29 replies to this topic

[Acguy]

I only own the incinerator, but they just seem and feel kinda pointless with the mechanics this game has. Hear me out before throwing down explanations since it'll probably help you tailor your advice to my needs:

 

Sustain tanks can just be run away from if they do start winning a skirmish, and they can't well defend any of their low health allies from hit and run burst damage since you can't get a kill if people are just running. Unless you've got a scout buddy with you to chase people down, you're kinda useless. If you really depend on having faster mechs with you that much you may as well just play one yourself.

 

Burst tanks on the other hand don't do well in sustained skirmishes, which defeats the purpose of having a bunch of health in general and is inevitably just going to make you regret playing something slow.

 

The only ones which really look good are the vanguard and the grenadier since you can get point-D with a grenade launcher, a pretty nasty sounding weapon combination that's unavailable on anything else. Incinerator trails close behind since the gattling and fireballs are fairly similar in practice even though you manage resources differently.

 

Regardless, I still don't really see the incentive behind playing them. Whenever I see heavy mechs, unless they've got a player behind them who's just really good in general, I always see them as bonus points, and conversely when I'm the one in a heavy mech I too just feel like an easy bonus points. When they hang back I never think "dam, I can't chase this guy because there's a heavy mech there," and when they move in I never think "dam, this giant slow pile of health has prevented me from doing something". They don't seem a threat when they hang back, nor when they march in. Either hit and run the smaller targets they're hanging back to cover them, or cornerpoke the big guys themselves when they march in to attack. What do you add to the team?

[wischatesjesus]

Burst tanks on the other hand don't do well in sustained skirmishes, which defeats the purpose of having a bunch of health in general and is inevitably just going to make you regret playing something slow.

 

As a heavy, if you run away from me I win.

 

Fight was near an objective? Objective is now free. Fight was near other players? Now the enemy has one less mech in the fight.

 

Not to mention if a team has a lead they get to dictate the terms of engagement to some degree, so if you pull a heavy in that case you don't even have to worry about that minor disadvantage.

[peacecraftSLD]

The heavies are very very very useful for team composition. You may not notice it but they add a lot of "meat" to a team. Your pretty much a tank for your team.

 

BTW, done correctly Incinerator will never overheat so it can keep on firing.

[Acguy]

As a heavy, if you run away from me I win. Fight was near an objective? Objective is now free.

 

I might try more objective gamemodes, I've almost exclusively played TDM.

 

Though in the broader sense I still disagree. Scouts, zerkers, and infiltrators are going to be playing hit and run anyway. They're gonna run in, kill a guy, then scram regardless of whether or not there's a heavy there. The heavy's presence isn't all that effectual on the whole engagement if they don't actually get a kill or at least stop someone else from getting one. I get that they might have "one less mech in the fight" if you chase someone off of a team fight, but if the entire enemy team just played faster mechs then you wouldn't actually win anything by putting them at a disadvantage because their whole team could just flee as a group. The only exception to that is if you're playing an objective gamemode and can theoretically win without getting kills. Outside of that, the only good ting thing about making the lighter enemy mechs flee is that you might end up isolating one of their slower mechs in the process, but they can resolve that issue by just not playing a heavy mech in the first place.

 

The heavies are very very very useful for team composition. You may not notice it but they add a lot of "meat" to a team. Your pretty much a tank for your team.

 

BTW, done correctly Incinerator will never overheat so it can keep on firing.

 

You aren't really explaining why. In my first post I basically asked "what's the point of having a bunch of health at the expense of mobility?"; responding with the statement "well you have a bunch of health" doesn't really tell me anything I don't already know. And yes, I know you can perpetually fire with the incinerator and never overheat.

Edited by Acguy, 28 December 2016 - 04:53 PM.

[peacecraftSLD]

...

 

 

You aren't really explaining why. In my first post I basically asked "what's the point of having a bunch of health at the expense of mobility?"; responding with the statement "well you have a bunch of health" doesn't really tell me anything I don't already know. And yes, I know you can perpetually fire with the incinerator and never overheat.

 

Well having more health should be the explanation. More health means you last longer in a fight. If it has more health the other mech has to work harder to beat it. If the other mech has to work harder to win, i don't think that was a fight he should have engaged.

 

Also, its not just the mech that has more HP but the enemy team has to "chew" through more of your teams health. Having 3 C classes on one team is a lot of HP to go through. Imagine trying to fight 2 C classes while making sure the rest of the enemy team isn't flanking while the third C class is walking with them just to give you a surprise.

 

They can soak up more damage for the team and if the enemy team ignores it, they will just destroy.

 

You are tank for you team and I have found it difficult to win a game without one on your team.

Edited by peacecraftSLD, 28 December 2016 - 05:12 PM.

[Amidatelion]

Think of Hawken as a resource management game. HP, fuel, heat.  

 

Heavies have the most of the most important resource, HP and often of fuel too, though they usually lose out on heat.

 

Scouts, zerkers, and infiltrators are going to be playing hit and run anyway. They're gonna run in, kill a guy, then scram regardless of whether or not there's a heavy there. 

 

And here's the thing - you are not likely at a skill level where a B, C or better positioned A-class will see those mechs and simply swat them out of the sky. It takes 4 seconds to kill an A-class. It takes like, 6-8 to kill a C.

 

Once movement and positioning is down pat, of two pilots of equal skill, one in an A-class and one in a C, the C will always win. There is no way the DPS of any other class can overcome that barrier on equal terms. Even on unequal terms, the HP levels the playing field. Mobility helps pad your HP, but a skilled player will simply pepper you with sustain, force a dodge and have a TOW or grenade or KLA waiting for you at your dodge location all the while happily trading damage with you, never having to bother with dodges aside from to ensure they will always have maximum DPS potential focused on you.

 

Competitive Hawken doesn't have a mech limit because too many A or B's break the game. Stacking C-classes will win anything versus any other teamcomp.

[wischatesjesus]

Eventually you need to win a fight. Hit and run is great and all but if you fail to kill a heavier mech he has the same time you do to repair and you've accomplished nothing.

 

Now in all fairness, I'm assuming some basic level of cohesion on both teams. If you're the lone brawler on a team of scouts that repel each other you might have some trouble finding favorable engagements.

[Acguy]

Well having more health should be the explanation. More health means you last longer in a fight.

 

A mech could have infinite health and still theoretically be bad. Imagine you had an ally who was unkillable but also did zero damage. They'd be a spectator, you'd be making the match 5v6 by picking such a mech. Even if you could assume a heavy mech has enough HP to litteraly never die, that alone doesn't cause them to add much to the team. They need to kill or prevent kills.

 

Eventually you need to win a fight. Hit and run is great and all but if you fail to kill a heavier mech he has the same time you do to repair and you've accomplished nothing.

 

Now in all fairness, I'm assuming some basic level of cohesion on both teams. If you're the lone brawler on a team of scouts that repel each other you might have some trouble finding favorable engagements.

 

That isn't correct though. I'm pretty sure the hp/s healed by repair drones is a flat rate, it takes more time to heal a larger healthbar. And I wasn't talking about just using hit and run on the heavy, but on someone he's protecting. You can't cover a healing ally at all.

 

Stacking C-classes will win anything versus any other teamcomp.

 

This sounds like the only way to make C classes viable since the "just never die" tactic applies to the whole team and you aren't slowing anyone down (given that you're already slow), but I'd still like to see some footage or something.

 

And I would also like to add that I'm fairly certain you play more on console, where orblording is at least slightly less of an issue; part of the reason why I don't understand C classes is because its already easy to feel like a "tank" on my b-class assault, which has more mobility and more offensive potential.

[wischatesjesus]

And I would also like to add that I'm fairly certain you play more on console...

 

K.

 

For context here, you are the only person in this thread without multiple seasons of competitive PC Hawken under your belt. The resulting opinions are largely colored by playing with the best players available.

[Acguy]

K.

 

For context here, you are the only person in this thread without multiple seasons of competitive PC Hawken under your belt. The resulting opinions are largely colored by playing with the best players available.

 

Checking to see if he mostly plays on console wasn't an insult; I brought it up as a means of asking if the state of orblording on PC would skew my perception, because to me that seemed very likely.

 

If you want to wank your credentials instead of answering to what I specifically said to you underneath your quote, you can kindly step off. If you're going to opt to take offense to speculation as opposed to providing insight, I don't need to hear from you. Ultimately I really don't care if you've got seasons of experience in competitive play on a game with 200 some players on at any given point in time. I'm going to judge what I hear based on the validity and soundness of the explanations provided. Even if you were literally the best player in Hawken, it would make no difference to anyone asking you about it if you couldn't articulate yourself.

Edited by Acguy, 28 December 2016 - 08:44 PM.

[Amidatelion]

Ok, we're getting off topic and personal here. Let's remember that this is a brand new skrub, willing to learn and bereft of 4 years of min-maxing experience. Also, let's remember that some of us are very old, very salty and very set in our ways to the point where having to explain "C-classes beat A-classes because HP" is like having to explain to a freshman that all parabolas are mappable to y = ax² + bx + c. It seems arcane at first glance but after repeating it literally 20,000 times it is just second nature and the explanation thereof hard to root out of the dim, dank confines of memory. (this conflicts with the whole "if you can't explain it, you don't understand it, but we're not all scientists and mathmagicians here)

 

The thing is, it is very hard to articulate this without visuals, and even with because there are very few that adequately capture the imbalance. I am too drunk at the moment to articulate my point better regarding HP pools, but the core of it is everything except a Brawler has the speed and HP to outlast an A-class, punish them for the smallest mistakes and chase them down when they are low, all without having to heal. And the Brawler has the kit to annihilate A-classes in an open field (SA-Hawkins) or burst it into oblivion in CQC (flak). It's just not great at chasing, but the chance that the A-class will survive to flee 265 damage in 1.2 seconds is low.

 

But some shitty visuals can be provided.

 

Here's one of a top-10 player in a scout versus a top-100. Sure, he catches him off guard, but its a good example of how little HP A-classes have.

 

Here's 11 minutes of me winning a Deathmatch against two of the best players in Hawken, because I am tankier than literally everything else on the field. There are at least 2 situations there where I advance on an A-class without bothering to dodge and just eat all of their damage before killing them. I set the terms of or seized the initiative from the opponent in almost every single engagement in that DM because I had the HP advantage and could reposition or bully the opponent at my leisure.

 

This is two drunk people of roughly equal skill just straight up beating the fuzzy bunny out of one another. Please note all the times the A-classes get destroyed by heavier classes (by both players).

 

More of the same. Eth0 is actually probably better than 32W but note every C-class kill against his A. He is optionless.

 

This is a pentakill in a CRT versus a bunch of A-classes.

 

Here's me utterly failing to beat a Sharpshooter in an Infiltrator, arguably the mech best designed to kill the fuzzing thing. Observe as he positions and forces dodges out of me to maximize his damage while minimizing my own. I'm very well aware of all of his tactics and several times you see me bait the shots out of him and still die because I can't do enough damage fast enough.

 

None of these are remotely satisfying from a diagnostic, this-definitively-displays-the-point and they are also not of ultra-high level 2600+ players because that just gets silly. But the general trend, I think, is displayed rather well: HP beats even moderate advantages in skill. Perhaps Hyginos and the remains of THC could put something together? I'm thinking Inci versus Hygs, which is broadly equal skill. I'd offer myself vs eth0 but the potato I am currently on manages 15FPS on plastic Hawken so no thanks. Maybe in a week, depending what the adopted dad has for a rig in Victoria these days.

Edited by Amidatelion, 28 December 2016 - 09:46 PM.

[nepacaka]

I only own the incinerator, but they just seem and feel kinda pointless

 

just put b3ar-PPA on it and play in siege. use only big faerballz and don't stop.

inci with BBY or MMA is pretty weak 1vs1, so if you play with these weapons, only remember that you working for your team and tech. if you not - you suck. (to be honest, incinerator should be like this, it should be support. it buff whole team, and tanking well, so, there is no reason why this mech should killing everyone)

probably, will be good play on Brawl, Gren, Vanguard before, to understand that these mechs are not the same with incinerator (or totally different with it). 
strong of heavy mech also depend on player move-style. if player can only walking to enemies and don't use jumps and other fuzzy bunny, C-class in his hand nothing more than 700-800 points of free damage to enemies :/

i mean, it is all about (depends on) player personal skill, and both team players skill.

Edited by nepacaka, 28 December 2016 - 10:13 PM.

[Acguy]

Perhaps Hyginos and the remains of THC could put something together? I'm thinking Inci versus Hygs, which is...

 

I don't think that would be worth your while, and I see where the explanation of my dilemma has been misleading; while it is the case that I've claimed heavy mechs have issues chasing down lighter mechs, and also the case that I've stated I don't quite get the point in having that much extra health, I'm not trying to argue that light mechs walk all over heavy mechs or are going to be the most optimal choice for duels. It's just that it seems any light mech should have a fairly easy time at least avoiding heavy mechs, which is basically forcing a stalemate, in turn letting the light mech just fight whatever else isn't a heavy mech (though as you pointed out, you could do a full sumo team).

 

I'm saying this because most of your links are more oriented towards downplaying light mechs than showcasing heavy mechs. I'm pretty sure a brawler can put two flaks and a tow into a scout for a speedy kill, which is worth knowing, but all the same a scout could also put two flaks and a tow into a scout for a speedy kill. Of course, the next thing you can say is "well you probably want more health than a scout; a scout can't flak-tow-flak a brawler" but that doesn't necessarily mean you need a whopping 700 some hp at the cost of other stats. You've still got B class, etc, which fulfill both the criteria of not dying instantly and the criteria of killing scouts fast. 

 

So in that sense, a C vs A showcase wouldn't solve much. Theoretically something like a [(C vs A) vs (B vs A)] sort of elaboration would make more sense, but you can't really just "show that". So on the subject of B class in and rapid-fire scout disposal, I ultimately think that what I'm really comparing heavies to is my raider. I get the benefits of being able to eat a burst and live, I get the benefits of being able to throw out a huge burst on scouts, and I can not only move faster than heavies after bursting them, but with the ability up can very easily chase scouts and all other sorts of A classes. There are specific moments in the raider where I can distincly recognize the flow of the game changing due to a specific thing I've done, and I don't see that as much while in or while watching a heavy suit. Those things I mentioned about the raider are all useful capabilities to me, and I can't figure out why making myself easier to run away from in exchange for more HP is worth it (though again, this is still ignoring a full team of heavy mechs, in which case avoiding heavys forever wouldn't be an option your opponent had).

 

Gren, Vanguard

 

So to anyone out there, how do gren/vanguard really compare to eachother? They're the only two heavies with identical secondaries iirc. Does one have better primaries available? When they both have the same primary (point D) does one perform better?

[coldform]

So to anyone out there, how do gren/vanguard really compare to eachother? They're the only two heavies with identical secondaries iirc. Does one have better primaries available? When they both have the same primary (point D) does one perform better?

 

 

for PC, the Point-D Vulcan on the Gren(Vulgren) turns it into a Swedish murder machine.  that 3-4 sec TTK against A's turns into 2.  on the flip side, the SMG vanguard is very versatile for close-mid arrangements, and very effective at close range when running the mini-flak(MANGUARD).

 

over both of them is the brawler.  tow/flak is a brutal burst combo, and every match could use some cowbell(SA hawkins brawler).

right now, the only C mechs with decent abilities are gren, incin and G2R.  while the brawler lacks a usable ability, it more than makes up for it in damage and health.

 

Edit: I wonder if there was a way to compile the top mech choices from the last regular season...

Edited by coldform, 28 December 2016 - 11:09 PM.

[nepacaka]

So to anyone out there, how do gren/vanguard really compare to eachother?

 

the difference in speed and playstyle, but the both are very strong.

i don't like vanguard with vulcan, but with smc/miniflak van is a dps-machine at close range. gren with vulcan is quite nightmare-mech while ability.

 

while it is the case that I've claimed heavy mechs have issues chasing down lighter mechs

 

don't think it is a problem if you moving well and know how. even brawler speed is quite enough. vanguard for exaple don't have any problem with it, it is literally B-class with +100 bonus HP. pretty imba imo. it is all about player skill like i say before.
 

I'm pretty sure a brawler can put two flaks and a tow into a scout for a speedy kill, which is worth knowing

 

as i playing on brawler almost all the time. in my expirience, i'm generally got a problem from bunch of C-class (4-5 in one team), than against scouts. especially in siege. i mean, can't remember when a-class team win in siege (if both team pretty the same by skill, obviously, you lose even with 6 C in team, if you team full of nubs, and the enemy team full of elite-players), i mean, C -class sux in siege.

the difference situation by the maps and another game mode. for example, i have a problem with lostEco in MA mode. ugly map for slow mechs. really stupid and boring gameplay for C's.

in general how i see this.
Siege - C>B>A

TDM, MA - B>A (but it is also depend on maps, MA on origin C>B, imo, due the you no need speed, 10 sec and you at the point)

all of this (i mean balance between A B and C) is a result of new ugly maps. i'm not sure that there is will be a time and possibilities to making good balance bettwen A and C (especisally now, with RLD, due the developers not play in their own game).

if all maps will be like prosk or origin, decreased C's HP will be a good way, imo. due the map is small, and easily flanking even for C.
but for map like lostEco...quite bad way, due the C's is so slow for it, and mostly the can play only in siege, where they literally spawn at AA after death, and 90% of map is never visited (only road to EU, and AA near the base, lol)

or quite bad matches with many C's in team on Frontline, where both team camping and sit on difference points, and can't attack each other, due the whole map is a "corridor of death". if you trying to rush, you will be stopped by crossfire, and there no covers between rooms. if you just shooting in enemies, they just go to corner and repair, than return, if you trying to rush and kill injured enemy, his team liqudate you in corridor of death. if you want flanking like on prosk, you need go almost around whole map, lol.

quite difference with Bunker. yeah, SA-brawler can be a very good on this map, but...oh.

what i'm trying to say - i see problem as a Complex. it is not about C vs A vs B. it is "C vs A vs B vs Maps vs DPS vs TTK and time to overheat"
 

[Hecatoncheires]

I think everyone is forgetting that Hawken is a team game and that out-running a heavy really isn't a thing in most cases (where everyone knows what they're doing).

With proper positioning and team-play, any change in stat or loadout is significant to the game. A heavy being able to soak up more damage is very significant in just being able to entertain an assassin for a second longer than a B-class. An A-class generally having faster movement and having a faster turn-rate than a B-class makes it more useful for leading/infiltration in the game (etc). B-classes generally being more well-rounded, are able to maintain execution in the game.

It's really just a difference of attack, hold, and defend guys. Don't make it so much more complicated than it needs to be.

Once you start adding "ego" into the equation, you really skew everything.

[wischatesjesus]

Theoretically something like a [(C vs A) vs (B vs A)] sort of elaboration would make more sense, but you can't really just "show that".

 

My team ran a lot of point defense drills which featured A and B mechs attacking a silo full of C mechs. If the lighter team isn't one mech larger (usually we did 4v3) they lose most of the time. I will try to find footage but I think twitch probably ate most of it when they changed how they store vods.

 

You are partially correct about B mechs in that the assault is good at everything, but the other Bs are highly specialized to the point where they don't work as general use fighters. Raider has hardly any reach (though I think the ability makes it much more useful generally than the following), SS has a poor CQ game, pred is pred, and G2A is a one trick pony.

 

For gren/van: gren has the option to do indirect fire and long range poke with heat/rev, substantial burst DPS with vulcan and ability, and more HP. Van is faster, has the option to skirmish mid range with SMC, and the Miniflak is a slightly better option than Vulcan extremely close as it has no spin up and better DPS. Mostly comes down to player preference IMO.

 

For the topic at hand: You can think of the HP pool as playing the long term average. If you have more HP than the enemy (individually or as a team), the enemy has to deal more damage to you than you have to deal to them to come out even. Since damage potential is pretty similar across classes, the logical play is to select mechs with the most armor. This also implies that sufficient skill can overcome the HP difference, which is also true, and part of the reason why the scout and raider are such excellent pub stomping mechs. Pubstomping is a whole different strategic discussion, however, and usually just becomes an exploration of the ethics of dumpstering randos.

[DerMax]

The deal with heavies is that they're better in pretty much 98% of scenarios. As an A class in a high-tier TDM lobby (2500+), you:

 

1. Must make sure you're always at almost 100% life, lest a sharpshooter one-shots you from across the map with their ability.

2. Must be extra careful to not run into a Flak Brawler, Heat Gren, G2 Raider or Raider when you round a corner, because all these need under 2 seconds to kill you from full hp and can one-shot you if you're not full hp, which will be the case most of the time in a high-tier match.

3. Must be absolutely paranoid about the enemy pred(s) lurking around (charged breacher + uncharged breacher + 2 mines = you're dead, which is under 2 seconds).

4. Must try not to go into open field, because any hitscan with decent falloff will make your life miserable (Hawkins, AR, Slug, Sabots, PPA, Breacher etc.)

5. Don't win a shootout against a C class, unless you EMP the bastard and then hit every single shot. And even then it can be not enough if they use their brain and take advantage of their deflectors/orbs/whatever they have or simply boost to their team for help. Or they can win time by moving point blank to you and forcing you to miss weapon cooldowns, because you don't want to kill yourself against them with your secondary.

 

So basically, as an A class, all you do is run away and repair (and die the moment you forget to be extra careful). As a C class, you dictate the game.

 

B classes also lose to C classes if stacked for the same reason.

Edited by DerMax, 29 December 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Acguy]

Don't make it so much more complicated than it needs to be.

Once you start adding "ego" into the equation, you really skew everything.

 

Saying "faster things avoid slower things" isn't "throwing ego" into the equation. And on the other hand, saying "don't make it more complicated" is tantamount to saying "don't think" or "don't explain". Even if this were a matter of ego, I'd choose ego over willful negligence in a heartbeat.

 

long term 

As an A class you must make sure you're always at almost 100% life

 

I think part of what I've been missing then is the fact that I don't need to always be at full health as a C, I'll recover less frequently.

[Amidatelion]

Saying "faster things avoid slower things" isn't "throwing ego" into the equation. And on the other hand, saying "don't make it more complicated" is tantamount to saying "don't think" or "don't explain". Even if this were a matter of ego, I'd choose ego over willful negligence in a heartbeat.

 

In regards to ego, I believe he is referring to several pilots who "main" certain classes to the detriment of all other and have an inflated view of their capabilities and those of their mechs. They have been thankfully absent from this discussion.

[DerMax]

In regards to ego, I believe he is referring to several pilots who "main" certain classes to the detriment of all other and have an inflated view of their capabilities and those of their mechs. They have been thankfully absent from this discussion.

Where's your ginormous post about what Hawken needs to not flop like it has twice already?

[Amidatelion]

Where's your ginormous post about what Hawken needs to not flop like it has twice already?

 

If you're talking about a previous post that I've made that I can't remember, can't help you.  

 

If you mean that bigass write-up about console Hawken and a PC patch that I was promising, it turns out the i7-2600 that's in the potato I was loaned isn't up to editing video and it will be a while yet.

 

If you're poking at my ego, guess what's rock hard and impervious to most forms of assault? (spoilers: it's not my weiner)

[Acguy]

In regards to ego, I believe he is referring to several pilots who "main" certain classes to the detriment of all other and have an inflated view of their capabilities and those of their mechs. They have been thankfully absent from this discussion.

 

That's understandable. I was easily in the top 10% of the last game I played (in NA at least), and found 90% of the forum advice to be garbage (though that usually came from an unwillingness to learn tech skill rather than a bias towards certain playstyles).

[Darktim300]

Find some videos of Hestoned playing a C class. You will understand then. They are a solid line breaking unit.

[Hecatoncheires]

In regards to ego, I believe he is referring to several pilots who "main" certain classes to the detriment of all other and have an inflated view of their capabilities and those of their mechs. They have been thankfully absent from this discussion.

This, but kinda sorta more that once you add the pilot into the equation, you're altering it with a new variable (in this case, "ego" is the pilot). Skill can make any mech just as good as another, or less so. Some would argue otherwise, but, again, their opinions do not factor in this discussion because it should mainly be about the "usefulness" or purpose of C-class mechs, not about their superiority or inferiority.

 

Saying "faster things avoid slower things" isn't "throwing ego" into the equation. And on the other hand, saying "don't make it more complicated" is tantamount to saying "don't think" or "don't explain". Even if this were a matter of ego, I'd choose ego over willful negligence in a heartbeat.

 

 

I think part of what I've been missing then is the fact that I don't need to always be at full health as a C, I'll recover less frequently.

"Don't make it more complicated" is more like me saying 1+1=2 rather than .8+.8=1.6. You don't need to add probability into the equation to understand the concept, because the real world is impossibly variable.

 

Sorry if the term appeared to be an attack on your "ego". heh. It was really just a dry joke.

[Acguy]

It's funny; I actually usually do default to using the word "Ego" that way because I have to read it that way in the texts I study, but I force my self to not interpret it like that when talking to people because they usually don't.

 

The papa bear make incinerator a lot more playable for me, with the exception of seige mode (the one place where incin actually felt really good at first while I had just the baby) since I just get fed too much heat on the AA. Is the mama bear considered best or at least better than either weapon? Normally I'd just, you know, play it myself, but I'm saving money to grab myself some mechs before the update rolls around.

 

-speaking of which, allegedly old mechs won't have their weapons changed when the patch rolls around. After I grab a grenadier (the secondary is different on console), I might grab a vanguard; it loses access to the SMG and instead has a baby bear on console. Would most of you consider this to be an upgrade or a downgrade?

[wischatesjesus]

I think the common consensus for high MMR incin players is that PPA is the best available weapon for it, as it provides the most damage. It takes a little more careful attention to heat though, as you have noticed.

 

I would consider SMC on Vanguard a direct upgrade to BBY primarily because of the spin up. The SMC's ability to reliably harass for very little heat cost at mid-long range is the biggest reason to not take either of the close range DPS monsters that are available to the van, and I don't think BBY really plays that roll well enough to be worth considering over vulc or miniflak.

[Amidatelion]

Would most of you consider this to be an upgrade or a downgrade?

I played with the BBY vanguard on console when it first came out. It was certainly not the disaster so many people predicted and, in fact, combined with default orblord probably conspired to bring some balance to the thing.

Then when weapon options were made available, I immediately slapped a miniflak on it because REASONS and those reasons are spelled M A N G U A R D.

But yes, the smc is a direct upgrade to the BBY and the miniflak a side grade to the smc.

[Acguy]

I think the common consensus for high MMR incin players is that PPA is the best available weapon for it, as it provides the most damage. It takes a little more careful attention to heat though, as you have noticed.

 

Even in modes like siege? In TDM I can get a rhythm going, but on a crowded AA it feels like I can't do anything but spam the huge fireballs; I get too close to overheating to shoot before the gun even finishes winding. Should I be farther back? As I recall it isn't super accurate at a distance though; feels more like a matter of space management than pure heat management (in a sense different from how you need to also manage space to not get ganged up on).

[Amidatelion]

Even in modes like siege? In TDM I can get a rhythm going, but on a crowded AA it feels like I can't do anything but spam the huge fireballs; I get too close to overheating to shoot before the gun even finishes winding. Should I be farther back? As I recall it isn't super accurate at a distance though; feels more like a matter of space management than pure heat management (in a sense different from how you need to also manage space to not get ganged up on).

 

Good that you've found the rhythm to the Incin, that's the most important thing. 

 

The huge fireballs are your main source of damage, all B34Rs are just heat generation items for the SAARE. The PPA's extra damage is nice, but its function is just to generate the most heat. It is reasonably accurate (more so than Vulcan, less so than AR) and has pretty good range, so it can be used from a distance, but the main thing for maximizing the Incin's damage is getting the high ground, especially if you can't hit targets dead-on with the SAARE. 

 

On the AA, with tons of mechs crowding you, you need to learn another rhythm - keeping the PPA spinning, but not generating heat and just firing SAARE blasts from absorbed heat. Then you can get off 1 or 2 individual shots to poke for damage or top up on heat.