76 replies to this topic

[Amidatelion]

Disclaimer: I love this game and my previous statements about Reloaded’s development stand: it is an honest effort of a learning team.

 

But that was in the context of a console environment where the majority of players had no previous exposure to Hawken, either personally or through media. A PC re-release is going to be a massively different beast because the majority of your initial playerbase will have personal experience they feel strongly about and because those players who lack that personal experience and investment have access to extensive media accounts that will paint an unflattering picture. 

 

And I don’t know about you, but I don’t trust the average person to approach a topic objectively or consider mitigating factors. And, honestly, there is a case to be made that the average player should not have to consider those factors.

 

In light of which, I can only warn that in the state it is in, porting console Hawken to PC will be disastrous for the game. The primary reasons will be:

1. GUI
2. Database issues
3. Mech balance, which can further be split into
   1. Individual mech balance
   2. G2 superiority. 
4. Perceived lack of content

These issues need to be addressed, if not solved, before the PC patch hits.

 

Spoiler

GUI

Spoiler

After CZeroFive said that the team hadn’t begun to think about GUI changes when approaching the PC patch, it was more or less certain in my mind that we would be subjected to the console GUI. For reasons unclear to me, it is apparently not possible to fork a branch off the console code or fork a branch of the current PC code and apply the console updates to that in order to restore/maintain the PC GUI. I believe this is actually because the current Howken code uses console code that ADH initially developed and then abandoned, but that’s rank speculation.

 

In any case, the Howken GUI will be brought to PC where the vast majority of screenshots, videos and guides showcase the Hawken GUI. I cannot imagine that the reaction will be positive for new players, and we already know what the reaction will be from vets. At the very least the professional damage control that will be required is on a level that 505 Games cannot afford, let alone Reloaded or Reloaded’s HWK div. 

 

Aside from visuals, the Howken GUI is functionally lacking. On console where few players have more than 10 mechs, it is possible to scroll through the 2xn garage set-up but as the player’s collection grows, it gets tedious and confusing. It also becomes more difficult to identify mechs due to poor visuals. The ability to name mechs here would help, but minutely. Additionally, Howken lacks the ability to switch weapons mid-match, an ability that a console-to-PC lost their mind over in Discord some weeks ago. It’s a sample size of one, but a significant anecdote.

 

There are other gripes, but I’ll just tell you to check out the Howken Review because as much as I love reading my own writing, you probably want to move on.

 

Database Issues

Spoiler

In the time that Reloaded has managed Hawken’s data, there have been roughly three times as many distinct, serious database issues on the PC side, culminating in the latest round where entire accounts have gone missing. While this is a somewhat-understandable byproduct of learning a new system, their continuance is worrying. And again, new or returning players are under no obligation to be understanding. While ee have been assured that the problems will be resolved with the PC patch… well, thrice bitten, shy forever more. 

 

Database and account issues make up the vast majority of reported problems across the Reddit and Steam Forums to the point where their visibility is among the very first things that new visitors read on those low-traffic sites. This is an actively hostile environment for developing the playerbase, a concern we have heard brought up repeatedly. 

 

If there is any doubt in your minds that your database issues are resolved Reloaded, please, please, for the love of God, hire a Database Administrator on contract. I know they’re expensive (among the most expensive IT personnel to contract even) but please consider the expenditure. A DBA can, after an audit/learning period, clean up your issues, provide you with properly mapped databases, and best practices going forward.  The last of which is desperately necessary because I’m sorry “the problems were on our provider’s end” is a statement that in a professional, enterprise environment gets you terminated.

 

And if a player one day logs in to find that their account no longer exists, their support of your product will be terminated even faster.

 

Mech Balance

Spoiler

Individual Balance

I’m going to skim over what is largely personal experience and to some extent subjective so as to not drag this on (you can check out the Mech Review for more information), but there are some deal-breakers balancewise for PC.

• Hitscan superiority: What may be balanced on console will likely not be, at all, on PC. The lackluster Kerby and stupidly high-ceiling Vytro are going to be viciously effectively on PC due to the overall better aim. The brief period I could use a XIM on Xbox gave rise to my belief that the BBY was viable on the Vanguard due to being able to out-dps anyone in the game due to my aim (spoiler: it’s not viable). Furthermore, non-hitscan mechs will suffer. This is the other half of my reasoning to remove/rework the Civ, because against a halfways competent player, its default loadout is worthless and its alternatives schizoid.
• A-class nerfs: Similar to the decision to restrict mech chassis, the decision to nerf A-class HP was an outcome based in simple ignorance of game mechanics and the unfortunate effect of a lot of high-MMR players stomping lower, less-experienced players. Sorry guys, it sucks but it’s the truth, you’re being punished for being too good and not playing down. Outside of making A-classes non-viable and C-classes even more dominating, a more long term fix would be a better, more exhaustive tutorial that people actually play through.
  • I understand that a cash-strapped company cannot prioritize the optimal enjoyment of high-tier players over the basic experience of new players and their wallets, but the current direction that Reloaded is taking is going to result in high-tier players moving towards B- and C-classes and dumpstering players even harder because, in case you haven’t noticed, the vast majority of them/us are congenitally incapable of displaying situational empathy/playing down due to a solipsistic desire to “improve,” “be the best,” and “have a bigger e-wang.” Appeals in this direction will not work and so it is incumbent upon you Reloaded, as the only party capable of making decisive, unilateral changes, to fix your fuzzy bunny.

 

G2x

The G2 issue is simple, and related to the above. I have been told by no less than three 2500MMR+ players that if Howken G2s make it to Hawken, that will be all they play. As base as this is, it’s pretty much all I expect from milges. While not every G2 offers game-breaking advantages, in the hands of players that already scrape every bare edge from every situation, the advantages on offer are significant. And there are game-breaking ones. G2 Brawler and Berzerker are two mechs that spring to mind in that the G2 Berzerker, even in the hands of a complete fuzzing scrublet, was a mech I was worried about on console. Also a 900HP Hawkins Brawler is, all else being equal, unkillable. Just saying. 

 

This will not initially be an issue for new players, but it will rapidly become one as more and more vets get caught up in what will be a G2 arms race, at which point I will stare into the camera, Office-style and bitterly vindictive as “I TOLD YOU SO” flashes irritatingly over the gif. 

 

Oh, and you’re gonna be called pay-to-win again, even though it is again “pay-not-to-grind” except this time worse than ever before. Someone do the math on getting a base Brawler to G2 in hours.

 

Perceived Lack of New Content

Spoiler

I know what you’re thinking. Roughly 10 new mechs and a bunch of internals isn’t a lack of new content! And you’re right. It’s not. But that’s not the title of this section now is it? Even with new skins, chassis, taunts, internals, items and I could go on but I won’t.

 

But I could.

 

None of these things have a major affective impact on players. No, there’s not a spelling mistake there. See, what Gearbox did really, really well in Borderlands was substantive visual and audio expansions to their content even while gameplay stagnated. Borderlands 2 and to a lesser extent the Pre-Sequel was successful because of the visual and audio developments that a) snared new players and b) blew existing players minds. In each case they lost “veterans” to things they didn’t like but gained new players, earning an uptick in initial sales (even if, in the case of the Pre-Sequel, they lost overall population). Now as Hawken, being a F2P game,  is never going to be a game that is going to be able to sustain itself with huge whales paying its bills, it needs those initial sales. While paintjobs, thrusters and chassis will give them something to spend their money on, the visual and auditory experience of the game will convince them to spend that money in the first place. 

 

And that last part applies equally, if not more, to vets. You have potentially hundreds of thousands of returning accounts on your hands and even $5 out of them is going to go a ways. But without new vistas and new sounds, that’s going to be harder. 

 

I know it’s a lot to ask of a small team, this last section. It’s why I saved it for last. But after fixing the above problems that make the PC relaunch functionally unviable, considering giving the playerbase new maps, new sounds. You may or may not be surprised at the response.

 

In conclusion…. Look. I’ve been working up to this in my head for a while now and it’s still kind of hard to give voice to. But in the state it is visibly in… Fuzz. Look, I know you guys are working hard on this. I know there are nitty-gritty aspects and politics I and other community members haven’t been exposed to. And I want to be clear that I do not intend to assume any sort of “voice of the community” position on this, despite my frequent pretensions. 

 

But as it stands, I cannot recommend that the PC patch go forward until the above problems are resolved. This is Hawken’s third chance. Or if you look at it another way, third strike. I ever stand by the statement that we will be here until the servers go down… but we’ve been here a while. It’ll hurt, but I think we can wait a bit longer. Whether Reloaded and 505 can is another story, but I think, in good conscience, this needed to be said.

 

[CZeroFive]

The goal is to address these issues in future patches. The PC patch will be going forward as planned as part of our overall goal to unify the codebases.

 

While I can't share specifics you, let's go over your points and provide some counterpoints:

 

 

After CZeroFive said that the team hadn’t begun to think about GUI changes when approaching the PC patch, it was more or less certain in my mind that we would be subjected to the console GUI. For reasons unclear to me, it is apparently not possible to fork a branch off the console code or fork a branch of the current PC code and apply the console updates to that in order to restore/maintain the PC GUI. I believe this is actually because the current Howken code uses console code that ADH initially developed and then abandoned, but that’s rank speculation.

 

Code isn't just a magical plug and play adventure, especially when it comes to Hawken. The 'PC' version of Hawken was running on an older Unreal Engine version named "Unreal 3.0". There is a second version of this codebase, with the name 'Unreal 3.5', in which Hawken was upgraded to. This provides us with the ability to use the much-superior DX11 renderer engine and allows us to have more pleasant Scaleform support. Beyond that, there are additional engine features such as HDR we can utilize in the future. Beyond that, there are a ton of crash, performance, and other such optimizations done to the engine.

 

UE3.5 is entirely updated code, and it took a LONG time for the engineers that initially had ported that code over. It is not something we can just 'swap out with the PC UI', or merge 3 years worth of code in a sane period of time.

 

With that being said, there are too many upsides to doing things the way we are doing now. There are zero upsides in porting over our changes to the PC codebase, and tons of benefits of using the new codebase.

 

Additionally, we are planning a revamp to the UI to make it more PC-friendly in future patches. This is one of our priorities, and we will be focusing on it.

 

 

In the time that Reloaded has managed Hawken’s data, there have been roughly three times as many distinct, serious database issues on the PC side, culminating in the latest round where entire accounts have gone missing. While this is a somewhat-understandable byproduct of learning a new system, their continuance is worrying. And again, new or returning players are under no obligation to be understanding. While ee have been assured that the problems will be resolved with the PC patch… well, thrice bitten, shy forever more. 

 

Database and account issues make up the vast majority of reported problems across the Reddit and Steam Forums to the point where their visibility is among the very first things that new visitors read on those low-traffic sites. This is an actively hostile environment for developing the playerbase, a concern we have heard brought up repeatedly. 

 

If there is any doubt in your minds that your database issues are resolved Reloaded, please, please, for the love of God, hire a Database Administrator on contract. I know they’re expensive (among the most expensive IT personnel to contract even) but please consider the expenditure. A DBA can, after an audit/learning period, clean up your issues, provide you with properly mapped databases, and best practices going forward.  The last of which is desperately necessary because I’m sorry “the problems were on our provider’s end” is a statement that in a professional, enterprise environment gets you terminated.

 

 

This is something beyond our control and something I am not going to go into as it involves a third party outside of us who hosted our backend.

 

However, I will mention that there have been *zero* data-loss issues since we have moved to our Postgres backend. And the one case of callsigns missing back in December was related to the PlayHawken site, not the database. We are 100% confident in our backend and there is nothing we should do to resolve this as developers. We've done all we can to resolve this issue.

 

There will be resolutions through customer support as there have always been. Going forward, we hope for this to never be an issue ever again.

 

Unfortunately, it's as hard for us as it is for you to have this happen. We hope players are understanding and we know it's problematic.

 

 

 

• Hitscan superiority: What may be balanced on console will likely not be, at all, on PC. The lackluster Kerby and stupidly high-ceiling Vytro are going to be viciously effectively on PC due to the overall better aim. The brief period I could use a XIM on Xbox gave rise to my belief that the BBY was viable on the Vanguard due to being able to out-dps anyone in the game due to my aim (spoiler: it’s not viable). Furthermore, non-hitscan mechs will suffer. This is the other half of my reasoning to remove/rework the Civ, because against a halfways competent player, its default loadout is worthless and its alternatives schizoid.
• A-class nerfs: Similar to the decision to restrict mech chassis, the decision to nerf A-class HP was an outcome based in simple ignorance of game mechanics and the unfortunate effect of a lot of high-MMR players stomping lower, less-experienced players. Sorry guys, it sucks but it’s the truth, you’re being punished for being too good and not playing down. Outside of making A-classes non-viable and C-classes even more dominating, a more long term fix would be a better, more exhaustive tutorial that people actually play through.
  • I understand that a cash-strapped company cannot prioritize the optimal enjoyment of high-tier players over the basic experience of new players and their wallets, but the current direction that Reloaded is taking is going to result in high-tier players moving towards B- and C-classes and dumpstering players even harder because, in case you haven’t noticed, the vast majority of them/us are congenitally incapable of displaying situational empathy/playing down due to a solipsistic desire to “improve,” “be the best,” and “have a bigger e-wang.” Appeals in this direction will not work and so it is incumbent upon you Reloaded, as the only party capable of making decisive, unilateral changes, to fix your fuzzy bunny

 

We have been working with the community to adjust hitbox sizes and other balance items, such as the Kerby, Ord, and Vytro.

 

We have the ability to address balance issues on the fly and expect no issues moving forward. The competitive community is vocal enough that we can easily see the three elements needed to address balance issues (data, our opinions, community opinions) and the casual community is something we hope to grow and foster so people of all gameplay types can enjoy our game.

 

The PC game is also a bit less restricted on patch cycles than consoles. Expect us to utilize that.

 

We're starting to post on the Steam forums again and will start slowly ramping up communications for when 'it's time' for the update.

 

 

 

The G2 issue is simple, and related to the above. I have been told by no less than three 2500MMR+ players that if Howken G2s make it to Hawken, that will be all they play. As base as this is, it’s pretty much all I expect from milges. While not every G2 offers game-breaking advantages, in the hands of players that already scrape every bare edge from every situation, the advantages on offer are significant. And there are game-breaking ones. G2 Brawler and Berzerker are two mechs that spring to mind in that the G2 Berzerker, even in the hands of a complete fuzzing scrublet, was a mech I was worried about on console. Also a 900HP Hawkins Brawler is, all else being equal, unkillable. Just saying. 

 

This will not initially be an issue for new players, but it will rapidly become one as more and more vets get caught up in what will be a G2 arms race, at which point I will stare into the camera, Office-style and bitterly vindictive as “I TOLD YOU SO” flashes irritatingly over the gif. 

 

Oh, and you’re gonna be called pay-to-win again, even though it is again “pay-not-to-grind” except this time worse than ever before. Someone do the math on getting a base Brawler to G2 in hours.

 

 

 We want to address the G2 issues properly. If you haven't caught up on our livestreams, we have mentioned that we want to address the issue sooner than later. We have been talking internally about the issues and hopefully will have some news to share regarding this in the near future.

 

 

None of these things have a major affective impact on players. No, there’s not a spelling mistake there. See, what Gearbox did really, really well in Borderlands was substantive visual and audio expansions to their content even while gameplay stagnated. Borderlands 2 and to a lesser extent the Pre-Sequel was successful because of the visual and audio developments that a) snared new players and b) blew existing players minds. In each case they lost “veterans” to things they didn’t like but gained new players, earning an uptick in initial sales (even if, in the case of the Pre-Sequel, they lost overall population). Now as Hawken, being a F2P game,  is never going to be a game that is going to be able to sustain itself with huge whales paying its bills, it needs those initial sales. While paintjobs, thrusters and chassis will give them something to spend their money on, the visual and auditory experience of the game will convince them to spend that money in the first place. 

 

Content is an ever-evolving medium in Hawken. We have some additional content planned that will expand the depth of the game beyond thrusters, new Mechs, and cosmetics while keeping Hawken true to its fast-paced Mech game roots. At this time, that content is still in the planning stages and we have nothing to share.

 

 

In conclusion…. Look. I’ve been working up to this in my head for a while now and it’s still kind of hard to give voice to. But in the state it is visibly in… Fuzz. Look, I know you guys are working hard on this. I know there are nitty-gritty aspects and politics I and other community members haven’t been exposed to. And I want to be clear that I do not intend to assume any sort of “voice of the community” position on this, despite my frequent pretensions. 

 

But as it stands, I cannot recommend that the PC patch go forward until the above problems are resolved. This is Hawken’s third chance. Or if you look at it another way, third strike. I ever stand by the statement that we will be here until the servers go down… but we’ve been here a while. It’ll hurt, but I think we can wait a bit longer. Whether Reloaded and 505 can is another story, but I think, in good conscience, this needed to be said.

 

We're fairly confident in the state of the build we are producing and are working on future updates to the game.

 

This isn't Hawken's 'third chance', it hasn't died out and isn't going anywhere. Hawken has changed hands a few times though, and our current development team understands more now than ever what needs to change for the game to be successful. Having tried and failed has only strengthened the people that work on this game and we are as resilient as the playerbase in achieving our goals.

 

We hope you are in it for the ride as much as we are, because we have some great plans for the game and we want you to be a part of the experience.

Edited by CZeroFive, 17 April 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Epsilon_Knight]

EDIT: unexpected dev reply rendering my response moot. Reply was super late, cell phone and crap internet, GG

ORIGINAL:

Amid, great list of concerns. I don't know how many can be changed, as a massive rework for the PC re-release is probably out of the question. Concerning G2 and P2W, I know they're not gonna halve the mechs or get rid of the web.

The GUI, while clearly a console port, isn't godawful. I doubt I'll have any trouble telling mechs apart. I'm sure the less difference between the platforms, the easier it'll be for a small team to develop on. It needs the ability to switch weapons mid-match, however.

Mech balance will probably be adjusted continuously. See also: Nief.

I think feature-wise it's nearly ready to release, bugs and balance notwithstanding, but that's not my decision.

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 17 April 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[wischatesjesus]

UE3.5 is entirely updated code, and it took a LONG time for the engineers that initially had ported that code over. It is not something we can just 'swap out with the PC UI', or merge 3 years worth of code in a sane period of time.

So why not go to 4 instead of stopping at 3.5? The primary reason I had always heard and had always repeated for not considering UE4 was that it would require porting the whole code base, but if you had to do that anyway for 3.5 it seem like you might as well go all the way.
 

This isn't Hawken's 'third chance', it hasn't died out and isn't going anywhere.

 

*counts on fingers*

 

Initial 2012 launch, Steam launch, console launch. That's 3 right? So it would be the 4th chance. All I can say is I hope it makes a good impression this time.

 

As for "not going anywhere": yeah, sure, but is it "not going anywhere" like walmart isn't going anywhere or like a disabled kid with a broken wheelchair isn't going anywhere?

 

EDIT:

 

I forgot to add, on the subject of balance, that while I appreciate close attention the player base in that regard that you should definitely let us cool down a bit and yell ourselves out on any new balance issues we see. On this balance patch I've heard comp players say things like "incinerator's lack of corner play will be a major problem for it in comp" and "you should never take hawkins on brawler because flak is just too good". Hell, we even had a rule against having multiple hellfire mechs in season 1 of TPG.

Edited by wischatesjesus, 17 April 2017 - 08:57 PM.

[Morquedeas]

Honestly the GUI isn't much of a issue for me, unless it's REALLY bad, which I doubt it is.  Doesn't effect gameplay, doesn't bother me much.  If we are unable to change our primary weapons mid match, that will be a big issue.

 

If their backend systems are fine and no one is losing their accounts, that's effectively solved.

 

Balance will be atrocious on the PC relaunch, nothing can stop that now.  Still lost as to why they decided to basically scramble the mech stats across the board rather than keep the level of balance PC Hawken had, and then move forward from there.  If anything, they probably won't be able to fix the mess UNTIL it is on the PC so we can hold their hand through the rebalancing (god forbid they try to do it without us).

 

I honestly am kind of over the G2 fiasco, yes it was a terrible idea, and I have no idea how they plan to fix it, but I think most of the vets will stop caring real quick.  As of right now, I easily have enough currency to purchase all the new mechs, and all the G2 variants of existing mechs the instant the PC relaunch occurs.  But yes, it will be bad for new player who will perceive G2 as pay to win, and giving long term players another edge over causal player is a horrific idea.

 

Some new content would defintely go a long way.  They did confirm a new map coming, "highways," which will be a big deal.  What they really need, in my opinion, is some new assets.  Weapons that are ACTUALLY new instead of just re-hashing every possible weapon combination, and fixing things like the sound of the Vytro's lightning gun would go a long ways.

 

I still think reworking the scanner would be an easy way to appease a lot of vets and make a large positive impact on the gameplay at the same time.

[ArchMech]

ANY

ATTEMPT

TO

PORT

HOWKEN

CODEBASE

TO

PC

IS

BAD

AND

YOU
SHOULD
FEEL
BAD

_more saved to a text document, to trolly to post

[dorobo]

WHEN?HOW SOON?

[SS396]

However, I will mention that there have been *zero* data-loss issues since we have moved to our Postgres backend. And the one case of callsigns missing back in December was related to the PlayHawken site, not the database. We are 100% confident in our backend and there is nothing we should do to resolve this as developers. We've done all we can to resolve this issue.
 
There will be resolutions through customer support as there have always been. Going forward, we hope for this to never be an issue ever again.

One case of missing callsigns?  Dude, people are still missing entire accounts.  About two weeks ago a player I know from 2012 tried to access his account and it simply didn't exist anymore, it looks as if it was recreated when he recently tried accessing it.  I noticed that his new account (which used the same callsign and e-mail address as his 2012 one) didn't match to his account name on my friends list even though he was online at the time.  When I tried to view his profile from my friends list I got nothing but errors.

 
How are you planning on reimbursing him and who knows how many others if there's no record of what was contained in his account that somehow RELOADED LOST?  Also how long is he expected to wait for ANY response from support??  You'd think that if you feel that situations such as this are a high priority that support would respond promptly, ie 24 hours or less.

 

This isn't Hawken's 'third chance', it hasn't died out and isn't going anywhere. Hawken has changed hands a few times though, and our current development team understands more now than ever what needs to change for the game to be successful.

Wait what?  Can you elaborate on how Hawken has changed hands a "few" times, from my calculations it went from Adhesive Games to Reloaded Games.  Yup, double checked my math and I counted once.  Is there something we don't know about?

 

 

And on another sad note, somehow I highly doubt the current development team understands now more than ever what needs to change for the game to be successful when they implement the things they have done on the console version and increased prices across the board.  In case you haven't noticed the current console version isn't much of a commercial success and simply moving it over to PC isn't going to magically achieve a different result.  

 

I predict a shitstorm of disappointed veterans the day the patch finally comes out, if it ever does.

 

[CZeroFive]

One case of missing callsigns?  Dude, people are still missing entire accounts.  About two weeks ago a player I know from 2012 tried to access his account and it simply didn't exist anymore, it looks as if it was recreated when he recently tried accessing it.  I noticed that his new account (which used the same callsign and e-mail address as his 2012 one) didn't match to his account name on my friends list even though he was online at the time.  When I tried to view his profile from my friends list I got nothing but errors.

 

I predict a shitstorm of disappointed veterans the day the patch finally comes out, if it ever does.

 

One case of missing callsigns and it wasn't the database's fault. Our provider had a database failure right before the data migration happened. Sorry if that is confusing.

 

 

And on another sad note, somehow I highly doubt the current development team understands now more than ever what needs to change for the game to be successful when they implement the things they have done on the console version and increased prices across the board.  In case you haven't noticed the current console version isn't much of a commercial success and simply moving it over to PC isn't going to magically achieve a different result.

 

When was the last time you played Hawken, PC or Console?

Do you have access to the same information that we do analytics wise?

How do you know it's a success or a failure?

 

I know the answers to all of those, so don't answer them.

 

 

 

ANY

ATTEMPT

TO

PORT

HOWKEN

CODEBASE

TO

PC

IS

BAD

AND

YOU
SHOULD
FEEL
BAD

_more saved to a text document, to trolly to post

 

Thanks for the criticism, but it helps if you have a point to argue. Kind of helps your case.
 

 

So why not go to 4 instead of stopping at 3.5? The primary reason I had always heard and had always repeated for not considering UE4 was that it would require porting the whole code base, but if you had to do that anyway for 3.5 it seem like you might as well go all the way.

 

 

UE4 isn't a simple upgrade. It's a fundamental change of how the engine works and operates. Nothing could be salvaged. It'd be a whole new game, essentially, and remaking the existing, failing game in UE4 would not be profitable.

 

WHEN?HOW SOON?

 

 

We're already on the polish/bugfixing part of the game update, and after that comes QA. Then after that comes the formal QA process, and then we launch it. I refuse to give you a date, but generally that's the information you have to know.

Edited by CZeroFive, 18 April 2017 - 01:37 AM.

[crockrocket]

Perhaps, due to certain issues such as UI being planned for future patches, don't call it a relaunch. And don't hype it as such. Just do this first patch and save the fanfare for actual launch (leave the beta tag for now).

 

I realize that might be outside the scope of possibility given politics internally and between companies. However, I think this allows for some mistakes without giving you a "third strike".

[Xer06siX]

I just wanna go fast and smash other Mechs. 

 

A classes FTW.

 

I'm happy with that. 

 

Maybe a little more atmospheric and weapon effects. MOAR smoke in the smoke trails, improved explosive particles? It's already fun as hell but could be more visceral looking.

[Epsilon_Knight]

Is anyone else just seriously excited we get an update after all these years? There'll be some balance issues, but holy fuzz, new mechs, new internals, new map, voice comms (love it or hate it, it is a staple of modern FPS). And the population will get a bump.

It'll be a little bit messy, but I'm fuzzing excited!

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 18 April 2017 - 02:24 AM.

[coldform]

Is anyone else just seriously excited we get an update after all these years? There'll be some balance issues, but holy fuzz, new mechs, new internals, new map, voice comms (love it or hate it, it is a staple of modern FPS). And the population will get a bump.

It'll be a little bit messy, but I'm fuzzing excited!

It feels good. it really does. I'm excited for them to actually get a new version of hawken out to us.

 

then we'll see some new stuff.  I'm hoping for more solid net stuff - like shots actually landing and crisp, clean oblique dodges, all display in glorious detail

 

maybe ranked play? the return of private servers? TPG HAWKEN S4!!!???

 

I'm so buzzed about that right now.

[claisolais]

Is anyone else just seriously excited we get an update after all these years? There'll be some balance issues, but holy fuzz, new mechs, new internals, new map, voice comms (love it or hate it, it is a staple of modern FPS). And the population will get a bump.

It'll be a little bit messy, but I'm fuzzing excited!

Im more afraid than excited. It's like knowing this is going to be a second Ascension. C05's reply also, bring me much of fear regarding the incoming update. G2 issue seems has not been addressed. And that line with "success"? It feels like konami playing their money from mobile games, call it a "success".

[Epsilon_Knight]

Im more afraid than excited. It's like knowing this is going to be a second Ascension. C05's reply also, bring me much of fear regarding the incoming update. G2 issue seems has not been addressed. And that line with "success"? It feels like konami playing their money from mobile games, call it a "success".

For what it's worth, Ascension was a pretty substantial adjustment in a time when the game had a fuzzload more concurrent users. There was a lot more to lose. G2 issue apparently will be addressed at some point according to czero, but even if not short term, it's hard to for me to see the patch as overall negative. I think most of us who are still playing are in till the end, like Amid said. I don't see us having fewer players after the patch.

[_Andrea_]

Lets all Hope for best and Good luck to you CzeroFive and team, Bring us renewed joy of hawken.

 

I just want to mention that i think Players skill balance still sucks and its most important part rather than UI and Mechanics for the start i guess.

I am not exactly technical person but i would like to know is this possible to limit Mech category per match which may help game balance maybe?

for Eg. Siege only 2 mech of each category allowed  with 2 light weight 2 heavy and 2 medium 

 

there will be too many opposition to my question/ suggestion in community so i just want to be clear that i am just concentrating on game balance no other point 

[Flight1ess]

Amid you never cease to amaze me 

[Miscellaneous]

Perhaps, due to certain issues such as UI being planned for future patches, don't call it a relaunch. And don't hype it as such. Just do this first patch and save the fanfare for actual launch (leave the beta tag for now).

 

I realize that might be outside the scope of possibility given politics internally and between companies. However, I think this allows for some mistakes without giving you a "third strike".

 

I'd agree with this wholeheartedly. You don't want to offer out the game as a grand relaunch if it's got it's fair share of issues as it does at the moment.

 

I'd say, just for now, let this first update fly under the radar, see how things go, and then do a proper "relaunch" when the UI is up to scratch, and other things like -  for example - the high likelihood of wonky balance on the new mechs gets ironed out. 

[TangledMantis]

For what it's worth, Ascension was a pretty substantial adjustment in a time when the game had a fuzzload more concurrent users. There was a lot more to lose. G2 issue apparently will be addressed at some point according to czero, but even if not short term, it's hard to for me to see the patch as overall negative. I think most of us who are still playing are in till the end, like Amid said. I don't see us having fewer players after the patch.

 

Just like current players are going to get to keep their unbalanced and custom chassis mechs through the relaunch, maybe we can run out and buy all the overpowered unbalanced G2s and get to keep their loadouts when they patch the game later on. People arent going to spend HC/MC on mechs only to have them removed. 

 

I know im customizing all my favorite mechs on my accounts ahead of relaunch simply because I know I wont be able to afterwards. Maybe the same will go for mechs we purchase that they may want to change later.

[Epsilon_Knight]

Just like current players are going to get to keep their unbalanced and custom chassis mechs through the relaunch, maybe we can run out and buy all the overpowered unbalanced G2s and get to keep their loadouts when they patch the game later on. People arent going to spend HC/MC on mechs only to have them removed.

I know im customizing all my favorite mechs on my accounts ahead of relaunch simply because I know I wont be able to afterwards. Maybe the same will go for mechs we purchase that they may want to change later.

I'm not sure keeping old mechs is much of a problem anymore. As long as the old mech has the current stats. The examples that come to mind are SMC vanguard (looks like this will be an additional weapon on G1 and G2 Vanguard after all), which will have 40 less HP and slower boost speed than its BBY/miniflak/Vulcan/SMC! G2 brethren, and the flak scout (new scout has identical weapons, just starts with HEAT instead of miniflak, so this isn't a veterans-only thing), which will have slower boost and 30% higher dodge cooldown compared to G2.  You might want to hold on to that HC, it looks like there won't be any mech/weapon combos you can't currently get, besides gren with bouncy rev gl + GL?

Cosmetics aren't a huge concern, as they don't appear to affect the hitbox at all, though they could just port all purchased cosmetics to the correct chassis, refund MC paid for default chassis (not that much mc), and call it done. Bit of an undertaking, I won't be bothered either way.

The HC grind is real for players who join today. The G2 stuff only slightly aggravates the problem. It's 5000 HC for a G2 Recruit, which is accessible once G1 is maxed. Old players are going to have superiority here for a few weeks at most. We've been playing Hawken, we've got the HC, and a new player joining today would have to grind or cope with the fact they can't switch into the entire selection of mechs today, too. G2 is an irritant to this, and CzeroFive said they have plans to alleviate it. Most new players will be able to buy a G2 pretty quick, though.

And instead of the generalization of doom and gloom due to old mech parts, could you tell me specifically which "old mech" combo you're worried about ruining the game?

Also, as to the irrational fear of people buying G2 stuff right away and keeping it identical following a later nerf, I can already cite precedent: Nief. The G2s or any new mech might get adjusted, tough titties. See also: Hawken Steam Patch. ADH took no prisoners there. This community should be familiar with adjustments. Where RLD and 505 seem to be trying to keep some old players happy by preserving mech/weapon combos, they've had zero issue re-tuning anything they've added to the game. I wouldn't even complain if they removed the incompatible weapons from old mechs, but I'm sure they're worried about the reaction. Regardless, precedent regarding G2/new mechs makes this specific fear seem silly.

Edited by Epsilon_Knight, 18 April 2017 - 11:57 AM.

[ReversusRex]

Hey CZeroFive, can you share any more specifics about what the team is planning for G2 mechs? I think the general sentiment among players around here is that G2s as explicit upgrades are a no-no, but from a revenue-making standpoint it makes sense to stratify the options. Curious to see what sort of moves you guys are making to find a middle-ground.

 

Games like Warframe and Titanfall have "prime" versions of their mechs/chassis that sell for real money but are entirely cosmetic upgrades. Maybe G2s could be changed along the same vein with some new exclusive "G2 elite bundle" that comes with a mech-specific pilot emblem, special chassis, taunt, and thrusters.

 

What I've seen suggested a lot around here that sounds like a pretty compelling reason for even vets to invest more time and money is making the G2 mechs be designed to cater to "niche play-styles", or otherwise be made into distinct mechs like the first G2 mechs on PC. Even minor stat tweaks and customized weapons (XT), bundled with unique "elite G2" cosmetic bundles, could go a long way toward bolstering the perceived amount of content the game has.

Edited by ReversusRex, 18 April 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[TheFrostnessMonster]

It's been so long since I've played this game,  I've lost a lot of my emotional investment in it.  I just hope everything works out.

[EM1O]

Lets all Hope for best and Good luck to you CzeroFive and team, Bring us renewed joy of hawken.

 

I just want to mention that i think Players skill balance still sucks and its most important part rather than UI and Mechanics for the start i guess.

I am not exactly technical person but i would like to know is this possible to limit Mech category per match which may help game balance maybe?

for Eg. Siege only 2 mech of each category allowed  with 2 light weight 2 heavy and 2 medium 

 

there will be too many opposition to my question/ suggestion in community so i just want to be clear that i am just concentrating on game balance no other point 

o dear, NO!  some of the best matches i've ever been in were single-category/chassis battles!  one of my most favorites was 6 Techs vs 6 Rocketeers Origin Siege.  the Techs won.

[6ixxer]

I know im customizing all my favorite mechs on my accounts ahead of relaunch simply because I know I wont be able to afterwards.

I had MC to spend so I spent it all.
Wasn't sure if I'd have much variety after the relaunch.

If I like the look of new mechs that get released on/after relaunch then I might grab some more premium currency.
I don't have time to grind, but trust me that 'paying doesn't make me win' :p

[SS396]

One case of missing callsigns and it wasn't the database's fault. Our provider had a database failure right before the data migration happened. Sorry if that is confusing.

How does this situation you bring up about one case of missing callsigns relate to a number of players from prior years having their contents of their accounts completely wiped? Why have you decided to conveniently ignore and fail to respond to the specific situation brought up in my post?

If you played a game by another developer, spending time and money on it for customizations and content.  Then a new company takes ownership and in the meantime somehow loses ALL of your account data.  Then you contacted their support about the issue and receive absolutely ZERO response after 2+ weeks (not even an automated reply), would that be acceptable to you?  Would that sort of treatment steer you away from anything remotely connected to the development company in the future?

 

Even Vanashinkaku a former programmer of Hawken who worked for Adhesive Games had his account wiped.  One quick look in the PC technical support section shows an alarming number of these sorts of situations on the first two pages.  I'm sure you noticed and read each and every one of them because a majority of them were caught in the spam filter and you had to allow it through when you verified it wasn't a case of spam.

 

When was the last time you played Hawken, PC or Console?

3/19/2017 on PC thats when, but you already knew that when you asked right?  

 

Not sure why you think that is relevant when the PC game hasn't updated the entire time Reloaded has owned it.  What new content was I missing out on by not playing in the last month??  Oh thats right, I already knew the answer to that, nobody has missed out on anything new on the PC in the last two years.

 

Also, you foolishly assume I haven't played Hawken on console and I assure you I have thoroughly experienced that disappointment, you simply don't have the means to link me to an account that I don't access from the same places I access PC Hawken from.  But try again to establish that I don't play the game so my opinion isn't valid.  
 

Do you have access to the same information that we do analytics wise?

No, and I don't need any of it either.  There is plenty of publicly available information on other websites like SteamDB or even at https://www.playhawk...m/server-status

 

How do you know it's a success or a failure?

Thats the easiest one to answer, dwindling player numbers across all platforms.  Its funny how the analytics are unneeded to identify that.

 

I know the answers to all of those, so don't answer them.

Why ask someone questions if you don't want a response from that person?  I ask specific questions because I want you to respond and truthfully answer EACH and EVERY one of the questions I ask.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

There is a point to be made about peoples whose accounts were screwed up that really never received a response or acknowledgement to their tickets.

[Nept]

It's nice seeing a developer respond promptly to player concerns.  Can't say I disagree with Amid's sentiment, though. 

 

Balance issues are kinda whatever: veteran players won't immediately abandon ship, and newer players won't be able to tell the difference.  We'll be fine assuming Reloaded seeks feedback outside their (scary good) playtester pool.

 

I'm more concerned about the UI and the lack of maps.  If the patch gets any publicity, that playschool UI's going to be the first thing a lot of people see.  And nobody outside this small forum cares whether Reloaded has legitimate excuses for its appearance.

Edited by Nept, 18 April 2017 - 07:34 PM.

[dorobo]

If all the vets would took up harder not op mechs there might be some balance achieved.. Nah! probably not.

[coldform]

If all the vets would took up harder not op mechs there might be some balance achieved.. Nah! probably not.

It's not really the mechs - most of the better players playing right now can hop in any mech and still do well.  The game still rewards proper usage of the fundamental skills - landing shots and not getting hit.

[_Andrea_]

o dear, NO!  some of the best matches i've ever been in were single-category/chassis battles!  one of my most favorites was 6 Techs vs 6 Rocketeers Origin Siege.  the Techs won.

I had another experience. 6 predator vs 6 snipers no one in AA just predator pubs in AA and snipers doesn't let any predator get in AA  , i wish i would have recorded that match.

[EMEUTIER]

One case of missing callsigns and it wasn't the database's fault. Our provider had a database failure right before the data migration happened. Sorry if that is confusing.

 

 

When was the last time you played Hawken, PC or Console?

Do you have access to the same information that we do analytics wise?

How do you know it's a success or a failure?

 

I know the answers to all of those, so don't answer them.

 

 

Wow... Just WOW.....

 

This game is doomed if this is the response we get from a Dev. That is seriously one terrible attitude you have there, not only did you ignore the point made about the accounts that were wiped but you acted like a snotty-nosed brat towards the OP.

 

Just because the players are (justifiably) upset and tend to be brash in some comments, should a person in your position ever stoop to acting like a child, and the fact that you did speaks volumes about your lack of commitment to the Hawken community and the game in general.

[DerMax]

Wow... Just WOW.....

 

This game is doomed if this is the response we get from a Dev. That is seriously one terrible attitude you have there, not only did you ignore the point made about the accounts that were wiped but you acted like a snotty-nosed brat towards the OP.

 

Just because the players are (justifiably) upset and tend to be brash in some comments, should a person in your position ever stoop to acting like a child, and the fact that you did speaks volumes about your lack of commitment to the Hawken community and the game in general.

You are completely out of the loop, and you didn't even bother to read the comment this was a reply to, or at least you didn't pay much attention. SS396's comment is pure, undistillated, uninformed trash that would infuriate any dev or any person for that matter. He questions the dev team's competence in a rather toxic way, without knowing anything about what they have achieved so far, what they do and do not know, and so on and so forth.

 

c05's great attitude is the best thing to have happened to the game since the Steam release.

 

Now, here's your line:

 

 

 

and the fact that you did speaks volumes about your lack of commitment to the Hawken community and the game in general.

 

Take it back right now. Lack of commitment my ass. Makes my blood boil.

[CZeroFive]

Wow... Just WOW.....
 
This game is doomed if this is the response we get from a Dev. That is seriously one terrible attitude you have there, not only did you ignore the point made about the accounts that were wiped but you acted like a snotty-nosed brat towards the OP.
 
Just because the players are (justifiably) upset and tend to be brash in some comments, should a person in your position ever stoop to acting like a child, and the fact that you did speaks volumes about your lack of commitment to the Hawken community and the game in general.

 
I answered the question, and provided counterpoints to a community member that is making the basis of facts on assumptions. There was data loss on the backend and we are working through resolving the issue through customer support. If there was a magic wand that could address every instance of data loss instantly, trust me, we would use it. This takes time, money, and effort to resolve. We've rolled out a script that attempts to fix accounts as best as we can. (https://community.pl...g-items-status/) This is a nightmare scenario for us and unfortunately one that we have to live with.
  
The team at large has spent countless hours on bugfixes, polish, addressing concerns, interacting with the community and has provided mediums to interact with the development team through a public facing figure. To be quite blunt, I am a programmer and my time is better suited elsewhere. I could choose to keep you all in the dark and just do what's in my job description but I do not think that is fair to the greater community.

The misinformation campaign, personal attacks, cyberstalking, and other such behavior exhibited by certain vocal community members against our team and company has got to stop. Forgive me if I am a bit brash in my reply.
 
There will be no further discussion of this, and this is not the subject matter of this topic. Keep it on topic.

Edited by CZeroFive, 19 April 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[wischatesjesus]

I'm curious what people think about what kind of aesthetic rules new stuff (menus included) should adhere to. I remember Hawken's distinct soviet-factory type look being a talking point in many early reviews of the game, but is it worth trying to stick to that now that the old art team is gone? Does the visual and audio improvement Amid mentioned in the OP need to be "same but better" or can it go in a different direction?

Edited by wischatesjesus, 19 April 2017 - 09:47 AM.

[DerMax]

I'm curious what people think about what kind of aesthetic rules new stuff (menus included) should adhere to. I remember Hawken's distinct soviet-factory type look being a talking point in many early reviews of the game, but is it worth trying to stick to that now that the old art team is gone? Does the visual and audio improvement Amid mentioned in the OP need to be "same but better" or can it go in a different direction?

Different people have different opinions, and you can't cater to everyone. Some like cyberpunkish, some like futuristic and lasery, some like dark and atmospheric etc. I think ultimately it is the designer who will have to decide what is best for this game.

[Charcoal]

I'm curious what people think about what kind of aesthetic rules new stuff (menus included) should adhere to. I remember Hawken's distinct soviet-factory type look being a talking point in many early reviews of the game, but is it worth trying to stick to that now that the old art team is gone? Does the visual and audio improvement Amid mentioned in the OP need to be "same but better" or can it go in a different direction?

I can imagine that a contrasting look might add some visual interest, but I'm not a game designer

It'd be nice to see 'Soviet Kitbashers' look vs 'Sleek Drift Car Stylee' even just as skins, in a fight

Edited by Charcoal, 19 April 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[WmMoneyFrmMissouri]

I answered the question, and provided counterpoints to a community member that is making the basis of facts on assumptions. There was data loss on the backend and we are working through resolving the issue through customer support. If there was a magic wand that could address every instance of data loss instantly, trust me, we would use it. This takes time, money, and effort to resolve. We've rolled out a script that attempts to fix accounts as best as we can. (https://community.pl...g-items-status/) This is a nightmare scenario for us and unfortunately one that we have to live with.

The team at large has spent countless hours on bugfixes, polish, addressing concerns, interacting with the community and has provided mediums to interact with the development team through a public facing figure. To be quite blunt, I am a programmer and my time is better suited elsewhere. I could choose to keep you all in the dark and just do what's in my job description but I do not think that is fair to the greater community.

The misinformation campaign, personal attacks, cyberstalking, and other such behavior exhibited by certain vocal community members against our team and company has got to stop. Forgive me if I am a bit brash in my reply.

There will be no further discussion of this, and this is not the subject matter of this topic. Keep it on topic.

Thank you again for your efforts. Passionate people sometimes bubble over. Good news is at least you know we care. All I can say is I'll be playing today as soon as I'm off work to the detriment of Evaed's and Valon's KD.

Edited by WmMoneyFrmMissouri, 19 April 2017 - 10:35 AM.

[EM1O]

what we may result in having is a different sort of animal for a playerbase.  if howken is moderately succesful at relaunch, players that newly join, players that blend into this new group (the remains of the vets who don't go "meh" and bail) will be that new playerbase.

i suspect there also will be an almost violently psychotic transformation of the overall "personality" of these forums as well.  it might take a while, but both game and forums will likely mature into something RLD-sculpted, and not just an ADH product juiced up and made Better.

and,

here it comes,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Soon TM

Edited by EM1O, 19 April 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[dorobo]

I'm curious what people think about what kind of aesthetic rules new stuff (menus included) should adhere to. I remember Hawken's distinct soviet-factory type look being a talking point in many early reviews of the game, but is it worth trying to stick to that now that the old art team is gone? Does the visual and audio improvement Amid mentioned in the OP need to be "same but better" or can it go in a different direction?

 

There was  a reason they picked that style. I don't want to come back to exact same thing but im against polished shinny sci-fi'sh cod type thing. For once there's just too much of that already in every other game. I think it should reflect mechs/lore. Here this pic trasnlate that into Menu screens. Plenty of textures in there right? Use it as a starting point! Make it some sort of a console for a hawken technician dude from garage. Idk. Dermax is right too. I would probably make anything into dystopian trashy gasmask hehe   so yeah. Signing out.

EDIT: but current PC ui is still much better than console version :P

Edited by dorobo, 19 April 2017 - 11:02 PM.

[Gueber]

Nobody likes the console UI so its going to change but for now it is what it is. Just photo shop your own UI into your mind and pretend that is what you see..

 

 

Is this to scale?

Edited by Gueber, 19 April 2017 - 11:32 PM.