96 replies to this topic

[Silent_]

Heh.

 

Can you elaborate on where specifically this change needs to be made in the ini?

 

Under [HawkenGame.R_PlayerInput]

 

Default primary fire command;

 

Bindings=(Name="GBA_Fire",Command="StartFire | OnRelease StopFire",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

 

 

Just reverse it;

 

Bindings=(Name="GBA_Fire",Command="StopFire | OnRelease StartFire",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

 

 

It is that simple and yet people dont know how to do it? ;/

 

 

 

If you want to have both normal mode / auto charge on demand, set it under something like hover and bind hover directly to spacebar.

That way you can bind mouse1 in options to "hover" and it does whatever you have bound in that alias.

Edited by Silent_, 22 October 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[JeffMagnum]

I don't get where all the anti-SS sentiment here is coming from? Obviously I have an interest in not seeing it nerfed unnecessarily since it's my favorite mech, but from over 20k kills with it in its current balance iteration, I can unbiasedly say it's in a good spot balance-wise. 

 

Brackets is also right in saying that it's easier to hit with remote-det weapons even for the best SS users in the game--the most accurate players have Slug and Sabot accuracy at roughly 60% and TOW and GL at around 70%.

[_incitatus]

 

Under [HawkenGame.R_PlayerInput]

 

Default primary fire command;

 

Bindings=(Name="GBA_Fire",Command="StartFire | OnRelease StopFire",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

 

 

Just reverse it;

 

Bindings=(Name="GBA_Fire",Command="StopFire | OnRelease StartFire",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

 

 

It is that simple and yet people dont know how to do it? ;/

 

 

 

If you want to have both normal mode / auto charge on demand, set it under something like hover and bind hover directly to spacebar.

That way you can bind mouse1 in options to "hover" and it does whatever you have bound in that alias.

 

 

My old man hands thank you.

[Nept]

I don't get where all the anti-SS sentiment here is coming from? Obviously I have an interest in not seeing it nerfed unnecessarily since it's my favorite mech, but from over 20k kills with it in its current balance iteration, I can unbiasedly say it's in a good spot balance-wise. 

 

Brackets is also right in saying that it's easier to hit with remote-det weapons even for the best SS users in the game--the most accurate players have Slug and Sabot accuracy at roughly 60% and TOW and GL at around 70%.

 

Let's watch Nepa give us a master class on point and click.  Go on, Nepa!

[nepacaka]

TOW never deal full damage with air-det. It deal around 50 damage. And make a direct hit from tow is almost impossible if you stand far than 50-60m. Rocket flight slow. You can hit someone, but your enemy have a change to evade rocket, or evade half of damage (or even more). Sabot always deal full 110 damage if you hit someone. 99% times you stand close to enemy than 320m, so, falloff is actually never working, and damage not changed.
You can deal high stabile damage and be far from enemy, stay in low risk zone.

[Nept]

Still waiting on that point and click video, bro.

[CrimsonKaim]

Hitscan, hitscan, hitscan, hitscan. 

 

Why don't we have lasers if we have hitscan?

[nepacaka]

Let's watch Nepa give us a master class on point and click. Go on, Nepa!

Lol, I play with high ping, and use a old ball-mouse. This is why I use flak! (actually not, just because I use shotguns in every game which I play :D)
But I play on SS in beta, when SS have a high damage and high spread even in scope, and it was not bad, mostly you can miss if stand so far, on middle distance it accuracy was good.

I tell that I don't want a nerf, just think than current way to balance it very stupid, and not very fair with other secondaries. If you increase damage and DPS, is not actually a nerf. SS can be better from mid-range and in CQC, but also will be a little worse from very far distance, and can miss if you stay in safety zone so far. It actually a buff SS on middle range. With very small chance to miss. And most of time you never shoot from very far distance, because many map don't have this distances. Maybe only some places on LostEco and bridge on FLine.
I don't understand, why you not understand this :D

Maybe I say something wrong, I don't know. I just dislike it because it ruined one of the main hawken features, and falloff affect almost not working on this weapon. It is bad.

[nepacaka]

Still waiting on that point and click video, bro.

Last comment in this thread.
https://community.pl...h-idea-charger/
Just right now I use mobile for talking, I even not have my fuzzing google-translate. Because mobile internet is sux! And I don't understand nothing in mobiles :P

[JeffMagnum]

I tell that I don't want a nerf, just think than current way to balance it very stupid, and not very fair with other secondaries. If you increase damage and DPS, is not actually a nerf. SS can be better from mid-range and in CQC, but also will be a little worse from very far distance, and can miss if you stay in safety zone so far. It actually a buff SS on middle range. With very small chance to miss. And most of time you never shoot from very far distance, because many map don't have this distances. Maybe only some places on LostEco and bridge on FLine.
I don't understand, why you not understand this :D

Maybe I say something wrong, I don't know. I just dislike it because it ruined one of the main hawken features, and falloff affect almost not working on this weapon. It is bad.

 

Regardless of how you spin it, what you're proposing would be a massive nerf.

 

Here's the start of your proposed falloff

 

Here's one of the most frequent engagements on the Prosk bridge, especially when the match first starts

 

At that distance with your changes, Slug and Sabot would be past their max falloff range and have a total of 77 damage with a shot group approximately the size of a B-Class. 

 

In this other common situation, Slug and Sabot would do 77 damage and have a shot group well over the size of the C-Class hitbox

 

This valuable firing lane and the similar one farther down that goes to the other side of the AA would be useless

 

I planned on walking around and picking another few places from other maps to show you, but literally almost every frequently-made SS-specific shot would be rendered impossible by your falloff and spread values. Front Line in particular would be absolutely unplayable. 

Edited by JeffMagnum, 22 October 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[nepacaka]

Jeffmagnum, ok, maybe i should increase falloff range.

[WillyW]

WillW, what bad in #2? It is stupid now, when someone stand on your head, and can shoot in you, but you can shoot in him, because can't look up?

 

Increase weapon spread when flying, and it will make being above other mechs and shooting down less effective without harming the current meta.

The air mechanic is very important to keep. But it is somewhat unrealistic that you barely lose any accuracy from it.

[JeffMagnum]

Jeffmagnum, ok, maybe i should increase falloff range.

 

It's going to be an issue regardless of your stat modifications though. Either it'll be functionally the same as it is now or useless depending on the distance. 

[Draigun]

Also the timing in terms of shifting from no scope to scope should be reduced. That and significantly reducing removing the SABOT/KE-SABOT spread un-scoped should be the only changes for the SS/Reaper. If the game is steering (which it technically already is) in the direction of a lower TTK, then these changes would make sense anyway.

 

It's ridiculous to land CQC shots with the SABOT that's based entirely on a set of randomized values. Getting a luck shot is far from true skill. The spread range is too high to reproduce consistent results at a certain amount of meters. If there are compromises that have to show with such changes, then adjust the SABOT in such a way that generously hands out somewhat consistent shots within a certain amount of distance.

 

There exists classes that can achieve decent META within a reasonably flexible margin. The SS is certainly one of the classes that is on the lower end in terms of how it can deal with each different situation. It's quite possibly the lowest due to the variability of mech movement and amount of cover in the game, which for obvious reasons, makes it a bit difficult to snipe effectively. Compensation for this fact lies within the changes to how scoping/un-scoping works mechanically, and reevaluating the leniency that the current, randomized SABOT hit/miss system hands out.

Edited by Draigun, 22 October 2015 - 10:36 PM.

[-Tj-]

 

10: How many players use this? I don't think I've ever used it on any of my setups. Just feels like there are better internals to use in its place.

* doesn't matter how many players use it. It working bad, it is good tactic for zerg-rush in solo random, or in 1v1. Sometimes for ololo-raiders, or c-class.
You throw three orb, fight, than death, and you came even more stronger in next time, and reload your items. It is bad.


19: Not a good idea. Automatically charging HEAT cannon would make the weapon detectable audibly everywhere. It's better being able to charge it on demand. EOC builds heat faster if fired fully-charged. Like EOC, I prefer to keep it charged and fire on demand.

*as someone above say, it can be like option. But actually many people don't love with these weapons, it just hard to use. Easy to use - hard to mastery. That how it should be. But not, hard to use - hard to mastery.
+ you know how this weapon hard against flying targets, devs should make something with this too, because gameplay meta was changed, but these weapon not. Thear weapons are dinosaurs in hawken, and should be upgraded for new flying combat.

 

 

I don't understand why anyone feels having to hold a button to charge a weapon makes it difficult to use. You can still fire the weapon without charging it, and if it were to auto-charge after every shot, you risk losing your rhythm, especially since the HC fires a faster projectile at full charge. Even having an option to keep it charged doesn't make sense to me, since you lose the weapon's 'charge to fire' characteristic. It would be like changing certain Street Fighter characters' charge-based moves to a single button press.

 

It's fine if people don't love to use the weapons simply because they don't want to hold the button to charge it. HC has always been one of the more difficult weapons to master, but it isn't as difficult to use as you seem to feel it is. EOC, on the other hand, is difficult to use and master, but that's the way I feel it should be, especially how borderline OP it can be when used with the right combination of weapons. Making either one auto-charge won't make either "easy to use" at all, it will just remove some pressure you have to put on the mouse button and will remove the inherent training that comes with having to keep that button pressed when using the weapon.

 

EOC and HC are both hard to hit targets in the air, but that's what makes learning and mastering the weapon so rewarding. I've actually been able to land all six pucks on airborne targets, and though it doesn't happen often, the feeling is rewarding. I don't like the idea of trying to easy mode a weapon that's inherently difficult to use and master.

 

Regarding the Composite Armor internal, good point.

[Nept]

Also the timing in terms of shifting from no scope to scope should be reduced. That and significantly reducing removing the SABOT/KE-SABOT spread un-scoped should be the only changes for the SS/Reaper. If the game is steering (which it technically already is) in the direction of a lower TTK, then these changes would make sense anyway.

 

It's ridiculous to land CQC shots with the SABOT that's based entirely on a set of randomized values. Getting a luck shot is far from true skill. The spread range is too high to reproduce consistent results at a certain amount of meters. If there are compromises that have to show with such changes, then adjust the SABOT in such a way that generously hands out somewhat consistent shots within a certain amount of distance.

 

See, I don't actually mind that because it forces quickscoping (or a slower variant of it) at medium-close ranges.  I find that adds to the skill ceiling.  On the other hand, it's significantly harder than what any other mech has to do.

[JeffMagnum]

Also the timing in terms of shifting from no scope to scope should be reduced. That and significantly reducing removing the SABOT/KE-SABOT spread un-scoped should be the only changes for the SS/Reaper. If the game is steering (which it technically already is) in the direction of a lower TTK, then these changes would make sense anyway.

 

It's ridiculous to land CQC shots with the SABOT that's based entirely on a set of randomized values. Getting a luck shot is far from true skill. The spread range is too high to reproduce consistent results at a certain amount of meters. If there are compromises that have to show with such changes, then adjust the SABOT in such a way that generously hands out somewhat consistent shots within a certain amount of distance.

 

There exists classes that can achieve decent META within a reasonably flexible margin. The SS is certainly one of the classes that is on the lower end in terms of how it can deal with each different situation. It's quite possibly the lowest due to the variability of mech movement and amount of cover in the game, which for obvious reasons, makes it a bit difficult to snipe effectively. Compensation for this fact lies within the changes to how scoping/un-scoping works mechanically, and reevaluating the leniency that the current, randomized SABOT hit/miss system hands out.

 

I don't think it needs to be buffed to that extent, and tbh this change just sounds like a way to make the mech easier for people who don't want to put in effort learning its nuances. SS is plenty versatile after you get down the quickscope timing as long as you know how to exploit your strengths and avoid situations where you have to out-DPS people at close range without cover--I use it in DM on every map and never have any issues doing well against top players except for maybe on Uptown. No-scoped shots can be pretty useful despite their huge RNG spread if you recognize their limitations and get a feel for the approximate ranges at which shots stop being guaranteed hits against the different hitboxes. 

 

edit: nept beat me to it with way less words

Edited by JeffMagnum, 23 October 2015 - 12:12 AM.

[Nept]

REKT

[nepacaka]

Jeff, How about new variant?

What if falloff will be working in another way? I trying to Make it more "smooth". whereby reducing the damage of the bullet starting is very early, but the fall of the damage begin is very slow, and starting lose firepower mostly in the end of path.

Sabot Rifle Spread – 8
Sabot Rifle Spread Unscoped – 1.1

 

Sabot Rifle damage – 115  (110 current)
Sabot Rifle Unscoped damage – 92  (88 current)

Min scoped damage – 70  (75 current)

Min unscoped damage – 55  (60 current)

Heat generation - 9.25  (11.25 current)

start.Fallof – 150m
end.Fallof – 430m

 

Falloff damage curves for scoped sabot:

0-150m = 115 damage

150-200m = 113

200-250m = 111

250-300m = 109

300-320m = 105 (320m previously falloff start value, 110 damage early)

320-340m = 99

360-380m = 92

380-400m = 81

400-430m = 70

 

 

Falloff damage curves for Unscoped sabot:

0-150m = 92 damage

150-200m = 90

200-250m = 88

250-300m = 86

300-320m = 82 (88 early value)

320-340m = 75

360-380m = 69

380-400m = 62

400-430m = 55

 

damage new/old:
0-150m = 115 now/ 110 early

300-320m = 105 now/ 110 early

400-430m = 70 now/ ~79-80 early

450-"Infinity" m = 70 now/ 75 early

 

close range damage is now higher by 5.

on 320 meters sabot scoped damage is almost equal (110 early, 105 now).

damage on very very far distance (400-430m) now decreased by ~10

maximal falloff distance also decreased from 450m to 430m

 

heat generation is also decrease, so, damage before overheat will be increased, and actually you can make more shots in total, you gain 5-10 damage nerf from maximal distance, but have a 1-2 additional shots (it is actually plus ~100-200 damage), i suppose it is actually good.

 

Unscoped damage also is higher on close distance, and lower on far distance.

 

in total, i suppose it is not actually a nerf. what do you think?

[Nept]

Honest to goodness, I don't know why you're upset with the Sharpshooter. 

 

There are like 5 people who can use the thing competently across North America. 

 

It has the lowest DPS in the game. 

 

It has the lowest armour of any B class.

 

To be effective in CQC and mid-range combat, you need to hit every single shot. 

 

It requires more mechanical skill than any other mech, and is completely unforgiving.  You don't get soft-aim remote detonation, and you don't get forgiving sustained.

 

 

 

Stop trying to change it.  If you're going to insist on changing it, buff it.

[nepacaka]

I don't know why you're upset with the Sharpshooter.

 

it seems wrong to me that sabot and slug have 0 spread. i preffer added more damage to get spread back. maybe even 125 for sabot (and buff some damage for slug too)

 

Stop trying to change it.  If you're going to insist on changing it, buff it.

 

i buff it, added moar damage to cqc, and dps.
deal high damage from safety zone it is not good in my opinion. when you stay at 200+ meters actually only brawler with SA, reaper or another SS can make something with you. any other ballistic secondary can't hit you, so compare tow slowpoke rockets with mid-air and sabot is not very effective.

Edited by nepacaka, 23 October 2015 - 02:43 AM.

[Nept]

The Sabot has a ton of unscoped spread.  If it had scoped spread, it would make for a terrible sniper.  The Slug has no spread because it's an accuracy-based weapon: the balance/difficulty comes from its (relatively) long reload time, from its poor damage, and from having to precisely aim every shot.  When you're using other mechs and their weapons, you have remote detonation and/or massive splash on your secondary, and (excepting EOC's and REV-GL) a shotgun or sustained weapon as your primary.  In other words, the aiming process is much more forgiving.  Either you're shooting a shotgun (which isn't hard) or you're shooting tons of bullets at an enemy.  It's not a big deal if you miss a bullet or two since 20 more are on their way.

 

Shotguns have spread because they're shotguns.  Sustained weapons have spread because developers want to limit their effectiveness at long ranges.  Sniper rifles don't have spread because they're supposed to be effective at long ranges.  They're balanced by their low DPS and their mechanical skill requirements - requirements which Hawken compounds with its zoom features and their effects on damage and accuracy.

 

Put simply, snipers don't have (scoped) spread because they're a different weapon type than shotguns and auto/rapid-fire semi-auto rifles.  Adding spread because the other weapons have spread makes no sense from a game balance or game design perspective. You may as well argue for random spread on TOW's and GL's.

 

*Edit* Here's the reason Sharpshooter nerf threads annoy me.  Every single person who has suggested nerfs within the past two years has been goddamn abysmal with the class.  Every.  Single.  One.  If you're going to claim ease-of-use, then you had better be prepared to prove your case.  On top of that, if the class were overpowered - in any way - you would see more than FIVE COMPETENT NA-BASED SHARPSHOOTERS.  They're so goddamned rare that I recruited Devotion based entirely on the fact that he could Sharpshoot well.

Edited by Nept: Ultra Lord of the God-Kings, 23 October 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[nepacaka]

The Sabot has a ton of unscoped spread.  If it had scoped spread

 

i decreased it to 8 in my list. 1.1 scoped spread, it is actually very very small, it have a chance to miss on very far distance, notning change for you if you shoot from optimal distance. SA have 1.8 and it actually very good accuracy

 

Put simply, snipers don't have (scoped) spread

 

ok, but why slug don't have a unscoped spread?

 

Adding spread because the other weapons have spread makes no sense from a game balance or game design perspective.

 

ok. but i can't agree with this. it like delete something or nerf damage just because we don't know how balance it in another way.

Edited by nepacaka, 23 October 2015 - 03:07 AM.

[Nept]

It shouldn't be missing at distance.  It is a sniper rifle.

[nepacaka]

Every single person who has suggested nerfs within the past two years has been goddamn abysmal with the class

 

every person who think incinerator is normal/weak mech also play on it like nubs, and what?

[crockrocket]

So Nepa put forth a shitload of suggestions. Debating his sharpie shite is fine, but for everyone else who's less sharpie-centric don't forget that there's more to this post. Especially since Nepa clearly put some work in. 

[Draco3]

oh one to add.  Fix the T32-bolt.  Worst weapon in the game.  As a primary for the G2 Raider it is weak (glitching with other weapons makes the g2 raider semi-layable).

[nepacaka]

So Nepa put forth a shitload of suggestions. Debating his sharpie shite is fine, but for everyone else who's less sharpie-centric don't forget that there's more to this post. Especially since Nepa clearly put some work in. 

well, it was a constructive discussion, i made whole conception for slug-SS later, and improve it a little than previous conception. just required some time to typing all of it.

 

It shouldn't be missing at distance.  It is a sniper rifle.

 

to be honest, in real life sniper rifle have many factors which working on bullet, and sniper rifle have spread (+recoil, wind, gravity)
if sniper/killer really want to kill his target, most of time he shoot from +/- 200 meters to guaranteed kill. if sniper shoot from very far distance, they can miss. it's working good only in films.

but in game we don't have gravity, recoil and wind, so you can only simulate it with spread.

if Sabot rifle get a ballistic (it can be a straight line bullet with 600-700m bullet speed), i agree with 0 spread

Edited by nepacaka, 23 October 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[crockrocket]

well, it was a constructive discussion, i made whole conception for slug-SS later, and improve it a little than previous conception. just required some time to typing all of it.

 

I didn't have a problem with the SS discussion and it was productive, I was just reminding everyone else that there were other points to the OP

[devotion]

i heard that this is where the ss circlejerk was at, who's got the biscuit

[nepacaka]

Version N2
all wishes of discussing people was examined, and added into new and better SS concept. (more or less)

some text probably is hard to read, but it have enough numbers to understand.

I trying to Make falloff more "smooth". whereby reducing the damage of the bullet starting is very early, but the fall of the damage begin is very slow, and starting lose firepower mostly in the end of path.

 

Sabot changes:

 

Sabot Rifle Spread (Scoped) – 0.5
Sabot Rifle Spread (Unscoped) – 7

 

Sabot Rifle damage – 120  (110 current)
Sabot Rifle Unscoped damage – 102  (88 current)

Min scoped damage – 70  (75 current)

Min unscoped damage – 55  (60 current)

Heat generation - 9.25  (11.25 current)

start.Fallof – 150m (320 current)
end.Fallof – 430m (450 current)

 

Falloff damage curves for scoped sabot:

0-150m = 120 damage

150-200m = 116

200-250m = 112

250-300m = 109

300-320m = 105 (320m previously falloff start value, 110 damage early)

320-340m = 99

360-380m = 92

380-400m = 81

400-430m = 70

 

Falloff damage curves for Unscoped sabot:

0-150m = 102 damage

150-200m = 94

200-250m = 88

250-300m = 86

300-320m = 82 (88 early value)

320-340m = 75

360-380m = 69

380-400m = 62

400-430m = 55

 

damage new/old:
0-150m = 120 now/ 110 early

300-320m = 105 now/ 110 early

400-430m = 70 now/ ~79-80 early

450-"Infinity" m = 70 now/ 75 early

 

close range damage is now higher by 10.

on 320 meters sabot scoped damage is almost equal (110 early, 105 now).

damage on very very far distance (400-430m) now decreased by ~10

maximal falloff distance also decreased from 450m to 430m

 

heat generation is also decrease, so, damage before overheat will be increased, and actually you can make more shots in total, you gain 5-10 damage nerf from maximal distance, but have a 1-2 additional shots (it is actually plus ~100-200 damage), i suppose it is actually good.

 

 

Slug changes:

 

Slug Rifle Spread (Scoped) – 0.6
Slug Rifle Spread (Unscoped) – 1.4

 

Slug Rifle damage – 67  (60 current)
Slug Rifle Unscoped damage – 62  (57 current)

Min scoped damage – 43  (40 current)

Min unscoped damage – 41  (38 current)

Heat generation - 7.0  (7.25 current)

start.Fallof – 230m (260 current)
end.Fallof – 390m

 

Falloff damage curves for scoped Slug:

0-230m = 67 damage

230-260m = 65(current falloff start, 60 dmg early)

260-280m = 63

280-300m = 60

300-320m = 57

320-340m = 54

340-365m = 50

365-390m = 43

 

Falloff damage curves for Unscoped Slug:

0-230m = 62

230-260m = 61 (current falloff start, 57 dmg early)

260-280m = 60

280-300m = 59

300-320m = 56

320-340m = 53

340-365m = 49

365-390m = 41

 

Clearly see that optimal distance for shoot is about ~300m. On this distance you damage equal curren SS in game. On distance closer than 300m you gain buff in DPS and damge. on distance more far than 300m, you dps dropped (+ you can miss, actually 0.6-0.7 value will guaranteed you a hit from mid-range distances, but not when you stand on base and trying to shoot)

 

Now, DPS numbers

 

Before:
Ideal DPS before falloff 260m:

DPS Sabot+Slug = 39.6+52.17 = 88.84

DPS Unscoped = 29.3+49.57 = 78.87

 

far than 480m:

min DPS Sabot+Slug = 25+34.78 = 59.78

min DPS Unscoped = 20+33.07 = 53.07

 

After:

Ideal DPS before sabot start falloff (150m):

DPS Sabot+Slug = 36.67+58.29 = 94.96

DPS Unscoped = 33.66+53.94 = 87.6

 

250-260m distance DPS:

DPS Sabot+Slug = 36.3+56.55 = 92.85

DPS Unscoped = 29.04+53.07 = 82.11

 

300-320m distance DPS:

min DPS Sabot+Slug = 34.65+49.59 = 84.24

min DPS Unscoped = 27.06+48.72 = 75.78

 

far than 430m:

min DPS Sabot+Slug = 23.1+37.41 = 60.51

min DPS Unscoped = 18.15+35.67 = 53.82

 

 

What we have in total?
- SS have more DPS and deal more damage on distance close than 260m. it is most effective range on most of maps.
- SS deal a slightly less damage (-4 dps) on 320m (probably, 320m +/- equal the full prosk bridge lenght)

- SS dps and damage start highly decreased after 320+ meters.
- Heat generation is more effective, and allow him make a several additional shots before overheat, his total potencial damage will be highly increased. it compensate some damage for you miss due by spread (but actually with 0.6-0.7 spread you not miss since 200-250m, it is very small value).

- sabot is very better accuracy without scope now. better for cqc (if compared with current values)

 

Changes in gameplay, Now SS have effective range around 200-320m (twice more than every other mech), and even more effective in close combat or 1vs1, if someone sneak to SS. because his damage higher, and overheat less.
But he is worse about 20-25% if shoot from very far distances (higher than 350-400m, which actually is a half of map distance)

for example, if SS trying to shoot from Origin statement to AA, it wiil be around ~300m.

 

Edited by nepacaka, 23 October 2015 - 06:22 AM.

[_incitatus]

I don't understand why anyone feels having to hold a button to charge a weapon makes it difficult to use. You can still fire the weapon without charging it, and if it were to auto-charge after every shot, you risk losing your rhythm, especially since the HC fires a faster projectile at full charge. Even having an option to keep it charged doesn't make sense to me, since you lose the weapon's 'charge to fire' characteristic. It would be like changing certain Street Fighter characters' charge-based moves to a single button press.

It's fine if people don't love to use the weapons simply because they don't want to hold the button to charge it.

It's not that I think it would make it easier to use "skill-wise", I can't "physically" hold the charge down on the EOC for more than a couple matches without my hand cramping and nerve pain flaring up in my arm. It actually hurts to play it.

Same with the AM-SAR, why that thing isn't auto fire is beyond me.

As for HEAT and EOC, if auto charge was on a toggle it would be perfect. Or even if it just stayed charged once it was fully charged, that would help a lot.

[-Tj-]

Funny enough, I feel your pain. Quite literally. Having been playing Hawken for just about three years straight now, my index finger has developed a kind of arthritis or something in my joints that comes and goes. More than likely, because I've never played an FPS so religiously as Hawken, I never grew an FPS trigger finger. But even though I really want to keep playing the game, if it causes me too much pain I know it's time to take a break from it. Either that, or it's time for a different mouse.

 

You could also try something like this:

 

https://www.highrez....ttonControl.htm

 

I read a little bit about it, it has the ability to activate "click drag" mode, aka "sticky keys." I assume you press once to keep it pressed, press again to release. It might be worth a try. :)

[nepacaka]

Also, #1 mech which really a "hand destroyer" it is inci with papa. Hand is very tired if you press LMB and RMB whole match to not overheat. Maximum 1-2 matches, and your hand is die :D

[Nept]

Time for everyone to bust out the fingertip pushups.

[CounterlogicMan]

 

i heard that this is where the ss circlejerk was at, who's got the biscuit

 

TopKek I heard my fellow top tier snipers were forming The Circle of Several Sabots in a forum thread. I came as quick as I could.

 

You do have some good, and some interesting suggestion Nepacaka. However, I do disagree with your suggestions for the SS I do not think you fully appreciate how hard it is to play SS against good players.  Not playing just against good SS, but against an entire team of people who are good and know how to deal with SS.As individuals, and as a team.

 

And I am just trying to convey, as some others are trying (I think). That from playing, not as long as you, but against the best players in Hawken as SS for a long time. That SS is good were it is at balance wise given the current meta of the game.

 

 

Just to give you a little better a glimpse into our world.

 

Jeff is not kidding when he says you gotta be able to hit them..."when they poke out only by a few pixels". Many times while you are also moving/flying through the air/sometimes mid air dodge (you not them...well sometimes both). Cause that is one of the only opportunities you will get. And if you do find someone you can snipe at in the open, usually as they are re positioning or assaulting a position, You have enough time, on average, for a slug + sabot + slug + slug + MAYBE JUST MAYBE another sabot before you have several TOWs hurdling at your face. Or a scout or assault or some fuzzy bunny up your ass. Oh yeah and there is always another top tier SS trying to melt you with a power at all times, constantly calling out were you are, constantly trying to re position so he can KILL YOU SPECIFICALLY.

 

Yeah, I know that grammar is really bad. But sometimes I see suggestions for SS balance on the forums that are so woefully inaccurate  that I have to just hit it with that extra punch....as fast as I can...and hope it just explodes into pieces. (puns fully intended)

 

 

I don't get where all the anti-SS sentiment here is coming from? Obviously I have an interest in not seeing it nerfed unnecessarily since it's my favorite mech, but from over 20k kills with it in its current balance iteration, I can unbiasedly say it's in a good spot balance-wise. 

 

Brackets is also right in saying that it's easier to hit with remote-det weapons even for the best SS users in the game--the most accurate players have Slug and Sabot accuracy at roughly 60% and TOW and GL at around 70%.

 

 

Honest to goodness, I don't know why you're upset with the Sharpshooter. 

 

There are like 5 people who can use the thing competently across North America. 

 

It has the lowest DPS in the game. 

 

It has the lowest armour of any B class.

 

To be effective in CQC and mid-range combat, you need to hit every single shot. 

 

It requires more mechanical skill than any other mech, and is completely unforgiving.  You don't get soft-aim remote detonation, and you don't get forgiving sustained.

 

 

 

Stop trying to change it.  If you're going to insist on changing it, buff it.

 

All this shade being thrown at SS (pretty much all the time in Hawken, since a long time). SS has been through a rollercoaster ride of nerfs/buffs, finally arriving us in this current iteration. Which actually feels really balanced from a competitive perspective. Which I think explains why top tier SS players are quick to come to the defense of the SS in any thread that hints at nerfing it. 

 

 

 

 

Nepacaka, I like your suggestion for EOC because it shows thinking outside the box of just pure numbers on the weapon. You take into consideration the players ability to utilize the weapon versus its power compared to other weapons usability and power. Which I think sums up some of the more troublesome balance issues in Hawken. To which I think this particular topic of game balance attributes much of the steam to the, "Hawken has a low skill ceilling" argument. It is not easy to explain through text but it encapsulates much of the debate about this weapon/mech being too easy/effective compared to this otherweapon/mech. 

 

 

First some definitions to clarify what I, and the following video, are referring to in the context of balancing for player skill. 

"objects" - an object in the game that a player interacts with

"skill" - the amount of effort required to make a tactic viable. It can be broken down by skill required to be viable at the low level, mid level, and top level of players.

"power" - the impact that the object has on game play, from the perspective of the player.

 

 

Too much focus on balancing the "objects" that the "skill" & "power" balance of the "objects" are neglected. Leading to a less engaging multiplayer experience that results in most players using object A that gives a huge pay off in power for not a lot of skill. Then forgoing object B.  Because object B is balanced when compared object A, when just going off numbers, but when comparing skill required to use A to result in its viable power and skill required to use object B to result in its viable power. The two objects are unbalanced.

 

The video explains it better than me.....

 

 

 

I believe I will be making a full thread just for this topic of balancing for player skill in Hawken. I find balancing for player skill to be one of the most interesting topics in game design.

Edited by CounterlogicMan, 23 October 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[nepacaka]

And I am just trying to convey, as some others are trying (I think). That from playing, not as long as you, but against the best players in Hawken as SS for a long time. That SS is good were it is at balance wise given the current meta of the game.

 

i'm personally think, that whole ascesion should be changed, it contain a lot of broken thing. and every time when ADH trying to fix one thing, they broken another two thing. i'm just not happy with this. also, i don't have problems with SS while playing, i just think about alternative balance and how it should/may be.
i don't like than devs just deleted some features from game in every next patch, instead trying to balance it.

 

The video explains it better than me.....

 

no. because i don't know english :D
lol. ok. i lie. i know a little, but not all the time i can understand all what other people say. reading is more easy to me than use my ears to understand =)

 

Which I think explains why top tier SS players are quick to come to the defense of the SS in any thread that hints at nerfing it.

 

last version of SS suggestion not look like nerf me, he gain more damage and DPS from optimal fighting distance, on which they fight 90% of time, with cost a super-little spread on very very far distance. well, if you think it is a nerf...

 

 

edit: added ?23. some thoughts about CoBD

Edited by nepacaka, 24 October 2015 - 12:31 AM.

[Sylhiri]

Same with the AM-SAR, why that thing isn't auto fire is beyond me.

 

AM-SAR actually broke my gaming mouse with the amount of clicking it required. It was a shitty mouse but still, never had the desire to use it again with my new mice.

[HugeGuts]

4. Weapon spread while flying.

 

This is a good change. If flying makes it harder for ground mechs to hit flying targets, especially dual projectile mechs, then flying should make it harder for flying mechs to hit ground targets.

[Source_Mystic]

WHAT I WANT FIXED IS SIMPLE , 

 

1 in game voip for everyone ( is this ever going to happen? )

 

2 fix hellfires they are a uneffective weapon.

 

3 fix rocketeers ablity ditch the turet mode and give him a missel utility.   This could let you spam more missels or do more aoe or let you target two players for a specified time... somthiong man rockteer is dieing and is not use because it is broke.

 

4 fix the brawlers ablity 60% dammage reduction for two seconds is the dumest abilty in the game if it is only for two seconds it sould be 100% or change it to somthing more defencive.

 

5 emps should not be a catch all item   they have no counter at the momet excep dodge they should not be able to tak down a sheild and the  mech inside it should just colapse  the sheild and not effect the mech inside since it was protected by the sheild.

 

6 fix reapers ablity so that is it viable make  it increse the range of all weapons when active not dammage mind you but acceracy and range.

 

7. add heat to smg vulcan and assult rifel whay you say you can spam the entireyly too long witch makes sustained stronger than burst and for less heat. this is wrong espically when weapons like eoc have travel time and are not hit scan. the second reason this needs to be done is to create spaces where burst weapons can shine. People would have to decide if and when to spam thise weapons. i do not think dps needs to be affected added heat would fo it.

 

 

7 nerf the assult and crt ablity mak it 50 percent heat reduction insted of 100 %

 

8 Give back the incineraters 300 damage stopm ablity you nerfed it down to 150 witch make is use less if i have to charge up my heat  all the way I  should get get the 300

 

 

I want bigger maps and you already have them manny of us have been out side wreakage and 90 % of the work is already done all you have to do is open up a wall hear or there fill the space with objects that are already in the haken code and poof a 24 man server the LAzy way  theses maps are huge whay have you not done this ????

Edited by Source_Mystic, 27 October 2015 - 03:07 PM.