33 replies to this topic

[Dinre]

If you're not interested in community and communication, I'd suggest just ignoring this thread.

 

I believe this is a critical time for Hawken, and we are probably going to see an influx of new players sometime in the near future.  At this time, I really want Hawken to succeed, and so I come to you all with a proposal that we all work on being purposefully welcoming on the forums and in-game.  This is stuff that extends far beyond Hawken, and I think it may serve us very well.

 

Here's the point: We want to communicate to new players in a way that is welcoming.

 

These are a few practical communication techniques I've picked up over the years, and I'd love to hear others' suggestions as well.

 

 

When you have an objection, put the positive part after the "but."

 

We all do this.  We want to soften our disagreement by putting a compliment first.

That's a great idea, but I don't think it will work.

The problem is, when someone takes the risk to propose a new idea, they're just waiting for the negative comments, and they will usually gloss over anything that comes before the negative.  This means you haven't softened your objection at all.  If you want to communicate both your disagreement and also be welcoming, just flip the sentence around.

I don't think it will work, but that's a great idea.

Trust me.  This works.

 

 

When you're about to get on a soapbox, just stop and cut that part out.

 

This one is hard to resist.  Someone mentions one little thing that we are passionate about, and we grab the thread by the throat and won't let go.  I just ran across a topic today where I was about to write

What I like best about this idea is having unique weapons for each mech.  I'm really, really uninterested in balance (having never seen it in a game), but I'm very interested in seeing some provocative asymmetry.

I'm very passionate about game design and how I believe balance is both impossible to attain and uninteresting to play.  However, bringing it up would be hijacking the thread and be really rude to the OP.  I caught myself before posting and instead wrote

What I like best about this idea is having unique weapons for each mech.  I'm very interested in seeing some provocative asymmetry.

And the thread wasn't hijacked.

 

 

When you want to lend weight to your opinion, add personal stories instead.

 

Oh, man.  This one gets my goat, mostly because I used to do it ALL THE TIME.  Not just on forums, but at work, in my home life, with friends...  It's amazing that anyone could stand me.  It starts with your opinion.

The Sharpshooter is a terrible class.

And then someone disagrees.

Sharpshooter is one of the best classes for high level play.

And you want to just trump that other opinion with your credentials.

Look.  I've been playing since alpha, and I consistently run with the top players...

And that's just demeaning to the other person.  It tells the other person that you believe they don't have the right to an opinion and really sours the tone of the conversation.  It's easy to do, but it's also really easy to avoid.  Just add personal stories instead.  Tell about the experience you've had and how it led you to think the way you do.  This actually lends way more weight to your opinion, and more importantly, it's respectful.  In some circles, whipping out your credentials actually hurts your credibility, and it's great to learn to avoid that land mine.

 

 

If you make a communication mistake, just admit it.

 

I'm going to make mistakes that aren't welcoming.  You're going to make mistakes that aren't welcoming.  The best thing we can do is just acknowledge the mistake.  It makes you look mature, confident, and most importantly, it let's the offended person know we care about their feelings.  It doesn't have to be elaborate.  A simple admission can make a world of difference.

That came off harsher than I intended.

 

 

Thoughts?  Other suggestions?

[Amidatelion]

If you're not interested in community and communication, I'd suggest just ignoring this thread.

 

 

 

If you make a communication mistake, just admit it.

 

 

[Nept]

The Sharpshooter is a terrible class.

[OmegaNull]

Good read. I think we all can take something away from this!

[Sylhiri]

If someone asks for a seven second EMP they should know that in the past it was a very bad idea.

[Merl61]

I agree for the most part, but what are we supposed to do when someone says something that is just plain wrong? Are we just supposed to nod and smile? This is a legitimate question. It has nothing to do with opinion. It has to do with fact. What do you guys think is an appropriate protocol for corrections?

[Dinre]

I agree for the most part, but what are we supposed to do when someone says something that is just plain wrong? Are we just supposed to nod and smile? This is a legitimate question. It has nothing to do with opinion. It has to do with fact. What do you guys think is an appropriate protocol for corrections?

 

My personal preference is to:

a) state a correction and source without any additional comments and acknowledge the other person's opinion ("In the dev posts, they said it works like this, but I can see how your idea makes sense.")

 

OR

 

b) if I can't bring myself to validate a "stupid" opinion, just state a correction and source without any additional comments ("In the dev posts, they said it works like this."  Bonus on this one... it absolutely KILLS the conversation)

 

OR

 

c) just ignore it.

 

 

This way, I don't have to call out the other person for being stupid, and if they're trolling, I'm not feeding.  And for the record, I use option C an awful lot on the internet.  I use A more in person.

 

Edit: Misspelled "awful."  That's a little embarrassing.

Edited by Dinre, 21 March 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[ROSING]

Someone pin this.

[Z1Alpha]

Haha, every forum should have post! This basic 101 common courtesy class should be taken EVERYWHERE!

[Crminimal]

Someone should pin this as Forum Ethics!

 

Aspergers to the people!

Edited by Crminimal, 21 March 2015 - 09:11 PM.

[comic_sans]

I love all of this.

[Weezl3]

I agree for the most part, but what are we supposed to do when someone says something that is just plain wrong? Are we just supposed to nod and smile? This is a legitimate question. It has nothing to do with opinion. It has to do with fact. What do you guys think is an appropriate protocol for corrections?

Tell them they are wrong, but don't sound condescending. Because we all make mistakes. There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. And stupid people rarely ask questions.

[Dinre]

Tell them they are wrong, but don't sound condescending. Because we all make mistakes. There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. And stupid people rarely ask questions.

 

It's that "don't sound condescending" part that's hard for me.  I think the best point Weezl3 makes is to assume the person asking the question is intelligent.  I find that really changes how I phrase things.

[Nept]

Tell them they are wrong, but don't sound condescending. Because we all make mistakes. There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. And stupid people rarely ask questions.

Should've listened to Leon trying to play Tera.

[XPloyt]

Tell them they are wrong, but don't sound condescending. Because we all make mistakes. There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. And stupid people rarely ask questions.

 

 

It's that "don't sound condescending" part that's hard for me.  I think the best point Weezl3 makes is to assume the person asking the question is intelligent.  I find that really changes how I phrase things.

 

 

..."And the thread wasn't hijacked."

[Dinre]

Someone should pin this as Forum Ethics!

 

Aspergers to the people!

 

Interestingly enough, there is some truth to that Aspergers comment.  There's actually a significant portion of the population here in the USA that would qualify as "atypical" autistic.  Atypical autistics (or PPD-NOS) are pretty high functioning but do have more difficulty communicating and understanding social context.  If anyone reading this is interested, you can learn a lot about both how to communicate AS an autistic and how to communicate WITH an autistic by reading the book Aspbergers on the Job.

 

I bring this up, because it can have a profound impact on the way you communicate with people, especially those in the technical communities.  And in my experience, a lot of the same stuff applies to victims of post-traumatic stress disorder, too.

 

It's easier to get along with people when you understand that communication is what the person listening does, and to communicate well, we have to understand how people are hearing / reading our words.

[EchoJester]

Im always nice to newer players especially if i see them struggling Ill let them get me a few times and even type out tips for them to get a hit on me themselves

[EchoJester]

I propose a new game mode,call it skrimage,experienced pilot can elect to be put on a list were when a new pilot enters the mode various pilots on the experienced list will get a request for a skrimmage to both test and guide new pilots

[AsianJoyKiller]

Interestingly enough, there is some truth to that Aspergers comment.  There's actually a significant portion of the population here in the USA that would qualify as "atypical" autistic.  Atypical autistics (or PPD-NOS) are pretty high functioning but do have more difficulty communicating and understanding social context.

Not to mention there's various other disorders outside of the autistic spectrum that people have (like myself being schizoid) that can cause issues.

[LoC_TR]

The Sharpshooter is a terrible class.

Highest deeps in the game dude, l2aimSCRUBlord

[OdinTheWise]

If someone asks for a seven second EMP they should know that in the past it was a very bad idea.

i think a plain slap is sufficient 

[comic_sans]

It's easier to get along with people when you understand that communication is what the person listening does, and to communicate well, we have to understand how people are hearing / reading our words.

 

This is a thing.  Your intention may be to clear something up as someone more experienced offering insight, but you may be perceived as a condescending jerk.  Perception is everything and remember the main goal of what you're typing: either to convert someone to your way of thinking or at least to make your line of thinking appear valid and understandable, neither of which is made easier by any statement implying someone's inferiority, however true.

 

Also, as a related concept, think about whether you want to treat the argument like a fight, with a winner and a loser, or whether you want to actually resolve a conflict.

 

I deal with skilled but egotistical knuckleheads every day at my job, and it's harrowing to convince any of them they forgot something or that their course of action is not the best one without a lot of bullshitting and butter-ups, but it saves the company money which directly impacts me, so I deal.

Edited by comic_sans, 07 April 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[Pumapaw]

Pleae translate this to cat.

[TheFrostnessMonster]

Being polite to newbies is always a good thing to do, because if you present the core community of Hawken as a bunch of whiny, screaming, hating crybabies, they will leave faster than you can say "oh fuzzy bunny".  Plus, its mean to make fun.  If you have something you would like to say to a newbie to correct them, call it 'constructive criticism'; it works.

[OdinTheWise]

This is a thing.  Your intention may be to clear something up as someone more experienced offering insight, but you may be perceived as a condescending jerk.  Perception is everything and remember the main goal of what you're typing: either to convert someone to your way of thinking or at least to make your line of thinking appear valid and understandable, neither of which is made easier by any statement implying someone's inferiority, however true.

 

Also, as a related concept, think about whether you want to treat the argument like a fight, with a winner and a loser, or whether you want to actually resolve a conflict.

 

I deal with skilled but egotistical knuckleheads every day at my job, and it's harrowing to convince any of them they forgot something or that their course of action is not the best one without a lot of bullshitting and butter-ups, but it saves the company money which directly impacts me, so I deal.

i totally get where you are coming from. i speak engineer, which is foreign to most peoples brains but i operate on logic and not bull fuzzy bunny so there is that. i have gotten good at translating my mode of thinking generally 

[CrimsonKaim]

Gosh, when I read this, I get the thought of talking to 8 year old kids who can't handle a little bit of negativity.

I mean, come on, do we really have a player base who are mentally so weak that they break down when we say: "Oh man, your playstyle is so dumb, you will never get to the top." | "Dude, this is BS, get off." etc. etc.

 

I myself just go straight forward. If I don't like an idea I will just say it so.

 

Example:

 

Idea: "Calculate MMR by team results only. That means, everyone in the winning team gets MMR added and on the losing team MMR subtracted. This will result in a huge increase in Teamplay and will make Solo-plays not rewarded."

 

What I want to say: This is dumb, what about if you are 19/3 and your team still fails? What about feeders who intentionally pull down team score so you guys will suffer in MMR? And why the hell are solo plays bad? You can flank and assassinate someone way better when you are alone without some damn mate who is continously boosting and showing his signature on the enemy's radar ...

 

How I would say it: "This is dumb, what about if you are 19/3 and your team still fails? What about feeders who intentionally pull down team score so you guys will suffer in MMR? And why the hell are solo plays bad? You can flank and assassinate someone way better when you are alone without some damn mate who is continously boosting and showing his signature on the enemy's radar ..."

 

 

._.

Edited by FakeName, 08 April 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[Pandabaron]

To add a couple of things to this thread, I've always found that a smiley can defuse a number of situations, even if you're trying to say something with negative connotations. Often people warm to my Panda ways... =D

Also I would suggest to people that they should stop playing smurfs. As there will be an influx of new players, I want them to stay and grow in a surrounding that doesn't have veterans handing every kill to one team with an insurmountable 600-700 score to boot. It's not like we can't get servers now.  

[AngryOgre]

Gosh, when I read this, I get the thought of talking to 8 year old kids who can't handle a little bit of negativity.
I mean, come on, do we really have a player base who are mentally so weak that they break down when we say: "Oh man, your playstyle is so dumb, you will never get to the top." | "Dude, this is BS, get off." etc. etc.

I myself just go straight forward. If I don't like an idea I will just say it so.

Example:

Idea: "Calculate MMR by team results only. That means, everyone in the winning team gets MMR added and on the losing team MMR subtracted. This will result in a huge increase in Teamplay and will make Solo-plays not rewarded."

What I want to say: This is dumb, what about if you are 19/3 and your team still fails? What about feeders who intentionally pull down team score so you guys will suffer in MMR? And why the hell are solo plays bad? You can flank and assassinate someone way better when you are alone without some damn mate who is continously boosting and showing his signature on the enemy's radar ...

How I would say it: "This is dumb, what about if you are 19/3 and your team still fails? What about feeders who intentionally pull down team score so you guys will suffer in MMR? And why the hell are solo plays bad? You can flank and assassinate someone way better when you are alone without some damn mate who is continously boosting and showing his signature on the enemy's radar ..."


._.

Well, if people take fuzzy bunny at work/school/home, why would they stick around in Hawken if they get to take more fuzzy bunny from people? Some people are at their breaking point by the time they can get home and fire up the rig, I would suspect that they are trying to escape any more fuzzy bunny coming their way for a few hours. I'm not saying it never unwarranted, but if a conversation goes from 0 to shity in 2 seconds flat, it will probably hurt player retention

Edited by AngryOgre, 08 April 2015 - 01:12 PM.

[Pelanthoris]

Great post. IMHO this advice works IRL, ingame, forums, etc.

 

Most shitstorms start from nothing and usually includes people being inconsiderate, whenever it's on purpose or not. Often ingame the way people talk to each other depends on their personal definition of "fun". To some people it's winning or personal succes, to others it's personal improvement. Some people are just killing time. Others just like to play Hawken and enjoy a good company.

 

This diversity causes quite a lot of trouble as other players are ruining their flavor of fun (whether that is preventing a victory or being assholes to others). I'm  not a very good pilot, so there are ups and downs down the road for me, so I find joy in small triumphs. I still know my way quite well around Hawken and givin a noob some advice for a few matches might be a game changer for them. Giving advice might include handing their ass to them, but to have it done by a friendly face is much more fun. At least I find it preferable in comparison to be constantly blown to pieces by an silent pro.

 

I find even the greatest of victories lesser than an total loss against people I like.

[Grollourdo]

Lol omg man I do the same too!!! With ALOT .... (Too much actually) Smiley's too!!!

Lol all I do is actually EXACTLY what you said

But I try to talk just as if I was talking and not typing ...

Tho this has taken a toll on me...


I LOVE BRAINSTORMING!!!

[spinningchurro]

 

If you're not interested in community and communication, I'd suggest just ignoring this thread.

 

 

 

If you make a communication mistake, just admit it.

 

 

 

 

 

Hahaha oh fuzzy bunny it took me a second but damn, nothing like serving someone's words back to them.

[DieselCat]

Bump...Please pin this 

 

*+

[MechFighter5e3bf9]

i help if they desire help but dont condescend to instruct them on how to enjoy the game if they are having fun feeding or camping, cant we all get along

[6ixxer]

Gosh, when I read this, I get the thought of talking to 8 year old kids who can't handle a little bit of negativity.
I mean, come on, do we really have a player base who are mentally so weak that they break down when we say: "Oh man, your playstyle is so dumb, you will never get to the top." | "Dude, this is BS, get off." etc. etc.
 
I myself just go straight forward. If I don't like an idea I will just say it so.

I understand 'saying it like it is.. but 'Dumb', etc is in no way helpful, and is actually offensive to most people.

Say what it is that will not work and why. I don't expect it to be sugar coated, but belittling a persons intelligence is poor form.

If you feel like calling someone dumb, etc say to yourself "This person probably hasn't been given good guidance to improve themselves. Perhaps I can give them some guidance"

eg: "Stop rushing in, the other team will overpower you. Stick with me and we can cover eachother and focus damage to bring down enemies"
+ follow by tapping the help required button a few times.

If they don't follow or respond, or they respond in an unhelpful way then you can tell them they are useless to the team, and then just ignore them. Saying they are useless to the team is more accurate, so can't be argued so much, and only has one comeback and that is to no longer be useless.

Also:
I recall a thread where someone had initially been less than kind about a player in siege shooting the ship. The response was "my brother has a mental problem, he likes to shoot the ship and just wants to be included". Then the whole team remembered that games are also about fun and not just winning, so they helped him out.

Have fun playing guys,
6ixxer