184 replies to this topic

[Lightangel112]

iPiv, on April 07 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Lightangel112, on April 05 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

I love training with my predator. In DM's I reign supreme. People get surprised by me poking through shields, when played defensively against others or me. You have no idea how gratifying it is, to kill people in this mech. They go wtf just killed me!_ You used pred on me_! You wall hacking bro_ This is getting infuriating!!! No scout stands a chance against me. I take the enemies health down little by little every time without them seeing me. Even in cqc they get wrecked by my flak shots and detonators. Predator should be played, defensively from a distance, taking health down gradually, not allowing the prey to repair or alpha striking when they do, this is when predator should be played aggressively, when at a health advantage. Strike your target!

Are you talking seriously_
People are not stupid, they, after some shots, run fast and you are forced to sprint and become visible on radar. And I would really see how much points do you make in a DM with this slow tactics.

The point in this tread is balance the predator to be able to face other mechs and give it possibility to win a DM.

Yes I am talking seriously, I'm apparently the best predator player in Hawken (not my words) and I'm always MVP in DM with my predator (given, with enough time) if you ever see me in one, you will see I can get points rather quickly, I don't use slow tactics. I've mentioned several times what needs improving. Faster ROF on both default weapons and speed buff to projectiles like xacius just mentioned recently. Those are imo the best buffs it can get to be more efficient at fighting other mechs giving predator more viability. More damage to landed on target pucks would be a plus. More fuel or air dynamics would also be a plus for pred pilots. For slow AOE weaponry, the best tactic is to have a height advantage so that your secondary can deal actual AOE damage, so predator needs to be in the air using Air Compressor is a must or your pucks will hit absolutely nothing but air and walls. Preda!

Edited by Lightangel112, April 07 2014 - 07:28 AM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

So, in essence for those who don't want to read walls of text it's these points that Pred would benefit from:

• Buff of EOC-P's projectile speed
  
• Buff of EOC-P's direct hit damage
  
• Faster ROF for Breacher and EOC-P
  
• More fuel
  
• Passive aim ability while in Stalker mode

Personally, I'd also increase general walking speed of Predator since Pred's ability makes him walk around a lot instead of boosting.


Edited.

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, April 07 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[Lightangel112]

Hijinks_The_Turtle, on April 07 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

So, in essence for those who don't want to read walls of text it's these points that Pred would benefit from:

• Buff of EOC-P's projectile speed
  
• Buff of EOC-P's direct hit damage
  
• Faster ROF for Breacher and EOC-P

Personally, I'd also increase general walking speed of Predator since Pred's ability makes him walk around a lot instead of boosting.

Basically all of that yes in essence is all it really needs.
Faster walking in stealth and a passive aim ability.
Fuel could be higher for those using AC on predator.

Edited by Lightangel112, April 07 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[kanamisan]

I do hope that if they buff the eoc's, that they keep round speed the same, otherwise my brain might melt from it.

[Zycat]

My own personal list of wishes for Predator :

• Slightly lower reload time for Breacher from 2.0 seconds to 1.8 seconds
  
• Slightly higher damage for EOC Repeater direct hits, +2 damage per projectile
  
• EOC Repeater projectiles should be made less obvious.
  
• EOC Predator needs a projectile speed buff and less heat.
  
• EOC Predator mines needs a resistance to mine clearing effects of AoE weapons. Only semi-direct hits destroys the mines, needs two hits from AoE weapons to clear mines.
  
• EOC Predator needs an indicator on how many mines I have out at any given time.
  
• EOC Predator mines does NOT expire when I die, instead it only expires if I change to any other mech.

[SoldierHobbes11]

Xacius, on April 06 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

About a month ago, I bugged out in the garage and spawned with the Breacher on a Berserker.  That thing is fuzzy bunny nasty.  I used it alongside the TOW with the damage boost and just destroyed...  If we ever had the option to choose our loadouts, I'd probably use TOW + Breacher on an Assault frame.  

Anyway, onto the Predator.  I've been saying for a while that the mech's secondary weapon needs far more utility than it currently has.  While it excels in making traps, the plausibility of keeping consistent traps active against decent players is fuzzy bunny impossible due to the prevalence of explosive weaponry on most mech frames.  All it takes is one Heat Cannon shot or TOW/GL to render an entire trap useless.  Additionally, mechs with air mechanics are problematic, especially considering the fact that the Air Compressor is easy as pie to spam. Good luck hitting a flying Infiltrator with your EOC-P.  And while you're trying, they'll peg you with far more reliable weapons for far more damage.

The Predator's main flaw was that it was designed as a passive mech in a game where pretty much every mech has a direct, viable role in combat.  Sad thing is, some minor tweaks could make the Predator more viable in direct engagements while still retaining its passive "trap" playstyle.  Buff the projectile speed and direct-hit damage of the EOC-P, then you're getting somewhere.

THE GREAT GOD XACIUS HAS SPOKEN!

All joking aside, both Silver and Xacius touch on the what most of the veterans of the game feel the problem with the predator is: reliability of the secondary weapon, not damage output of the primaries.

I'm not saying that a lot of the new guys can't be right, I'm just saying that Silver and Xacius aren't pulling things out of some random hat and posting it on this thread. And, since ranking up my Predator to rank 6, I feel I agree with them. I've used both the Breacher and the EOC-R as primaries and I've seen a predator devastate my team with a T32. When used properly, those weapons have shown to me that they perform spectacularly.

However, when it comes to the secondary weapon, I never really feel like I can bet my life on the EOC-P, unlike a TOW or GL. Heck, an unscoped sabot feels more reliable. On their own, the mines lack the punch that every other secondary (minus the repair torch) possesses. I get that they're for traps, but the weapon is far too punishing if the trap fails. And I won't bother mentioning the other shortcomings of the EOC-predator, cuz they've been repeated to death on here. The only thing wrong with the predator is that it's secondary is far too punishing an unreliable in a direct confrontation. Being able to set the traps faster or have more punch in a direct confrontation (giving the mines a faster flying speed, for example) would go miles to help the predator stop being a vulture on the battlefield.

[Lightangel112]

Zycat, on April 07 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

My own personal list of wishes for Predator :

• Slightly lower reload time for Breacher from 2.0 seconds to 1.8 seconds
  
• Slightly higher damage for EOC Repeater direct hits, +2 damage per projectile
  
• EOC Repeater projectiles should be made less obvious.
  
• EOC Predator needs a projectile speed buff and less heat.
  
• EOC Predator mines needs a resistance to mine clearing effects of AoE weapons. Only semi-direct hits destroys the mines, needs two hits from AoE weapons to clear mines.
  
• EOC Predator needs an indicator on how many mines I have out at any given time.
  
• EOC Predator mines does NOT expire when I die, instead it only expires if I change to any other mech.

Those are some good suggestions. Passive ability resistance to AOE weps lol i like that one.

[AboveTheSky]

fuzzy bunny off from 150 damage

brecher give now 100,stop fuzzy bunny nerf predator in every patch

Edited by AboveTheSky, April 08 2014 - 04:45 AM.

[Lightangel112]

At least with 100 dmg, you need several shots to an A class than 2.

[Stingz]

Running around with the testdrive, EOC-P really lets the Predator down in a direct fight hard.
Heat and direct hit damage are awful (also terrible on flying opponents).

Edited by Stingz, April 08 2014 - 06:35 PM.

[kanamisan]

for my preditor, I chose to get the eoc repeater right off the bat..  so far its about as much of a difficulty spike as a brick wall to the face. but I have hope, with my floundering, I have managed to bring a number of people down to 50 or less hp and have a few kills. but it takes so much mental effort to hit both eoc's. that said, first experance with the breacher, sounds amazing, in practice, hurts so fricking hard. that said, kiting people around does so much damage.

[SoldierHobbes11]

kanamisan, on April 08 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

for my preditor, I chose to get the eoc repeater right off the bat..  so far its about as much of a difficulty spike as a brick wall to the face. but I have hope, with my floundering, I have managed to bring a number of people down to 50 or less hp and have a few kills. but it takes so much mental effort to hit both eoc's. that said, first experance with the breacher, sounds amazing, in practice, hurts so fricking hard. that said, kiting people around does so much damage.

Practice the EOC Repeater on a more forgiving mech, like the infiltrator, at first. EOC has a very high learning curve, and you won't make your life any easier trying to learn it on the predator. Once you do get the hang of it, the sheer amount of damage and explosions is so rewarding. Play it much more defensively and whenever you can't see your opponent, charge the repeater. Peek-a-boo also works great with this gun, but just make sure the whole volley shoots before you dodge back into cover. Also, if someone's up close and you need to finish them off, charge the repeater, aim the first shot right at them, and sweep your retecule in the direction they're moving. That helps you land at least one hit when you need to. Once you get the hang of the Repeater, the result is this:

Edited by SoldierHobbes11, April 09 2014 - 08:44 PM.

[kanamisan]

SoldierHobbes11, on April 09 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

kanamisan, on April 08 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

for my preditor, I chose to get the eoc repeater right off the bat..  so far its about as much of a difficulty spike as a brick wall to the face. but I have hope, with my floundering, I have managed to bring a number of people down to 50 or less hp and have a few kills. but it takes so much mental effort to hit both eoc's. that said, first experance with the breacher, sounds amazing, in practice, hurts so fricking hard. that said, kiting people around does so much damage.

Practice the EOC Repeater on a more forgiving mech, like the infiltrator, at first. EOC has a very high learning curve, and you won't make your life any easier trying to learn it on the predator. Once you do get the hang of it, the sheer amount of damage and explosions is so rewarding. Play it much more defensively and whenever you can't see your opponent, charge the repeater. Peek-a-boo also works great with this gun, but just make sure the whole volley shoots before you dodge back into cover. Also, if someone's up close and you need to finish them off, charge the repeater, aim the first shot right at them, and sweep your retecule in the direction they're moving. That helps you land at least one hit when you need to. Once you get the hang of the Repeater, the result is this:

I already started with my infiltrator today, and I agree, its so much amazing. also the lack of sleep the other day did not make anythign easy for me. but I really do feel that the eoc seems like the only viable weapon on the preditor. then again, the radier with the bolt or even the reflak takes way to much mental power from me to work right now.. but once I get the hang of the eoc, I think I will run it on almost every mech that can use it. might be the only reason to use the rocketier (for me at least.)

[mccrorie]

I feel the Breacher is viable if your ping is great. Otherwise it sucks. And the spread is still ridiculous.

[Jelletje]

Hi. I'm a very new player who got the predator as a first mech besides assault, I don't know how useful my insight is but I will provide it anyway. Just bear in mind I've only been playing a couple of days.

Now then, the predator.


The biggest problem I have with the predator is its reliance on mines. In the time I have played the predator I can count the amount of succesful mine ambushes on one hand. I feel like the whole idea of mines in a fast paced dynamic game like hawken just doesn't work. I find the time I spend laying down a trap an enemy is very unlikely to spring can be better spent simply going after the enemy and being sure I will actually be doing something useful.

The end result is I usually end up foregoing laying traps and simply using the eoc predator as a direct fire weapon, wich defeats its purpose as a mine launcher. I certainly would not mind if the weapon were to be scrapped and replaced with something with more synergy with its primary weapons, because the role of trapper is not an enormously useful one.

If the eoc predator had to stay I guess there's a few things to be done to make it more useful. For starters it takes far to long to lay down a full cluster of mines. Time that could be better spent. The inability to lay down a trap while cloaked is also troublesome, as it means you need to stay far clear of the enemy to lay down a trap in all safety and unbeknowst to the enemy.

What I would like to see is the eoc predator getting a significant fire rate decrease with a damage increase to compensate, and while in stealth for mines not to break stealth, firing them to be silenced, and enjoy an increase in fire rate so long as the predator remains in stealth, and finally a reduction in max mine count.This would give the predator somewhat improved burst when using the eoc predator offensively, and also allow him to much faster and covertly place a mine field when in stealth. Less but more powerful mines would also make a trap a bit harder to spot, you can see a cluster of 10 mines from miles away.


Next the stealth. I like the stealth but I do have one big and several minor issues with it. First off again the game's emphasis on high mobility does not mesh well with this ability, slowing you down to walking speed if you want to succesfully sneak up on your enemy. Oftentimes I cannot succesfully stalk my enemy simply because I am slower than him, at wich point I can give up stealth and boost in, revealing me on radar or keep chasing at a snails pace. While my team needs me to make a difference in the fight right now, I'm stuck in this slow paced game of cat and mouse until I catch up, wich is usually to late.

Some of the most fun use for the predators stealth is definatly a hit and run style where you burst, retreat, reenter stealth and repeat the process until your hapless victim is dead. The only mechs I can fight this way however are C class mechs, because again due to the lacking mobility. Any B or A class mech can either run away from me when I retreat to the shadows, or chase me down preventing me from reentering stealth, either way it forces me into a straight up fight wich is not the predator's strength.

What would really improve predator's stealth is a simple speed boost while in stealth, allowing him to catch up to his prey in a more timely manner. Say 10% or 15%. Additionally whenever you break stealth the speed boost could be doubled for a short time to allow the predator to either run and restealth after a succesful burst, or chase down a fleeing enemy more easily while maintaining stealth.

Finally the stealth break mechanics and its numbers overall seem fair, except perhaps the instant stealth cancel when getting hit. I think maybe it would be better if getting hit would just break the stealth, and only when getting hit while stealth is temporarily down should it cancel completely. This way if the predator eats a stray explosive or makes a wrong move he can at least try to salvage the situation instead of being forced such a long cooldown because of one single hit.


Lastly I found the breacher to be a horrible weapon. Its burst is nice and would work well with a hit and run type of gameplay but as I mentioned before this doesn't seem very viable. In a straight up fight this weapon is in my opinion godawfull, dealing really poor damage considering its fire rate. You could use it as a long range weapon with its charged shots but then that doesn't seem like the range the predator is supposed to excel at. Even as a hit and run weapon I don't think this thing is all that great either. Needs either more damage or more fire rate, imo.
Personally I do a ton better with the t32 bolt wich allows me very good burst with enough firepower to follow up for a kill, but maybe that's my personal preference. At least it lets me stand my ground in a straight up fight wich unfortunately is what most encounters end up being. Haven't tried the eoc repeater yet so can't comment there.


So yeah, that's my feedback on the predator. Like I say I'm a new player so maybe I'm missing some perspective, make of it what you will.

Edited by Jelletje, April 10 2014 - 01:33 AM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

Jelletje, on April 10 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

*snip*

Thank you for you in-depth feedback on Pred.  Yes that's basically what we are trying to help make Predator better on.  It's a bit too passive on gameplay (personally, I think others agree with me on this point as well).  No matter how Vanashinkaku defends it's currently lackluster way of fighting, setting traps and scavenging for kills is far too slow and it doesn't help the team enough anymore. It's the fact that there are so many mechs that can do it's job better that makes it sad. Even in team games like Siege and MA, the enemy can just shoot an AoE attack and destroy all those mines you carefully placed.

Okay, as of now... This is the expanding list to what Predator needs to fight better in this current meta...

Ways to help the Pred:

• Increase speed of boosting/walking - So Pred can actually do his job right since boosting makes his ability useless
  
• Shorten the reload times for EOC-P and Breacher - So you won't be killed due to having slow weapons and help your team more.
  
• Increase the projectile speed of EOC-P - To effectively lay traps due to the fact that the mechs are significantly faster.
  
• Have x amount of damage make Predator appear OR when under cloak, increase damage of his weapons - So Predator's job is more clear to people, and it will make the ability more useful.
  
• Have mines resist taking damage after a set amount of time.
  
• EOC-P mines stay on the battlefield even after Predator pilot dies.
  
• Indicator to how many mines are placed.

We need moar suggestions to how to make Predator better!  Keep 'em coming!

Edited by Hijinks_The_Turtle, April 10 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[SoldierHobbes11]

kanamisan, on April 09 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

SoldierHobbes11, on April 09 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

kanamisan, on April 08 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

for my preditor, I chose to get the eoc repeater right off the bat..  so far its about as much of a difficulty spike as a brick wall to the face. but I have hope, with my floundering, I have managed to bring a number of people down to 50 or less hp and have a few kills. but it takes so much mental effort to hit both eoc's. that said, first experance with the breacher, sounds amazing, in practice, hurts so fricking hard. that said, kiting people around does so much damage.

Practice the EOC Repeater on a more forgiving mech, like the infiltrator, at first. EOC has a very high learning curve, and you won't make your life any easier trying to learn it on the predator. Once you do get the hang of it, the sheer amount of damage and explosions is so rewarding. Play it much more defensively and whenever you can't see your opponent, charge the repeater. Peek-a-boo also works great with this gun, but just make sure the whole volley shoots before you dodge back into cover. Also, if someone's up close and you need to finish them off, charge the repeater, aim the first shot right at them, and sweep your retecule in the direction they're moving. That helps you land at least one hit when you need to. Once you get the hang of the Repeater, the result is this:

I already started with my infiltrator today, and I agree, its so much amazing. also the lack of sleep the other day did not make anythign easy for me. but I really do feel that the eoc seems like the only viable weapon on the preditor. then again, the radier with the bolt or even the reflak takes way to much mental power from me to work right now.. but once I get the hang of the eoc, I think I will run it on almost every mech that can use it. might be the only reason to use the rocketier (for me at least.)

Both the Raider and the Predator are very mentally tasking mechs to pilot. I'd say the easiest setup for both mechs is the defualt ones. However, between the two, the predator is the most punishing. I like the breacher and reflak for what they are, but they aren't my favorites to use, because the reflak generates way too much heat for my taste and actually I think the breacher is pretty damn awesome. However, I find the EOC Repeater much more fun to use. I use it on both the predator and raider, and I trade off between it and the Heat Cannon on my infiltrator. I'll probably get it on my rocketeer too, since I already have the heat cannon on it and I like that type of high burst on my rocketeer. As for the T32, I don't have any firsthand experience, but I've seen it used to deadly effect by a few pilots. More so on the raider, but it's clearly shown to be a deadly weapon. Just ask Weazl3.

Edited by SoldierHobbes11, April 13 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[mccrorie]

SoldierHobbes11, on April 09 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

kanamisan, on April 08 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

for my preditor, I chose to get the eoc repeater right off the bat..  so far its about as much of a difficulty spike as a brick wall to the face. but I have hope, with my floundering, I have managed to bring a number of people down to 50 or less hp and have a few kills. but it takes so much mental effort to hit both eoc's. that said, first experance with the breacher, sounds amazing, in practice, hurts so fricking hard. that said, kiting people around does so much damage.

Practice the EOC Repeater on a more forgiving mech, like the infiltrator, at first. EOC has a very high learning curve, and you won't make your life any easier trying to learn it on the predator. Once you do get the hang of it, the sheer amount of damage and explosions is so rewarding. Play it much more defensively and whenever you can't see your opponent, charge the repeater. Peek-a-boo also works great with this gun, but just make sure the whole volley shoots before you dodge back into cover. Also, if someone's up close and you need to finish them off, charge the repeater, aim the first shot right at them, and sweep your retecule in the direction they're moving. That helps you land at least one hit when you need to. Once you get the hang of the Repeater, the result is this:

"YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!!1111"

/holds down space bar

/passes Gandalf

[Joelnator]

He just needs to stay in stalker mode taking damage, when he takes damage he appear for 3 sec and disappear like the other actions.

[BoompigXD]

One thing needs to change about both EQC guns.

They need to get rid of that glowing beacon on each mine that is ridiculously easy to see except from far away. Nobody's going to step on something that might as well be Neon-glowing and on fire