33 replies to this topic

[Anichkov3]

I search for the old discussion of this topic. But I could not find the old theme. 

 

I wanted to ask. Somebody suggested to use special programs to equalize ping players or not? There are special programs allowing to make an increase (delay) ping. If you think about it. People who refuse to smooth in terms of ping of the match, only one. Demonstrate unwillingness to lose the advantage over other players (very low ping).

 

As everyone knows, I do not play in chess tournaments because they do not consider Hawken as a competition game. But he decided to share the idea. And maybe someone even interested.

 

The format of the tournament will take place in two stages.

 

1) Qualifying tournament in the regions. Separately, Europe and USA.

 

2) The tournament between the two best teams in Europe and America. The tournament will take place as follows:

-      3 matches are held on the server in Europe (Ping all participants = biggest ping players - 10ms)

-      3 matches are held on the server in USA (Ping all participants = biggest ping players - 10ms)

According to the results of 6 matches the conclusion - who is the winner. 

[Chickin]

USA is stronger, end of discussion.

But then, there is Asia.

[Hyginos]

We take weeks to organize a single 6v6 match within a time zone area that's only 3 hours wide. Getting a match played across the pond would be a logistical nightmare.

Edited by Hyginos, 10 November 2015 - 06:29 AM.

[Dr_Freeze001]

The problem with increasing ping is that, while the idea makes sense, the execution won't give expected results. You won't be making it equal, but worse for all players, like asking EU players to play on NA servers and NA to play on EU servers. It's gonna be a bad time for everyone involved.

 

Unless people travel to a single location and play in the same room cross-continental competition will be very problematic.

[KarlSchlag]

 

---

 

I wanted to ask. Somebody suggested to use special programs to equalize ping players or not? There are special programs allowing to make an increase (delay) ping.

 

---

 

If Hawken would have a LAN mode, maybe Tunngle would work... No?

 

http://www.tunngle.net/en/

[Amidatelion]

No.

[Maxunarul]

Excellent idea

 

Hopefully succeed organize

 

 

Edited by Maxunarul, 10 November 2015 - 07:51 AM.

[The_Silencer]

I've seen many very very very good pilots playing in the EU region... just FYI.. =)

[Dawn_of_Ash]

No.

 

Why the short answer?

 

I would suggest instead of using a third-party program, that everyone just moves to a server in another region. Shouldn't be problematic since there's almost no one else in the world except US and EU.

 

 

USA is stronger, end of discussion.

But then, there is Asia.

 

This is so true. As having Asia has my "sister server" to say. But I doubt that US would have a completely wipe out, but they do have an advantage due to TPG.

[Dawn_of_Ash]

The problem with increasing ping is that, while the idea makes sense, the execution won't give expected results. You won't be making it equal, but worse for all players, like asking EU players to play on NA servers and NA to play on EU servers. It's gonna be a bad time for everyone involved.

 

As a person who has experienced 350+ ping playing in America for a year, I can say that it depends on what ping. 200-250 ping is definitely manageable. 300-350 ping is still sort of manageable but it'd be best to use hits-can weapons. Anything about 350 though is going to hurt how people have fun.

 

As for having a bad time for everyone involved, it truly depends on the people and their mindset. I've met people who have been willing to go into other servers and have fun with people on them with 300+ ping just out of the good of their heart. This tournament is more about people who can deal with it instead of sitting in their spoilt servers and not trying to sympathize while the rest of the servers goes to hell.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 10 November 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Amidatelion]

Why the short answer?

 

I would suggest instead of using a third-party program, that everyone just moves to a server in another region. Shouldn't be problematic since there's almost no one else in the world except US and EU.

 

 

1. Because it would prove very little. There is so much compromise in playing at higher pings that at no point would it be a real test of players skills or capabilities.
2. Every time someone who isn't a comp or top-tier player (and even then sometimes) suggests this it is nothing but a troll or idiotic, pseudo-patriotic regional fuzzy bunny-waving attempt. The past two or three times this has been suggested, the people doing the suggesting have had no capability of performing at a competitive level in terms of skill, experience or teamwork.
3. Priority Target.

[Meraple]

Anything about 350 though is going to hurt how people have fun.

Me and most of my friends here in Europe plainly don't have fun with a ping over ~120.

We get frustrated.

 

 

I've met people who have been willing to go into other servers and have fun with people on them with 300+ ping just out of the good of their heart.

The way you worded it, those people you met were willing to have fun with 300+ ping.

That's more about what that person considers fun, rather than "the good of their heart".

I don't consider playing with a ping of over 120 fun - I'm too used to my 16-20 ping.

 

 

This tournament is more about people who can deal with it instead of sitting in their spoilt servers and not trying to sympathize while the rest of the servers goes to hell.

It's not about "not trying to sympathize" as playing with high ping plainly isn't enjoyable for some people.

Most people won't play a game that's supposed to be fun, in a way they don't enjoy.

[Merl61]

General consensus is that NA players are the best in the world. There are a few in EU that come close to the NA top 10 (Meraple, DerMax, Kopra) but none I would consider to be solidly in the NA top 10. We will never REALLY know until Josh decides to fly us all to Cali for a LAN ( ?° ?? ?°)

[Dawn_of_Ash]

 

1. Every time someone who isn't a comp or top-tier player (and even then sometimes) suggests this it is nothing but a troll or idiotic, pseudo-patriotic regional fuzzy bunny-waving attempt. The past two or three times this has been suggested, the people doing the suggesting have had no capability of performing at a competitive level in terms of skill, experience or teamwork

 

 

Ouch.

 

Care to explain why it is troll, idiotic, pseudo-patriotic regional etc, etc? How would you feel if a game had abandoned you and does not help to get you back on your feet and everyone around also refuses to help and keeps making more and more events to exclude, rejecting you and ignoring you just because your a minority? What do you think this sounds like?

 

I'm angry at how people ignore minorities of this community because they don't share a similar something-or-other. I know my opinions are not popular and I can accept that. I can even accept that I'm likely not going to play many games without 350+ ping. I cannot accept people outright diss-ing and saying its a bad idea when they have everything (or close to everything) I envy and I want. Bluntly and without sympathy for those that do suffer because of under-population - problem that is not even caused by them. I again want to ask, what do you think this sounds like?

 

Maybe everyone else knows better than me in this case - as Meraple had said 120 ping is too much for them while I average that on my home-server.

 

But whatever. I'm a minority in this situation and I will be ignored. I'll just accept that as well.

 

Also Amid, care to prove your skill? ;P I'd likely not beat you, but it may be fun.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 10 November 2015 - 10:25 PM.

[Anichkov3]

Before, I often played on servers USE. Ping 140 ms. And you know - I used to play and have fun. 

 

 

 

Me and most of my friends here in Europe plainly don't have fun with a ping over ~120.

We get frustrated.

 

I don't consider playing with a ping of over 120 fun - I'm too used to my 16-20 ping.

 

 

It's not about "not trying to sympathize" as playing with high ping plainly isn't enjoyable for some people.

Most people won't play a game that's supposed to be fun, in a way they don't enjoy.

 

As I said at the beginning. Of course there are people for whom the advantage over other players is more important. And low ping important to them as the air. Otherwise, they just can not play and show good results - that's a fact. Perhaps these people do not possess the skills in the game. Their skill is extremely accurate in the shooting and nothing else ... Is that so?

 

In general. I suggested that the real version of the organization of the match for the players concerned. 

[dorobo]

Oh I would watch that!

[KarlSchlag]

No.

Why?

[Dawn_of_Ash]

Why?

 

Amid's answer was:

 

 

1. Because it would prove very little. There is so much compromise in playing at higher pings that at no point would it be a real test of players skills or capabilities.
2. Every time someone who isn't a comp or top-tier player (and even then sometimes) suggests this it is nothing but a troll or idiotic, pseudo-patriotic regional fuzzy bunny-waving attempt. The past two or three times this has been suggested, the people doing the suggesting have had no capability of performing at a competitive level in terms of skill, experience or teamwork.
3. Priority Target.

 

 

I still do not see the connection with "no real point would it real test of players skills or capabilities." Kind of really not sure of the capabilities considering how capable a player is at adapting to the ping change.

 

As for the two other points, I have no comment to that but you can respond to that as you wish.

Edited by Dawn_of_Ash, 10 November 2015 - 10:22 PM.

[KarlSchlag]

Amid's answer was:

 

 

I still do not see the connection with "no real point would it real test of players skills or capabilities." Kind of really not sure of the capabilities considering how capable a player is at adapting to the ping change.

 

As for the two other points, I have no comment to that but you can respond to that as you wish.

Thanks, but I think he responded to you not me. I was asking WHY Tunngle wouldn't be a solution. I tried it once in Borderlands2 and it worked really good. I was just asking if there is some kind of technical or legal problem with it, except the point that Hawken doesn't support LAN.

 

I see the point in adapting to the higher ping. It would be a challenge, too. But like Formula1 pilots on tricycles, nothing more. A league of its own. :)

[Aregon]

Those who want to try this out can themselves try to work out the logistics needed for it to work.

[Chickin]

Who is Deadman Tim?

[Meraple]

I still do not see the connection with "no real point would it real test of players skills or capabilities." Kind of really not sure of the capabilities considering how capable a player is at adapting to the ping change.

You can't entirely adapt to high ping.
Some are capable of dodging TOWs reactionary at a 45m distance.
Some anticipate the enemy, and dodge a Secondary right before it's fired.
Most high-tiers should be able to do both at a low ping; however those and many other skills and capabilities are rendered nearly moot at high ping.

everyone [...] keeps making more and more events to exclude, rejecting you and ignoring you just because your a minority? What do you think this sounds like?

I know of not a single active event that has a rule that even implies "no Australians allowed".
In that, you're not rejected at all.
If you mean you suggested to play on AU servers in an event of another region and it got refused, as I said, most people don't find it fun to play with high ping; that's rejecting a suggestion (and not you) for reasons stated earlier, and not ignoring.
It sounds like you're exaggerating.

I'm angry at how people ignore minorities of this community because they don't share a similar something-or-other. I know my opinions are not popular and I can accept that. I can even accept that I'm likely not going to play many games without 350+ ping. I cannot accept people outright diss-ing and saying its a bad idea when they have everything (or close to everything) I envy and I want.

You can't accept people disagreeing with what you think they should do?
This "best of EU vs best of NA" idea in the OP doesn't even involve you.
They're other people; it's their choice, not yours.

Perhaps these people do not possess the skills in the game. Their skill is extremely accurate in the shooting and nothing else ... Is that so?

No.


Pretty much did what I could be bothered to do.

[Shoutaxeror]

General consensus is that NA players are the best in the world. There are a few in EU that come close to the NA top 10 (Meraple, DerMax, Kopra) but none I would consider to be solidly in the NA top 10. We will never REALLY know until Josh decides to fly us all to Cali for a LAN ( ?° ?? ?°)

Who is Deadman Tim?

 

Yeah if Merl represents how they see EU people then I would say they have very little (biaised by forum I guess) knowledge about it.

[Sorroritas]

General consensus is that NA players are the best in the world.

#AMERICA!

[Amidatelion]

Ouch.

 

Care to explain why it is troll, idiotic, pseudo-patriotic regional etc, etc? How would you feel if a game had abandoned you and does not help to get you back on your feet and everyone around also refuses to help and keeps making more and more events to exclude, rejecting you and ignoring you just because your a minority? What do you think this sounds like?

 

I'm angry at how people ignore minorities of this community because they don't share a similar something-or-other. I know my opinions are not popular and I can accept that. I can even accept that I'm likely not going to play many games without 350+ ping. I cannot accept people outright diss-ing and saying its a bad idea when they have everything (or close to everything) I envy and I want. Bluntly and without sympathy for those that do suffer because of under-population - problem that is not even caused by them. I again want to ask, what do you think this sounds like?

 

Maybe everyone else knows better than me in this case - as Meraple had said 120 ping is too much for them while I average that on my home-server.

 

But whatever. I'm a minority in this situation and I will be ignored. I'll just accept that as well.

 

Also Amid, care to prove your skill? ;P I'd likely not beat you, but it may be fun.

 

Um, what?

 

Ok, first off, I'm not going to answer that aggressive "what do you think this sounds like" because a) you're making a mountain out of a molehill over it and b) I don't want to know what you think the answer is because I get the feeling there's gonna be a shitstorm over it.

 

None of this is directed at you. It's directed at people like Anichkove and sprinterjam and whoever that wanker from the US was trying to stir up fuzzy bunny between EU and NA, people who magically think that if they just had lower ping they would be able to do better. We're not making events to exclude, reject and ignore you because you're a minority. We're making events for us. It's why PT gets NA players who are cognizant that they are not going to do as well because of ping differences but are welcomed and play enthusiastically regardless. Hell, Crafty used to actively try to get more people from other regions into TPG, there was just not a whole lot of interest. If an AU/Oceania team were to register for the next season you would get a standing ovation, because that's going to take a helluva lot of determination. You are not excluded, there is just no desire to make accomodations for high pings or any effective way of doing so.

 

It's not a bad idea to play Hawken, or any other game at 120+ if you love the game, but there needs to be an understanding that its not going to be exactly the same game as everyone else is playing. And it's not going to be a game that you can play competitively. You cannot effectively bring corner play, accuracy and and useful map information to the table when you are seconds behind everyone. 325 ping doesn't translate to .325 seconds. After the game tries to compensate for that and has sorted out the packet confusion, you're looking at full seconds of difference. Even at 140, the need to lead hitscan weapons leaves you open to being countered by people that don't. The only person east of the Greenwich Mean line playing TPG takes himself off his own team's roster when his ping is too high because of all of this and because it is slightly frustrating for the opposite team to fire at someone who is then teleported 20 meters away.

 

A tournament is about winning by skill, first and foremost. If you have fun, great. But the point is a test of skill. Can you test that skill with high ping?

 

"No."

 

And sure. I'll be free this weekend. What's the time difference?

 

 

Thanks, but I think he responded to you not me. I was asking WHY Tunngle wouldn't be a solution. I tried it once in Borderlands2 and it worked really good. I was just asking if there is some kind of technical or legal problem with it, except the point that Hawken doesn't support LAN.

 

I see the point in adapting to the higher ping. It would be a challenge, too. But like Formula1 pilots on tricycles, nothing more. A league of its own. :)

 

Because the way Hawken is set up right now it cannot support LAN. There are no client-side server builds. I guess that's a technical problem?

 

 

Yeah if Merl represents how they see EU people then I would say they have very little (biaised by forum I guess) knowledge about it.

 

Sure, could be. But the only NA vs EU that was done at a rigorous, high level was Merl vs Dermax and I believe Merl came out ahead. Until these high level players (on both sides) want to come together and organize a series best-ofs in EU and NA (the only effective way of doing it) that's the only hard information we have. And I don't think anyone wants to tackle that logistical nightmare right now.

[Anichkov3]

 

Um

.......

 

 

 

I just proposed a variant of the organization. Why do you suddenly think equal opponents Merl and Dermax? Because he has a famous name, and he participated in many places? Perhaps you did not guessed that there are very strong players who simply do not participate in all of these "staging tournaments," and did not even attend this forum....

 

 (KDR) KarlSchlag.    Why do you think that games Ping greatly reduced when playing on the LAN? After all, this is not the players will be in the next room. Players will remain in the same place - on the other side of the planet. 

 

 

P.S. I began to notice that the forum more and more are not even considered the idea of a constructive point of view. 

Edited by Anichkov3, 11 November 2015 - 04:25 AM.

[DerMax]

We will never REALLY know until Josh decides to fly us all to Cali for a LAN ( ?° ?? ?°)

Not gon happen. Ever.

[KarlSchlag]

-snip-

 (KDR) KarlSchlag.    Why do you think that games Ping greatly reduced when playing on the LAN? After all, this is not the players will be in the next room. Players will remain in the same place - on the other side of the planet. 

 

 

P.S. I began to notice that the forum more and more are not even considered the idea of a constructive point of view. 

 

The program "Tunngle" (information here: http://www.tunngle.net/en/ ) makes it possible to set up a LAN network globally, if the game provides a LAN mode, which Hawken does not at the moment. As far as I know this program creates a direct connection between players, without any servers. Not really sure HOW it works, but it worked fine with Borderlands2 for me. 

 

 I was just curious if and why not Hawken will have a LAN mode in future. But as I am not very competent in computer thingies, it may sound like a stupid proposal to some people. 

 

and Merl: 

 

 

We will never REALLY know until Josh decides to fly us all to Cali for a LAN ( ?° ?? ?°)

 

It is, if correctly spelled: Karlifornia (that is btw a Karlauer)

Edited by (KDR) KarlSchlag, 11 November 2015 - 08:04 AM.

[Erzunterweltler]

Before, I often played on servers USE. Ping 140 ms. And you know - I used to play and have fun. 

 

Otherwise, they just can not play and show good results - that's a fact. Perhaps these people do not possess the skills in the game. Their skill is extremely accurate in the shooting and nothing else ... Is that so?

 

Bold statement for an unmitigated Seeketeer main, who doesn't have to care about Ping anyway...

[Anichkov3]

Bold statement for an unmitigated Seeketeer main, who doesn't have to care about Ping anyway...

Wow! We have already begun to move to the "personality". It's amazing how narrow worldview of some people ... I have long noticed. What if people here do not play as his interlocutor (the same mechs), then it is cause for reproach. 

 

In my gaming experience can be no doubt. This know perfectly well the players in Europe and USA. Certainly not the players who are playing TDM or MA. But those players who play in Siege.

 

Judging by the majority of comments - I was right in my first message.

 

People who refuse to smooth in terms of ping of the match, only one. Demonstrate unwillingness to lose the advantage over other players (very low ping).

 

 

Moderator, you can close the topic. For anybody of anything is essentially is not write.

[n3onfx]

[Chickin]

Not gon happen. Ever.

 You gon edit that or what?

[Dawn_of_Ash]

 

Um, what?

 

Ok, first off, I'm not going to answer that aggressive "what do you think this sounds like" because a) you're making a mountain out of a molehill over it and b) I don't want to know what you think the answer is because I get the feeling there's gonna be a shitstorm over it.

 

None of this is directed at you. It's directed at people like Anichkove and sprinterjam and whoever that wanker from the US was trying to stir up fuzzy bunny between EU and NA, people who magically think that if they just had lower ping they would be able to do better. We're not making events to exclude, reject and ignore you because you're a minority. We're making events for us. It's why PT gets NA players who are cognizant that they are not going to do as well because of ping differences but are welcomed and play enthusiastically regardless. Hell, Crafty used to actively try to get more people from other regions into TPG, there was just not a whole lot of interest. If an AU/Oceania team were to register for the next season you would get a standing ovation, because that's going to take a helluva lot of determination. You are not excluded, there is just no desire to make accomodations for high pings or any effective way of doing so.

 

It's not a bad idea to play Hawken, or any other game at 120+ if you love the game, but there needs to be an understanding that its not going to be exactly the same game as everyone else is playing. And it's not going to be a game that you can play competitively. You cannot effectively bring corner play, accuracy and and useful map information to the table when you are seconds behind everyone. 325 ping doesn't translate to .325 seconds. After the game tries to compensate for that and has sorted out the packet confusion, you're looking at full seconds of difference. Even at 140, the need to lead hitscan weapons leaves you open to being countered by people that don't. The only person east of the Greenwich Mean line playing TPG takes himself off his own team's roster when his ping is too high because of all of this and because it is slightly frustrating for the opposite team to fire at someone who is then teleported 20 meters away.

 

A tournament is about winning by skill, first and foremost. If you have fun, great. But the point is a test of skill. Can you test that skill with high ping?

 

"No."

 

And sure. I'll be free this weekend. What's the time difference?

 

 

Look after taking a break off the forums and considering what I did say, I've noticed that I am making a mountain of frustration over something very little. However, with a subject like this one when someone just answers a blunt answer to something I feel could work, I just get emotional about it. It's the same deal with the Tuning System which I have been told is a bad idea. When I first head of it, I thought it was good but then people kept giving blunt answers that did not contribute to the conversation at all. I know it may be for humour's sake sometimes, but the fact that people are completely shutting down an idea a person has thought, and possibly put some effort into, with a blunt word and not a regard for someone else has made me unsure to ever post any of my ideas onto this forum in the fear that people would respond to it in the aforementioned way.

 

As I have stated before, this forum has become a dark place.

 

About the actual subject however, I really don't know why I had responded in such an aggressive way and I want to appologize. I never knew any of this history between the OP and his actions/how others view him. When you did state your point Amid, I thought you were referring to me and my inner raging child came out.

 

I still disagree with you however in the regard of the event, although I think it is plain to see that either region is not interested so let's just end the discussion here.

 

As for timing Amid, I normally consider America 12-hours behind Australia, however I think you guys have different time-zones so it may be different for you and me.

[crockrocket]

The point of a tournament (in my mind anyway, perhaps some more competitive players would disagree) would be to have fun and play some matches with people you normally don't. That being said, such opportunities do already exist, any of us are welcome to hop onto another regions servers when we feel like it. Besides that, I do see some cross-regional play at events like WW and PT, so I would say that for the time being the need for such an event is satisfied.