24 replies to this topic

[Undecided_Major]

There are several weapons that are shared across multiple mechs in the game right now. The flak cannon can be equiped on the brawler and the scout for example. In the current system, both the brawler and scout flak cannons share the exact same stats and if the cannon were to get nerfed or buffed, it would affect both mechs. This has caused issues in the past.

 

For example, before Adhesive went belly up there was a balance patch that nerfed the flak cannon because the scout was (and still is) very strong in the meta at. This ended up nerfing the brawler as well, which was (and still is) fairly weak in the meta.

 

Perhaps the nerfing of the brawler along side the scout was intentional. Perhaps it wasn't. The point is the system is not exactly ideal if you want to adjust one mech and not another.

 

Food for thought.

 

Edit: I did not submit this suggestion for the approval of the board of influential and veteran players. I did not submit it to get crucified for my opinions on the balance of specific mechs. It was merely a suggestions for the new devs and I fail to see how unreasonable it is. A far sight more reasonable than some of the other suggestions on this board.

 

Edit2: I don't know how many times I have to say it. This thread was supposed to be about decoupling mech weapons stats from other mechs. Are the merits of this idea invalid because my opinion on balance is fuzzy bunny?

 

Edit3: Whoever moderates these forums please delete this thread. I'm sorry I even bothered. Its abundently clear that I am not welcome here after raining on everyones parade after Adhesive bailed.

Edited by Undecided_Major, 21 March 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[Merl61]

In what world do you live in where the brawler is weak in the meta......It is in contention for the best mech in the game...You raise an interesting point, but I think that if a mech is op, the mech's stats should be nerfed, if a weapon is op, its stats should be nerfed.  

[Dinre]

What I like best about this idea is having unique weapons for each mech.  I'm very interested in seeing some provocative asymmetry.

[OmegaNull]

The weapons for the most part are balanced. There are some tweaks needed, but nothing crazy really. The brawler is plenty strong.

Edited by OmegaNull, 21 March 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Undecided_Major]

Please don't split hairs over what was only an example meant to illustrate my point. It doesn't change the validity of my arguement whether or not you think the brawler is good.

 

A weapon can be OP on one mech and not another even if it has the same stats for both. Mechs sharing the exact same weapon stats is artificially limiting the kind of balance changes you can make.

[OmegaNull]

I have been a Hawken player for a long time, and to be honest, most of the weapons are fine where they are. Especially on the scout and brawler where even a slight tweak can ruin them. There has already been enough done to these mechs. If anything, the brawler is only super strong when you see how much health it has. Scout is very strong but is a glass cannon. 

 

The 3 things (merl touched on this) that need tweaking: Scanner, orbs, incinerator. 

Edited by OmegaNull, 21 March 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[Undecided_Major]

Once again you are attacking my example which was only meant to make a point. This isn't a brawler/scout thread. One of these days a new mech or weapon will be added or the meta will shift. If for whatever reason in this hypothetical future the eoc rocketeer is suddenly the best mech and it comes time for an eoc nerf, why should the other mechs that carry an eoc suffer for it?

 

Once again I stress this is only an example and to make sure this is super clear for you guys: I am not advocating that the eoc repeater on a rocketeer is overpowered.

 

It was just an example.

[OmegaNull]

I was pointing out that it was a poor example. 

[Sylhiri]

Having Vulcan on so many mechs is still lazy.

 

Mechs can have three different weapons and these weapons can impact the mechs gameplay based on it's stats (A/B/C). Changes to the game, while not directly changing the mechs or weapons, could impact the performance for individual mechs with the same weapon. It's not a bad idea to be able to adjust weapon values on an individual mech basis as, according to the old devs, they can't actually do this with the system they came up with.

 

It would be nice but the amount of work involved with being able to change the system is very large and other things at the moment take priority. Like fuzzy bunny bunker.

Edited by Sylhiri, 21 March 2015 - 12:10 PM.

[OmegaNull]

Now that makes sense in the way it was explained (invisible like because I am out of likes). 

[Dinre]

I have been a Hawken player for a long time, and ...

 

Can we all just agree to stop using our veteran status as a way to back up our opinions?  If our opinion can't stand on its own, perhaps we're the ones who need to change.  And aren't we wanting new players and opinions to join the community?

[OmegaNull]

Okay, point taken. :)

[JeffMagnum]

Is this really something worth the time it'd take to fix it, though? According to the old devs, it'd be a huge undertaking to change the back end so that this is possible, and it's entirely a hypothetical problem at the moment. Individual mech stat changes have been enough to fix all the issues that've appeared so far, and I don't see why it'd be any different in the future. I'd rather not have old weapons reused on future mechs anyway. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 21 March 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[IareDave]

There are several weapons that are shared across multiple mechs in the game right now. The flak cannon can be equiped on the brawler and the scout for example. In the current system, both the brawler and scout flak cannons share the exact same stats and if the cannon were to get nerfed or buffed, it would affect both mechs. This has caused issues in the past.

For example, before Adhesive went belly up there was a balance patch that nerfed the flak cannon because the scout was (and still is) very strong in the meta at. This ended up nerfing the brawler as well, which was (and still is) fairly weak in the meta.

Perhaps the nerfing of the brawler along side the scout was intentional. Perhaps it wasn't. The point is the system is not exactly ideal if you want to adjust one mech and not another.

Food for thought.

Edit: I did not submit this suggestion for the approval of the board of influential and veteran players. I did not submit it to get crucified for my opinions on the balance of specific mechs. It was merely a suggestions for the new devs and I fail to see how unreasonable it is. A far sight more reasonable than some of the other suggestions on this board.

When players such as yourself offer suggestions that others disagree with it leads to discussions. Your perspective that you feel your claims are being "attacked" is merely another persons opinion. So here's mine.

The brawler is actually one of the strongest mechs at high level of play and the scout is rarely used because of the high skill ceiling needed to compete with it against other popular powerhouses such as the Assault and Incin. Two of which are in my opinion the only mechs that the devs need to look into balancing with the rest of the pack via HP changes or movement speed tweaking - the two most common and practical ways to balance mechs.

Edited by IareDave, 21 March 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[Saturnine]

I'm pretty sure that the reason that weapons weren't balanced per mech in the first place is because of poor foresight when creating the databases and backend. It is difficult or impossible to change the weapons on a mech without completely removing the data for that mech from all accounts across the entire system, recreating a mech entry from scratch, and then repopulating every single account that owned one of those mechs with the new version with the new weapon. As it stands, the grenade launcher that is on say, the vanguard is exactly the same as the one on the Infiltrator, and any change that effects the Infiltrator's grenade launcher will effect every other mechs' grenade launcher in the exact same way. This is an aspect of the back end that has been an incredible pain in the ass for development ever since Hawken was released, and short of an absolutely enormous undertaking, is not reasonably resolvable.

 

 

Edit: VV Yup! Same as with the G2 Raider's weapons.

Edited by Saturnine, 21 March 2015 - 02:41 PM.

[Dinre]

I'm pretty sure that the reason that weapons weren't balanced per mech in the first place is because of poor foresight when creating the databases and backend. It is difficult or impossible to change the weapons on a mech without completely removing the data for that mech from all accounts across the entire system, recreating a mech entry from scratch, and then repopulating every single account that owned one of those mechs with the new version with the new weapon. As it stands, the grenade launcher that is on say, the vanguard is exactly the same as the one on the Infiltrator, and any change that effects the Infiltrator's grenade launcher will effect every other mechs' grenade launcher in the exact same way. This is an aspect of the back end that has been an incredible pain in the ass for development ever since Hawken was released, and short of an absolutely enormous undertaking, is not reasonably resolvable.

 

I'm pretty sure that's why we had the different weapon names for the "special" G2 Vulcan.

[Gookywun]

Don't be discouraged about discussing this kind of thing on the forum.

 

I actually made a topic about "Differentiating Mechs" a long time ago and I still stand that it is a vital point and should be taken a look into for this game.

 

Believe me, the developers know about this feature and the benefits, I'll make sure.

Edited by Gookywun, 21 March 2015 - 01:54 PM.

[DieselCat]

I was pointing out that it was a poor example. 

 

Not really....whether or not it's realistic to do so is another question but one that has merit. 

 

*+

[RedVan]

Balancing weapons on a per mech basis = hell for overall balance. It would increase workload and opportunity for imbalance far more than keeping things similar for all mechs.

[Nept]

 

For example, before Adhesive went belly up there was a balance patch that nerfed the flak cannon because the scout was (and still is) very strong in the meta at. This ended up nerfing the brawler as well, which was (and still is) fairly weak in the meta.

 

Edit: I did not submit this suggestion for the approval of the board of influential and veteran players. I did not submit it to get crucified for my opinions on the balance of specific mechs. It was merely a suggestions for the new devs and I fail to see how unreasonable it is. A far sight more reasonable than some of the other suggestions on this board.

 

The phrasing of your opinion (Scout is "very strong" and Brawler is "fairly weak") implies that it's popularly accepted as truth.  Why?  Because you referred to the "meta," which comprises the generally-accepted knowledge and playstyles within a player base.  Veteran and competitive players are typically better positioned to comment on the meta because of their experience with upper-tier play.  And contrary to your example, the current meta acknowledges the brawler's strength and the scout's relative weakness.  That's the reason that people are raising issue with your post.

 

In addition, it's more than a bit melodramatic to claim crucifixion when people are simply disagreeing (politely) with your opinion.  If you're attempting to avoid opposing opinions, then perhaps a public forum isn't your best bet.

 

That being said, not many people would take issue with decoupling weapons for balancing purposes. [Edit: provided the task is easily accomplished]  They will, however, voice opposing opinions if the examples of mech/weapon imbalance aren't correct.

Edited by Nept, 21 March 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[OmegaNull]

The phrasing of your opinion (Scout is "very strong" and Brawler is "fairly weak") implies that it's popularly accepted as truth.  Why?  Because you referred to the "meta," which comprises the generally-accepted knowledge and playstyles within a player base.  Veteran and competitive players are typically better positioned to comment on the meta because of their experience with upper-tier play.  And contrary to your example, the current meta acknowledges the brawler's strength and the scout's relative weakness.  That's the reason that people are raising issue with your post.

 

In addition, it's more than a bit melodramatic to claim crucifixion when people are simply disagreeing (politely) with your opinion.  If you're attempting to avoid opposing opinions, then perhaps a public forum isn't your best bet.

 

That being said, not many people would take issue with decoupling weapons for balancing purposes. [Edit: provided the task is easily accomplished]  They will, however, voice opposing opinions if the examples of mech/weapon imbalance aren't correct.

 

The man of reason has spoken!

[brackets]

Balancing weapons on a per mech basis = hell for overall balance. It would increase workload and opportunity for imbalance far more than keeping things similar for all mechs.

 

Having weapons tied to individual mechs would simply make minor balance tweaks easier. Currently, identical weapons are shared between mechs so you can't modify only one. This means weapon balance changes have to take into account all the mechs which use the weapon being tweaked, which makes weapon balance changes harder - not simpler.

[RedVan]

Having weapons tied to individual mechs would simply make minor balance tweaks easier. Currently, identical weapons are shared between mechs so you can't modify only one. This means weapon balance changes have to take into account all the mechs which use the weapon being tweaked, which makes weapon balance changes harder - not simpler.

Balance of different mech classes should be around armor and maneuverability. If they wish to make a weapon specific to a single weight class, they can do so. But making the same weapon with varying stats based on what mech it's on is just asking for disaster.

Currently weapons are the same across all classes, and balance is quite good.

[Rchive]

I get what you're saying. It almost seems like customization should go to one of two extremes: have the different classes all have their own stats, weapons, abilites, etc, or go the Armored Core route and have no classes, just pick your frame/weight class, weapons, ability, internals, items, etc. It seems kinda weird to have the game at some arbitrary point between the two.

[Saltydawg]

Can we all just agree to stop using our veteran status as a way to back up our opinions?  If our opinion can't stand on its own, perhaps we're the ones who need to change.  And aren't we wanting new players and opinions to join the community?

 

Well said Dinre!

 

Geez....most of you are missing the OP's point all together! The elitist group is already cyber bullying...look I see both your points...OP was just using the scout and brawler (both my main mechs) as an example...don't smash him for it...who gives a crap how hard it is to give mech specific weps. That is not what the players need to be concerned with is it?! That's the devs problem...and guess what....they get paid to fix these problems...it's a job for them...so relax...and calm your tits. I agree with both of you....imo Brawler is the best mech in the game...God knows I smash most of you with it but there is no need to ride Undecided Major because you missed his point all together!  I absolutely agree with OP the mechs do need mech specific weapons. This was his point. Not that one mech is weaker than another mech. 

 

What you all should have been doing is offering ideas like:

 

Laser Beams, Sticky grenades, Up-gradable ammo, Mechs that turn into tanks or cannons and can one shot kill, more weps that power up like the heat cannon, honestly the devs could use the same weapons (coding) and just make it look different and rename it. I know I would love to see tracer ammo. Those are my ideas. 

 

I will say this to the OP....one thing as a noob I liked about having the same wepsons is that once I got good with timing my tows or curving my hellfires....it made moving to the other class mechs that shared the weapons much much easier. My progression went Bruiser-Rocketeer, then Assault-Scout-Brawler as those all share weapons...What might be a more viable option for the devs is to simply add more weapon options to each mech. Food for thought!