90 replies to this topic

[capnjosh]

We've let the half-off weekend extend pretty far into the week, partly because these prices are just plain fun and partly because we wanted to see what happened after the initial sale excitement wore off. It's valuable to see that sort of thing.

 

Now it's time to bring the regular prices back - I can hear the "booooo ... hissss" now ;). However, we're going to do it a little differently. We are going to do this in stages. First up will be the mechs. We've got a hunch that the previous mech prices have introduced an unnecessary sense of Pay2Win - each mech is actually competitive in its own right, but the significant pricing differences would seem to indicate something very different. So starting today all base mech packages will be priced at 9,923HC and 948MC.  The goal is to clearly deliver the message to new users that Hawken's design goals are to be balanced and *not* Pay2Win.

 

Obviously, some mechs cost more now.  However, note that all the upgrades to a mech still cost less, thus reducing the total spend that users would sink into a mech (think of how new users need to test out a number of upgrade combinations before they find a build that works best for them).  Also, for those of you who purchased mechs at a higher price in the past, we're hoping the lowered upgrade prices will help mitigate that sense of gross injustice ;)

 

We will be adjusting the prices of the remaining products over the coming 2 weeks, so check in on the store often.  I think you'll appreciate the changes.

 

 

-capnjosh

(and yes, when in doubt, you can blame me)

[DieselCat]

 

*+

[ticklemyiguana]

<<< the closest thing to a cringe face. That's a pretty high amount - though if you significantly lower the internal and item prices this may be worth it. Also still recommending the "average required skill to use effectively" star system for mechs (ie: assault = 1 star/predator = 5 stars.)

[Ashfire908]

Now it's time to bring the regular prices back - I can hear the "booooo ... hissss" now ;). However, we're going to do it a little differently. We are going to do this in stages. First up will be the mechs.

...

We will be adjusting the prices of the remaining products over the coming 2 weeks, so check in on the store often.  I think you'll appreciate the changes.

Really I think this is just because Josh doesn't like editing 300 items all at once :)

[Dew]

TBH people who bought things when they used to be more expensive can just suck it up and deal. I know I am! (If you can't tell, it's super difficult.)

 

I feel like this is a step in the right direction... but I also feel like having less expensive mechs available was an important part of giving players more options early on. Wouldn't it be rad if you could give players a voucher for 50% off the HC cost of their first mech or something? I feel like that would give new players a bit of a jumpstart without inducing a situation where people just make a new account for each mech they want to buy.

[LadyTiggs]

Really I think this is just because Josh doesn't like editing 300 items all at once :)

 

*whistles* 

[6ixxer]

Sale still going on cosmetics? awesome. Just got my internet back and didn't want to miss my opportunity to spend my remaining thousand odd MC.

 

Due to Nemesis and some grinding, I already have most mechs (except the G2s and the sharpshooter, and if I want that there's a sweet bundle)

 

Have wanted to get some reticules, paint, etc and have been holding off hoping to get a bit more. ...then when an awesome sale comes, it happens when I had no internet!

 

Generally I spend on global unlocks, but perhaps its a good time to throw down extra cash for non-globals like new chassis, etc

[Xer06siX]

I have 240,000 HC sitting in my account. Be cool to have an ability to generate codes to donate em to other players.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

<<< the closest thing to a cringe face. That's a pretty high amount - though if you significantly lower the internal and item prices this may be worth it. Also still recommending the "average required skill to use effectively" star system for mechs (ie: assault = 1 star/predator = 5 stars.)

 

I agree with Tickle - the averaged prices are still VERY expensive. My opinion is that this is going to scare more people off than the previous mech prices. Unless you make the HC grind easier, I cannot see this current system you just implemented being any better.

 

This is the viewing I'm taking up to base my opinion on: I'm a new player, seeing this brand new game and having all sparkly eyes at all the not-so-pwetty but cool-looking mechs. I would want to try as many mechs as possible as soon as possible. Oh look, there's the the Reaper which has a different playstyle than the point-and-click Assualt. I was always a better sniper than an in your face shooter in COD (broad example, place any FPS game here), I'd prefer to play that style. Oh, what is this? Every mech the same price!? And it's 9923!? I've only got 4000HC after 5-10 matches! I don't have the patience for this. *uninstall*

 

I've already seen this before this patch - people think that the grind to get anything is terrible. They also think that the game is like an everyday FPS (*seething* It's. Not. *eye twitch*) and so they disregard the game before giving it a fair trial. With the Assualt, it truly is like an everyday FPS (don't hate - it's the truth) - point, shoot, kill at a startling rate. And no, I am not suggesting to change the Assault as the starter mech - just give the player a greater amount of choice.

 

But this is just my theory, maybe I'm just completely wrong and people would think that this does work better. I'm fine with that - whichever one gets more players.

[6ixxer]

 I would want to try as many mechs as possible as soon as possible. Oh look, there's the the Reaper which has a different playstyle than the point-and-click Assualt. I was always a better sniper than an in your face shooter in COD (broad example, place any FPS game here), I'd prefer to play that style. Oh, what is this? Every mech the same price!? And it's 9923!? I've only got 4000HC after 5-10 matches! I don't have the patience for this. *uninstall*

 

You cannot give people patience.

 

I've had to grind over 12K HC for some mechs and it was fine. I'm not whinging that I want 3K refund on those. Free games NEED to be a bit grindy to encourage the all important monetization of impatient people. I was one of them, I bought Nemesis on day 1 of steam release cos I wasn't going to wait for the free release and then grind all those mechs.

 

Want it now? you can have it, here's the Buy MC button.

If not sure you want to spend HC until you like the playstyle, you wait for a test drive.

Waiting for the incinerator test drive all that time back was tough. I wanted that phat mech soo bad.

[Sylhiri]

Seems pretty cheap compared to other games but come on, could you not just round it to 9900 and 950? Was the extra 23 HC going to make that much of a difference?

[(Unknown)157a3decb342f5]

You've got to be fuzzy bunnyng kidding me. I saved up >12000 HC to buy a single mech, made a thread saying how this is fuzzy bunny, and now you lower the price of that mech without any compensation. The two mechs I was focusing on next were the reaper and the brawler, both ~3000 HC, and you raise those?

 

 

fuzzy bunny this game, and fuzzy bunny you.

Edited by TestHAWKEN001, 03 June 2015 - 11:22 PM.

[IareDave]

You've got to be fuzzy bunnyng kidding me. I saved up >12000 HC to buy a single mech, made a thread saying how this is fuzzy bunny, and now you lower the price of that mech without any compensation. The two mechs I was focusing on next were the reaper and the brawler, both ~3000 HC, and you raise those?


fuzzy bunny this game, and fuzzy bunny you.

Perhaps send a support ticket instead of sounding like a childish twat.

:)

[(Unknown)157a3decb342f5]

Perhaps send a support ticket instead of sounding like a childish twat.

:)

Oh, why thank you so much Mr. IhavenoproblemswithhawkenbecauseImnumber1inmmrandhaveallthethingssoitsreallyhardformetounderstandthefrustrationthatcomeswiththenewplayerexperience.

Maybe you could share a link instead of half assing your suggestion like a childish twat?

:)

PS: Do you really think they're going to refund me HC on account of what I planned to do based on how the mechs have been priced for what I can gather, years? I'm not sure, but something tells me no.

Edited by TestHAWKEN001, 03 June 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

I still kind of sort of definitely stand by the position of giving players one free mech of their choosing as well as the starting mech. I've thought it for some time, so perhaps I'm just stating the obvious here, but this would give new players the feeling of customization early on. This is a nice thing.

[EM1O]

PS: Do you really think they're going to refund me HC on account of what I planned to do based on how the mechs have been priced for what I can gather, years? I'm not sure, but something tells me no.

Counter-Rant:

Compared to a couple years ago, the folks that own the game now will at least talk to you. They've coughed up cash-value MC promised-but-not-delivered by ADH to grateful players here, modified the HC and MC physics of the revenue system here to overall benefit the community, and have given us a lot of hope and encouragement.

You'll never know what sort of help they'd be willing to extend to players, unless you sit down and ASK.

'Course, by ranting on them straight off for your imagined "they" response, which you haven't even communicated with them for yet, sort of burned that bridge to a crisp.

End Counter-Rant

 

TL/DR:

Don't expect a whole crapload of folks here to do much more than snicker at the little kid throwing a tantrum (i've spewed better while rekt to the rafters), much less sympathize with you.

 

edit; link is the "Get Support" thingy on Playhawken.com landing page. Sorta obvious, but what the heck:  https://hawken.zende...us/requests/new

Edited by em1o, 04 June 2015 - 01:02 AM.

[6ixxer]

Perhaps like previous suggestions that many new pilots don't know they can customize, you could give new players a tutorial and once off coupon for 50% off their first mech purchase.

 

Its all well and good to say give away free stuff, but it doesn't pay the Devs wages. Sometimes you just need to break-the-seal so to speak on the pilots wallet. If it is free then it sets the wrong anchor price.

 

I used to play games where they every 2-3 months they'd have a sale. One would be discounted credits, eg 50% more credits for same money. 2-3 months later would be 50% off items. A patient player could get triple item value. Instead of buying 1000 to get something worth 1000; they could buy 1500 for same money, wait a while and then get 3 items that were 1000 but reduced to half.

 

Many players who aren't patient would get cheap credits and spend immediately with no item discounts, or get credits without discount when items are on sale (the next best option as you get 100% more items rather than just 50% more credit). The alternating sales rewards people for staying longer.

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[System64]

It would be cool to have an ability to generate codes to donate em to other players.

YES!!!

[hoghead]

.

Edited by hoghead, 20 June 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[EM1O]

@hoghead:

one of nice lingering aftereffects of the (successful) AV-chemo was my cholesterol, high BP, and the hypo-thyroid all leveled out to normal healthy values. doc sez i have a better chance of dying in a car wreck than from health concerns, now.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

My previous comment seems to hold a bit more proof behind it: https://community.pl...nd-yet-annoyed/

 

A recent post on the forums of a new player who quit the game because of the new mech pricing and the grind. Basically what my entire friend group did. Now please keep that in your mind about these mech pricings. Please.

[Panzermanathod]

I think there still should be a few cheap mechs. Even with lower item/internal prices it doesn't quite make up for the cheaper mechs to jump up 6K in price. For the ones that cost around 7K, yeah, I get it, but not the 3K ones.

[comic_sans]

I find it odd that evening/raising the average price per mech is a move designed to dispel a p2w attitude.  Maybe to show that all the mechs are viable, but having to earn (or pay) more on average seems at cross purposes.

Edited by &THC& comic_sans, 04 June 2015 - 04:29 AM.

[Hijinks_The_Turtle]

This is an interesting first step.  It's a bit high of an HC price, but I'm surprised that an idea similar to mine was implemented.

[(Unknown)157a3decb342f5]

Counter-Rant:
Compared to a couple years ago, the folks that own the game now will at least talk to you. They've coughed up cash-value MC promised-but-not-delivered by ADH to grateful players here, modified the HC and MC physics of the revenue system here to overall benefit the community, and have given us a lot of hope and encouragement.
You'll never know what sort of help they'd be willing to extend to players, unless you sit down and ASK.
'Course, by ranting on them straight off for your imagined "they" response, which you haven't even communicated with them for yet, sort of burned that bridge to a crisp.
End Counter-Rant

TL/DR:
Don't expect a whole crapload of folks here to do much more than snicker at the little kid throwing a tantrum (i've spewed better while rekt to the rafters), much less sympathize with you.


edit; link is the "Get Support" thingy on Playhawken.com landing page. Sorta obvious, but what the heck: https://hawken.zende...us/requests/new

Developers did developer things? No way! You know what else is a developer thing? Retaining their fuzzy bunnyng player base!

Edited by TestHAWKEN001, 04 June 2015 - 07:07 AM.

[Meraple]

PS: Do you really think they're going to refund me HC on account of what I planned to do based on how the mechs have been priced for what I can gather, years? I'm not sure, but something tells me no.

I'm fairly sure the game's still in beta, which means things may change.

If you don't like change, playing beta games is usually not for you.

[EM1O]

Developers did developer things? No way! You know what else is a developer thing? Retaining their fuzzy bunnyng player base!

Uh, no. That post referred to the owners, not their employees.  ReLoaded determines what specific approach is to be used, and the developers do as they're told. Being able to communicate with developers is the most ideal way to caress that arrangement, as they tend to know more about the heart of the game than management does (and if owners are smart, they'll listen to them).

Trolling them isn't going to win you points.

Edited by em1o, 04 June 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[nepacaka]

Obviously, some mechs cost more now.  However, note that all the upgrades to a mech still cost less, thus reducing the total spend that users would sink into a mech (think of how new users need to test out a number of upgrade combinations before they find a build that works best for them)

 

less price for iternals and items!

for the great justice!

 

and bring kill / death in score table!

Edited by nepacaka, 04 June 2015 - 10:48 AM.

[BaronSaturday]

You've got to be fuzzy bunnyng kidding me. I saved up >12000 HC to buy a single mech, made a thread saying how this is fuzzy bunny, and now you lower the price of that mech without any compensation. The two mechs I was focusing on next were the reaper and the brawler, both ~3000 HC, and you raise those?


fuzzy bunny this game, and fuzzy bunny you.

Googoo booboo droopy dog doodoo. You know how many mechs I bought at 12k? You can checkif you want. This beta. Beta id beta. You should probably understand what you're signing up for before you sign up for it and then whine when things change.

[(Unknown)157a3decb342f5]

Googoo booboo droopy dog doodoo. You know how many mechs I bought at 12k? You can checkif you want. This beta. Beta id beta. You should probably understand what you're signing up for before you sign up for it and then whine when things change.

aaaahhhahahahah yeah, buddy? That's some sound logic there. "Nhhefh but I paid this much so fdshkukjhlfdskhj you know it's like...totally viable, because like. I did it, nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn."

Edited by TestHAWKEN001, 04 June 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[BaronSaturday]

aaaahhhahahahah yeah, buddy? That's some sound logic there. "Nhhefh but I paid this much so fdshkukjhlfdskhj you know it's like...totally viable, because like. I did it, nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn."

So you don't actually have a valid argument then.

[LaurenEmily]

[(Unknown)157a3decb342f5]

So you don't actually have a valid argument then.

No. no. I don't, because you didn't present me with anything to argue against. Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence. It's a single data point and it's heavily biased.

 

So remind me what I'm supposed to be arguing against here?

[DM30]

+1 to keeping some lower-priced mech options to make branching out into other play styles easier early on. The brawler was a good fit because it was a relatively easy point+click play style while exposing players to C classes. Also, it shuts down p2w arguments because I would call it arguably the strongest C class mech because of its sheer fat and high damage. Reaper was good too because again, different play style, and while weaker than the SS it's also more forgiving (shorter reloading secondary, precision ability for when you're caught at close range).

 

If the desire is to keep all mechs the same price, then I love the idea of a 50% (or even more) discount on first mech purchase. Also, I think discounted item/internal prices either on this first purchase or on the starting Assault would allow people to experiment with builds without punishing them for bad choices like the current system does.

 

For the overall grind, I would say leave prices at around their current level and just substantially increase HC earnings in game. People like seeing big numbers on rewards, I think, so even if the prices are high if they're making a lot of currency I doubt they would mind so much.

[FuzzyCupcake]

oh man i download and play a bit and come back to have my dreams to own cheap mech crushed

 

i have a fred and 4564 hc so its not all bad :D 

[Sylhiri]

oh man i download and play a bit and come back to have my dreams to own cheap mech crushed

 

i have a fred and 4564 hc so its not all bad :D 

 

You also get the fully loaded assualt from that one promo code.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

I would also be very annoyed if a price lowered hours after I bought it. The difference is about 25%.

 

You also get the fully loaded assualt from that one promo code.

The code is LOADEDASSAULT if I recall correctly.

 

I find it odd that evening/raising the average price per mech is a move designed to dispel a p2w attitude.  Maybe to show that all the mechs are viable, but having to earn (or pay) more on average seems at cross purposes.

 

*: Stats for HC prices of mechs come from Salty Stats spreadsheet. Available here

 

Note how the average (AVG) in the old system is higher than that of the new system.

 

Previous AVG: 10412.75 HC

Current AVG (Post-standardization): 9923 HC

Net Difference: -489.75

 

The original AVG has been decreased by ~4.70%.

 

My personal thoughts: The change lowered the average by an insignificant amount. Despite the higher average, the previous system made a small number of mechs easily accessible, thereby providing new players accessible points with which to diversify their gameplay experience. In this sense, to any new players, the majority of new gameplay content will remain behind an apparently insurmountable (or otherwise distasteful) grind. That is to say, this new system is not much better than the previous system.

 

By system I mean the set of relationships between price points, grind rewards, time of grind required, player experience.

 

Dew's suggestion regarding discount coupons for new players represents a great solution.

 

I would recommend a small set of coupons for new players that have a gradient of price points. E.g. new players entering the mech store are greeted with the following: "Welcome new player! To help you start off on the right foot in Hawken, you have been provided with one 75% Off HC/MC Mech coupon, one 50% Off Mech HC/MC coupon, and one 25% Off Mech HC/MC coupon. Use them well!"

 

As demonstrated by this offering, there is a limited number of coupons available and the discounts represented by each coupon are totally ordered. Each discount N1, N2, N3, ... , Nn do not equal another.

 

This provides players with a relatively lenient but existent pressure with which to spend their currencies.

 

EDIT: The example coupon set I provided provides a total of 14884.5 HC in savings. This is 1.5x that of the standardized price. That is to say new players would effectively have 1.5 free mechs. However, this is not equivalent to 1.5 mechs in terms of game experience due to the fact that such a graduated set of discounts provides time for the player to become progressively accustomed to the grind length.

Edited by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, 04 June 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Nightfirebolt]

I have 240,000 HC sitting in my account. Be cool to have an ability to generate codes to donate em to other players.

 

This might open the floodgates to chinese bot farmers leeching in our matches and spamming stuff like:

 

"P V P B A N K . C O M Very good price $1 USD = 5000 HC delivery 24 hour gaurantee very happy good yes"

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

This might open the floodgates to chinese bot farmers leeching in our matches and spamming stuff like:

 

"P V P B A N K . C O M Very good price $1 USD = 5000 HC delivery 24 hour gaurantee very happy good yes"

 

Sounds like the start of a new player base in Asia.

[JeffMagnum]

I see there's no indication of the forums dramawave letting up any time soon. 

 

On topic, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the change. The average price has decreased by a little under 500 HC, but the price barrier to purchasing at least one mech has been raised significantly. The one-time coupon a few people brought up seems to be an easy and effective way to get around that.

 

I think there needs to be a holistic approach to fixing the buyer's remorse/P2W misconception issues instead of just a price adjustment though. It'd be nice to completely overhaul the in-game mech descriptions and weapon stats, because as of now, players just can't make informed decisions with the info they're given. The weapon stat bars are misleading at best, and actual raw data for mechs is hard to compare and likely overwhelming for new players anyway. A difficulty rating would be helpful as well, but how that'd best be determined without running into accusations of elitism is a little difficult to say.