulsion to delete, that you will never see.

this is fun

 

Please enlighten us, you seem to be the only one that has viewed them, or are you just elaborating on what was deleted wasn't fit for consumption ?

 

If Tiggs deleted certain posts I'm sure there was good reason for her to do so...man, get real !

 

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Edited by DieselCat, 27 June 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

Yes, almost every single post in this thread part of the discussion. No side is better than the other, and if anything I feel disgusted reading through all the posts.

Why do persistent bigots deserve politeness? Why should people respect the opinions of anyone who comes into a clearly celebratory thread just to direct hate speech toward the group of people that the thread is about?

Edited by JeffMagnum, 27 June 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[CraftyDus]

Please enlighten us, you seem to be the only one that has viewed them, or are you just elaborating on what was deleted wasn't fit for consumption ?

 

If Tiggs deleted certain posts I'm sure there was good reason for her to do so...man, get real !

 

*+

 

You see that's the trouble with the deletion of giant gobs of a discussion in haste to minimize the damage.

You'll never know, but ya. for really reals. So much is gone.

A significant number of reasonable, well worded, and even supportive posts were completely removed for no good reason, but that perhaps she was in a rush.

 

*edit

some pages in their entirety were removed all at once, the good , the bad, and the ugly.

Edited by Crafty, 27 June 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[Aregon]

Why do persistent bigots deserve politeness? Why should people respect the opinions of anyone who comes into a clearly celebratory thread just to direct hate speech toward the group of people that the thread is about?

If you believe your opinion is better than those persons, it is also pretty damn smart acting better than those persons as it will make you seem like the dominant in the discussion to others, even if it is not true. Thus you will have the people`s support, which in a community as such can be pretty important.

[ticklemyiguana]

Why do persistent bigots deserve politeness? Why should people respect the opinions of anyone who comes into a clearly celebratory thread just to direct hate speech toward the group of people that the thread is about?

Let's take Nepa for example - an outstanding community member - does great graphical work, and then works to make what he wants to say audible to the rest of the world, because English isn't his native language.

 

Nepa lives in Belarus, a country squeezed between Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, the Ukraine, and Russia. Belarus made homosexuality "legal" in 1994 - meaning you wouldn't be actively prosecuted for being gay. 1994 is in a lot of our lifetimes.

 

Gays in Belarus cannot adopt children, can be fired from their jobs for being gay, and certainly cannot marry (there's not even an option for civil unions or domestic partnerships.) Hell, they can't even donate blood.

 

Now, that last one. It speaks. The culture of Belarus largely views homosexuality as a sickness. Discrimination is common, and even hate based violence exists with little attention.

 

I truthfully wouldn't bat an eye if Nepa told us that he wasn't aware that the word "f a g" was something of a trigger word over here.

 

 

 

I've refrained from the usage of "gay" to mean lame and "fuzzy bunny" as an insult for the last couple years, but it took me a long time to really trim them from my vocabulary - and it's not like I reached the decision that "this is wrong" on my own. I live in a culture saturated with information and communication that puts an emphasis on individuality, and am to a pretty high degree, a result of it.

 

Nepa, and others deserve politeness because they are human, and are also partially a result of their culture and environment. It's hard to change someone's mind if you demonize them. Rudeness only widens the gap between us and anyone else, and the wider that gap gets, the easier it is to generalize, marginalize, and discriminate against them, eventually reaching a point where anything someone of that group says just has to be wrong, and it works both ways. I'm not saying that point's been reached or even come close to in this discussion, but it's very important that everyone see each other as human with a lifetime of experiences, thoughts, and cultural habits if this piece of technology we call "the internet" is ever to reach its potential.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 June 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[JeffMagnum]

If you believe your opinion is better than those persons, it is also pretty damn smart acting better than those persons as it will make you seem like the dominant in the discussion to others, even if it is not true. Thus you will have the people`s support, which in a community as such can be pretty important.

http://rationalwiki....i/Tone_argument

[wolfrock]

so ... how about that cheap paint? heart boxers for 17MC or whatever is pretty awesome.

 

I was thinking about marching in the parade with our work-sponsored float but I ended up covering for someone at work who is, so, oh well. Have fun, y'all.

[JeffMagnum]

Let's take Nepa for example - an outstanding community member - does great graphical work, and then works to make what he wants to say audible to the rest of the world, because English isn't his native language.

Nepa lives in Belarus, a country squeezed between Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, the Ukraine, and Russia. Belarus made homosexuality "legal" in 1994 - meaning you wouldn't be actively prosecuted for being gay. 1994 is in a lot of our lifetimes.

Gays in Belarus cannot adopt children, can be fired from their jobs for being gay, and certainly cannot marry (there's not even an option for civil unions or domestic partnerships.) Hell, they can't even donate blood.

Now, that last one. It speaks. The culture of Belarus largely views homosexuality as a sickness. Discrimination is common, and even hate based violence exists with little attention.

I truthfully wouldn't bat an eye if Nepa told us that he wasn't aware that the word "fag" was something of a trigger word over here.



I've refrained from the usage of "gay" to mean lame and "fuzzy bunny" as an insult for the last couple years, but it took me a long time to really trim them from my vocabulary - and it's not like I reached the decision that "this is wrong" on my own. I live in a culture saturated with information and communication that puts an emphasis on individuality, and am to a pretty high degree, a result of it.

Nepa, and others deserve politeness because they are human, and are also partially a result of their culture and environment. It's hard to change someone's mind if you demonize them.

Just fyi (not in a rude way), MSM can't donate blood in the US either.

Like I sort of went into earlier, I wouldn't have had any issues being cordial if his posts expressed his opposition to it and left it at that. That's understandable. But the cultural relativism card is not an excuse for someone to be a fuzzy bunny and post hate speech and especially to continue doing so after other people started telling him that his views were offensive and inappropriate in the context of these forums.

[Massive_Assailant_Stingray]

Rofl, Crafy is kind of like the internet equivalent of your racist grandparents. Because even though he's super chill and accepting of people, he still believes that "nerdy vitriol" not only facilitates online gaming, but is an inalienable right and requisite. While ignoring the fact that the competitive gaming of his time was founded on 13 year olds who, on top of various angsty tween behavioral issues, believed their gaming skills made them the second coming of Jesus.

 

Anyways the whole "I don't have an opinion but I'll argue with you for having one on some vague moral grounds" thing is kind of school lunch room talk.

 

Reloaded isn't even really making a huge deal out of this, just a casual nod of approval, which is a fairly common business move for any like minded company. (lookin at you oreos)

 

Anyways, High five america, congratulations gay people.

[CraftyDus]

Looking back through this thread, I can see why she hacked whole pages, she's having trouble keeping track of what should get deleted, so there are vestiges of responses all over the place to missing posts.

 

Some posts that appear to be related were seperated by so much time and discussion and other posts that were left alone by people she thinks she likes even though they contain quotes of posts she saw fit to delete.

 

It's so badly done, that's its kind of awesome.

[Nept]

Just fyi (not in a rude way), MSM can't donate blood in the US either.

 

Same with Canada, although there have been recent attempts to overturn those restrictions.  Last time I was on a donor list, they specifically asked whether I had - at any point - slept with men, or whether any of my female partners had slept with men who had slept with men.

 

*Edit* Interestingly, they didn't ask whether any of my female partners had slept with women.

Edited by Nept, 27 June 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

Just fyi (not in a rude way), MSM can't donate blood in the US either.

Like I sort of went into earlier, I wouldn't have had any issues being cordial if his posts expressed his opposition to it and left it at that. That's understandable. But the cultural relativism card is not an excuse for someone to be a fuzzy bunny and post hate speech and especially to continue doing so after other people started telling him that his views were offensive and inappropriate in the context of these forums.

I actually wasn't aware of that - though I thought it was a neat tie in to the cultural attitude of homosexuality as a disease.

 

However, if and when anyone who feels that way has brought it up in the past, they likely haven't met much resistance. I'm being serious here, Nepa as well as others may have genuinely thought - due to lack of discussion of it on the forums in combination with past experience - that practically everyone they regularly communicate with on the forums shared very similar beliefs.

 

And here when they voice their opinions, they receive backlash? I'm putting more thought into this than before, so apologies if me saying this is hypocritical due to any previous response - but that's got to be a little confusing. When people are confused we do stupid stuff. After all, as Nepa and Der both indicated, the large majority of people where they live would be rather shocked if say, a local chain of stores came out in support of LGBT issues. It's rather likely that initially people in this group perceived people supporting this decision to be greatly in the minority, and so our cries of "that's offensive/rude/hurtful" were practically laughable at that point.

 

It may not be a perfect reason, but it's certainly a human one that if either of us try, can definitely relate to at some point in our lives.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 June 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

Same with Canada, although there have been recent attempts to overturn those restrictions.  Last time I was on a donor list, they specifically asked whether I had - at any point - slept with men, or whether any of my female partners had slept with men who had slept with men.

 

You know, I'm positive that I've seen that question on almost every donor form I've ever filled out, but it just did not register with me until you all pointed it out. Ah, straight white male privilege.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 27 June 2015 - 05:08 PM.