15 replies to this topic

[Draigun]

Introduction: Mid-match leavers are arguably the main source of match balance inconsistency, and often result in destabilizing the affected server in general. Unless if Reloaded is going to hit the mark for gameplay balance and mechanics, these mid-match leavers will continue to plague the game, even if an increase in the player base is observed. This is an aspect of the game that needs to be addressed, regardless of the upcoming changes.

 

Description: For each match you successfully complete with 100 percent time committed, you earn additional Hawken Credits (HC) and/or XP points, called the "match-stay passive booster" (I couldn't think of a better name, sorry) or the 'MSB'. For each successful completion of a match, a 5% HC/XP increase is added to the MSB's pool, up to a maximum of 25%. Leaving a match with more than 1/3 (33%) of time committed in said match resets this booster's pool to 0%, which is baseline for all players. This does not apply if in-game stats on the player read 0. In addition, this booster, by default, does not apply to Private Servers—however, respective server administrators have the option to enable it. This booster will expire in 12 hours from the time the player maximizes the booster's level or when the player fully logs out.

 

Issues: There are plausible problems with this solution. For example, players can deliberately reset their network equipment to bypass the conditions of valid operation. Also, there are those who simply wouldn't care enough to stay for the MSB bonus. XP is considerably more valuable for those that have enough HCs. However, in order for this solution to work effectively with the current game state, a removal of the paywall associated with Overflow XP and its function is required, in my opinion. Also, players may not have a choice to continue playing, so they are forced to leave; unfortunately there is no way getting around this problem.

 

Other issues that haven't been mentioned are welcome to be discussed or mentioned here, as I cannot see any other glaring issues from the top of my head. I know we've discussed this particular topic numerous times on the community forums, but those past discussions do not take into account the addition of the PS4/XB1 platforms. I also thought it to be prudent to mention it again in alignment with future console launch day—which from what I heard, is going to happen sometime around this August.

 

Why?: This game continues to suffer from mid-match leavers daily. Even with a significant boost to the player base, mid-match leavers will continue to exist. This is a problem, since they are, arguably, the source of weak match balance that drives many to leave in return. The MSB fits well with those who grind to their hearts content. Those who do not play as much will still see some benefit, but in the end, it's designed to reduce mid-match leavers, not thoroughly increase HC/XP generation throughput—which should be increased globally, by the way. I could see this solution, or some other form of it, complement other methods to enhance the game experience.

 

Summary: Players gain additional HC/XP if they stay in the match with 100 percent commitment. The amount gained will depend on the end of match amount for both HC and XP values respectively. The MSB implementation should, in theory, reduce the mid-match leaver ratio. An indeliberate connection loss will not reset the MSB, but will still cause it to expire in 12 hours. The exact parameters of said values are entirely up for discussion, as is this solution in its entirety.

 

I do not expect this solution to be a long-term success, to be implemented, or to be considered as a slight or heavy modification. The main purpose of this post is to re-initiate the ongoing battle against mid-match leavers, which could potentially cripple the game's path to success. The mitigation of mid-match leaving should improve player retention rates, which in-turn should help to improve the game and the player's experience.

 

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I hope Reloaded has a trick or two to achieve the same effect, or better yet, approach it differently. I don't feel entirely confident in the long-term viability of this type of solution for it to properly achieve a reduction in mid-match leavers. Also, Reloaded has the vast "all-seeing-eye" database of endless statistics to make better, informed decisions.

 

Even so, this is a rough solution to get the discussion going for ways to reduce mid-match leavers. Ideally and in a perfect world, the mid-match leaver ratio decreases as the player base increases. The player retention level should be optimal, just as is the case with the player base. This is going to be a needed area of improvement. Ultimately, the outlook of the game is going to depend on Reloaded's attempt with Hawken's foundation in gameplay, balance, enjoyment, and experience.

[CrimsonKaim]

XP/HC punish is ineffective against the ones who already own like millions of HC and XP. 

 

Just get rid of the reasons for leaving (noob-stacking, passive plays, skill gaps, etc.) and barely one will leave for game balance reasons. You won't get rid of the leavers who have a wife shouting "dinner is ready" tho.

[coldform]

Instead of punishing players for leaving, Methods of rewarding pilots for remaining in the game should be implemented.

[Draigun]

XP/HC punish is ineffective against the ones who already own like millions of HC and XP. 

 

Just get rid of the reasons for leaving (noob-stacking, passive plays, skill gaps, etc.) and barely one will leave for game balance reasons. You won't get rid of the leavers who have a wife shouting "dinner is ready" tho.

 

You are rewarded for staying in the server and playing, but are also punished for leaving 1/3 of the way. This solution encompasses both. I think the balance of both of these aspects is greater than a single implementation of one or the other, especially on multiple platforms. It may not sound nice on paper, but you are effectively enforcing two ways in which the pilot should remain in the match. I will explain further with my response to coldform below.

 

Instead of punishing players for leaving, Methods of rewarding pilots for remaining in the game should be implemented.

 

There's no evidence in Hawken—to my knowledge—that rewarding players instead of punishing them proves to be greater in effect, and vice-versa. However, my method is a combination of both reward and punishment. The key here is lessening the punishment so as to not be so degrading in effect. However, I do not consider this revision of my solution to be in any way, shape or form, a long-term fix. I would encourage Reloaded to offer a system that rewards players without losing mitigation effectiveness.

 

The root of problem: Why do people leave the game in the first place? Mostly, it's probably because the match is not fun for those that leave, so they are disinterested and leave the server. Why is the match not fun? That's likely due to an unbalanced match in score and experience. And why is that the case? Well, I think we can safely assume that it's mainly because we suffer from a low population. As many have mentioned before, the lower the population, the higher spread in skill and experience in servers will occur, which will cause the imbalance; this is mostly where we get our mid-match leavers.

 

Also, for what it's worth: the thread you linked does reward the player in essentially the same way. In fact, I feel as if this method would be far less effective, because the game has limited content, and will continue to have limited content. Introducing such a heavy implementation of RNG shouldn't be the route to go down, at least not right now. A better way for now is to incorporate the resources in which you spend and utilize to unlock content. The best way to do that right now is using the existing Overflow XP mechanics and HC throughput rates.

 

If Hawken had the content to provide with a RNG drop system, it would work pretty good. But I can't see this game having enough content in some way to comfortably provide decent RNG and rewards for it.

[CrimsonKaim]

 

You are rewarded for staying in the server and playing, but are also punished for leaving 1/3 of the way. This solution encompasses both. I think the balance of both of these aspects is greater than a single implementation of one or the other, especially on multiple platforms. It may not sound nice on paper, but you are effectively enforcing two ways in which the pilot should remain in the match. I will explain further with my response to coldform below.

 

 

Again, take me for example. Got lots of free XP, lots of HC. I wouldn't care about either of those. Neither would I care if I would be rewarded with bonus XP/HC (as I have all my favourite mechs maxed out including internals. Just got myself a G2 Raider and fully customized it, no problem ... ) nor would I care if I would be punished with that.

 

We have to terminate the reasons for leaving as I have mentioned above. As you already said, some have to leave due to real life, which is okay, but I doubt everyone's house is in flames every day at 20:00 o' clock. 

 

See, getting rid of noob-stacking and the like - I assume this would significantly decrease player leaving. Like why do players leave? Because their team sucks. Or sometimes because their team is godlike. 

Excluding real life reasons. 

 

Another note: Your suggestion is pretty similar to Overwatch but as I am playing Overwatch I do not care about the punishment. I'll leave as soon as I see my team consists of fully arbitrary no-brainers just looking for kills with their x5 offensive characters when we have to defend. No thanks, you are not worth my time. Leave and re-queue. 

 

However, as it stands now, we can#t get rid of the issues as of low player base. With the re-launch I could imagine a better base to build on.

[Guns_N_Rozer]

they should bring some penalty for leaving in match like overwatch , you can't play 1 hour or 1 day 

[crockrocket]

I certainly agree that a straight up XP/HC penalty/bonus system is better than nothing. The reason I think my proposed salvage system goes a step further is the inclusion of chance. It's the same reason people like gambling so much. Take overwatch as another example. While their method of dealing with leavers is an xp penalty, leveling due to xp gives you a loot crate, thus including your element of chance. The idea here is to get people to say "just one more match"

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 19 June 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[Draigun]

Again, take me for example. Got lots of free XP, lots of HC. I wouldn't care about either of those. Neither would I care if I would be rewarded with bonus XP/HC (as I have all my favourite mechs maxed out including internals. Just got myself a G2 Raider and fully customized it, no problem ... ) nor would I care if I would be punished with that.

 

We have to terminate the reasons for leaving as I have mentioned above. As you already said, some have to leave due to real life, which is okay, but I doubt everyone's house is in flames every day at 20:00 o' clock. 

 

See, getting rid of noob-stacking and the like - I assume this would significantly decrease player leaving. Like why do players leave? Because their team sucks. Or sometimes because their team is godlike. 

Excluding real life reasons. 

 

[...]

 

Yes, I agree to a certain extent. There are those of us who do not care regarding in-game resources. I should have probably stated that, although I think it is implied, Reloaded's upcoming changes seem to have radically changed the game's progression system. These solutions will only probably impact the average MMR bracket in skill and progression, and that it's crucial flaw. Since both spectrums of the MMR bracket are significantly different (low to high end), in my opinion, another solution is needed to prevent mid-match leavers within those brackets. I think your suggestion of eliminating noob-stacking is a pretty good first step in accomplishing that for the high-end, with reducing in-game match imbalance an absolute priority. For the low end, the deviation of skill is usually tighter, so a simple increase in player base could yield the optimal results we're trying to achieve here.

 

Ultimately, the focus here is including and accommodating for all platforms, not just PC. We have to assume that mid-match leavers are going to impact the new players, cross-platform. This solution should address the audiences as a whole. Or at the very least, it can tackle the problem to a somewhat respectable degree of success.

 

 

I certainly agree that a straight up XP/HC penalty/bonus system is better than nothing. The reason I think my proposed salvage system goes a step further is the inclusion of chance. It's the same reason people like gambling so much. Take overwatch as another example. While their method of dealing with leavers is an xp penalty, leveling due to xp gives you a loot crate, thus including your element of chance. The idea here is to get people to say "just one more match"

 

I like the idea of your solution, as it potentially gives a better reason to stay. Honestly, I have not played Overwatch yet, and didn't know they penalize leavers. With ten million players in population though, this effect is probably extremely beneficial, I would imagine.

 

I just cannot see this game adopting it without adding more content into the mix, or without increasing the value of HC/XP. The same applies to my proposed solution as well. None of this will matter if the value of said resources do not make a night and day difference to the player.

 

In that regard, my proposed solution should work for the low to medium bracket in skill level. Higher brackets wouldn't see much benefit, which is the flaw with the solution itself.

 

To a new player though, these resources become a necessity, and usually they won't get enough of it. Reloaded needs to find a way to extend this feeling in the game tenfold, so it reaches the higher skill bracket. With that in-mind, it might not even be necessary to implement controversial systems such as these.

Edited by Draigun, 19 June 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[crockrocket]

Obviously my solution also has a higher initial development cost, so I am in favor of a temporary solution, even if that takes the form of a penalty.

[ATX22]

they should bring some penalty for leaving in match like overwatch , you can't play 1 hour or 1 day 

 

If Reloaded takes this route, I hope that they'll gauge actual interest in Hawken before throwing time-based penalties into the mix.  I don't know what Overwatch does (haven't played it), but if it's time based for leaving, remember that it's retail and people have paid money for the "privilege" to play, and that there is substantially more interest in Overwatch than Hawken.  If people are flocking over to Hawken by the thousands, fine, that'll work, if you get the initial ~10K max (again) followed by months of huge community population losses, it might not be the best approach.

[crockrocket]

they should bring some penalty for leaving in match like overwatch , you can't play 1 hour or 1 day

Overwatch doesn't prevent you from playing, they just penalize XP gain. I actually get penalized fairly frequently because my computer is shitey and will stay on map loading screen, resulting in removal because inactivity.

[Guns_N_Rozer]

Overwatch doesn't prevent you from playing, they just penalize XP gain. I actually get penalized fairly frequently because my computer is shitey and will stay on map loading screen, resulting in removal because inactivity.

uhh i know the xp penalty but i thought that one also becuase i tried to join but can't log in :(

[nepacaka]

Instead of punishing players for leaving, Methods of rewarding pilots for remaining in the game should be implemented.

punish system is very good working in MWO. 
if you kill teammate -15k credits
if you leave from match - 2 minutes waiting until you can start next match (but you can immidiately return in previous match from which you leave) 
if you disconnected (or reboot PC) - you have 10 sec. penalty before start next match (because system can't know you disconnect specially or it is just provider, in any case you spent ~1-2 minutes to launch game again so it is equal penalty)

and it is working. most of ppl never leave. or if he disconnected, they return soon. profit.
yeah, many ppl have 1 million HC, but you can punish they by time if they leave. it is working always

Edited by nepacaka, 21 June 2016 - 05:51 AM.

[Hyginos]

if you leave from match - 2 minutes waiting until you can start next match (but you can immediately return in previous match from which you leave) 

 

I maintain that this is the best way to approach it. For someone who has to leave because something comes up it is a non-issue, but of you quit out of raw salt rage then you get a few minutes to cool down before you get to play again.

 

However, I don't think you should be able to re-join the server you left without consequence. In MWO there are no hot-joins, and the teams are fairly static for the whole match. In Hawken, however, the teams and balance can be in constant flux, so even if you put the leaver back on the team he abandoned it may still mess up the balance.

[nepacaka]

so even if you put the leaver back on the team he abandoned it may still mess up the balance.

 

yes. but i'm not talking about it. people in just know that they will be punishined, so they just don't wan't to leave. i mean, they play a long time, and it is like...hmm... "habit" or "education". they leave very rare (99% by disconnect) just because they don't want to leave xD
even player is angry they faster tell something (something bad) in chat or mic, but not leave from fight. despite  that fact that some player in MWO play long time and also "Have everything" (many mechs, c-bills, etc.)

i know it is sound stupid, but i can't explain it better. it is like "rule of behaviour" in game. MWO players also got a slightly rating nerf. not because leave, just because if you deal 0 damage in fight you rating is down. and MWO players love their high rating. so... xD

Edited by nepacaka, 21 June 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[crockrocket]

uhh i know the xp penalty but i thought that one also becuase i tried to join but can't log in :(

 

I've been prevented from logging in sometimes due to connectivity issues, but not as a penalty.