62 replies to this topic

[6ixxer]

I use a joystick cos i'm fuzzy bunny at WASD. Have I lost all respect? Do you think I am worthless as a player?

 

Heres a hint: IDGAF what people think about my controls. I just like to play.

 

I'm gona try auto-charge. Cos why not.

[CraftyDus]

I guess manually charging a primary is too difficult for a some people, as well as having to click for each shot and aiming, and movement, and switching weapons, and items and scoping, and on, and on, and on.

At the end of the day you're faking what it takes for the player who learned how to do it and doesn't require the automating training wheels.

Whatever it takes to pretend you can hang, yuck.

[MomOw]

Make it easier

 

[nepacaka]

You made so much tragedy from this. This option don't made your aim/skill better.

[Pleasure_Mortar]

I just don't understand why people can't accept that some weapons require a different technique.

IMO there should be even more variety in how the weapons work so when you decide to use a certain weapon you don't just have to learn how to aim but also how to fire it.  

[eth0]

What about games where you have the option to toggle or hold crouch? Or toggle or hold scope? Or using "startheal" so I can type while healing instead of holding the repair key? Now it's got me thinking, would turret mode be more skillful if I had to hold F while using it?

 

Not trying to give anyone a bad time or say what's what, just some thoughts as I ponder how much I would enjoy the option of toggle charging. I still have to decide when I want to charge a shot or just fire and there's a trade-off of using toggle versus hold.

No toggle: click to fire and hold to charge.
Toggle: Double click to fire and click to charge(?)

 

If an ini edit to accomplish this is unethical then I'd rather start there than the toggle-vs-hold discussion.

[nepacaka]

Now it's got me thinking, would turret mode be more skillful if I had to hold F while using it?

 

lol :D

also, in game exist "double-tap to dodge" option, which is totally uncomfortable for me to use (but maybe someone like use double-tap to dodge?). it is actually really hard to always use double tap when you walking. use shift+dodge more easy. So, use double tap instead shift, because shift to dodge it is not hard. "not hard - not skill".

Edited by nepacaka, 23 November 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[MomOw]

hold+release weapons seems to be on purpose, thought a bit uncomfortable to use. Maybe an option for auto charge could make them easier and more beginner friendly.

 

Now the real deal is to manage to use air 180° smoothly   

[StubbornPuppet]

If everyone used my control scheme, nobody would be talking about problems with charge and release weapons, dodging or 180°. ;P

[6ixxer]

I don't care whether <1% of players think i'm not good enough. I'm never going to play them.

Doing things the hard way so you can e-peen how good you are doesn't impress me either.

 

I won't tell everyone to use a joystick because I find it better, but my brother struggled with WASD, borrowed my joystick and suddenly he liked playing Hawken. Maybe I didn't emphasise that enough. CHANGING CONTROLS MADE A PERSON LIKE HAWKEN ENOUGH TO STAY [/point]. Also to spend money for that matter.

 

People enjoying the game and growing the player base is more important than <1% saying you have no skill. If I could spend the same amount of time playing then I would get to a higher level, but I have a job and a family and my rare playtime i'd rather be having fun.

 

If players get a better experience then i'm all for it, You keep doing it your way and being self important.

[maxajcd]

Tell you what, I'll code up a toggle script for it tonight.

did you ever make this? i'd like to try it out :P

[6ixxer]

There is a config so that in Hawken in-game bindings you can bind Mouse1 to shoot (for non-charge weapon mechs) and to Taunt (for charge weapon mechs). They made some voodoo so J still works normally.

 

You need to swap this binding yourself every time when you swap mechs which TBH makes it too cumbersome for me to deal with. I often change mech mid game from burst to sustain or vice-versa.

 

So it looks like Crafty gets his way regardless. I'm all for ease of use, but unless Reloaded makes it an in game feature that toggles charge weapons only, I'll stick with the standard mechanic.

Edited by 6ixxer, 23 November 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[nepacaka]

but unless Reloaded makes it an in game feature

 

it have a very small chance to be... never implemented

 

 

I actually play a little more with autocharge today. i trying to ranked my third rocketeer with EOC. i play against scouts and suicidal-berserks today. nothing changed. they shred me in pieces if catch. still very hard to lay puck in flying target with compressor. absolutely. nothing. change.

Edited by nepacaka, 23 November 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[Sokram]

^ Yep. It changes freaking nothing.  

 

Skill in this game is not about how and when you charge your weapon....Its ability to HIT with it.  

 

My precision with FLAK and T-32 is very same.  Just FLAK is more finger friendly. 

 

 

 

Btw....FLAK does almost same damage as charged T-32 ( 102 vs 120).  

 

 All those who say "You deserve no respect with that autocharge" ....What about FLAK users? Do they also deserve no respect?   Because FLAK IS AUTOCHARGING AND FASTER T-32. FACE IT.

 

 

[CraftyDus]

Use flak then, and nobody will level derision for phoning in "skill"

 

If charging is harder for you with the bolt over the flak, admit to yourself that you haven't the skill rather than automating it because it's too difficult for you to learn.

 

And if you are one that enjoys running around scripting things like charging weapons, making semi-auto into auto, auto scoping, etc; don't think for a second you are any where near as skilled as those who do not.

[nepacaka]

auto scoping

 

auto-scoping is a really cheat, cuz it zoom in/zoom out faster than people can do it if press manually with human react. auto charge don't let you weapon charging faster or something else.

also, how about added a script which change your mouse sensitivity when you use sabot zoom? it is cheating too? i on't think so. it is just make this weapon comfortable to use. and it is good.
not a secret that Sabot rifle is very uncomfortable weapon (because sens). especially if you don't have a mouse which cost 80$.

for example, i use very cheap mouse, and it is just impossible shoot in zoom mode, because my crosshair twitching so much. but it is just devs fault that they not added an option to defferent sensitivity.

When you play in Quake 3, you can bind different sensitivity in .cfg for different weapon, your Rocket can have 10 sens, but your Rail have only 5, and 3 if zoomed... and it is not restricted by official tournament rules. because it makes game more comfortable for every player. game defects do not interfere the players to show their skills.

 

 

Crafty, you really should try it before you burn witches at the stake. And you very fast realize that actually nothing changed for these weapons with autocharging in terms of gameplay. Just try.

Edited by nepacaka, 24 November 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[Kopra]

Use flak then, and nobody will level derision for phoning in "skill"

If charging is harder for you with the bolt over the flak, admit to yourself that you haven't the skill rather than automating it because it's too difficult for you to learn.

And if you are one that enjoys running around scripting things like charging weapons, making semi-auto into auto, auto scoping, etc; don't think for a second you are any where near as skilled as those who do not.

If something is bypassed by scripting and a script proves to be more efficient than manual control, it's a bad skill mechanic to be balanced around. Rocket jump scripts, bunny hopping scripts etc. are most often much worse than manual control with muscle memory and hand-eye coordination applied.

I hit more when I click SA Hawkins shots as if it were semi-auto as opposed to just holding it, which is exactly the opposite of the AM-SAR scripting "issue". The reality is that it's a matter of preference, just like sensitivity or FOV. Succumbing to the default settings means either that the devs did something that you like (if so, good for you!), or that you don't have the information on how to change it.

Calling holding a button a skill mechanic that seperates good players from bad ones is really "euphoric" (video related, kind of) and really undervalues the actual skillful mechanics Hawken has to offer. It's like calling yourself a chess guru just because you know how each piece moves on the board and take great pride in this information. Holding a button IS A GIVEN. Knowing how the pieces move IS A GIVEN. I hope you don't plan your games around your opponents not knowing how to move a chess piece or not knowing how to hold a button with a finger.

Edited by (KDR) Kopra, 24 November 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[GreyFa1con]

Anyways, yes it is less skillful.

But it's also annoying and less fun for the majority of players.

I see no harm in using it in pubs.

Main difference to me is that click-down = attack.

I've got years is muscle memory built into that. 65% accuracy on TOWs.

Even if it were uncharged, I'd still prefer heat cannon with click-down = attack.

Ultimately, Fun > Raw Skill.

[DM30]

Use flak then, and nobody will level derision for phoning in "skill"

 

If charging is harder for you with the bolt over the flak, admit to yourself that you haven't the skill rather than automating it because it's too difficult for you to learn.

 

And if you are one that enjoys running around scripting things like charging weapons, making semi-auto into auto, auto scoping, etc; don't think for a second you are any where near as skilled as those who do not.

 

I'm sorry, but what?

 

Since when is holding a button considered a significant measure of skill? Is it somehow harder to aim and track a target while pressing down with an index finger? Brand new players in their Assaults have been doing this with their hitscan sustain primaries from day one in the game, so I'm having a really hard time believing this. Having the weapon charge by itself doesn't remove any of the skill requirements for predicting a target's movement, leading an airborne mech or compensating for latency. It doesn't magically make the weapon more effective, it just means your finger doesn't get as tired using it.

 

Calling someone unskilled for automating charge weapons strikes me as being the same as calling an SS main unskilled for re-binding weapon utility to a thumb button instead of MMB. Clearly quick-scoping using the middle button requires more dexterity than using a thumb and keeping both fingers on the firing buttons at all times. Does this mean all of the game's top Sharpshooters use the default weapon utility bind, because otherwise they would be looked down upon for using an easier setup?

 

I can see people making an argument that removing the manual charge would take some of the character away from the weapons since you're less involved in the process. If this option were added, I would still use manual charging for this reason. But claiming that holding a button down demonstrates greater skill is just laughable to me.

[Massive_Assailant_Stingray]

It's pretty much what Aelita is saying: the way the weapon works and its difficulty is part of what makes it what it is. If you change the way it works, it's no longer the same weapon.

 

 

I disagree.

 

I think the hold to charge is just the easiest implemented, and most natural control scheme for facilitating that weapon mechanic.

 

I kind of doubt the idea that "letting go of a mouse button takes more,or a different kind of skill, than clicking a mouse button" ever was even a passing fancy in the mind of people who make these types of guns.

 

Fortress Forever has a few hold to charge mechanics, and I use two tap functionality for all of them. I click once to start charging, click again to fire. The idea, as Crafty would suggest, that this is some serious affront to the sanctity of skilled gaming is laughable at best. That's like calling me a has-been for binding my rocket launcher to mouse 4, because real skill comes from giving up the ability to strafe in a certain direction while switching weapons.

 

Configing is all about comfort, and accessibility. There are exceptional players out there who could maintain absolute dominance with a stock config. Yet they still tweak for comfort, absolutely milking configurability to it's last drop. Xhairs, fovs, huds, disabling weapon models, lego graphics for visibility. Sure there's a fine line, but in my opinion, 2-tap charging doesn't cross it.

 

(Nobody tell crafty about that time in TFC I bound all my movement keys to reload.)

[nepacaka]

Actually, early I use something like "muscle memory" for heat, I mean, I'm hold finger about a second and then shoot. I never look on left charge-meter on my crosshair.
With autocharge I should look when weapon is charging, because now I not count it with my finger. I don't know how to explain it better. But it is how it work. Early I never look at meter, now I look.

[Flifang]

Please fix the delay to refire the t-32 when not repeatedly charging. Please fix the bug that causes the weapon to autofire spam when I'm firing it repeatedly at an opponent but no longer when I'm pressing the fire key. Please fix the bug that will randomly cancel my charge I'm holding on my t-32 and cause the spam bug afterward making me a massive radar blip even for a few moments as I take my entire mouse hand away from my desk in dismay. Thank you.

[crockrocket]

I don't see this in particular being a problem. For one thing it's completely impractical given it's effect on sustain, and arguably it miutely lowers your reaction time given that you have to click instead of just releasing.

Tl;dr I see this as a preference thing not an outright advantage.