44 replies to this topic

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

(Ok... I searched before I posted to don't flame me too hard if I am duplicating)

 

Ok... so cars/trucks/minivans/etc have had rear facing cameras in them for years now. And before that we had rear view mirrors that gave us some (semi-obstructed) view. Heck, my new-to-me truck even has a forward facing camera when it came from the factory!

 

Sooooo... how about a *functional* rear view "mirror" or camera for my mech? I don't care if its an internal or a purchasable upgrade or what ever.

 

Some of you will say "radar tells you they are behind you" and I agree but it doesn't give you more details than "behind" where as a "mirror" would tell you if there are any obstructions or if they are at ground level (in the view of the "mirror")  or if they are up above you (Radar says behind you, "mirror" is empty.)

 

And to further bolster my point, do a google image search for "fighter cockpit mirror". You will see plenty of example of "modern" fighter jets that have rear view mirrors in addition to their sophisticated radar and flight controls. (This picture of an F/A-18 has three, one top and two sides)

 

Lastly... as has been mentioned in other threads, I can then also hang my physiX fuzzy dice from them!

[AsianJoyKiller]

It'd make for a cool little detail on the dash of your mech.

EDIT: I'll just point out, my Subaru has a review camera. This is fast becoming standard technology on economy-class vehicles. It'd be nice to think that fictional future-people have the common sense to do such things.

Edited by AsianJoyKiller, 14 April 2015 - 08:35 AM.

[(P:B)Augmentia]

This is what we need. Rear view mirror, where have you been all my life? The only problem I can see with this is some massive changes in gameplay as well as the scout becomes less effective. All mechs should have a blind spot, so I think the rear view mirror is counter-intuitive to this point. While I would like it and want it, logic dictates that the mirror makes no sense.

[CraftyDus]

As a CDL holder, I would solidly approve with appropriate gratitude some mirrors, an air horn, and a decently audible back-up alarm.

 

 

either that or this other game needs pvp mode

Spoiler

[KOS_Baconman]

this is impossible because you would just see the back of the inside of your cockpit, there would need to be a window of some sort on the back of mechs for this to function properly

[DerMax]

This would make flanking much less effective, and infils' and preds' abilites would become even worse.

 

Also, we discussed this at least two times on the old forums, and both times the community answered with a resounding "NO!" to the suggestion.

[CraftyDus]

This would make flanking much less effective, and infils' and preds' abilites would become even worse.

 

Also, we discussed this at least two times on the old forums, and both times the community answered with a resounding "NO!" to the suggestion.

 

betchu'dluvadashcamthoamirite

[AsianJoyKiller]

either that or this other game needs pvp mode

Spoiler

That'd basically be Spintires with a incompetent teammate. The few times I've tried multiplayer Spintires, I've ended up screwed over by teammates more often than myself or tricky environments.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

this is impossible because you would just see the back of the inside of your cockpit, there would need to be a window of some sort on the back of mechs for this to function properly

 

Interesting point, once I upped my graphics card I noticed some aspects of the cockpit view that seemed to indicate that we aren't actually looking out a windscreen but instead its almost like a projection on a wall or monitors with defects in them. I know this is semi contrary to the "cracking" in your view that happens when your armor is significantly low but that could be attributed to the camera/projector lenses being cracked. This would also make sense that you would want armored front, not just a huge screen of (bullet/bomb) proof glass.

 

But the reality is that you wouldn't need a window, just a rear facing camera with a little screen or projection. (Same as your backup cameras in your cars work today.) The idea of the "mirror" was just an oversimplification not a statement that we had to use "reflective glass".

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

This would make flanking much less effective, and infils' and preds' abilites would become even worse.

 

Also, we discussed this at least two times on the old forums, and both times the community answered with a resounding "NO!" to the suggestion.

 

Both these points are valid but are rebutted by the concept of evolution in gameplay for any game lest it become stagnant.

 

1) I am not saying you should get a panoramic 360* view at this point (even though it should be possible using cameras and projection given the "futuristic concept" of the game).

2) I mentioned this could be an Item or Internal so not everyone got it.

3) It could be a "look over your shoulder" concept where you had to hit a button any your entire view changed to a rear view. (Similar to looking over your shoulder when driving a car before changing lanes.)

4) If done right, the only time it would "affect" a pred or infil as far as flanking would be if you were standing RIGHT BEHIND a mech on the same level when someone happened to be looking. (Probably because you are shooting them which kinda gives your "flanking" away.)

5) Just because this wasn't a good idea in the "old days" doesn't mean it doesn't doesn't deserve to be revisited.

6) Just because it didn't fit into Adhesive/Meteor vision of the game doesn't mean that it won't fit into Reloaded's vision of the game.

 

For my last two bullets I want to point to the Mech-Fu thread. That was something that Adhesive/Meteor "blessed" in the old days but is generally (50.00000001%) agreed upon doesn't work in the current state of the game. As a community there is a huge rift between the "Sim" and the "Arena" players as Hawken attracts both. Adhesive/Meteor tried to walk the knife-edge between the two for better or for worse. So we need to be continuously revisiting ideas as the "makes sense" metric changes over time.

 

I'd also like to point out that some preliminary research conducted recently has indicated some of the things that had "resounding answers" may not have been so clear cut: https://community.pl...ctive-opinions/

Edited by oSPANNERo, 14 April 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[Neraste]

When I started playing Hawken, I was quite surprised there was nothing to watch your back (as a vehicle and as a military device). I got used to this, but if you ask me right now to design a mech, I'd include a rear optic system (but still: it's a game, with voluntary limitations, adaptations and simplifications to keep it fun).

 

This could change many aspects in fight, but I'd be curious of the result.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Interesting point, once I upped my graphics card I noticed some aspects of the cockpit view that seemed to indicate that we aren't actually looking out a windscreen but instead its almost like a projection on a wall or monitors with defects in them. I know this is semi contrary to the "cracking" in your view that happens when your armor is significantly low but that could be attributed to the camera/projector lenses being cracked. This would also make sense that you would want armored front, not just a huge screen of (bullet/bomb) proof glass.

 

But the reality is that you wouldn't need a window, just a rear facing camera with a little screen or projection. (Same as your backup cameras in your cars work today.) The idea of the "mirror" was just an oversimplification not a statement that we had to use "reflective glass".

Adhesive stated on multiple occasions that mechs didn't have windows. What you see is screens.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Adhesive stated on multiple occasions that mechs didn't have windows. What you see is screens.

 

Color me a slow learner then! Thanks for the confirmation. :)

 

So yeah... "Rear View Camera" then... that happens to look like a rear view mirror... with fuzzy dice!

[Nov8tr]

Yes, yes, yes and yes. Did I mention yes? This would so awesome I would be willing to do the happy feet dance (old SNL Steve Martin routine) if they would give us one. Yes radar works but my car has a rear view mirror, trucks do, my old speed boat did, planes even do. That would add so much to the game. Situational awareness in the game is critical sometimes when you are fighting 3, 4, 5, even 6 people at one time. It would be amazing to be able to actually see who and what is behind you. At this point I'd even take a big warning saying BEHIND YOU BONEHEAD! Even that would be nice, but a mirror would be 10X better!

 

***EDIT***  Just wanted to be sure I mentioned YES. I did say YES right? And yeah I know it's really a screen but I'm gonna pretend it's a mirror. :D

Edited by Nov8tr, 14 April 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

[Volgraza]

May I recommend a Proximity to the wall detector instead of a mirror. Sensor will not pick up Mechs only the wall. I can't tell you how many times I've turned to Make a tactical retreat when I find myself getting cozy with the wall behind me and then Cozy with the Sabot rounds filling my back side up. There could just be an indicator, Like a red light on the Dash maybe a top view of the Mech with four lights around it that change color depending on how close you are to the wall. 

Edited by Volgraza, 15 April 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

Edited by oSPANNERo, 15 April 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[BariumBlue]

The golden paradigm is 'easy to learn, hard to master'.

 

A rearview mirror would make it 'harder to learn, easier to master'. You lose the ability to flank, surprise, and reposition, in exchange for not much more info.

 

I wouldn't mind as much, if the maps included more verticality, allowing more attacks from above and below, but the maps are fairly limited in verticality, oftentimes in a ungraceful, invisible fashion.

 

----

 

As a side, where would your rearview mirror be looking when you look up?

[PepeKenobi]

I've been talking with a friend of mine who knows on coding and told me that this feature would eat a lot of precious resources (processing).

 

So it would be cool but... unlikely in our opinion.

[(Unknown)1590d2c747fabd]

The golden paradigm is 'easy to learn, hard to master'.

 

A rearview mirror would make it 'harder to learn, easier to master'.  <SNIP>

 

Interesting point. I will certainly contemplate it but not sure I agree with the latter half... but might be convinced.

 

 

<SNIP>

 

As a side, where would your rearview mirror be looking when you look up?

 

IMHO: The ground... my original suggestion was a fixed rear view camera. I suppose you could "control" it but that would need to be manual and would add a TON of complexity

 

 

I've been talking with a friend of mine who knows on coding and told me that this feature would eat a lot of precious resources (processing).

 

<SNIP>

 

I am going to assume you mean "processing resources" like RAM and CPU. If so Possibly vaild depending on how modularized the code is and what platform/framework they are using. Also depends on where that "processing resource" is actually consuming. Hawken was originally developed in 2012 and really hasn't seen much in the way of resource consumption growth in the past 12-ish months. (Making an educated inference on that point.) With the advent and normalization of cloud resources, if this overhead is added to the game hosting server it would possibly not be considered "significant". If the overhead is added on the client side... Hawken doesn't even come close to making my gaming rig even turn up the fan speed much less max out my resources. Given modern gaming rigs (even a good one built in 2012) I don't think we are lacking "processing resources" on the client side.

 

If you meant "development resources" its a bit of a different story and depends if Hawken PM's (like Tiggs and Josh) think it will drive "Adoption and Expansion" over other items.

[PepeKenobi]

I am going to assume you mean "processing resources" like RAM and CPU. If so Possibly vaild depending on how modularized the code is and what platform/framework they are using. Also depends on where that "processing resource" is actually consuming. Hawken was originally developed in 2012 and really hasn't seen much in the way of resource consumption growth in the past 12-ish months. (Making an educated inference on that point.) With the advent and normalization of cloud resources, if this overhead is added to the game hosting server it would possibly not be considered "significant". If the overhead is added on the client side... Hawken doesn't even come close to making my gaming rig even turn up the fan speed much less max out my resources. Given modern gaming rigs (even a good one built in 2012) I don't think we are lacking "processing resources" on the client side.

 

If you meant "development resources" its a bit of a different story and depends if Hawken PM's (like Tiggs and Josh) think it will drive "Adoption and Expansion" over other items.

 

--

 

Yes, game ticks. Basically processor, IMHO.

 

That's partially why the 180� air turn is so much appreciated on the battlefield (too). And radar, and scanners, and so forth. Not a priority, IMHO. Would be cool though? Yesh

[Panzermanathod]

Despite situations where I might have needed it, I'm leaning towards not adding a rear view camera in. Your team should have your back, and stealthy guys should be able to do stealthy things.

 

Also, for those who say that they should have rear view mirrors for "realism"... Technician heal beam, Incinerator heat absorb, infinite ammo, Teabagging taunt, taunts in general, no friendly fire in general, overheating both weapons by using only one, EU, Yeti's...

 

Using the "for realism" argument just seems silly to me.

[PepeKenobi]

You may use the Force too

 

[nepacaka]

c'mon guys, we all know how stupid it is. better go and create some topics about return "rangefinder" from old crosshair...

 

Edited by nepacaka, 21 April 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Nov8tr]

The only resources you would "use" would be a graphics call to your GPU and some CPU. BUT it would be very tiny and almost imperceptible to all but the lowest end of computers given the fact the "mirror" would be a tiny little screen up top in the center of the screen. It could be easily turned off or on at will like "blur" or any other option we have. It could be done simpler by a "collision warning" system. Or a enemy Mech behind you flashing warning system.  "WARNING MECH BEHIND" So I don't really consider that a factor. I still say it would be a good function to implement.

Edited by Nov8tr, 21 April 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[Isaac_Shepard]

brilliant!

[AsianJoyKiller]

The only resources you would "use" would be a graphics call to your GPU and some CPU. BUT it would be very tiny and almost imperceptible to all but the lowest end of computers given the fact the "mirror" would be a tiny little screen up top in the center of the screen. It could be easily turned off or on at will like "blur" or any other option we have. It could be done simpler by a "collision warning" system. Or a enemy Mech behind you flashing warning system.  "WARNING MECH BEHIND" So I don't really consider that a factor. I still say it would be a good function to implement.

If you take a look at various car racing games, you can see that some don't have rear view mirrors that act like actual 2nd screens. They feature simplified representations of cars and a basic background.

 

That would be another option.

[MomOw]

I don't get the point of that suggestion as IMHO radar and s+shift does do the job !?

[AsianJoyKiller]

I don't get the point of that suggestion as IMHO radar and s+shift does do the job !?

Ideally we wouldn't have this stupidly powerful radar, but even so radar doesn't show everything. With a fully functional rear view you could even see things like terrain, which doesn't show up on radar clearly, or friendly units behind you, because it's near impossible to identify the exact proximity of them via radar.

 

And comparing the 180 (which takes a significant amount of time to do, removes control for the duration, and can't be utilized while engaged with a target in front of you) to a quick glance in a rear view? You can't be serious, right?

[WillyW]

Ideally we wouldn't have this stupidly powerful radar, but even so radar doesn't show everything. With a fully functional rear view you could even see things like terrain, which doesn't show up on radar clearly, or friendly units behind you, because it's near impossible to identify the exact proximity of them via radar.

 

And comparing the 180 (which takes a significant amount of time to do, removes control for the duration, and can't be utilized while engaged with a target in front of you) to a quick glance in a rear view? You can't be serious, right?

 

While I agree the 180 is not comparable to having a rear view, I disagree with your comment regarding proximity via radar. After playing for a while, I don't find the radar limiting at all, especially for proximity. I can easily jump around a corner and know exactly where someone is. However, its not as easy when it comes to mechs behind you. I think it is easy enough for the cloaked mechs to sneak up on people, and a rear-view would not interrupt that. As long as everything has a counter, there will be balance.

P.S. I think a good suggestion would be to have the rear-view camera be temporarily disabled when you get hit by an EMP.

Edited by WillyW, 23 April 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[MomOw]

I meant radar check plus 180 allows you to quickly get what's behind and shooting at you, not that each of these replaces a rear view.

[PepeKenobi]

What comes to my mind when we're talking about this would basically be a rear mirror as the one seen in the cockpit of that mech seen in the AVATAR movie. Isn't it?

 

Would be cool, I've to admit it. Maybe in the future. Instead, I'd love to see integrated health bars and so forth in the many cockpits for each of the mechs first. And once implemented that, imho, then the rear mirror if possible. Why not

 

Note: Placed on top of the cockpit?   And BTW, the radar integrated in the cockpits would be awesome as well...

 

Just my 2 cents again.

[PepeKenobi]

Anyway, if someday the rear mirror is implemented in the game I'd suggest to make it retractile. I mean, allow users to display it or not on your hud (via shortcut or game settings...), due that many might feel distracted, etc because of it. You know what i mean.

 

Note ::: Speaking of the 180� air turn, I'd better make it universal "if possible".

[Grollourdo]

Lol funny suggestion XD

[PepeKenobi]

Lol funny suggestion XD

as fun as making boosting available only via internal too ... lol

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

yes the mechs fov and turn rate are a major staple of balancing out higher skill players with lower skill players and us all have fun the scouts/a classes etc are already twitching and boosting with their blurry frenzy that many cant take on unless they get to flank or alpha them this would remove that chance 

[The_Silencer]

1.- Making the 180� mid-air turn universal would be the best way; imo.

 

2.- Having in mind both high-end and low-end users in the current game' scene.. probably one not so cool idea to implement a rear camera (or mirror) in HAWKEN right now. *Due to the game ticks requirements because of it..

 

*3.- Probably by adding a new setting in the game to play a non-intrusive wavesound for when an enemy is rendered on radar and at standard close range would be an useful step forward on this matter. Can you see it; besides locked radar settings and so forth to make things more complicate... dunno?.

 

=)

 

Edit: Forgot to mention that the 180� turn (not the land nor air version of it) should not be allowed to (specially) C-Class mechas who actually are enjoying of an special damage reduction (vr. as the Rocketeer when taking damage from the rear..) modifier when in turret mode.

Edited by The_Silencer, 31 May 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[kasei]

I'm on board for a rear camera view that takes up the entire screen, but not a rear view mirror/display in the cockpit.

Edit:

Also, it shouldn't be instant. It should be faster to toggle than doing two 180 turns, but slow enough that you wouldn't want to use it all the time.

Edited by kasei, 01 June 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[reVelske]

Useless bump of a month-old thread, but...

 

I would solidly approve with appropriate gratitude some mirrors, an air horn, and a decently audible back-up alarm.

 

Yes please, I need something to honk with on my car-with-legs-and-guns, loudly. BEEP BEEP GET OUT OF THE WAY.

[Sokram]

I dont think "mirrors" is a good idea.  Coz mechs are highly mobile and, unlike cars, they can do ground 180 in less than a second.  There is simply no need for mirror... Coz just like humans, mechs can simply turn around.

 

Also its possible to find mechs by sound.

 

You hear steps. You look at radar and see no allies. That means its an ENEMY. 

 

You hear thrusters. And no allies around. That b*tch is above!

 

That how it works for me. 

 

 

Horn is kinda interesting. Can be used to distract enemies....or to annoy other players with non stop noise. Needs a cooldown if implemented.

 

I just wonder why noone ever mentioned HEADLIGHTS?  Coz some mechs have them.  Sad there is no "Night" map. Would be soo gud...