43 replies to this topic

[CraftyDus]

https://www.reddit.c...e_with_a_dying/

 

 

Edited by Drafty Krust, 30 August 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[Shoutaxeror]

Spoiler

[Broham78]

Was just about to post this. Plebbit everybody.

[Aregon]

Spoiler

Problem with calling something P2W is that it is more often than not a highly subjective opinion. In Hawken you are able to buy everything with money before you get enough HC or high enough level. In higher tiers this isn`t much of a problem, but in lower tiers it is.

[kaiserschmarrn_]

[ticklemyiguana]

At first I was all "fuzzy bunny these guys"
But the fact of the matter is that at one point they were all potential customers. Those top posts are all quite obviously incorrect, and we as players who have stuck around know that - but they don't. This is apparently a widely accepted opinion.

Doing things like giving players a choice of multiple mechs at the beginning seriously needs to be reconsidered. For my own egotistic purposes, you all need to know that I have been saying this ever since this was even a discussion.

(Of course once that does happen, money still needs to be invested in an ad campaign to attract new players.)

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 30 August 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[comic_sans]

Man, that is some robust ignorance in that thread.

[Shoutaxeror]

Problem with calling something P2W is that it is more often than not a highly subjective opinion. In Hawken you are able to buy everything with money before you get enough HC or high enough level. In higher tiers this isn`t much of a problem, but in lower tiers it is.

 

Now that you have a fully equiped Assault, I find this argument very invalid. I suppose noobs just think that alternate weapons are necessarily better. Meh, they probably leave before unlocking an EOC repeater.

[kaiserschmarrn_]

Now that you have a fully equiped Assault, I find this argument very invalid. I suppose noobs just think that alternate weapons are necessarily better. Meh, they probably leave before unlocking an EOC repeater.

eoc skrub

git good

bad haikus

[DerMax]

The guys are right — the game makes it look like it is P2W, even though it isn't. You know who is at fault? The imbecile Adhesive game designers, one of the most inept dev teams I have seen in my life.

[nepacaka]

yep. they don't deserve for rekt...

sometimes i don't understand, why 95% people on our planets are idiots.
(obviously, i'm talking about reddit guys)

 

the game makes it look like it is P2W, even though it isn't. You know who is at fault?

 

yes, devs failed some thing, but some people also failed in this so much, because they just don't thinking, and think all around donut and win. people do not want to think a head. it is a problem not only in the game, but also in our everyday life

Edited by nepacaka, 30 August 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[DieselCat]

I'm an idiot sometimes...I admit it 

 

My wife will be the first one to tell you that.

 

*+

Edited by DieselCat, 30 August 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Aregon]

Now that you have a fully equiped Assault, I find this argument very invalid. I suppose noobs just think that alternate weapons are necessarily better. Meh, they probably leave before unlocking an EOC repeater.

Yeah I partially agree with you on that I was wrong, but it is like Tickle said: it doesn`t matter what we know about this game, if the first impression by many is that the game is P2W. 

[nepacaka]

My wife will be the first one to tell you that.

 

wifes created for this

 

I suppose noobs just think that alternate weapons are necessarily better.

 

this is problem, because in game you not see something like this
weapon damage = 15, DPS = 50, Rate of fire...etc.

instead of this you don't see nothing. no numbers at all. bad.

Edited by nepacaka, 30 August 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[nepacaka]

Also, most of these people leave similar comments/phrases for absolutely Any game. the only game they praise it is dota2 or CS.

but too bad that other people can build an opinion, based on someone else's opinion.

[DieselCat]

Yeah I partially agree with you on that I was wrong, but it is like Tickle said: it doesn`t matter what we know about this game, if the first impression by many is that the game is P2W. 

 

Yes, even if people's first impression is wrong about something or someone because they don't have all the facts....you are has you are perceived,  even though that perception may be incorrect.

 

So people that first join into playing Hawken may and many times do get the wrong impression about it being P2W, though I think the F2P model could stand a few tweeks here and there,  it's still not a P2W game by any means.

 

One of the many tasks still needed on the dev's honey-do-list is to change that perception so new players will join and stay...more people playing is the name of the game.

 

*+

[nepacaka]

maybe we should write some positive reviews where we can talk (tell others about the game) about game, about mechs, about weapons and about fun. well, you will always lose in propaganda war, if you do not participate in it. and we all know how great propaganda work...

 

 

for example, long time ago (probably, too late, i should made it early :C ), i write a super-fun-guide for russian community in steam. it's contain a lot of jokes and easy to read. and have a tonnes of interesting text (i mean, even player who not play in game can easily understand it)

in this guide a tell people about all mech and their weapons and abilities.

in this guide i start from phrase "hawken is not P2W..." and tell reader why hawken better than other games, why hawken not grind, and why elite weapons not better than default weapon. and tell about our russian sites where players may get a help and asking a questions.

 

it is here (for examples):

http://steamcommunit...5&insideModal=1

 

but obviously, you can't read it even if you want, because google can't translate my jokes, funnies words, and sarcasms

Edited by nepacaka, 30 August 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[LarryLaffer]

The guys are right — the game makes it look like it is P2W, even though it isn't.

Maybe I miss something, but I don't understand why people keep thinking that Hawken is p2w. It was my first f2p title, and I didn't feel like I was pwned by some guys who paid real money for game stuff. I played 5 more f2p titles and didn't see any complaints about pay2win in them, while grind in this games requires much more time (Nosgoth, Heroes of the Storm, League of Legends).

 

So we need to understand why people keep getting wrong impressions about Hawken.

[nepacaka]

Maybe I miss something, but I don't understand why people keep thinking that Hawken is p2w.

 

because they think you can buy elite-weapon by MC and kill everything like a pro. people think that this weapon just better. + they think that mech ranking too long and hard (we all know it is not true,if compared with other f2p, but they think wrong)

Edited by nepacaka, 30 August 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[DieselCat]

maybe we should write some positive reviews where we can talk (tell others about the game) about game, about mechs, about weapons and about fun. well, you will always lose in propaganda war, if you do not participate in it. and we all know how great propaganda work...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I still post Hawken related game-play material on FB and twitter 

 

*+

[LarryLaffer]

because they think you can buy elite-weapon by MC and kill everything like a pro. people think that this weapon just better. + they think that mech ranking too long and hard (we all know it is not true,if compared with other f2p, but they think wrong)

#getridofrankings then. Or mech rank and pilot rank can serve for another purposes besides restriction to unlock prestige weapons and advanced internals.

[JeffMagnum]

More grinding than Warframe or League

 

fuzzy bunnyng lol

[nepacaka]

warframe is actually have a nightmare grind, almost infinity, where you should ranked up you warframes/weapons/droids over and over again with forma and always play in wave defending to make it faster...and you can't get maximum abilities without donut...

 

probably it is a #1 grind game in a world. But!... I do not know why, but that does not interfere the game. and in some ways even is beneficial. maybe because the game has a ton of content, and warframe not PvP. you just play like in Diablo.

Edited by nepacaka, 30 August 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Sylhiri]

Maybe I miss something, but I don't understand why people keep thinking that Hawken is p2w. It was my first f2p title, and I didn't feel like I was pwned by some guys who paid real money for game stuff. I played 5 more f2p titles and didn't see any complaints about pay2win in them, while grind in this games requires much more time (Nosgoth, Heroes of the Storm, League of Legends).

 

So we need to understand why people keep getting wrong impressions about Hawken.

 

F2P has it's own stigma for P2W due to some large game hosting companies making bad decisions or hosting games from game developers who lives in an area where P2W is more accepted as the norm. When people play those games several times or a P2W F2P is their first PC or online title they get it in their head that F2P and P2W go hand in hand. As soon as they see real money transactions for anything game related they make rash judgments from experience.

Edited by Sylhiri, 30 August 2015 - 01:02 PM.

[crockrocket]

That made me sad

[nepacaka]

it is actually an anti-PR from people who even not play in game (ok, play one hour and don't understand nothing in game)
i'm just interesting what they think about Mechwarrior online :D

[ATX22]

warframe is actually have a nightmare grind, almost infinity, where you should ranked up you warframes/weapons/droids over and over again with forma and always play in wave defending to make it faster...and you can't get maximum abilities without donut...

 

probably it is a #1 grind game in a world. But!... I do not know why, but that does not interfere the game. and in some ways even is beneficial. maybe because the game has a ton of content, and warframe not PvP. you just play like in Diablo.

 

Warframe's initial grind is a nightmare, the rest isn't that bad if you know what you're doing.  If you join a clan, get some help, and taxi to locations that are best for what you need like credits, XP, or resources, building or leveling what you want isn't that bad, even when starting out.  Thing is, grinding in Warframe gets you something new, makes your weapons or warframe more powerful.  There's something to work towards.  If you make it past the first four or five planets on the solar map and are still having trouble, you should probably ask around for help because you're doing something wrong.  You can forma, and bring a weapon or warframe to max rank in no time if you know where to go, without any boosters or using your daily log-in bonus.

 

The grind in Hawken does give you access to different mechs and weapons, but they're all basically side-grades, some more unique than others, sure.. but you're only getting past the grind or pay walls to get at stuff, of which there isn't a whole lot of in Hawken.  Currently Hawken's end game also seems to be reaching a point where the MM drops you into a queue that puts the DMV to shame, limits you to maybe 4 or 5 servers, and where you must hold back unless you want to empty out the server you're lucky enough to be allowed to play on when you do get to play.

 

Back on topic: Because of how many other developers handle ranking or leveling something in F2P games, someone who's new at a low pilot level, running around in the starter mech, getting obliterated by a scout or incinerator that's maxed out... they're going to scream P2W, or when it involves a smurf, scream hax.

Edited by ATX22, 30 August 2015 - 03:43 PM.

[comic_sans]

At one point, someone in that thread says that there's a katana in warframe that is one of the best weapons that you can't even get until you've gotten proficient with a range of weapons, and this was touted as an example of it being done right, which is strange, because I read it as multiple guns/abilities I need to level before I can be on an even playing field. Something tells me warframe does the micro-reward dopamine fuzzy bunny I keep talking about, and they do it well.

 

At another point, someone said they quit hawken because they said it had too many missions.  What?

 

And at least a dozen times, someone said "it looked cool but after reading this thread and learning it was p2w I said nope" which was sincerely distressing to read.

 

Hawken really is hard for noobs to get into, especially at this (unfortunately) barren stage;  when I was getting into it, the entire game changed at least twice, which kept it interesting for me (holy crap someone who didn't mind ascension?!? or the steam patch??!? or adapting?! asdf) and kinda leveled the playing field a hair against vets.  I really am sadly out of touch with that end of things.

Edited by clomic_snuts, 30 August 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[ATX22]

You're probably talking about the dragon nikana.  It's OK.  I'd rather use the jat kittag.

 

Don't forget though, Warframe is primarily PVE, Hawken is primarily PVP.  In PVE, everyone doesn't need to be on an even playing field, you're all on the same team against computer controlled enemies.

[JeffMagnum]

At one point, someone in that thread says that there's a katana in warframe that is one of the best weapons that you can't even get until you've gotten proficient with a range of weapons, and this was touted as an example of it being done right, which is strange, because I read it as multiple guns/abilities I need to level before I can be on an even playing field. Something tells me warframe does the micro-reward dopamine fuzzy bunny I keep talking about, and they do it well.

 

Getting that (guessing it's a Dragon Nikana but I haven't played in forever) without paying or relying on other players is actually far more convoluted than you're imagining.

 

Basically: rank up weapons/warframes to get to Mastery Rank 4 since the Nikana (a weaker version) is level gated-> create a clan and wait 12 hours for the dojo to build-> construct a room in it with resources that are random drops and take 24 hours each to build where you can research blueprints for particular weapons/WFs-> put resources toward researching a plain Nikana and wait 36 hours for that to complete-> buy the blueprint after it finishes-> start crafting it and wait 12 hours for that to finish-> rank up a lot more weapons/WFs to get to MR 8 since the Dragon Nikana is also level gated-> buy that blueprint from the market-> build it using the Nikana and rarish resources and wait 12 hours for it to complete

 

For one weapon.

 

but hawken grind too hard

Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 August 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[comic_sans]

I didn't know Warframe is mainly PVE since I don't know much about it, so oops on that.

[JeffMagnum]

It's a huge RNG grindfest, but that's kind of the point of it. It can be pretty alright especially if just want to mindlessly waste time for a while, but you can easily spend 1k hours on it and not have close to everything currently available to you, much less the unobtainable mods and weapons from past events which can be extremely powerful. The dynamics of PvE and PvP are obviously extremely different and hypothetical P2W isn't as bad with the former, but it's amazing that people in that thread somehow believe WF's and Hawken's grinds are even remotely similar. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 30 August 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[SS396]

Well, that certainly is an interesting read for a few minutes.

 

I myself think that veterans (with different weapons and mechs) beating up on new players is what these uninformed people are mistaking as P2W.  If Hawken is going to survive it must overcome the instant pay 2 win conclusions drawn by the uniformed.  The question is how, and is it already too late.

[Nept]

People are going to draw pay2win conclusions the moment there's the smallest iota of opportunity.  Almost need to have THIS IS NOT PAY2WIN: THESE PPL ARE JUST BETTER THAN YOU flashing constantly across the screen on death.

[ATX22]

People are going to draw pay2win conclusions the moment there's the smallest iota of opportunity.  Almost need to have THIS IS NOT PAY2WIN: THESE PPL ARE JUST BETTER THAN YOU flashing constantly across the screen on death.

 

And then people would take screenshots and scream "Look! SEE!  It's so bad even the developers are trying to deny it!", or something along those lines.

 

As long as there are micro-transactions in a game, there are going to be people screaming P2W.

[JackVandal]

To be honest, i think the best plan is to bide our time and once Reloaded has Hawken back up to full snuff with a team and some content we can hit with changing perceptions, we wanna attract attention once Hawken looks and feels more like a finished project.

[6ixxer]

I have never seen any pay to win aspect in Hawken, only Pay-to-be-lazy-and-avoid-the-grind and Pay-for-cool-mech-pyjamas-etc.

 

Are there any Hawken Redditors helping these people see the inaccuracy in their posts? Should Josh/Tiggs have a presence on Reddit to post their graphs and updates on balance and HC sales, etc that reinforces the non-p2w-ness?

 

Cheers,

6ixxer

[Sorroritas]

I have never seen any pay to win aspect in Hawken

*snip*

I remember at some point in the past there were, I don't remember how they were called "addons"? "countermeasures"?, that changed gameplay in a slight pay-to-win aspect.

 

There were three of em. One for removing heat automatically when your mech overheated. One for powering up your weapons after you got hit by an emp and another one I don't remember at the moment. You started with 30 pieces of em and could only buy them with MC if I remember correctly. (No, not the ones we got nowadays, there was no bot coop at that time)

 

But that was a long time ago (2-3 years+?).

So yes, game's far from that these days.

Edited by Sorroritas, 31 August 2015 - 04:37 AM.

[PoopSlinger]

"

In short, the game got ruined by the P2W model forced on us by the board, who wanted to copy the success of LOL. We also had huge expectations that we could never live up to at launch, and a "corporate" office that did nothing, but ate through more budget than the game team.

I wish we'd been able to make it a cheap steam game with a small studio and we'd have been able to keep it running . We were an amazingly passionate team and loved the game we were making.

Also I personally wanted to see it be one life per match and the pace slowed down, with more strategy. At least in one game mode. Just never got the time.

The "devs" were not the problem. We had an amazing art team and I worked hard to facilitate the graphical vision they had without compromising gameplay. Every problem with this game came from the top down. When our producer was threatened with being fired if he didn't do exactly as told, we really had our hands tied. The mistake the founders made, and regret, was relinquishing control to an executive team that knew nothing about games.  "

 

Post from the Reddit thread.  He tells everyone exactly why its ded and gets ignored by how stupid reddit is.  I'm glad he didn't get to slow down the game pace though.

[crockrocket]

snip

I'm really glad I scrolled down far enough to read that

 

 

 

As far as the rest of the thread goes, this is exactly why you don't advertise prematurely. 

Edited by (TDM)crockrocket, 31 August 2015 - 10:28 AM.