62 replies to this topic

[Sokram]

For me its kinda uncomfortable to operate T-32 and  some other charge weapons.  Holding m1 pressed really mess up with my aim...

 

And i just cant get used to "fire on release" trigger type. 

 

 

I suggest an option called "Automatic charge" .  

 

  It will just swap M1 pressed/released positions  when you begin match with such weapon equipped.

  That way game will think that M1 is held when its released and vice versa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeeRax]

I love the way the charged weapons work, and using them, especially the t-32, was one of the main things that actually improved my aim when I first started. I think an autocharge function would really mess up their playstyle. As long as it's optional, I guess that'd be OK... (I'd never use it, personally).

[Sokram]

I love the way the charged weapons work, and using them, especially the t-32, was one of the main things that actually improved my aim when I first started. I think an autocharge function would really mess up their playstyle. As long as it's optional, I guess that'd be OK... (I'd never use it, personally).

 

Its option. And a very simple one to implement.  If you dont like it or dont need it...Just go away duh. It doesnt affect your playstyle and love for charged weapons in any way.

[Sorroritas]

You can also achieve auto charging using .ini modifications as mentioned here:

 

 

Under [HawkenGame.R_PlayerInput]

 

Default primary fire command;

 

Bindings=(Name="GBA_Fire",Command="StartFire | OnRelease StopFire",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

 

 

Just reverse it;

 

Bindings=(Name="GBA_Fire",Command="StopFire | OnRelease StartFire",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

 

If you want to have both normal mode / auto charge on demand, set it under something like hover and bind hover directly to spacebar.

That way you can bind mouse1 in options to "hover" and it does whatever you have bound in that alias.

 

(https://community.pl...-fixed/?p=66157)

Edited by Sorroritas, 19 November 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[DeeRax]

Its option. And a very simple one to implement.  If you dont like it or dont need it...Just go away duh. It doesnt affect your playstyle and love for charged weapons in any way.

 

My post originally included "Hey, if you don't like the way those weapons work, don't use them." But I took that out of my post because I thought it'd be rude.
Funny.

 

Edited by (TDM) DeeRax, 20 November 2015 - 02:18 AM.

[Aelita]

It is hard to use for anyone. I thought that IS the cool thing about it. Not a friend of manipulated scripts in general (caughs*cheat*caughs).

Same challenge for all, i say! Learning such a skill would be that challenge.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I really enjoy the charged weapons. I prefer Bolt, Heat, EOC and Breacher because of the way they work.

Edited by Pleasure_Mortar, 19 November 2015 - 06:32 AM.

[nepacaka]

You can also achieve auto charging using .ini modifications as mentioned here:

 

(https://community.pl...-fixed/?p=66157)

it is good, but...
many people don't know how use config, or change it. etc.

it is not be a problem, if ordinary player who "just play in game" can switchs weapon mode in menu. like a "double tap" to dodge/boost. i think 90% not use this, but probably other 10% can find it a more better to moving in fight.

it is just a question of comfortable play. not very hard added one another option with script in game menu, but high win for players comfort.

Sokram not first who ask about it, and you know it.

[StubbornPuppet]

cough

[PoopSlinger]

Something about it does'nt seem right. I say no.

[Aelita]

I really enjoy the charged weapons. I prefer Bolt, Heat, EOC and Breacher because of the way they work.

 

Breacher is mah jam, my jelly, my peanutbutter and my peanuts.

[Sokram]

It is hard to use for anyone. I thought that IS the cool thing about it. Not a friend of manipulated scripts in general (caughs*cheat*caughs).

Same challenge for all, i say! Learning such a skill would be that challenge.

 

Do you realise that people are different? Some benefit from that mechanic. Some not.    

 

DeeRax - benefit.

Sokram - not.

 

 Cheating? You serious? Tinfoilhat?   Adjusting control layouts to make it more comfy to use is cheating?   You know...Increasing FOV and Reducind Cockpit lag can be called cheating too. 

[Odinous]

I really enjoy the charged weapons. I prefer Bolt, Heat, EOC and Breacher because of the way they work.

while i do love em,it was always bothering me keeping left mouse button pressed all the time while hunting with my predator,worst case scenario?i had to leave mouse for any reason for just a sec and boom spotted..

If its an option i dont mind,i would probably use it though.

Edited by Odinous, 19 November 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[GreyFa1con]

It is hard to use for anyone. I thought that IS the cool thing about it. Not a friend of manipulated scripts in general (caughs*cheat*caughs).
Same challenge for all, i say! Learning such a skill would be that challenge.

I could script this pretty easily.

Was also thinking about making a Shift+W blocker script.

[maxajcd]

You can also achieve auto charging using .ini modifications as mentioned here:

 

(https://community.pl...-fixed/?p=66157)

does this work?, also can u still use uncharged shots?

[Aelita]

Do you realise that people are different? Some benefit from that mechanic. Some not.    

 

DeeRax - benefit.

Sokram - not.

 

 Cheating? You serious? Tinfoilhat?   Adjusting control layouts to make it more comfy to use is cheating?   You know...Increasing FOV and Reducind Cockpit lag can be called cheating too. 

 

I hated shoot-on-release weapons, allways did. But i learned to use it. Still not perfect a it. But in a Game that has no new stuff for years now i am glad i have something to improve. FOV is changeable in the menu, for everyone to see. No reason to be dismissive btw.

Edited by Aelita, 19 November 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[nepacaka]

FOV is changeable in the menu, for everyone to see. No reason to be dismissive btw.

 

he probably talking about old time when you can made a 120+ FOV. and increased camera distance to far away when you repair your mech. it is really was a little cheating.

 

also, if you can change shooting method in menu, it can't be a cheating. because you can use the same shooting method like a sacram. it is totally legal. if you want, you use ?1, if not - use ?2. as you wish.

Edited by nepacaka, 19 November 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Flifang]

I like how hard the t-32 hits. I don't like how it just decides it doesn't want to hit. Having what in my opinion is the most random spread in the game and one of the quickest damage falloffs along with that finicky mechanic that requires you to hold the button while you boost if you want to get a quick shot off with it after making a maneuver of sorts and not always re-firing on cooldown makes it frustrating at times.

[-Tj-]

It's pretty much what Aelita is saying: the way the weapon works and its difficulty is part of what makes it what it is. If you change the way it works, it's no longer the same weapon.

 

You're basically asking to put an "easy mode" on weapons that you feel are challenging to use. It's like asking Capcom to change Guile's charge-based moves to something that isn't charged based because you can't get used to it. That would change the character, wouldn't it?

 

The point is, if you change the way the weapon works, you change it's character.

[nepacaka]

You're basically asking to put an "easy mode" on weapons that you feel are challenging to use.

 

about "easy mode". it is really so bad for game?

let me explain on current movement mechanic. all good pilots know about boost+dodge technique, which allow you to move faster. this technique is not so "obvious" and required a some skill. many people can't use (or don't want use, cuz it is a little ugly always moving like a crab :P)

 

so, newbie/ordinary players not use it, but some pilots use, and gain an advantage in speed.

it is good, or no?
i think it is bad. because movement system now gain an advantage for some players, and make their movements not fair, if comparison with people who just use boost and walking as a "default" movement mechanics, like it was planned by game-design in pre-ascension Hawken.

it is hard to understand, hard to use, and illogical.

i don't think it is a really good way to create a game. and hawken have so many not obvious mechanics. maybe this is why the game not very popular (+ many other factors, sure. but this is one of them!). Just right now Hawken is not the game for "ordinary player". and it is bad in my opinion.

easy-to-use, hard-for-mastery. Or even easy-to-use, easy-to-mastery. But not hard-to-use, nightmare-to-mastery.

obviously, hawken have a problem with population. so, maybe we need remake it in another way? and make game more fun and easy. Sometimes i play with heat, but, it is not fun, like a flak, for example.
 

it allows me to relax more when i play on my Flak/SA brawler. but when i play on heat-gren or heat-rockee, the game keeps me in tension. i should concentrate more, because i need press more button, hold button, remember button...mwaaah!!! sometimes it is just make me mad. and those flyings a-class which a big problem for EOC or Heat (if you are not 2.5k player. Be frank, people with a rating below 1900 are not able to play with heat, and have a big problems with flying mechs and AC. it is just true. they can have some fun when play with Heat, but not be effective at all.)

[Odinous]

You're basically asking to put an "easy mode" on weapons that you feel are challenging to use. 

Its not an easy mode,cause for example with breacher i wont need charged shots all the time except one.But i do hate the fact that i am forced to keep my mouse button down for mins sometimes..

[GreyFa1con]

Its not an easy mode,cause for example with breacher i wont need charged shots all the time except one.But i do hate the fact that i am forced to keep my mouse button down for mins sometimes..

Muscle cramps = Skill

Apparently.

[nepacaka]

previously, we know pre-ascension Hawken as a "game in which noone fly", because if you do, u ded. and heat-cannon was a good weapon. mech walking more slowly, and only boost/dodge can safe ur ass.

now Hawken gameplay highly changed. air-combat is here. you can use dodge as you want, and fuel is not a problem. game mechanics and fight is totally changed, but Heat-cannon - not. it is a weapon which designed for beta-hawken. but now is new time, and Heat-cannon just a pre-historic dinosaur. sustain weapon can kill you in 3-4 second, but heat cannon required about 10-15 sec and corner-play to kill someone. the same with EOC.
nothing bad to remake heat-cannon for faster ascention gameplay.

just look at dis! it is not current hawken. heat-cannon was created for this, not for ascension.

 

Edited by nepacaka, 19 November 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[ticklemyiguana]

A lot of the arguments here are silly but they're being compounded by the fact that some of you are being rude. Stop it.

[PoopSlinger]

just look at dis! it is not current hawken. heat-cannon was created for this, not for ascension.

 

The heat cannon is still a very usable weapon.  Its extremely frustrating to play against someone who can heat scout or infil good.

[nepacaka]

A lot of the arguments here are silly but they're being compounded by the fact that some of you are being rude. Stop it.

 

if i be rude, sorry, i don't want it. but this weapon really hard for many people to be effective.
i agree, heat is very usable weapon like Poopslinger say, but it is much more hard to use if compared with beta-hawken.

[GreyFa1con]

if i be rude, sorry, i don't want it. but this weapon really hard for many people to be effective.
i agree, heat is very usable weapon like Poopslinger say, but it is much more hard to use if compared with beta-hawken.

Tell you what, I'll code up a toggle script for it tonight.

[ticklemyiguana]

if i be rude, sorry, i don't want it. but this weapon really hard for many people to be effective.

Actually I think I was a bit inaccurate in the scope my judgment, though it wasn't aimed at you to begin with. I just feel a bit rushed at the moment and applied the wrong tone to the thread. (I don't think it's stuff that would translate very well anyway.)

 

Carry on.

Edited by ticklemyiguana, 19 November 2015 - 01:45 PM.

[nepacaka]

i swap star/stop buttons in config and play in bot-training.
now i don't want play with Heat/EOC without config. it is just so much better.

thx silent_ for this Brilliant Idea. it just babajied too much. now i actually not hate eoc and heat, and my hand not tired so much while match.
i just click RMB, and it is working! magnificent!
just try guys, and you probably change your opinion.

Edited by nepacaka, 19 November 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[maxajcd]

i swap star/stop buttons in config and play in bot-training.
now i don't want play with Heat/EOC without config. it is just so much better.

thx silent_ for this Brilliant Idea. it just babajied too much. now i actually not hate eoc and heat, and my hand not tired so much while match.
i just click RMB, and it is working! magnificent!
just try guys, and you probably change your opinion.

i couldn't get it to work :(

[BIsmuthZornisse]

You can also achieve auto charging using .ini modifications as mentioned here:

 

(https://community.pl...-fixed/?p=66157)

i'm probably being stupid here, but which ini file specifically? i'd like a filename, so that i can try this out.

[maxajcd]

i'm probably being stupid here, but which ini file specifically? i'd like a filename, so that i can try this out.

it seems to be in DefaultInput under config but when i changed it nothing happened

Edited by maxajcd, 20 November 2015 - 02:34 PM.

[Silent_]

HawkenInput.ini

 

To have both normal and reversed fire available without restarting game / changing ini, just set that bind under alias you dont ever need to rebind.

 

ie. bind reversed fire to ability alias and then bind ability directly to key. This way ability works normally but if you bind left mouse button to ability in menu, it works now with autocharge.

 

EDIT; proper explanation in nepas plastic hawken thread.

Edited by Silent_, 20 November 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[nepacaka]

EDIT; proper explanation in nepas plastic hawken thread.

https://community.pl...sty/#entry70513

[BIsmuthZornisse]

HawkenInput.ini

 

To have both normal and reversed fire available without restarting game / changing ini, just set that bind under alias you dont ever need to rebind.

 

ie. bind reversed fire to ability alias and then bind ability directly to key. This way ability works normally but if you bind left mouse button to ability in menu, it works now with autocharge.

 

EDIT; proper explanation in nepas plastic hawken thread.

 

 

https://community.pl...sty/#entry70513

 

Thanks, works like a charm!

[-Tj-]

i swap star/stop buttons in config and play in bot-training.
now i don't want play with Heat/EOC without config. it is just so much better.

thx silent_ for this Brilliant Idea. it just babajied too much. now i actually not hate eoc and heat, and my hand not tired so much while match.
i just click RMB, and it is working! magnificent!
just try guys, and you probably change your opinion.

Not one to knock it before I try it, I decided to try it... but I don't like it. :P

 

No doubt it's partly because I'm not used to it, but the main reason is it throws off the way every weapon works. It was kind of ok when using Heat Cannon, but once I switched to Vulcan, the weapon would continuously fire and only stop when I held the trigger. If you're trying to avoid finger cramps, this is not the way.

 

 

 

about "easy mode". it is really so bad for game?

let me explain on current movement mechanic. all good pilots know about boost+dodge technique, which allow you to move faster. this technique is not so "obvious" and required a some skill. many people can't use (or don't want use, cuz it is a little ugly always moving like a crab :P)

 

so, newbie/ordinary players not use it, but some pilots use, and gain an advantage in speed.

it is good, or no?
i think it is bad. because movement system now gain an advantage for some players, and make their movements not fair, if comparison with people who just use boost and walking as a "default" movement mechanics, like it was planned by game-design in pre-ascension Hawken.

it is hard to understand, hard to use, and illogical.

i don't think it is a really good way to create a game. and hawken have so many not obvious mechanics. maybe this is why the game not very popular (+ many other factors, sure. but this is one of them!). Just right now Hawken is not the game for "ordinary player". and it is bad in my opinion.

easy-to-use, hard-for-mastery. Or even easy-to-use, easy-to-mastery. But not hard-to-use, nightmare-to-mastery.

 

A lot of what you're talking about is defined as skill in the game. It's things players have to learn in order to become "good" at it. Yes, many players don't know about certain little tricks that can one-up players who don't, but those kinds of things can be learned, and they add longevity to the game by giving the player more things to learn and master over time.

 

We already have plenty of "easy mode" weapons for players to use. In fact, every hitscan weapon in the game requires only that the player place their crosshairs over a target, adjust for ping, and press a button. They don't even need to adjust for recoil or projectile travel speed and time. It's quite literally point and click. Additionally, all the weapons that have the ability to charge shots don't require that the player hold the mouse button down to fire, or even to be effective, except for maybe the Breacher. And in certain cases, it's even better to not keep the weapon charged (for example, the HEAT Cannon is noisy, and not effective for stealthy attacks when sneaking around).

 

The charge-based weapons aren't necessarily all that difficult to use, either. Holding the button to charge it and releasing to fire comes with practice. The problem most people will have with them is landing shots with them these weapons, which will also come with practice. It's far from a "nightmare," and except for the Breacher and the T-32, none of the charge-based weapons are default weapons, which means players aren't even forced to use them. Even the T-32 is arguable, because the only mech it's on by default is the G2 Raider, which you can only get by taking the Raider to rank 6.

 

If making the game easier to play for new players is your concern, adding a different way to control firing the same weapon is not the way to do it.

 

obviously, hawken have a problem with population. so, maybe we need remake it in another way? and make game more fun and easy. Sometimes i play with heat, but, it is not fun, like a flak, for example.

 

it allows me to relax more when i play on my Flak/SA brawler. but when i play on heat-gren or heat-rockee, the game keeps me in tension. i should concentrate more, because i need press more button, hold button, remember button...mwaaah!!! sometimes it is just make me mad. and those flyings a-class which a big problem for EOC or Heat (if you are not 2.5k player. Be frank, people with a rating below 1900 are not able to play with heat, and have a big problems with flying mechs and AC. it is just true. they can have some fun when play with Heat, but not be effective at all.)

 

I don't think the population problem has anything to do with having to hold the fire button to charge a weapon and release to fire. The problem is likely more that new players don't have enough new or low-level players to square off against, and the game doesn't do enough to teach new players how to play the game. There are a lot of vets who love this game (like me) and can't stop playing, and we inevitably get stuck into matches with these new players. Some of us try to go easy on these guys, sometimes even giving advice along the way, but others don't give a damn and just go full-on try hard mode against them.

 

Hawken is a competitive game, and it won't appeal to everyone. Doing so will change what the game is. It would be great if we could have a campaign mode where players can get a feel for the game before jumping into the VS modes, but that's unlikely to happen. The current VR training, while it looks cool, doesn't do enough to prepare a fresh player for actual combat. The old training mode actually made more sense, and felt better for the game. They really should have continued development on that version instead of spending the resources to make the current one.

 

That extra concentration you feel when playing EOC or HEAT Cannon, that still hasn't gone away for me, not even after more than half my total play time being spent in HEAT/EOC Infils. I actually find the extra concentration required to use them fun. It does take less concentration over time and with practice, when that concentration starts to become instinct. These weapons are more difficult than the point-and-shoot types, and probably for good reason: they're powerful, but only if you know how to use them well, and even then they're not always the most effective weapons for a given situation.

 

If players below 1900 MMR have difficulty playing with the HEAT Cannon, they should probably just not use it. That's right, I said it. But not because I'm trying to be elitist. I'm saying that because even for me there are weapons I can't use well, and I tend to just not use them. Not all weapons will appeal to everyone, neither will all mechs. But if there's a weapon that someone really thinks looks cool or wants to learn, then I say practice with it till it starts to feel natural, take the losses as they come, because they will come. Don't request to change the way a weapon works just because you have a hard time using it. It took me a while to become proficient with the HEAT Cannon, and even longer with the EOC.I still have difficulty with the Breacher, but that's because I haven't forced myself to practice with it more. I've even mentioned in another thread that I've developed a kind of "Hawken arthritis" in my index finger because I play charge-based weapons so much.

 

Anyway, I feel like I'm repeating myself. Also, here's an alternative to try:

 

https://www.highrez....ttonControl.htm

 

Apparently you can make the mouse buttons sticky, so you click once to hold, then click again to release. I haven't tried it, but who knows? It might work for you.

[nepacaka]

I don't think the population problem has anything to do with having to hold the fire button to charge a weapon and release to fire.

 

it is one of the many other reasons. it's called "comfort".

 

The problem is likely more that new players don't have enough new or low-level players to square off against, and the game doesn't do enough to teach new players how to play the game.

 

well, maybe not need create a hard-used weapon? it is obviously that in any game 90% of population not "elite", i'm play like ordinary player, why i can't play easy?
For example quake3. every weapon in quake easy. aim -> press LMB. q3 = competitive game.
but Hard-to-use weapon != competitve.
Hard-to-use weapon = uncomfortable fuzzy bunny.
 

Apparently you can make the mouse buttons sticky, so you click once to hold, then click again to release. I haven't tried it, but who knows? It might work for you.

 

autocharge working x2 times better, cuz you need press mouse button x2 times less.

 

i don't see a problem if game options have a 2 variants:
- modern mechanics for chargable weapons (auto)

- old mechanics for chargable weapons (manual)

i already test it in game. it working very good. much better and easy than default system.

play with heat now is more fun.

now i no need be highly concentrated, just need aim and shoot, like if i use railgun.

and all weapon "skill" features is still here. you still need look at the charge-meter, radar, think about noisy, and think in wich place you want shoot.


 

Yes, many players don't know about certain little tricks

 

Because it is not obvious game mechanics. to say more easy, thing like "boost+dodge" it is just a bad game design, and bugs, caused by ascension. it is not a little tricks.

Edited by nepacaka, 21 November 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[CraftyDus]

If you need charging a primary automated for you, I will consider you void of any skill.
And lacking any merit of respect as a player.

[Kopra]

If you need charging a primary automated for you, I will consider you void of any skill.
And lacking any merit of respect as a player.

Which one is harder:

juggling

or

juggling while yelling out the decimals of pi?

The answer is the latter, but does yelling out numbers bring any real value to the talent of juggling?

I would see something like holding a button to be an arbitrary challenge, not relevant to the game balance.
What about people who bind keys differently for comfort? Is switching from WASD to ESDF cheating because you get more buttons around your movement keys?

If a game mechanic is circumventable by a rebound key or a simple script, chances are it's a bad game mechanic to balance around. Especially with things like CTS considered, this is like complaining about people using dandruff shampoo to clean their hair because regular shampoo makes them spread the Christmas spirit.

[6ixxer]

 this is like complaining about people using dandruff shampoo to clean their hair because regular shampoo makes them spread the Christmas spirit.

 

Dude, your scalp isn't hardcore enough. I only play with people who use caffeine shampoo... or pour energy drinks on their head.