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[brackets]

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The KE-Sabot rifle is the Reaper's secondary weapon, which offers lower burst damage than the Sharpshooter's Sabot rifle with better DPS. However, the KE-Sabot's DPS does not compensate for its lower burst damage; with equivalent primary weapons, the Sharpshooter also has a faster TTK than the Reaper against any mech before considering the Sharpshooter's damage-modifying ability.

 
Damage output typically is not tied to mech class. The Vulcan Berserker will have the same TTK against any mech as the Vulcan Brawler and Vulcan Assault. Same with the Flak Brawler and Flak Scout. Even the Raider and G2 Raider have balanced TTK's with DPS and burst variant secondary weapons. My suggestion is to balance the Reaper's damage output with the Sharpshooter's, just as other mechs with comparable loadouts have equivalent damage output regardless of class. 
 
Currently, the scoped KE-Sabot does 75 damage per shot.
To match the Slug-Sharpshooter's TTK against the Assault with the Slug-Reaper, the KE-Sabot would need to do 80.22 damage per shot.
To match the AM-SAR Sharpshooter's TTK against the Assault with the AM-SAR Reaper, the KE-Sabot would need to do 82.95 damage.
 
Currently, the Reaper's scope provides a 1.25 damage modifier to the KE-Sabot's damage.
 
Suggestion:

• Increase scoped KE-Sabot's damage from 75 to 80-85.
• Increase unscoped KE-Sabot's damage from 60 to 64-68.

With the upper bound of this change, the Slug Reaper's TTK would break even with the Sharpshooter's TTK at 410 damage. The AM-SAR Reaper's TTK would break even with the Sharpshooter's TTK at 486 damage. The Sharpshooter would still have a faster TTK versus light mechs, whereas the Reaper would have a faster TTK against B-Class and C-Class mechs as would be expected from a DPS-oriented sniper variant - ignoring the Sharpshooter's ability. With Powershot, the Sharpshooter gains a faster TTK than the Reaper against any single mech.
 
Note: TTK is approximated assuming perfect accuracy based on TTK = (armour - burst)/dps.
More depth below.

Edited by brackets, 07 November 2015 - 08:43 PM.

[IareDave]

Let's not buff that devotion fuzzy bunny.

 

But f'real: The main benefit is the reaper can no-scope in cqc whereas the SS loses a ton of sabot accuracy via no scopes.

[Pocy]

on your fine-tune the proposal should
I know Sharpshooter excellent pilots.
If levers Sharpshooter damage, even the pros will be able to use close combat as well.
This 2000MMR end higher MMR players are created unbalance.

Edited by Pocy, 24 May 2015 - 09:30 PM.

[brackets]

I know Sharpshooter excellent pilots.If levers Sharpshooter damage, even the pros will be able to use close combat as well. This 2000MMR end higher MMR players are created unbalance.

The Sharpshooter retains stronger burst damage. The Reaper retains better DPS. The difference is, the Reaper's DPS would now better compensate for its lower burst damage. I did the maths specifically to make sure the suggested changes would be balanced.

Edited by brackets, 31 May 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[o0m9]

If we're trying to maintain the KE as a relatively low burst but higher DPS variant of the default Sabot, wouldn't it be more appropriate to increase the KE's reload speed?

 

A reload speed change won't have much impact on the burst potential of the mech (if any), but it would be a great help for sustained damage, and it would make the weapon a tad bit more forgiving.

[MaNia_C]

Let's not buff that devotion fuzzy bunny.

 

But f'real: The main benefit is the reaper can no-scope in cqc whereas the SS loses a ton of sabot accuracy via no scopes.

 

Do you NA guys use the reaper in competitive play? Is it viable?

 

And if not, pls explain why?

Edited by (KDR) MaNia_C, 25 May 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[LaurenEmily]

Do you NA guys use the reaper in competitive play? Is it viable?
 
And if not, pls explain why?

Maybe not my place but i've seen devotion & i've seen Rei. Amazing reaper players both.

Oh and i've seen devotion take on Dave's assault as a reaper in the fight club and won. Several times. It's beautiful.

[MomOw]

As per salty stats unscoped version of KE-Sabot (and sabot) are just straight damage nerf. I'm really puzzled by this. I would have understood a lower burst / higher rof, but why just a straight nerf ?

 

The tiny reaper lack both some DPS and a more usefull ability, but maybe not both should be buffed.

[IareDave]

Oh and i've seen devotion take on Dave's assault as a reaper in the fight club and won. Several times. It's beautiful.

 

You silly jellybean I spank his ass on the regular.

[MaNia_C]

You silly jellybean I spank his ass on the regular.

 It is nice that you spank your fellow players bottoms :). But i'm still interested in the answer to my question, if you would be kind.

[IareDave]

Do you NA guys use the reaper in competitive play? Is it viable?

 

And if not, pls explain why?

It's viable, but the SS is certainly superior in serious matches because of it's higher hp pool and stronger burst. Typically most comp. teams run 1 or on some rare occasions 2 class As so most of the time the A slot is devoted to something like the zerker or scout.

[MaNia_C]

So the answer, if i understood it correctly is :

" It's in a diminished role atm, and the slot is generally reserved for the stronger a-classes"

 

..So why wouldn't it get some buffs to bring it en par in the competitive scene?

 

..it still stands that i might have not understood the answer properly, and if not pls explain again

Edited by (KDR) MaNia_C, 25 May 2015 - 05:16 AM.

[IareDave]

So the answer, if i understood it correctly is :

" It's in a diminished role atm, and the slot is generally reserved for the stronger a-classes"

 

..So why wouldn't it get some buffs to bring it en par in the competitive scene?

 

..it still stands that i might have not understood the answer properly, and if not pls explain again

Not really. My point is that an SS is a stronger sniper with an organized team, not that the reaper is necessarily outclassed by the other As. If you were to run both reaper/ss, you'd gain a lot of mid-long range firepower but you'd lack in the cqc department. A tradeoff most teams do not want to make but it's certainly a viable combination.

[MaNia_C]

Yes, the SS/reaper combo is quite good on the maps that support the mid/long range combat format like Bazaar, Bunker and probably Frontline. But, you have to admit that the reaper atm needs some sort of refurbishing. The Meta as it is favors the remote-det / sustained mechas, and the mid/long range mechs that need line of sight can't really be as competitive as the before mentioned. Even the SS with his ability can't really be as viable on all maps as lets say the assault.

[IareDave]

Yes, the SS/reaper combo is quite good on the maps that support the mid/long range combat format like Bazaar, Bunker and probably Frontline. But, you have to admit that the reaper atm needs some sort of refurbishing. The Meta as it is favors the remote-det / sustained mechas, and the mid/long range mechs that need line of sight can't really be as competitive as the before mentioned. Even the SS with his ability can't really be as viable on all maps as lets say the assault.

I'm not a sabot player myself so I'm just going over what my team runs and what I've seen from the other top tier sabot players. A sabot is obviously not going to outdamage an assault or any sustain, and it shouldn't. It servers a different purpose than dealing max damage and that's suppression. That's less apparent in pubs where the games are disorganized and everyone isn't working together but in a serious match an SS will make a big difference.

 

As for the reaper, I'd say it's in a solid spot. It has a lot of noscope potential for cqc and is already a solid 1v1 duel pick.

[MaNia_C]

 

I'm not a sabot player myself so I'm just going over what my team runs and what I've seen from the other top tier sabot players. A sabot is obviously not going to outdamage an assault or any sustain, and it shouldn't. It servers a different purpose than dealing max damage and that's suppression. That's less apparent in pubs where the games are disorganized and everyone isn't working together but in a serious match an SS will make a big difference.

 

As for the reaper, I'd say it's in a solid spot. It has a lot of noscope potential for cqc and is already a solid 1v1 duel pick.

 

Well my view, though it may be wrong, is that both the reaper and the ss atm are "niche" mechs. The tech is also a niche mech, but the tech can be played on most maps as it serves a universal function. The ss and reaper are viable only on 3 out of the 9 maps, and in experienced matches, where the combatants are aware of the current optimal meta internal/item setup, and have good map awareness, can out corner play, close in for the kill, avoid, or just str8 up heal faster from the orb-munch setup than the ss or reaper can dish out damage. I admit there are situations where the ss/reaper excel at, but they are small in count and can't be considered as valuable and viable as other mechs can. 

 

P.M. - A sabot is obviously not going to outdamage an assault or any sustain, and it shouldn't.

Why shouldn't a sabot-B class player be able to down a assault in a str8 up cqc, when the game moved from a FPS/Moba kind of game to a more classical arena shooter quite some time ago. Shouldn't all mech's be able to get on equal ground in most situations if required?

[brackets]

I agree - the Reaper is a viable choice despite its lackluster ability and slower TTK against any mech. A 5-10 damage buff on the KE-Sabot won't make the Reaper OP. It will, however, make the Reaper a more competitive choice with the Sharpshooter. The proposed change doesn't overshadow any of the Sharpshooter's strengths over the Reaper. The SS retains stronger burst and a higher health pool, and the Sabot retains higher unscoped burst damage than the scoped KE-Sabot. It only buffs the Reaper's DPS advantage over the Sharpshooter so it actually matters.

Edited by brackets, 25 May 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[Amidatelion]

Im not sure damage is what needs a buff on the reaper. Tweaking the ability to give it some use would be more effective. Someone suggested giving it the reapers weapons a brief period of penetration like the charged breacher. Or just the KE.

Edit: Actually, on further consideration, I quite like that idea. With the reaper's higher maneuverability, that would give it some killer shield-play options.

Edited by Amidatelion, 25 May 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Veklim]

I have just gone from levelling an SS to levelling a Reaper, and I have to say the dmg boost would be lovely but not necessary. Someone already said this, but upping the RoF for the KE would make so much more sense and would balance out the issue just as well as a dmg boost.

 

The SS is an alpha strike sniper with follow-up, the Reaper is a skirmisher with a long ranged secondary. The abilities mirror this difference in the way the SS increases dmg for the strike whereas the Reaper increases accuracy for the followup primary shots. I can't duel for toffee in the SS, it's too slow, but the Reaper is a nippy lil' bugger and that makes up for a lot. They're dramatically different mechs which seem to have fallen into the 'universal sniper paradigm' which is sad because they provide radically different functions to a team.

[brackets]

Damage output typically is not tied to mech class. Vulcan Berserker will have the same TTK against any mech as the Vulcan Assault or Vulcan Brawler. Same with Flak Brawler and Flak Scout. No one's suggesting that these mechs aren't dramatically different due to the fact that they have equivalent damage output as their lighter/heavier counterparts. Hence, I'm unsure why differences between the Reaper and Sharpshooter are a reason against this suggestion.

 

The facts are the Sharpshooter has both better burst damage than the Reaper and a faster TTK against every mech without using its ability. On top of this it has a damage-modifying ability, which compounds with its higher burst and faster TTK, and a higher health pool. This is why, as IareDave states, "the SS is certainly superior in serious matches."

 

By the numbers, the Reaper has a higher DPS than the Sharpshooter. However, in effect it has both less burst and slower DPS (due to its longer TTK against every mech). Why is this desirable?

 

My suggestion is to balance the Reaper's damage output with the Sharpshooter's, just as other mechs with comparable loadouts have equivalent damage output regardless of class. The most straight forward way to do this is to simply increase the KE-Sabot's damage moderately. In the opening post I provided the damage values needed to match the Sharpshooter's TTK against the Assault with both shared primary weapons. I chose to balance against the Assault because it's one of the most prevalent mechs and has a middling armor value.

 

An alternative some of you have proposed is to instead increase the KE-Sabot's rate of fire. I chose an increase to damage because it affects both burst and DPS so a smaller change is required, whereas modifying the rate of fire only changes the DPS and hence a larger change in DPS is required for the same effect. For those interested, here are the numbers:

 

Currently the KE-Sabot fires once every 1.85 seconds.

To match the Slug-Sharpshooter's TTK against the Assault with the Slug-Reaper, the KE-Sabot would need to fire every 1.68 seconds.

To match the AM-SAR Sharpshooter's TTK against the Assault with the AM-SAR Reaper, the KE-Sabot would need to fire every 1.58 seconds.

 

Currently the KE-Sabot does 40.54 damage per second.

If the KE-Sabot's damage were increased to 80.22 (rate of fire remains unchanged), the KE-Sabot would do 43.36 damage per second (+2.82 dps).

If the KE-Sabot's damage were increased to 82.95 (rate of fire remains unchanged), the KE-Sabot would do 44.80 damage per second (+4.29 dps).

If the KE-Sabot's rate of fire were decreased to 1.68s (damage remains unchanged), the KE-Sabot would do 44.53 damage per second (+4.00 dps).

if the KE-Sabot's rate of fire were decreased to 1.58s (damage remains unchanged), the KE-Sabot would do 47.24 damage per second (+6.70 dps).

 

Note that decreasing the KE-Sabot's rate of fire instead of increasing its damage results in a significantly higher DPS increase. This has a side effect of creating a greater disparity in TTK between different mech classes compared to the Sharpshooter. With the goal of balancing the Reaper's damage output with the Sharpshooter's, the best course in my opinion is a slight increase in the KE-Sabot's damage. This is intended to be coupled with the tweaked ability option from my thread on the Reaper's special ability.

Edited by brackets, 26 May 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[Veklim]

Yeah alright, I'll go with that then. I do certianly agree the ability is somewhat lack-lustre (and only NEARLY useless, still has merit with the RPR imo). I'll go look for that other thread now....

[brackets]

For further comparison, the only other secondary weapon pair with a DPS and a burst variant is the Corsair-KLA and the Corsair-KLA XT; the Corsair-KLA on the Raider has better DPS but lower burst damage than the Corsair-KLA XT on the G2-Raider. The weapon has two modes: MIRV which deals more damage but is only effective at close range and KLA which deals less damage but is effective at longer ranges. Like the Reaper and Sharpshooter, both mechs share equivalent primary weapons (the T32-Bolt and T32-Bolt XT have equivalent stats despite different names).

 

Using the MIRV, the T32-Bolt Raider's TTK breaks even with the G2 Raider's TTK at 748 armour.

Using the KLA, the T32-Bolt Raider's TTK breaks even with the G2 Raider's TTK at 344 armour.

 

Weighting with equal use, the T32-Bolt Raider's TTK breaks even with the G2 Raider's TTK at 546 armour.

 

This is slightly below the Assault's armour, however solidly above the average armour of all B-Class mechs. Using the KLA more frequently favours the Raider against most mechs, while using the MIRV more frequently favours the G2 Raider against most mechs.

 

The choice not to tie damage output to mech class (and the sharing of weapons between mechs regardless of class) is based on the design principle that mech classes should be balanced based on their ability to avoid damage (e.g. C-class mechs have the slowest speed longest dodge timer making it most difficult to dodge secondaries or reposition behind cover, but they have the most health to compensate). The Reaper and Sharpshooter is the only mech pair which deviates from this principle.

 

Note: TTK is approximated assuming perfect accuracy based on TTK = (armour - burst)/dps.

Edited by brackets, 07 November 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[StubbornPuppet]

As a side-note to this discussion, the Reaper is still the preferred mech for aimbotters - second only to the Sharpshooter.

[brackets]

G2 Assault is also up there. That's because all three of them have two hitscan weapons. Aimbotters are awful at using projectile secondaries like the TOW because the aimbot aims where the target is - they have no prediction capability. So they lose out on a lot of damage with their secondary unless they run SS, Reaper, or G2 Assault.

[TAZ_]

Give reaper power shot abillity is enough for me.

until now, I dont clearly get the point of reaper abillity for increase the accuracy.

[MomOw]

Change reaper primary to vulcan and miniflak and enjoy its ability ?

[JackVandal]

Give reaper power shot abillity is enough for me.

until now, I dont clearly get the point of reaper abillity for increase the accuracy.

while that would be simple, i feel that its just a copy paste, it just makes the reaper more similar to the ss,

 

Im not sure damage is what needs a buff on the reaper. Tweaking the ability to give it some use would be more effective. Someone suggested giving it the reapers weapons a brief period of penetration like the charged breacher. Or just the KE.

Edit: Actually, on further consideration, I quite like that idea. With the reaper's higher maneuverability, that would give it some killer shield-play options.

iv mentioned this before, i think it should apply to all its weapons though, assuming the duration isn't huge, it should keep it balanced, while also allowing the reaper to be able to target fleeing mechs through shields as well as targets that want to drop a shield and repair inside in the open, though i personally wonder if the damage reduction on penetration would nerf its dps too much,

Edited by JackVandal, 07 November 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[EliteShooter]

If you buff Reaper I want a buff to my Infiltrator. It's already bad enough when Reaper can instantly see through my Infil cloak and kill Infil in just a few hits even if I dodge (in the air, AC ftw) all over the place.

[maxajcd]

If you buff Reaper I want a buff to my Infiltrator. It's already bad enough when Reaper can instantly see through my Infil cloak and kill Infil in just a few hits even if I dodge (in the air, AC ftw) all over the place.

are you thinking of pred?

[brackets]

 

I wonder if the damage reduction on penetration would nerf its dps too much,

Considering that such an ability would allow the Reaper to do damage where it wouldn't have been able to before, damage reduction on penetration would hardly be a nerf to DPS (still infinite percent increase). 

 

If you buff Reaper I want a buff to my Infiltrator. It's already bad enough when Reaper can instantly see through my Infil cloak and kill Infil in just a few hits even if I dodge (in the air, AC ftw) all over the place.

This thread discusses the Infiltrator's ability.

[HugeGuts]

Change reaper primary to vulcan and miniflak and enjoy its ability ?

 

Laser Vulcans, you say?

 

[Peregrim]

Note: TTK is approximated assuming perfect accuracy based on TTK = (armour - burst)/dps.

Calculating TTK like that is throwing you off; you're treating DPS as if it were continuous (multiply DPS by time to get damage) which is a reasonable assumption when damage is dealt rapidly but begins to break down when it is dealt in bursts.

 

Here's the list of mechs that the reaper will be able to kill faster with the slug rifle than the SS (without powershot):

• Technician
• Scout
• Infiltrator
• CR-T Recruit
• Bruiser
• Assault
• G2 Assault

Here's that list with powershot:

• Assault
• G2 Assault

Additionally The Reaper ties the Sharpshooter's TTK using powershot against the following mechs:

• Technician
• Scout
• Infiltrator
• Predator
• Raider
• CR-T Recruit
• Brawler

 

 

In fact, without powershot the Reaper has a perfect-accuracy TTK advantage against 7 mechs while the Sharpshooter has a perfect-accuracy TTK advantage against 7 mechs. Against 4 mechs they break even. Seems balanced to me.

[devotion]

most of the time the A slot is devoted to something like the zerker or scout.

 

A slot is devoted to something

 

devoted

huehuehue